How can we fix the male/female direct/indirect communication gap?

[AmandaYVR]

Just talking things out. No need for things to get heated.

No doubt about it, men and women have a definite preference for how they communicate.

My understanding of what men want:
1. You wish women would be more direct, say what they mean, feel, and want.
2. By not doing this, you feel it sets up men as being expected to guess what she wants/expects, and to be mind-readers.
3. This indirectness makes you crazy. You believe it creates unnecessary confusion, chaos, and anger.
4. You want women to be more straightforward and forthright like men because you believe male society deal with issues more directly, quickly, and moves past them, without holding grudges as long or as intense.
5. You want to know what the expectations are, and then you will decide whether you can meet them or not.
6. If you care about her, you want to make her happy. You don't mind being told/asked, as long as it is done nicely.

These are my theories why women do not want to be more direct:
1. They don't want to be seen as demanding or nagging.
2. They think you will think their expectations of you and the relationship are too high and unrealistic.
3. Ideally they want the idea or gesture to come from you, as it will mean more if it was not prompted.
4. If they ask you or tell you what they want, and you don't do it or want to eventually do it, it will be disappointing, depressing, or a point of contention and future confrontation.
5. They would prefer to get their way/preference, but know not every battle is worth fighting, and as they realize it is a preference, not a need, it's not worth getting into conflict over.
6. They think you will say they are acting like your mother, and they also want to be just your partner, not a reminder of an overbearing or controlling past parent figure.


Agree/disagree?

Given all this, what can/could be done?

Aww, so happy.

Also somewhat related:
Girls, why when men ask, 'What's wrong?' do you say, "Nothing"?

Updates

+1 y

Is this your indirect way of saying something about me?

[chadpattan]

Okay. I think you're missing one - a very important one - on the MALE side and one - a very important one - on the FEMALE side.

[1] Guys want women to be straight up because if they're not straight up, the guy is taking all the risk that when you do make a move, you'll get accused of something. Sexual harassment, rape, molestation, whatever. It's rolling dice what the underlying motivation is. Or just embarrassed for your troubles.

Both men AND women know it's true and I said it all the time when I was 18 and even now I believe it: women have WAY less risk of getting rejected by a guy than a guy has getting rejected by a girl. So the notion that a guy should make the first move is fine, if the girl has given clear signs and isn't playing games.

Unfortunately...

[2] Girls seem to want male friends more than actual dating. They want the benefits of male companionship without the risk associated and without limiting themselves to one guy and possibly missing on (see that other question elsewhere) Prince Charming coming along.

I've had literally HUNDREDS of women where we perfectly got along, we spent tons of time together, where they approached me first, they asked me to go out somewhere with them when they had plenty of other dudes they could have asked. But then, if I talk about next level/next steps, all of a sudden it's foreign to them - the notion of dating was never in their book, they might even stop responding completely.

One of my closest female friends from childhood, who I spent more time with than probably anybody else at that school, completely shut me out after I shyly asked her out one time and even now, almost 24 years later, I found her email address and emailed her just to see how her and her family were doing, and she acknowledged it was her but then stopped responding after I sent her my picture to remind her who I was. All because I asked her out one time as a late teen.

Another girl, I was the first person she talked to when she was waiting for an interview. She would ask me for help with the work, ask me for help with her schoolwork, SHE CAME TO MY HOUSE, FELL ASLEEP AT MY HOUSE while working on schoolwork. She asked me to go to the mall with her, she took me to a Korean movie with her (and I'm the ONLY non-Korean in that theater). The moment the question was raised about next steps... shut out.

Now, this isn't all women.

The sister of one of my childhood friends, she and I stayed friends despite her knowing that I had feelings for her from when I asked her out back when we were still in high school. She didn't cut me off, in fact we met up for coffee before she was redeployed not too long ago and she knows she can call me anytime for anything and I'm there. I didn't really spend that much time with her directly despite knowing her for some 30 years. Yet, she never shut me out.

And I've told the story of my first girlfriend - SHE asked ME out. She knew I wasn't going to say no to her. She spent every evening with me at my house for 6 months straight, 6pm to midnight on the clock. I met her when I was 18 - Almost 24 years and tons of women later, I've never had a connection as strong as with her, despite not being physically attracted, it was the fact that there was no "guessing" with her. She was straight up, and I was straight up. We were just young and frankly, I wasn't ready for the relationship when it happened.

That inconsistency is what I'm talking about. You spend a lot of time, dating's not in the cards and you might get shut off. You spend a little time, dating might be out but you're still at least friends, which is fine. But then the girls that just outright go for what they want, almost always get success.

There's always a chance of rejection, but girls. Come on. You KNOW it's lower for you. You KNOW you hold the cards. You KNOW you have the power. You KNOW it's hard for dudes. So you can't be upset when the guys start to back off.

[SomeGuyCalledTom]

I actually am fine with women being more indirect in instances where the stakes are low, and/or the intent is innocuous. Eg: "Do you think it's cold in here?" is a perfectly acceptable way of asking her man to close a window he opened. We'd still prefer you just ask outright, but the stakes are low and there's no malicious intent.

Now take that same example, and up the stakes: she gets pissy and withdrawn when he misses the hint and says "nah I'm not cold at all". For rest of day he can't figure out why she's turned cold on him.

Now let's add malicious intent into this scenario: upon her man's oblivious response, she cuttingly replies "you ALWAYS do this, you're such an inconsiderate ass." Now that's a bit extreme, but you get where I'm going with this.

Now lets take a scenario that by its very nature is a high stakes conversation: she wants to make a baby with him. Now is the time to be direct as hell. "I want to have a baby, what do you think about bringing a little boy or girl into the world together?"

Now imagine she tries being indirect about this, pulling on his arm whenever passing a baby in public, but when he says "oh someone has baby fever?" she says "whaaat, nooo haha" and changes the topic.

