Mental Disorders they say it's the disease to blame, not the fault of the person, but within the context of a relationship when do you draw the line?

[DaveJord]

I struggle with this because I have met a lot of really great people that I have dated. They are open about the fact that are victims of childhood trauma, and they are in therapy and making great progress.

Everything starts out great, over time these patterns develop, and they claim that it is not their fault, it's the disorder. At some point it is the actual person that is doing things that effect you in negative ways, but they act as though they are not to blame, and they have no responsibility for their actions.

www.bellfoundation.org.au/7-tips-on-how-to-tell-if-someone-has-borderline-personality-disorder/#:~:text=If%20a%20person%20has%20BPD,mental%20condition%20and%20be%20supportive.

If a person has Borderline Personality Disorder they'll have intense mood swings, dread being abandoned, struggle maintaining healthy relationships, and may act impulsively. Because people with BPD struggle with a lot, it's crucial for people around them to understand the mental condition and be supportive.

When and where do you draw the line?

Updates

1 y

Let me be clear I am talking about where you draw the line when you find yourself in a relationship with someone with a mental disorder.

[msc545]

This really goes to intent or lack of intent in terms of diagnosis, and whether or not you have somehow decided that the disease and the person are in fact separate entities, and if you have further decided that the person can or should be able to recognize the disease and control it, and whether or not you believe in primitive concepts such as "good" and "evil" and the like.

Given all that - Professionally I recommend that people not get involved with others who have serious mental illnesses like Personality Disorders, Affective disorders, and Psychotic disorders. I am involved with such people only in my professional role, a role that literally took many years of training and experience for me to become proficient at it. It is manifestly unsafe for people without a lot of training and experience to interact with people with serious mental illnesses.

Blaming people with serious mental illness for their behaviors that you dislike or disapprove of will not solve your problems. Not interacting with them to begin with will.

[DaveJord]

💯 I agree that's the piont more or less. I do not believe inherent good or evil... I do believe that balanced people cancel out their negative tendencies with their positive ones. Not a question of good or bad, but perspective I guess.

When comes to potential mental disorders... well it's not like a virus were can eradicate with and antibody. So no I do not believe that you can ever separate the disease from the person... its something they have know and consistently deal with throughout their lives.

Do they know they have a disorder or not? Well that's the main question isn't it? For those who are actively seeking therapy, well they must know on dome level and be willing to take some responsibility for their actions. For that are not in therapy there's no way of truly knowing if they are aware... but all thst matters for you is that you recognize something isn't right and take appropriate measures to protect the yourself emotionally and mentally, because trust me these types will tear you down in the deeps of hell with their toxic emotionally abusive behavior and manipulation games.

So as you stated, I am no professional... so I don't pretend to have any ability to manage a relationship with anyone like this. Even if are getting help or not... its very difficult thing.

Your advise is well given and received... stay clear of people like this, if you are a professional or not... your only fooling yourself to try date them.

[msc545]

Ok, yes, you have a good understanding of this. I won't treat people that have Borderline Personality Disorder because they don't benefit from treatment, and they are often actively dangerous to people who are trying to help them, and case management is a nightmare even in an inpatient setting.

Can you even imagine what it is like when they interact with untrained people?

[msc545]

Thanks for MHO

[TruthBringer]

@msc545

Sadly, most of us who dealt with someone with mental issues were not aware we were dealing with someone who has something like a personality disorder, only after the damage was done. So staying away from them makes it that much harder if you lack awareness or knowledge.

But yeah, the best course of action is staying far far away from such people.

[msc545]

@TruthBringer So one thing that is a fairly reliable marker for people who have BPD is initial inappropriate friendliness. The reasons for this are complicated, but consider it to be a solid red flag and get away from it immediately.

[TruthBringer]

@msc545

yeah, next to the very extreme moodswings my ex always had (jumping from happiness to sudden tears and then back to happiness again), she was very talkative (mainly about herself), oversharing her personal stuff, acting bubbly and inviting, etc. This all while we just got to know each other. I took it as a sign of interest and not as a red flag to a potential disorder. It was only after we got together that she started to show her unstable mood swings that seemed to be never ending throughout the relationship.

