Do you really need religion and believe in god to have good morals?

[Anonymous]

I was dating someone for 3 months and things were going great but he didn't like that I'm agnostic and practice no religion whatsoever.

He wanted a young girl, virgin, Catholic with good morals, family oriented, in college and love kids. I had practically all he wanted except the Catholic part. He said without practicing any religion then nothing is really keeping me to have good morals or stay faithful. He just couldn't accept it and dumped me. I went from ''you're a rare gem'' to ''I can't date you anymore''.

I don't understand. I believe in the old traditional love (not the stupid modern business transaction of getting an incentive), staying faithful but just don't go to church. Do you really need church and believing in good to have good morals?

Yes

No

Updates

+1 y

He wanted someone that knows how to cook. I like cooking. I had practically everything he asked for except the religion/god part.

Updates

+1 y

I'm a non-religious girl waiting till marriage. I just fail to see why you gotta get married in a church or do it because of god.

[Blueeyes81]

People like that make me laugh because its rather telling. He's only "good" because he fears the repercussions after he dies. Its that that is keeping him in line. Agnostic or atheist typically rely upon a common sense approach to morals. I wouldn't like that done to me so I won't do it to others. Seems like you doged a bullet with the guy.

[Asker]

Indeed. In the end, he lost; I didn't. I'm still waiting till marriage (without the religion part) because I believe in love and I don't want to waste my good years on dating forever (I don't want to be a man's forever childless, girlfriend). I'm dating to get married in my early 20's.

[Anonymous]

The biggest atrocities in the history of humans have always been by religious groups.

The most agnostic groups of humans have always been the better people.

[Asker]

Indeed. What they did to Joan of Arc and others they murdered brutally was horrible.

[jennifer_bloom]

The bible says God is God of the gentiles as well as the Jews so I believe God rules the hearts of both the loving religious people and the loving non religious people but at his young age, he doesn’t have the life experience to understand the boundaries between faith and morality, so as an older person, I don’t blame him for his choice, and also semantic compatibility is easier if your able to encode your morality using religious verbal data, so that is a real factor in why he may have turned you down.

[WonderBell99]

If your beliefs regarding religion or God are different, I’m afraid your relationship is not going to work out unless both of you agree to respect each other’s boundaries.

Agnostics and atheists do have morals. I am Agnostic and do not believe in the notion of religions. Do you need religion to simply be a decent human being? Morals were created long before religions were. If he believes that he CANNOT be a “good person” without religion, that is a HUGE red flag.

Your loyalty to your partner is NOT measured by your “faithfulness” to God. You can refuse to believe in God and STILL be a WONDERFUL partner.

What is Church? It is a place of worship. Simples.

This is something that could affect your relationship. You both seem incompatible in this aspect. Good thing you decided to end this relationship before either of you got attached. Neither you nor him need to compromise on your beliefs to date someone. Find someone else that fits your image of what you want in a partner.

[Kaneki05]

Ah there we go a difference at least, your agnostic so you are real after all!

[WonderBell99]

@Kaneki05 I probably am.. but you never know. Your voices may have been right.

[WonderBell99]

With ref to the update: As I’ve mentioned, you need not compromise on your beliefs to please someone else. You need a partner who respects your boundaries. You cannot just start believing in God or religion just because your partner does so. The relationship is over. Please do not kill over this and find someone else who appreciates you and sees and values the real you.

[WonderBell99]

*mull over this*

[BCRanger10]

Strictly speaking? No. But the transcendent reason for living a good moral life and performing good moral acts disappears otherwise.

Don't get me wrong, everyone should practice the Golden Rule. Treating others with patience, kindness, and charity and telling the truth acting with responsibility and prudence, and yes, waiting until marriage to have sex are all good things in and of themselves. The thing though that belief in God and action on said belief (religion) is what brings those things to fulfillment. It would be like going on a journey without having a destination. In other words, good moral behavior is not the object of religious faith.