I get why women have this feature of communication-- as the "gatherers" in our hunter-gatherer lineage, women had to avoid intratribal conflict and seek child-rearing support while the men hunted. So they learned to soften the "edge" of more direct orders/ demands/ statements of intent by cloaking them in a more circuitous, coded form that made her socially acceptable in the tribe.

But if the women got sent out to hunt a wooly mammoth, this indirect communication would get them killed. Since men naturally communicate as if we're 'on the hunt', we appreciate directness and brevity and clear communication. But when the hunt is over and we're sat around the campfire (or perhaps, having a netflix and chill with our girl after long day running errands), then she can be all indirect and soft-mouthed all she likes, coz the stakes are low and there's no predator to be hunted or avoided.

[kim45456]

What, that is fucking complicated? Can women also radical honest? I am very direct and honest. I say what I want and that is why people call me rude.

[SomeGuyCalledTom]

@kim45456 perhaps I wasn't clear in making the distinction: I'm totally down with a girl being direct; its just not as common as a girl being indirect, so as men we kinda have to choose our battles. Some guys will be like "I can't stand women coz everything is indirect with them", but most of the stuff that comes up day to day is innocuous and has no/low stakes. So my point is, if a girl is more indirect communicator, then i can live with that just so long as she can recognise when its appropriate to have a serious, direct conversation about nore important things.

[AmandaYVR]

You were very clear, Tom.
You remind me of the polite Germans on The Simpsons.
See 1:35 Always cracks me up.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqIsenRl_Wk

[SomeGuyCalledTom]

Hahaha 😂 classic episode

[btbc92]

You have most of it spot on! However to answer the main question? We cannot FIX the male and female direct and indirect communication gap because it doesn't benefit the willfully ignorant. But I will use my experiences and observations [without much biases as possible] to explain the problem. WARNING, LONG READ! But first, let's revise these statements as questions:

Guys

"1. You wish women would be more direct, say what they mean, feel, and want." Correction: "DO MEN really WISH women would be more direct, say what they mean, feel, and want?" The answer is this. [1] Some do, some don't. The reason why? It's all about the mindset of men, their operation, intent and what society calls men: horn dogs. You have to understand their mindset which is wired for sex. Think of that, and all the other answers will be answered. [2] Men who really care would ask this so they can be in good standing with women. They would prove this by asking key questions and problem solve since it's their best skillset. However, they're the weakest skillset is learning to express themselves and connect the same way a female can. They're not built for this. It's not a flaw. If they can, it may or may not work to their advantage with women and their peers. [4] With the other ones, they don't because they want dominance. They know some can be direct or not. Say what they mean or not, etc. They just don't care. [5] For the ones who say they do, and I mean the ones who are NOT in #2, they can't practice what they preach or show they can keep it. I know. I have years of experience in IRL, and on this site and others to prove it. Every time I tell guys about something more than 80% doesn't listen. I sometimes ask myself if I'm reading it wrong, if they're being dumb and trolling so hard it doesn't work, they can't understand what I am saying, or I'm wasting my time. But then again, 75% of women on this site, IRL and others don't listen either. So, you have to be the judge of that.

"2. By not doing this, you feel it sets up men as being expected to guess what she wants/expects and to be mind-readers." Take out 'not' and keep the rest, and you will have your answer. Or I will tell you. They do it because they feel it is their obligation to know because they hate being mind-readers. They know they can't. It's just the over-romanticized men who tend to feel they have to do it regardless because they have been told to do it. Which is also the wrong message to send.

"3. This indirectness makes you crazy. You believe it creates unnecessary confusion, chaos, and anger." The indirectness doesn't necessarily make them crazy, as in it is part of it, but not the main thing. It's the fact they are not getting what they want out of it because they wished we were more like them. They feel their more rational-minded and we'll never be. These biases cause problems for all of them and for us too. Because in reality there are rational-minded women too. But they will see some like me more like a man they cannot stand or like as a woman who can think. In fact, the good men love a woman who can think, regardless of her personality. But her character is a good place to use judgment. Many men today especially, sadly don't know how to implement that. Some as I said in #1, don't care. Girls who are naive genuinely doesn't know this. Some like myself had to have trial and error to understand the men in our lives with practice. While a good amount is too busy playing games. And those women, in general, drive men crazy. Can't blame them for that.

[btbc92]

"4. You want women to be more straightforward and forthright like men because you believe male society deal with issues more directly, quickly, and moves past them, without holding grudges as long or as intense." Not really. Men who understands the frustration DOES want women to be more straightforward, BUT like how you pointed it out for women:

"1. They don't want to be seen as demanding or nagging.
2. They think you will think their expectations of you and the relationship are too high and unrealistic.
3. Ideally they want the idea or gesture to come from you, as it will mean more if it was not prompted.
4. If they ask you or tell you what they want, and you don't do it or want to eventually do it, it will be disappointing, depressing, or a point of contention and future confrontation."

[btbc92]

The truth is nobody is wrong with both ends. Both sides are RIGHT. However, we are dealing with toxic people and there are too many people who need to be diagnosed and are now UNDERDIAGNOSED for mental illness. This is why so many children, teens and young adults now are suffering over the span of 6 generations because many children and now adults who were once children themselves have been emotionally neglected, abused, bullied, abandoned, or lack real human connections. When we are with healthy-minded people who are mature, understanding and not condescending will be able to identify the root cause of the miscommunication. They will do whatever it takes to understand. But we all must take the appropriate risk to be forthright. We have to put out as we want to be given back. Just not to do that with immature and unwilling participants.

[btbc92]

For women, yes, it is all of that. But just like the men, we expect men to be all about emotions and feelings when it is not how it works. It hurts, but the problem is unless we let go of our biases and fantasies we're just going to hurt ourselves. If you be vulnerable to the wrong man, you will have al of these things. Be vulnerable to the right man, and he will do whatever he can to correct his mistakes when he makes them. So stay away from toxic people who don't reciprocate.