[msc545]

@TruthBringer Sorry. I hope you are well away from all that now.

[TruthBringer]

@msc545 Thanks. It's all well for me now. I'm in no-contact with her for many years. I was in a rut for the first couple of years trying to pick the pieces of what's left of myself. I remained single all that time until I felt mentally and emotionally ready to date again. I have moved on in life and have found true love & happiness.

It's only 6 years into no-contact that I stumbled across the topics of NPD and BPD by chance. Only to feel a shock through my body to discover it described my relationship perfectly. Everything started to make sense. For years I've been struggling with rumination and cognitive dissonance due to the trauma bond. It felt like a mountain got lifted off of my shoulders. The rumination decreased to almost non-existent.

[msc545]

@TruthBringer glad things are better for you.

[TruthBringer]

@msc545 Thanks for the kind words. All best to you!

[DaveJord]

@TruthBringer @msc545

This last one got me, I mean she asked to go to Mexico with her on the first date. I was like sure, if we ate stillndating 6 weeks from now I will go to Mexico. But dated for 4 weeks, had like 12 dates before sex. Then went to Tahoe and then Mexico.

So the Mexico thing was crazy to me... but he'll it was a trip to Mexico with a sexy woman... so why not?

She told me she was in therapy because she was victim of child hood trauma and really wanted to work on building productive relationships.

ALARM BELLS! 🔔 But @msc545 is right, I knew something was off... but sexy woman, Mexico, mojtois on the beach... she sucked me in.

Trip down was amazing, lots of fun... she was great 95%... just some little things.

But on the way back... holy shit the real her come out, and it was threes of most miserable days of my life. I basically called her out on something and tried to set a boundaries... and all Gaslighting, Blameshifting games began... and when I called bullshit on it she blew the fuck up!!! 🤯

But in a way it's my fault... because I knew, I fucking knew and ignored it because it Mexico, sexy woman and mojitos on the beach.

[msc545]

Even I have been persuaded by that deadly combination of Mexico, sexy woman, and mojitos on the beach - and paid for it dearly like @DaveJord did. :(

Never disregard your instincts.

[TruthBringer]

@DaveJord Damn, I'm sorry you had to experience that. I hope that you at least got to enjoy your trip despite the bs you had to deal with. I get it, you did it out of hope. Both of us did in our respective situation. Hope can be a bitch sometimes. And I feel ya when it comes to ignoring your instincts. I cannot recall a time where my instincts were wrong, regardless if I chose to ignore them or not. I believe that hoping that our instincts are wrong in order not to miss out on something potentially wonderful is what gets us in these situations. I'm glad I learned early in life not to ignore my gut feeling and that just because I have pure intentions, doesn't mean the other person as well.

All in all, I'm going to continue to avoid people who are mentally unstable/unhealthy. Because those are the people who brought me nothing more than misery. As soon as someone gives me bad vibes, it's deuces! And so far, staying away from them has worked out wonderfully for my personal happiness.

[msc545]

@TruthBringer well said!

[Chazmatazz269]

Mental health isn’t a factor more than any other. If they’re treating me badly, not accepting accountability for their behavior, and not making great efforts to improve then i’m out. The “reasons” for their behavior is completely beside the point. I don’t owe loyalty to anyone who isn’t working to earn it. If i’m not happy with them more often than i’m not, i’m out.

[DaveJord]

💯!!! Well said.

[Chazmatazz269]

Thank you for the MHP.

[OlderAndWiser]

It doesn't matter whether you blame "the disease" or the woman. The effect is the same and it makes your life hell. Are you supposed to continue to live a miserale life because it's the mental illness and not "her?"

Compatibility or incompatibility is not a matter of one person being at fault. Two people can both be good people, trying hard to make a relationship work, but they are incompatible. You don't stay together because no one is "at fault." You break up because you are incompatible. You don't need her fault to justify a break up. The incompatibility is enough.