Now, I am myself a practicing traditionalist Catholic. In the eyes of a Catholic, marriage is not merely a legal contract, but a sacrament. If a young faithful Catholic man is discerning marriage, he wants to find a woman with whom to share that full sacramental union. If the woman he marries is not Catholic or not even Christian (if she's a Jew, Muslim, Hindu, or agnostic or atheist), the union will still be there, but it will be to a lesser degree. That might not seem like much to the average person, but to a faithful Catholic, it's incredibly significant. That and there's also the risk of introducing religious indifference to the children who will be born from the marriage.

Yes, conversions can and do come about because of the marriage (or during the preparation thereof). However, if one spouse does convert to the Faith, it ought to be from their own free decision after prayer and study and not from feeling obligated to because the other spouse desires it.

Does this help at all?

[Stoner710]

I don’t think anything can be moral or immoral without the idea of God. You run into the idea of moral relativism without the idea of god.

For example why is rape wrong? Atheist don’t have a good answer to this, if the only purpose on humans os to reproduce and you can’t get laid without raping someone this would make rape perfectly fine because our purpose is to bread and make more children. With the idea of God existing and having rules in which we’re suppose to fallow who creaky said rape is wrong and immoral we should obey the command not to rape. If god doesn’t exist then rape is perfectly Ok. (Rape is just an example the same concept can be applied to murder theft and lying cheating etc. ). Society may have deemed these thing to be immoral because we were build on a Christian moral basis with the belief in god. Which is why without the existence of god morals don’t mean anything so do what we want and do what benefits ourselves and fuck anyone who disagrees with us because we only have this life and then we’re worm food. This is the issue with atheism and the very idea of morality because atheist can’t back up the idea of morality if god doesn’t exist.

[Blueeyes81]

Because I wouldn't like to be raped. Good to know you'd be raping every one without your commands. Smh.

[Stoner710]

@Blueeyes81 you are completely misinterpreting that. The Delma for atheist is they can’t explain why anything is wrong. Why is it wrong form me to steal you car? Because you don’t want your car stolen? Why is theft wrong? Without at least the idea of a higher power you literally cannot explain why anything is wrong you literally cannot explain why anything is right. Why is it a good to help the homeless? Why is it bad form person X to rob a store? Atheism it’s self doesn’t have a good explanation to why things are good and bad. This is why your falling into the moral relativist trap with atheism. Agnosticism at least can acknowledge we don’t know if god exist or not since we don’t know we act like religious folk in these areas because it’s better to act like go does exist rather then saying god doesn’t exist and not doing what you want because who cares when we die we’re worm food might as well make the most out of life for ourselves and our own self interest rather then care about others.

[Blueeyes81]

And you are drastically overthinking this. One can argue what is write or wrong by how it makes you feel. You act as if atheist don't have a conscious. That alone can determine what is right and what is wrong. Emotions will teach you a lot in that regard. Empathy, compassion, love, heartbreak, etc. It really is that simple and cover all your examples. What scares me is your thought process. You make it seem as if you WANT to do those horrible things but don't because of fear of damnation and that is scary to me as man is fallible. Do you not feel remorse, guilt, empathy? Putting ones self into another shoes goes a long ways. So to make it as blunt as possible. If I wouldn't like it done to me, then there is your wrong. If I was in their shoes would I like help, there is your right. Emotions my man, emotions determine our right and wrong. Reading several peoples responses on hear really make me wonder what depravity lies just under the surface of the religious if the only thing holding them back is fear.

[Blueeyes81]

Also I think you are mistaking nihilism for atheism as that is what you are describing.

[Hispanic-Cool-Guy]

In a way yes and no. God gave us a conscience to innately know good from evil.

The Bible in Romans I think chapter 2 speaks about how the Gentiles (heathens) who were without the old testament moral laws had God's laws written on their heart to know good from evil, their conscience bearing witness to either accusing or excusing them conduct wise.

Moreover, being born again through a new Spirit (Holy Spirit) as Jesus commanded once you accept the gospel of God and become saved your mortality will greatly increased in being more righteous and doing good works because the Holy Spirit of God will now have major influence over your mind to guide you into doing right always, when in versus when in the flesh (falling state) it's our natural nature to be sinful i. e. be selfish, lie, envy, greedy, hateful, unforgiving, whore around etc and mix in good in as well with evil.

Lastly, don't ever convert to catholicism. Catholicism is demonic at its core, mixes pagan worship with the Bible and teaches false doctrine.