[BlackRoseFairy]

While you have made very good points in your question I would like to counter here by saying that if men need us to be more direct, then they should talk too.
It's seen as bad if you ask a woman "What's wrong?" and she says "Nothing". And men are quick to put it off as not sharing, not opening up, you have to guess, she's mad at me and not saying...
But when you see your man in distress and the worry is plainly written in his face and you ask "What's wrong" apparently it is OK for him to say "Nothing". Why's that?
If I know that a guy truly cares and that he's not bothered or acting bored (the look of "not again" or "please let it be over soon") then yeah, I will open up to him. I will share what's on my mind, but I'd expect him to do the same. Yes, I like when he's tough and protecting and all, but he doesn't have to act tough around me 24/7. It's perfectly human to have feelings and share them and share your worries and problems. I am here to listen after all and help the best way I can.
So communication goes both ways. It's not a one way street...

[Jamie05rhs]

@BlackRoseFairy Fair point. But a lot of times we keep things to ourself because we don't want to sound whiny and have you think we're a baby. Because that would make you less attracted to us and you would respect us less. After all, everyone is saying that they don't want to be their man's "mother" (and I don't want her to be my mother either.)

[BlackRoseFairy]

@Jamie05rhs Guess what! So do we... There might be 100 things on my mind at a given time. I don't tend to babble his ears off by talking and whining for hours. I just share what brings my mood down at that time or if I need his opinion on a matter...

[Jamie05rhs]

@BlackRoseFairy But I would actually prefer to hear her tell me her struggles. Because that makes me feel useful. If she's got everything under control, then what the hell am I there for?

[OlderAndWiser]

So women want to manipulate us to get us to make their fantasies come true?

[crazy8000]

They that are doesn't want to know that they are. most likely why you got a lot of pink down votes.

[OlderAndWiser]

@crazy8000 Precisely!

[Dongtai]

I think it starts with kindness but also putting yourself in their shoes.

I say kindness because too often, we tend to close ourselves off from people treat us badly be it verbal or nonverbal. Personally, I don’t communicate well with people who have initially treated me badly because it made me uncomfortable with them. Not wanting to trigger that badness that they expressed I’ll either be indirect or not communicate to them at all. That’s why I believe kindness truly matters. Our nasty behavior can make other people distrusting towards other people to the point where they aren’t communicating in a way that’s helpful for both people.

Like the thing with ghosting. I can understand why some people ghost. Maybe at some point they didn’t have a problem telling someone they didn’t want to talk to them anymore. But then, someone reacting badly to it, so now this person who was once thoughtful and honest decides, well I don’t want to have my head chewed off, so I’ll just drop contact completely and not deal with the possibility.

However. Now this girl has ghosted a guy who she doesn’t know, has been ghosted many times before her so now he’s developing trust issues towards women. He can’t understand why he gets ghosted when he’s treating everyone the way he was raised to, with respect. By ghosting him, he’s left feeling subhuman and like his good actions don’t matter because the next girl will ghost him like the next. So now he decides A.) To stop being decent or
B.) Give up on girls all together because they’re all the same

I think we ruin eachother when we aren’t kind because it creates this cycle of distrust. We start seeing eachother as potential enemies so we stop communicating healthily and instead communicate while “protecting ourselves” by either walking on eggshells so we don’t seem naggy or high maintenance or pretending like we don’t care at all so we aren’t seen as soft of clingy.

[SomeGuyCalledTom]

Well said

[Jamie05rhs]

This deserves an MHO.

[AmandaYVR]

@Jamie05rhs Absolutely. This would have been my #3, but another change to the site design, now we're down to 2 MHOs. Ah well. No number/design can be perfect all the time.

[Adam_INTJ]

It doesn't seem like it'll be fixed, but here are some ideas.

One thing to keep in mind is, if you didn't ask for something, no one's at fault for not giving it to you. Hinting is not asking.

Women being more direct about their desires will result in regular arguments BECAUSE, they rarely know exactly what they want. They're aware of a problem/negative feeling, but they don't know the cause or best solutions. Men have this issue too. That's why noth men and women hire therapists.

For example, my mom will say that she wants respect and gratefulness, but I've learned that those don't actually satisfy what she's looking for. She feels unacknowledged/ not valued at times. Both of us are unaware of the best way to resolve that.

If any of us try to prescribe a solution for our own emotional problems, then we'll frustrate the people who love us and try to help by following OUR incorrect solutions to problems that we don't truly understand. When we complain to them about our lack of satisfaction with their effort, that'll hurt for those who tried their darndest to help and will start an argument of both defending themselves for genuine feelings of hurt and dissatisfaction that have no good solution.

I struggle with it all the time.
For example, I learned that my feeling of loneliness is not solved by my initial solution of getting to know more people.

I think that the best approach to the gap is for women to take more time to really think about what they're feeling, not what they want, what they're feeling. Then, after that introspection, they share their understanding of their feelings with the man in question, and both agree on a few potentially helpful things to try, and have specific, observable, quantifiable actions to go with it (e. g. "be nicer" is totally subjective and NOT a quantifiable thing to try). Best to remember: they're not solutions, they're trials of potential solutions. No one's to blame if they don't help.

Another approach that could help is men just guessing what women want more and actually asking. I don't think it'll be too helpful because we'll be wrong 98% of the time.

It still works to muddle through and just let time and talk clarify wants and needs.

[Lliam]

We've talked about male/female differences in communication and the reasons behind it before.
But you brought up some good points here that prompted a couple of questions in my mind.

Do women find direct communication threatening? Does it feel like confrontation?

Do women find men's louder, deeper, resonant voices intimidating? Sometimes when I think I'm speaking in a normal voice, not upset about anything, my wife will sort of withdraw as if I'm shouting or something. But if I speak in a quieter voice she'll ask me to speak up.
I remember my first time to Knott's Berry Farm when I was a kid. I went and stood near the tracks when the locomotive pulled up. The sheer power, the sound of it letting off steam and the deep, resonant sound of it chugging pistons penetrated my entire being. The sensation wasn't unpleasant and I wasn't afraid, but it filled me so completely that I had the urge to cry for some reason. I didn't cry but I'll always remember how I felt.
Is it possible that a man's voice can have a similar effect on women?