I was married to a borderline personal girl for 17 years. I know what I'm talking about. If only I could go back and undo that chapter of my life!

[DaveJord]

22 years myself brother... I hear yah!

[OlderAndWiser]

My condolences!

[TruthBringer]

Wow, I can't imagine having to deal with such BS as long as you both had. For me it was only over a year until I ended my relationship with someone who most definitely shows signs of having BPD and NPD traits. I got off lucky, despite it had severely impacted my mental & emotional state.

[OlderAndWiser]

@TruthBringer When you are older, you will be even more proud of that accomplishment!

[Changiis07]

Are you asking where do you draw the line in a relationship once it becomes toxic to your mental health?

[DaveJord]

Yes, that is what I am asking when do draw the line for yourself when becomes to toxic for you.

[Changiis07]

Well for me I draw the line when they don't care to listen to me and where I'm coming from. Some us do indeed have childhood trauma that is difficult to change as some things trigger. I mean I like someone who cares about me, listens and respects my thoughts and is can also let me know if I'm doing something wrong it a respectful way. I can't stand curse words, or name calling in a relationship. I like someone who can communicate with me whenever there's bumps. So I don't tolerate certain things anymore, I can't be with someone who drinks because it reminds me of my dad and how he used to get so I date guys who do not drink, smoke, go to church etc

[Changiis07]

I meant I can't date guys who drink, smoke, I rather date guys who go to church, are respectful and know how to communicate without arguing

[DaveJord]

You say that you; " I mean I like someone who cares about me, listens and respects my thoughts and is can also let me know if I'm doing something wrong it a respectful way."

Lots of these types as a result of the is order, cannot take any level of criticism or anything that they perceive as criticism, no matter how polite or respectful you communicate with them. Because they have deep rooted insecurities, which triggers a irrational response when they feel threatened in any way, even when it is not threatening behavior.

[Changiis07]

Well if they can't take any level of criticism is best they do not get into a relationship until they have time to heal and move on. Everyone has childhood trauma but some move on and get better. What has helped me is seeking the Lord. Jesus is the only way, he helps us become better and helps to heal our wounded heart and by that is reading the Bible, going to church and surrounding myself with people who lift me up and not bring me down and let's face it it's tough nowadays to meet good people but they do exist.

[TruthBringer]

I draw the line when you start treating me like shit. I draw the line when my own mental and emotional state are being affected and/or I see no future with you.

Years ago, I have dated someone who shows very clear signs of BPD and NPD traits. It's common for people to have traits of both BPD and NPD, hence why they are categorized in the same cluster (Cluster B). On top of that, she has a depression (which is common within people who show symptoms of bipolar). And mind you, I spent almost a year researching to topic to come to the conclusion that I dealt with someone with a personality disorder. There was a lot of emotional abuse within that relationship. Even more than I was aware of at that time. The things I was aware of were enough for me to end it. My family was almost begging me to end it because of toxic it was.

Just because someone has a mental or personality disorder where they "cannot help" but mistreat their partner, doesn't mean they are entitled for others to deal with their bs. Their mental disorder is not an excuse to justify how they treat others.

One of the (many) reasons why I ended my relationship with my ex was not only the mistreatment, but also that she invested into the relationship whenever it was convenient to her. I found myself overcompensating for her lack of input, just so I can keep the relationship alive. On top of that, I was dealing with racial prejudice from her mom which she never bothered defend me against.

I'm not obligated to stay with a person who oversteps my boundaries and gives me the hot and cold treatment. I don't care what kind of mental disorder you have, nobody is obligated to deal with that crap. And I'm glad I didn't because after healing, I found someone who treats me far better than my ex could ever do. I have since promised myself to avoid anyone with a mental health issue or disorder. I'm not put on this Earth to drown because of someone else's misery.

Sorry not sorry.

[msc545]

Did you mean to say "Bipolar" or "Borderline" in your last comment? I ask because we can treat Bipolar Disorder fairly effectively, and we cannot treat Borderline Personality Disorder effectively at all although some people maintain they can ($$$ with no lasting results).