Men are full of testosterone and energy. Women appreciate that in some respects under certain circumstances. But do women also find it scary, as if a man is TNT that could explode if not handled carefully?

[AmandaYVR]

Yes, good questions. I've been pondering this. I don't really have a strong opinion. I'm wondering what other women would say.

I talked to my husband and asked him how he felt I felt about it, ha ha. He said basically, "Well it's an autonomic response, isn't it? Somebody's agitated, it means the other people in the vicinity may need to get ready, something might happen, you know just in case." If we were lesser evolved animals, it could be indicating that danger is afoot, and the herd needs to be aware, but we humans also know about mob mentality and the dangers of that, and when something is probably a false alarm.

But in a couples' home, if it's just the guy (or the woman) being uppity, I guess I would look at it like this - Has the guy shown volatility in the past, and has his behaviour been explosive or eratic? Is he apt to punch the wall, throw something? That's obviously a clear case where a nervous reaction is warranted. But for other people, who just get angry at the world, some injustice, or another person outside of their partner, I don't know, I think that's just life. There's a big difference when someone's mad at you, and mad at any other situation. I guess most people would say it's unpleasant to be around someone whose angry or venting. I guess it ruins the mood, vibe, atmosphere in a room. Most people probably want to tell them to just chill. But I personally don't take it as anything serious, that it will lead to something more serious. And I can very well be that person. I tend be very expressive and my voice often goes up and down, some things might put me in a bad mood and I do feel bad about that but it doesn't mean anything physical is going to happen. It never does or would. I'm not violent, but I am definitely incensed sometimes. And though men are more physically strong and powerful, I don't think of them as any more emotionally unhinged.

[AmandaYVR]

So comparing two generally calm people, one man, one woman, the confrontation is no different to me - if I'm in an argument with my mother or her partner or my husband (they're basically the only ones I ever argue with, and that's pretty rare), it's upsetting, but to an equal degree. The body and voice pitch and gender make no difference. I'm upset they're upset and vice versa, but nothing physical will happen either way, and we have our hands full with the emotion and contentiousness of it, nevermind any potential physical threat.

I'm enjoying our rollercoaster motif. As you know, I can't handle rollercoasters but I do love storms. To me, they're exciting. I like the energy. (As long as I'm safe and not isolated or going to be cut off from roads or power. I've had that and will never live in that situation again.) I understand the impact the locomotive had on you. I don't know what your childhood self was thinking exactly, but it's definitely interesting. Little boys, especially, are wowed by machinery and equipment. I wonder why moreso than little girls. Or women? I find it interesting, taking things apart, but I am so horrendously bad at fixing them and/or putting them back together. The more digital and digitized the world becomes, the more interesting and satisfying the tangible is (for me, anyway.)

But back to the topic. Somebody ranting about the world is ok to me (well, it depends what the subject it - some people do tend to go on and on about the same things, never even really changing the script.) But yelling at me, that's really unpleasant. Writing and thinking about it now, I know and can make the distinction no problem. But maybe the body reacts similarily, even when our minds know otherwise?

[AmandaYVR]

Is it a fight, or are they just venting about something more abstract? That's integral. There's a line in 'You've Got Mail' where Tom Hanks is a digital pen pal with Meg Ryan, having not met at this point, and he is comically giving her business advice, which is being used against him (both rival bookstore owners.) He tells her, "It's not personal, it's business. Fight. Go to the mattresses." To which she replies, "What is it with guys always saying "it's not personal? It's my business. It is personal." I like this writing very much. I think it speaks to one of the inherent differences in how we see the world. Women's brains seem wired to interconnect everything/things, while men are more often masters of compartmentalization.

I find the most intense anger comes from one-on-one interactions/relationships/disagreements. Like, there can be a person in a family who drives you or your partner nuts, and sometimes it seems impossible to resolve, yet you often cannot just completely walk away or extricate them from your life. This is more personally affecting than injustices in the world.

[AmandaYVR]

I had a stepfather who was very uppity, sometimes violent. When I was a teenager I felt I was at the mercy of his moods, living under the same small roof. He made things unnecessarily volatile. I couldn't wait to leave. He always made me feel I was a/the problem, too. Eventually one day he crashed into the double-paned sliding glass patio door (and that was in a moment of excitment, not anger.) Broken glass and blood everywhere, apparently. I was not there at the time. Almost all of the outbursts, I was not there for. He managed to control himself to that degree. His anger came out with his spouse, my mother, which is common. I've had several boyfriends and a husband and friends and none of them ever had issues with anger that bothered me. My father as well. Occasional yelling etc. is a part of life. Doesn't bother me too much, unless it's about me. I don't understand why some people seek the same environment, the same type of people of their childhood. It's familiar, yes, but it can be so destructive. How could any sane mind want more of it? Alas, humans are not all rational beings.

[Lliam]

I enjoy your thought process, Amanda. You often express thoughts and attitudes that sound just like mine. But it's your different thought process that I find interesting. I learn from you.

I want to go back briefly to the locomotive. What effected me was the sound. I didn't just hear it, I felt it in every cell of my body. It passed through me as if I was air. The intensity was visceral. The sensation felt like emotion, like intense butterflies, danger, fight or flight, even though no emotion was present. That's why, as a three year old, my instinctive response was an urge to cry. It's interesting that I can recall it so vividly.
Something in your original MyTake reminded me of it and made me wonder if something similar, but to a far lesser degree, might effect some women. I'm think of the effect a voice like Sam Elliot's has on women. That deep resonance doesn't necessarily generate fear, but it might make them tingle for reasons that are not dissimilar to the locomotive. To say, "It's so manly" is too simplistic. Could a deep voice vibrate like a growl and cause an unconscious sense of danger, butterflies, fight or flight, even when women know there is no danger? Could it elicit a sense of 'potential' danger that is thrilling? And might it be something that intimidates some women by making them feel smaller or weaker? As a result, they are afraid to challenge the locomotive.
I never thought of this before, so I'm just musing.