[TruthBringer]

@msc545 Good catch! I meant borderline and not bipolar. It seems like I confused the two. Thanks for bringing this to my attention.

[DaveJord]

@TruthBringer @msc545 Well thing about Bi-polor and BPD is that I as a lay person really can't tell the difference between between the two. I know is that in those moments I feel very threatened, not physically of course but as far as it affects my own mental state and well. being.

So in context of this post, they are pretty much the same things in terms of the effect it has on the other person, setting boundaries and knowing when it crosses the line.

[TruthBringer]

@DaveJord It's nice to know what a behavior might be, but it doesn't matter because abuse is abuse. If a person abuses you, no matter if it is bipolar or borderline, that is already enough reason to cut things off. Especially in the moment. In the moment, all that matters are your own personal boundaries being crossed and what you should do in the moment. In my case, it is distancing myself for the sake of self-preservation.

Only later on am I interested enough to seek out answers about their behavior. And I learned that you cannot ask it themselves, because you will only be lead astray even more. My conclusion to the disorders my ex has is a result of my own research outside of her. I got more answers than she can ever give me. I know more about her than she knows about herself now. Hell, I MAY know more about her than her own therapist does/did (who only talked to her about her depression at that time). Why? Because I was in the middle of her abuse, and not the therapist. But then again, this is merely an inductive assumption.

[DaveJord]

@TruthBringer Thats me as well in the moment I just want out of that situation. Later on, I do some research, but in so that I can better understand what the happened. I reevaluate all the things they told me abou their history, issues and things... I try to apply those things later on in other relationships but at the end of the day no matter what the cause or issue... I got to do what's best for my own mental state and set boundaries.

yes, its the dieses but if they can't separate that from the person, then they are who they are.

[TruthBringer]

@DaveJord Exactly! That's the best approach. The fucked up thing is, there are people who are going to try and shame you for choosing the path of self-preservation. They gaslight you into thinking you're the bad person because you refuse to disengage from an mentally disordered person. Because God forbid you refuse to be in a situation where you tolerate emotional abuse. These are often people who they themselves are guilty of the disorders or behaviors, or people who are still in the middle of the traumabond. I say, to hell with these snakes.

[DaveJord]

Thats my experience... the gaslighting starts and I start to feel very defensive and threatened... so I want to leave. Because there is no reasoning with them, or trying to explain anything to them, they just start blame shifting. So, you remove yourself from the situation and try to get out of there. Thats honestly your only defense. And man, they get so pissed like you're insulting them. It got nothing to do with hurting them, it's all about getting yourself out of a toxic situation.

Once you start to allow someone else to dictate your emotional state, by letting them take their anxiety out on you... you are only hurting yourself and doing nothing for them, other than enabling them to control your emotional state. By tearing or wearing you down until you accept the abuse and thereby, they manipulate you into pacifying them and thereby validating them.

[Anemone978]

I always thought I had this disorder but don't know for sure I would have to see a doctor about it...
But anyways its totally up to you what you put up with... you don't have to put up with excuses from people. Anyone who blames other things other than themselves is a fucking loser...

[DaveJord]

True that, agreed.

[annabananna]

I didn’t have the best childhood and yes there may be some more learning as an adult but if you blame everything on a childhood or disorder you will never get better. Us as adults are responsible for how we treat others no matter what our childhood was like.

[DaveJord]

The discord or trauma is an obsitical and challenge... but IT starts with you first. If you put on others, then it will continue to dominate you.

[annabananna]

Yup I agree.

[Anonymous]

In the context of a relationship you must consider thr matter of self preservation. If their disorder is negatively impacting you in a way that is detrimental, then something needs to be done. Worse yet, many SOs try to fill the role of therapist when they are neither equipped or distanced enough to do so, creating a codependent relationship.

[DaveJord]

💯 I am not a therapist. If they are NOT willing to take person responsible and be accountable to themselves first and participate in a process of healing on their own... then I can be he most supportive man ever, but it won't count for a damn. Unless they taking responsibility of themselves and their actions, words and process... its not on me to accept what ever they are dishing out.