[Lliam]

I was thinking of the differences between men and women in general. I think there is an intimidation factor that women find both attractive and dangerous. It may cause women to be defensive when it is not warranted. Could that be part of the cause for the passive-aggressive communication style that women employ more commonly than do men?

It's is different, though, when two people know each other well and know if there is any danger.

[AmandaYVR]

What a good example, I love Sam Elliott's voice! He's great in every movie but my favourite of his is a lesser known 'I'll See You in My Dreams." Seen that one? https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3236120/reference
I am into deep voices, and voices are very important to me. Well that shouldn't surprise. I'm all about the head. Ha ha. But the thing about Sam is how infinitely calm his demeanor. Some people would not like his energy so much, and think he's too mellow, but I absolutely love it. I could sit and probably talk to him for hours. His movies always end too soon.
Alan Rickman has a similar energy though his voice is not as deep and he does not seem particularly tough/American/masculine.

Remember my question 'Who is the most complete person you know?' In that movie I referenced, there is a scene which perfectly exemplifies what you are tallking about, feeling the power and force of something. I cannot find the whole scene, drat, but they show it for a second in the trailer, at 2:16. Who is the most complete person you know? ↗
Winslet's character has suffered a great loss in her life, and she is still grieving from it. Matthias Schoenarts does not know the depths of her despair yet, but he is consistently impressed with her. They both are by each other. One day, the entire French crew gathers to dynamite the earth, so that they can begin hardscaping the gardens of Versailles, by the king's order. All but two stand above, high on the cliff, to watch. It is dangerous, but not so dangerous that they cannot watch from a safe distance. The two men below set off the dynamite, and run for the hill.

[AmandaYVR]

As the explosion detonates, all the other bystanders gasp and step back, but Kate stands firmly. Her hair blows back and she closes her eyes and takes in the full force of it. I relate to her. Matthias, who is falling in love with her, goes towards her. He wants to protect her, but he knows she is her own person, and this is what she wants. She is a mixture of brave and fearless yet has such sadness, she faces pain head on. My theory is that she wants to feel something, but is trapped by her guilt. It doesn't matter so much if it is pain. They contrast and mirror this with the subtlety and organicness of her garden designs, "a little chaos" (which she prefers to the order and formalness the king prefers, as he is concerned with displays of image, controlled lavishness, etc.), and her gentleness in interacting with people. There is pure poetry there.

So in writing that, I've come to the conclusion that it is this complexity, the adjacent contradiction of hard with soft, that I find particularly appealing. I love honesty and vulnerability in men as much as in women. Aggression and hostility are entirely different. Some women, particularly those from some other countries/cultures (Latinas, for ex), like a very masculine energy. I think that's less desired/expected in very egalitarian, 1st world countries like Canada. The energy you first described could be associated with passion, feeling strongly about something. It's only a real concern when it could erupt into something much more. And there is obviously a difference with a man who is a complete unknown stranger and one you know well. But I personally don't see the force behind something, such as a man who is up in arms, as being particularly alarming. You could say that it is like injecting something into the room, agitating the air, but every person has the ability to do that. We are all at times forces to be reckoned with. Stirrers of pots.

[Lliam]

Wise words. You're perspective always has layers. I appreciate that because my brain works the same way, although you are much better on issues of human nature.
Your answer suggests that you are good at assessing situations and don't automatically succumb to fight or flight. I can just see you closely watching, calmly and analytically, even with hidden amusement, as the pot stirs. And I have no doubt that you can wield a cauldron paddle like a ninja when riled. LOL

I just thought of another funny image. There is no more frightening sight for a man than a petite woman standing before him with her feet planted and her hands on her hips. She can speak in a controlled voice but it still feels like the man is confronted by a mama Grizzley. I love a woman who possesses that kind of resolve as long as she only uses it under absolutely necessary circumstances if ever. Most women don't realize it, but they can be terrifying. Lol
Guys can bluster and rant but a woman can make him go 😳, 🥺, 🥶, or 😱 with a look.

[AmandaYVR]

Bingo.
I'll say to you what I say to my husband often, "You don't know me at all!" (dripping with sarcasm, when he gets yet another thing about me right.) A high compliment.
Yep, you and me are copacetic, that is for sure.

[Regmorus]

1. Agreed completely. What can be done? - no idea. I myself will just never accept anyone like that, because for me that's equal to not understand each other. (you is of course the potential person with whom I'll have a relationship) What you think, should be clear, completely. Even what is not clear to yourself, if that is important, you should try to mention: as such. You should try to get me to understand, as I will do with you and you shouldn't do simultaneosly the work against it. Regardless of whatever. No secrets by thinking, otherwise that's a dead end for me.

2. On the other hand: yes, you want to have secrets in thinking, you may. I'll have myself. But if you have such, you should be ready to bear all the responsibility for such secrets on your shoulders completely, no exceptions. As I do.

For me not following 1 and 2 combined is lack of honesty, lack even of the attempt to be really honest.

So I'll find just the unique woman, who doesn't have these "weaknesses" (for me, these ARE weaknesses - one could display it as care, but if it's care, so point 2. ("well meant is sometimes the most direct way to the hell's flames" )) and agrees completely with combination of 1 and 2 or I won't ever.

(Or I'll make such woman, that beliefs in the good of these maximas. My mother, for example, became a much better person in this regard looking at how it should be done.)

[Regmorus]

about update: for surety: from my side certainly not, lol. In my posting "you" should be considered as "one" only that this was an easy (grammatical) form to express what I mean

[Regmorus]

could be from am abstract potential book written by me:) "How I would talk to someone about a relationship, if I were direct to express what I want from a person"

[AmandaYVR]

Nope, the Update was a typo/placed there instead of a comment field. I was replying back to
kaylaS91

[Regmorus]

thanks for informing, because I thought there is some probability my posting could be misunderstood

[Anpu23]

One of the big problems is the psychological disconnect between how men and women naturally deal with emotional distress. When something is wrong I want to fix it, I have no interest at all in talking about it. To me talking is just delaying the ability to fix the problem. Unless, of course, the conversation is about how to fix it it just feels like a big waste of time. So when you are confronted with a problem with your partner the urge is just to find a solution, and any conversation on her part feels like a discussion towards a fix. Meanwhile it seems like to her the solution is the conversation, that the conversation itself is the goal, not a means to an end. Without a clear understanding of this disconnect miscommunication is bound to happen. Especially if either party doesn't have a lot of experience with the other gender. Further this seems to be biological (hard wired into the brain) rather than learned. So any thought about just training children better is a false flag.
So what can we do? First be clear up front from either of your perspectives of exactly what it is you expect from a conversation.
So rather than nagging a better approach is to say, "I have an issue let's figure out a solution." This neither comes off as nagging nor is it confrontational. Instead it puts both of you on the same side of the problem. "Honey I have an issue, when I get up to go to the bathroom at night, I'm half asleep and end up falling in because the seat was up. Let's figure out a solution to the problem." Is much better than "you left the damned seat up again!" Anyway it's a thought.
I'm assuming that you have seen this but it's a great demonstration of what I'm talking about.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/-4EDhdAHrOg

[Mollynotgemma]

This is not a male / female thing!!! If anyone says to either a male or female... I’d really like it if you would speak your mind more and be true to you and not worry about what I think...
That person then does that...
What happens is they are accused of being to forthright! Doesn’t matter if they are male or female!
Someone who is shy speaks to a friend who gives advice to stand up and speak out...
They then do that and the very person that suggested it hates it!
What I think it is... is people chose friends and warm to people they feel they can help and be of use too!
Unfortunately the most fake people in our lives are the closest to us!
When we meet someone we judge and decide wether we like them or not in seconds. The ones we hate are actually a mirror image of us! The ones we care for are the ones we don’t fear! The ones we like are in our eyes a lesser person!!
When you nurture that supposed lesser person and they succeed we hate it!
If we can’t teach them anymore we feel useless! So we move on!
Let people be who they are and instead of changing them and asking them to speak out more or be more emotional... how about that person understands that they can’t and go about finding the way to get them to speak in another way!
BUT basically we all will speak and be ourselves with the people we feel comfortable with and love

[Phoenix98]

For me personally I just want my partner to be honest, truthful and open with me, that's really what's most important. And I like to try and get to know my partner to a degree that I don't have to guess and just know, what they like, what they want, be able to read em.

But If I'm not getting something or don't know then I certainly don't mind being asked or told. Which I don't see being a big deal personally.

And I myself make an effort to be forward with what I want and being honest about what I'm thinking or feeling, I think that kind of stuff is important on both sides.

[AmandaYVR]

Great post. Thanks for commenting.
Another honourary MHO to you (sorry, I ran out since it got switched to 2 only now.)

[Phoenix98]

Thank you, welcome.

It's all good ^^.

[updog45]

I recently dealt with this first hand. It almost cost us a 4 year relationship, only because my fiancee would not be direct in what was wrong. I knew for months and months that something was not right. She finally tells me at the same time she wants to take a break. This would have been mitigated had she told me what was wrong sooner, as I literally asked at least 3 times per week what was wrong. I dont think that there is anything you could do. Im sure she thinks her way is in the right, and I think my way is in the right.

[AmandaYVR]

Sorry you went through that. Good example though. There can be great cost to this.
So the fact that you were able to resolve the problem (s) by talking about it hasn't changed her thinking about being more preemptive?

[crazy8000]

The height of a immaturity mind that doesn't want to grow.

[updog45]

Maybe in the short term, but I wouldn't count on it lasting

[winterfox10]

I think that a large part of the problem could be resolved by teaching people that there is a huge difference between having needs and being needy. I never knew that growing up, I had to read about it online.

Women are basically worried about coming across as high maintenance and needy, but the things that they want men to do are often not unreasonable. What makes someone needy is that they are insisting that the other person take extraordinary measures that go far beyond simply fulfilling their request, and they usually aren't offering anything in return for the effort.

A good basic rule of thumb to determine if your request is reasonable: Ask yourself whether or not they could fulfill your request without needing to go out of their way to do it. If they don't need to change anything significant about their plans to do what you are asking them to do; chances are that you are making a reasonable request.

[btbc92]

But everybody has to give their 100% every day. It's not that the request are unreasonable, but whether or not if they are the appropriate people to do it at all. As she just said which is the truth. When you love somebody or care for them, you go far and beyond. There is nothing wrong with it. The question is are YOU the person that is expected to do it is okay with it if it means you have them? People have to know what they themselves can and cannot do and not expect everybody to want to do the same. It's Assumptions on both ends. Just like I had to learn the hard way that not every man wants to wait for marriage to have sex even though I am a virgin myself. I wait because I want to. And if I wanted a guy who respected me and wants to wait as well, then who should I invest in? The guy who is attracted to me because of looks but doesn't wait and screw anybody who they date? Or the guy who is attracted to my values and virtues and also wants to wait? I had to learn that at 8. The problem is do anybody wants to listen to what is being said? If a woman wants a handsome man based on her standards WHY dumb men continue to chase after her and don't bother to get to know her, know her? The same with dumb women? It's priorities and being eligible.

[btbc92]

I listen to men wholeheartedly without placing judgment. But their biases and nasty attitudes presented caused me to grow bitter. The reality is the people who claim they want all of these things often don't want it as they say they do. Actions speak louder than words. Men and women can say all of that, and it sounds good on the surface. But unless you know their history and judge their actions, morals, and character, you are a fool to even be invested in them. We cannot fix people we can only fix ourselves. Once I did most of that, I know have good people in my life.

[winterfox10]

@btbc92 I'm sorry, but I'm having some trouble understanding your point? If someone decided that they weren't willing to put in a small amount of effort to do something to make their partner happy; that doesn't change the fact that the request was still reasonable. In fact, all that means is that the person is an asshole. If what you are concerned about is chasing the person away, wouldn't the fact that you just chased an asshole out of your life be a win?