[Lyndsielee666]

I have bpd and it’s 100% from childhood trauma and an abusive relationship. Can’t say I draw the line anywhere because I obsess over my person 🤦🏻‍♀️

[DaveJord]

@Lyndsielee666 At least you are aware of it and not living in denial about... so there is a chance over time with help you can improve upon these behaviors.

It's refreshing to see someone be honest about it, but yeah it does make it any easier.

[Lyndsielee666]

Oh yea I’m unfortunately very self aware 😂 hopefully therapy will help but I’ve been in it for this shit since I was 14 and it hasn’t really done much honestly

[DaveJord]

Yeah, I am sorry 😞

[LazerBean]

Any behavioral problems is a no. Regardless of the reason.

[DaveJord]

Yeah, that pretty much is where I am these days to.

[blissinanarchy1]

Mental health disorders are pretty fucking iffy. Nearly everyone has one. I draw the line where the person doesn’t actively try to become better as a person, and start using their diagnosis as a clutch.

If a coworker says some dickhead shit, then turns around, apologizes, explains she struggles with bipolar disorder, and that’s it rough for them but they’re trying harder, I get that.

If you’re just a cunt then say “I’m bipolar, I can’t help it” then you’re just a cunt.

[DaveJord]

Well I think. every person has tendencies that may appear to be mental, but their healthy level or allowance for all things. But it's when it crosses that line, and frequency of their behavior and intensity of outbursts steadily increase... and they seem unable or unwilling to see it or deal with it in a positive way. That's when you got to think it's a disorder and not just a normal person.

But your main piont is correct and I agree. 💯

[Meagainbutleavesoon]

If I see the they are continually abusing me after confronting them, they aren't working on changing then I know I need to leave. That's complete disrespect and disregard for the relationship. by the way, inwan the user that asked you to respond to the question about the amrried man that behave a certain way with me. I cannot Private message you because I don't have enough points, if you private message me I could give you details.

[DaveJord]

Well you have to follow me in order for me to MP you.

[Meagainbutleavesoon]

Hey I just followed, you can PM me I tried Private messaging you but it still wouldn't allow me to do it after the follow, since I don't have enough points.

[AmyHew1tt]

Behavioral things, and not actively trying to get better, or accept aid. Comforting and helping your SO is good and normal. But it's not healthy to be their therapist.

[DaveJord]

Yeah, I mean I have tried to be as supportive as possible... but at some point, they really have to put out the effort to prove they are trying to change the patterns of behavior for themselves. Not in ways to limit how it affects me, but because they really want that for themselves.

[msc545]

So another thing to keep in mind is that there is fairly good evidence that Borderline Personality disorder seems to have a fairly strong genetic component (as far as can be determined) which means that there is nothing we can do to treat it or the patient can do to make it much better - which is consistent with most professional experiences and opinions - including my own.

I got kicked off Quora for saying this since people with Borderline don't like to hear it.

[DaveJord]

@msc545 Yeah, I can see that... BPD types do not like to be challenged in any way. They become very defensive and cry about abuse over some pretty sublime things.

[TheSpaceGnome]

I can't be around people with mental disorders, they cause too much avoidable drama. I'll stick to sane, logical women.

[DaveJord]

Yeah, I get sucked in because of the hot factor... but as soon as the behaviors start kicking in I am out. No pushy is worth the chaos they bring I to your life.

Just wish I could figure it out before hitting that pushy, because it fucks with your mind when yoy met this wildcat of a woman who turns crazy on you a week or two later.

[TheSpaceGnome]

I have to be her friend for years before sex is even on the table, a crazy person would not last as my friend for that long.

[DaveJord]

Yeah, I hear that... but puss is good to.

[Iron_Man]

I don’t draw the line, especially if I love that person I work with her all the way

[Carolinaquarshie2]

Hello @DaveJord

[DaveJord]

Hi! 👋