[btbc92]

Um no? Because the point is what are YOU looking for in a partner? If I am concerned over a stranger about pushing them away, and I have as an example of my past, the problem is with ME and my false consensus bias. NOT the other guy. However, from my experiences as well of the same topic, the same guys who CLAIM they want a good woman etc shamed me and say I would never make a good wife, mother or girlfriend because I wouldn't have sex before marriage and that sexual compatibility crap. They will do everything for the other girls, sex included but get's burned or they burned them. Then after all of the poor choices, they make they try to come crawling after me with their longing looks. I thank God I never gave in or paid attention to them. I wasn't stupid.

What I am saying is when you are with the right person who shares your values, etc, everything falls into place. When it doesn't, it's a sign you are with the wrong person. That's why I tell people, don't date strangers, date a friend you knew since forever and you have a solid relationship. Your families approve, your friends approve, your community approves, and God most of all, approve. People don't do that, they do what they want out of selfishness. That's the point I am making. People both don't know how to communicate, and still, act like they don't know how to communicate because it would mean they would have to take responsibility if things go wrong and lose control over you. AKA toxic RELATIONSHIP.

[btbc92]

The point is relationships should be wholesome. And if somebody says they want something, it is contractual. You can't handle it, you don't get in it. While yes, you run the risk of dating an a*hole, the rules still apply and you will be judged by those same rules and principals just by saying you want a relationship or friendship or marriage with a person. It is better to do your duty and what's expected of you and be blameless than for others to judge and find fault.

[winterfox10]

@btbc92 Yes, but what I'm trying to say is that the person behaving in a way that neglects your needs is proof that you have misidentified them as someone you ought to be giving of yourself to. Figuring out that someone can't or isn't willing to do something to fulfill your needs is rough, but it's better to figure that kind of thing out quickly

[btbc92]

People want to get away with stuff and they don't care who they hurt in the process of it. That's why this world is all screwed up. They love filth. They sell you a dream and make false promises so they can use and use until your used up and or dead, and then leech off the next person. Without wisdom, we will continue to make such mistakes until one of us says enough is enough. Only then will your life change for the better and your relationships improve. People just want to flash a badge so they can hide their toxicity. Its a competition with people. Life is not a race or competition, but that is how they see it so now our children are suffering because of it.

[btbc92]

Again, it's less to do with that and about taking authority and holding them to accountability like an adult. This means you pull back and set rules and boundaries or else you the deal is off. You don't stay in it and deal with a person who is not upholding their end of the deal. Point blink. Otherwise, you'll be a broke investor. I do not get involved with people who haven't shown themselves worthy of my friendship. I judge by their character. And if I see anything undesirable than the most they will get out of me is being nice and civil. But they will not get close to me. They don't like it, too bad.

[winterfox10]

@btbc92 It seems like you're just debating for the purpose of debating, because you and I aren't even disagreeing with each other.

[btbc92]

I am not here for the purpose of debating. Your not looking at it from the main standpoint, you are seeing it as a straight line when what your saying is broader than that. It doesn't matter what the main reasons are. What matters is that people treat each other with respect regardless if they feel they have to or not. If we as a society don't hold people to accountability, then this will continue to get out of control.

[Clayaya]

❤️❤️

[winterfox10]

@btbc92 But the question was about resolving communication gaps (or the means of communcation between genders) nothing more. You should always show people respect, but all the respect in the world isn't going to make a difference, if the person you're trying to talk to doesn't understand what you're trying to say. Take our little exchange here: you're saying that I have missed a bigger problem that exists between men and women, but I'm trying to tell you that I see what you are saying, but that I was trying to answer the question that was being asked.

[btbc92]

Resolving communication gaps is about having respect for others, by ACTIVELY listening and not just hearing. People don't need a runaround, they need direct answers and communication. "but all the respect in the world isn't going to make a difference," As long as one person have this way of thinking, this is way communication issues doesn't get resolved. Just because we know it doesn't [only because a good amount doesn't care], it doesn't mean that change doesn't start with us. If you know that, practice that every day. We have to be examples of change.

[Jamie05rhs]

"In fact, all that means is that the person is an asshole. If what you are concerned about is chasing the person away, wouldn't the fact that you just chased an asshole out of your life be a win?"
^THIS

[YHL6965]

You're pretty much on point on my desires of communication. Now, to solve this, I don't think it's up to men to guess what women want, to learn "women language", I don't think it's up to women to be just direct either, I think it's up to us both to meet in the middle, to both make efforts, to be respectful, empathetic and understanding towards each other so that we can move towards a common goal.

I think that most men are inherently different to most women in the way they think and communicate and vice versa. I think it's just how we are wired. However, it's up to both of us to overcome these natural differences, to learn to live with them so that we can live in harmony.

[lightbulb27]

It took 50 years to figure out, I hope you don't zap women with your cosmic "lazer beams" and change them to communicate like men. I just started to enjoy speaking in inuendo, translating their indirect questions, not believing what they say to find what they really mean, and having to ask them to repeat what they just meant they thought they just said. It's all part of... learning to bond more deeply with an infinitely complex being.

Otherwise, we'll end up in a discussion like that of "the coneheads" except with little computer like whistles and pops to make it more efficient so we don't think we are wasting time.

I would though ask women to stop asking me to multi task... that be an improvement.

[Jamie05rhs]

Disagree Disagree Disagree. If only they were more like computers. It would be SO much easier!

[Lunatic1]

Your understanding of men's desires is pretty much spot on. Being direct isn't being demanding or nagging in most cases, you would have to repeat yourself over and over again in a short time period to be "nagging". We want to know where we stand so we can improve where we need to.

[AmandaYVR]

Well said, to the point, thank you.

[Lunatic1]

My pleasure, anything to help heal the rift

[Mickey9999]

I don’t agree. Only because and i know I’m a minority here but I’m direct. I mean what I say and say what I mean. I think that has been influenced with age but it’s a good lesson to those who are younger. I don’t want to be loved or even liked for who people think i am but for who I actually am. If you don’t like what you see or hear, then simply walk away. I don’t play games. If I like you, you will know it. If I don’t like you, you will know that too. I cannot understand why more people aren’t more direct, it just doesn’t make sense to me.

[gbguy2430]

I agree somewhat. We all need communicate better. Whatever the reasons for communication gaps between the sexes, we can improve how we express our thoughts and listen so everyone can be better off... a person cannot be responsible or address issues that are not stated by another whether you're female or male. That's a resonable expectation in a relationship.

The other piece mentioned is listening. Then acting on that.

Lastly, compromise would be key to getting along and finding happiness for both people. If its nagging or unrealistic expectations we should aim to not require things to be negotiated in an all or nothing posture. Let's meet in the middle.

If we can work together on this we'll be taking steps in the right direction toward dealing with the male/female communication gap.

Great thoughts... great post.

[opnbuk59]

This is a result of people ahead to truly say what the feel mean and the one hearing it mature enough to hear respect and not take personal what was said, everyone is trying to be so sensitive don't say that that way how many ways can you say I don't love you, I want you you don't look good your fired, it's like we cower from the truth instead go way around the universe to say no if a guy wants sex with his girl wife he sends signals and she's not into it that evening by saying no I'm not in the mood his feelings are hurry her pulls back into him self and the night is ruined because of her being honest for last few generation society has gotten too sensitive too politically correct that's an oxymoron, but yeah the truth hurts would you rather a lie just never satisfied talking about people, who ever made the comment you can't handle the truth is right, but life would be pretty boring if we were all in sync on some issues

[Jamie05rhs]

Why would the night be "ruined" just because you didn't have sex?

[opnbuk59]

Well you know you want to have sex that evening you have been buttering up your girl teasing her playing with her flirting, and you prepare everything for a romantic night and she says no not tonight, I would say ok are you ok anything wrong, be concerned about her, you know, but I have seen so many guys that can't handle this scenario I just laid out, they get mad offended don't speak to their girl like she committed some Cardinal sin that was the point I was trying to get across hope I was articulate here thanks for response brother take care

[Lovely15678]

I just think that we need to communicate more in general and tey to be nicer either way, but I can understand why sometimes people could get frustrated with each other because they are not listening and maybe their pride is getting in the way and they are being too selfish or something and that is not good in any relationship because then one person feels like they are doing all of the work or something and that everything that they arw doing is being done for a reason, but yet somehow the other person doesn't understand why and how and wth, but then again it is only because they are not actually listening or caring and they are just a selfish ass loser.

[Lovely15678]

*try

[Lovely15678]

*to each other other way

[Lovely15678]

*either way

[Lovely15678]

*listening to each other

[Lovely15678]

*work... and maybe even being neglected or neglectful..

[Lovely15678]

*are

[Lovely15678]

* caring... and paying attention..

[Lovely15678]

*just being a selfish ass loser.

[Lovely15678]

... and maybe even a hypocrite if they are giving advice yet not even going it themself.

[Lovely15678]

*doing

[AmandaYVR]

Uh, 10 extra posts to fix typos? You can stop now. They really don't matter. Most people will skim over and get the gist, not even see them.

[Lovely15678]

You also.

[Lovely15678]

Okay wtf is your problem?

[Lovely15678]

I am sorry but there is not an edit button and yah it was probably fine already I just get like that sometimes for some reason. I really do not know why but yah maybe just changing things and possibly overthinking them.

[Lovely15678]

What did you mean by your update?

[Lovely15678]

@AmandaYVR

[Smegskull]

7. I'd also like them to be more rational, justify an emotion before expressing it.

1. Asking isn't demanding (we can say no, we learned that social skill).
2. They probably are. Better to bring those expectations down to earth sooner than later, a breakup hurts us less than a divorce.
3. Don't expect from us what you couldn't do yourselves.
4. That's children. Being unable to deal with not getting what they want all the time is how we describe children not women.
5. Every battle is worth fighting as they all have a resolution. An unfought battle is how resentment festers. If you don't want to fight a battle it means you expect to lose which in a social setting means you think you are in the wrong. You should confront not avoid your flaws (again you aren't children).
6. Huh... This sounds like a personal projection issue. Most people have positive experiences with their mother, a comparison would be a complement (admittedly an awkward one... Oedipus 😅 ).

[AmandaYVR]

Agree on most, disagree on these two things, but thanks for posting.

"If you don't want to fight a battle it means you expect to lose which in a social setting means you think you are in the wrong."
"Most people have positive experiences with their mother" not necessarily.

[Smegskull]

Why do you disagree?
I'm surprised you don't think the majority of people have positive experiences with their mother, dissing your own gender a bit there 😅

[Jamie05rhs]

I agree with all except for #6. And I think Amanda's point on #5 is just that some things are not significant enough to make an issue over.

[AmandaYVR]

It's self-evident why I disagree on 5. Jamie is correct.
My mother was not overbearing at all. But many do have issues. They have tended to run the household more and been involved in all the day-to-day nitty gritty of raising kids. It's one thing when you're a child, to be told what to do and have all your decisions critiqued and judged, but some parents never grow out of this role with their adult children, always believing they know better. Nobody wants to be told what to do, especially when it's one adult's preference over another's.
I am not gender biased this way. I call whatever I observe, doesn't matter who they are.

[Smegskull]

It's not self evident to me (just I'm sure how my mind works isn't self evident to you), I think every conflict is best resolved as soon as possible.
I did use the word most, not all...

[Sensmind]

Oddly enough I would leave as it is - There are pros and cons to having different personalities - I think of communication as being between individuals - If you click, you make it work - I am lucky that I don't deal with a lot of people and I make very deliberate choices about who I interact with so 95% of my communication is with people I think I can understand and they understand me.

[morganlove]

Pretty much nailed it. Nothing can be done or should be done about it. That has gone on for so long that I truly believe it would upset the cosmos if changed.

[AmandaYVR]

Hahahaha