The Bible is very clear avoid Catholicism in the book of Revelation.

[Bricealan]

I agree with most on GAG on the subject, and the whole idea that: "Good works will not get you into heaven" - leaves me a bit nauseated. If that is true, I will certainly burn in hell for eternity...

Everyone knows right from wrong, and I never needed religious dogma to show me that.

[God_of_Thunder]

Of course not, no.

Religion doesn't make a person good, or bad. Neither does not having religion. Morals are derived from personal nature, and upbringing.

There are just as many morally bankrupt religious people as there are athiests, and just as many morally responsible athiests as religious people.

[Johnagain]

OK. Change my vote to NO. I hit the wrong one by mistake.
Don't need religion to be a decent, law-abiding, moral person.
Common sense and good upbringing usually leads you in the best direction through life.
BUT, when you find out what is really going on with the world and the universe, ...
Wow! They, (religions) REALLY did a number on controlling the masses of sheeple!

I stand alone... enlightened.

[NamerOfStars]

Absolutely not. If being religious was a requirement for morality, than Vasily Arkhipov moild let us burn. And if he didn't, Stanislav Petrov would've. Likewise, if being religious guaranteed more ethical conduct, then much of world history would be a LOT more pleasant.

I can see wanting someone who shares the same values, but it seems a silly thing ho get hung up on if you otherwise do.

[Asker]

I updated my views. I believe in love and marriage but without religion.

[HighValue]

No. Many religious codes equal good morals if followed, but you don't have to be religious to have good morals.

I am Christian, but I follow what I think is right, regardless of what any religious code says. I already had the morals I have before I learned most of what is in the Bible.

[TenkRealist]

You can be a good person without religion and God. But you would have no basis for that morality. Your morality will always be subjective. This is an issue most Athiests dodge. Because well, if Athiesm is what's true and life has no inherent meaning, there is no absolute morality. We are free to murder, rape and plunder.

[Kaneki05]

You have not done any research into social studies have you? or any psychology? or any biology?

[TenkRealist]

I don't need to do extensive research in any field to know bullshit when I hear it.

[TenkRealist]

But yeah. My basis is more in Philosophy.

[Kaneki05]

That explains why your ignorant to many facts that prove it's not bullshit and morals would indeed exist without religion or god and that morals came way before humans even existed. Before one tries to make a comment something is bullshit it's smart and advise they do research into it first for the future. So I would suggest looking into such things to find out, that your way off in your thinking.

[TenkRealist]

Prove it. Use those "facts" you've learned to tell me, why if I was an Athiest who truly believed in that ideology (which I did at one point) should not murder, rape and plunder as I see fit.

[Kaneki05]

Because social aspects exist to social creatures. That right away explains why one wouldn't, if you don't quite understand what I mean by this then look into such things. If every monkey just killed every monkey it see's fit you thinks monkeys would be able to exist in packs? No lol.
It's actually a very simple concept that won't take much time to look into. That's without even needing to go into the complex sides of things.

[TenkRealist]

Oh I've looked into all the main prominent arguments against my point. None works. Who cares? Animals kill themselves to exinction all the time plus if Athiesm is true, nothing matters. So who cares?

[TenkRealist]

Playing the devils advocate here. We're all animals. It is survival of the fittest and smartest. If I do not adhere to these manmade rules, I can have what I want. I can sleep with the women I like, I can get rid of men I don't like, I can steal and be wealthy. Sure, it may come with legal risks but as long as I don't get caught, it is all good. All completely fair. (See how quickly your argument crumbles?)

[Kaneki05]

Wow you looked into them all right now and are at the top of understanding all these studies so quickly that are works of decades of studies by top level scientists and data gathers in there field, and none of it works according to your very smart analyses of it within a couple mins?
Wow I didn't realise you were such a genius.
by the way I am been sarcastic just in case you missed the memo. Your a very ignorant person, good luck with your life of not doing accurate research and understanding. I am sure it will lead to many more answers that are just factually wrong.

[TenkRealist]

You keep stating studies and facts. They mean nothing if they cannot be used to make a working argument. I've been an Athiest. I know their mindset. That's why I know how to crush it quickly. This is a slam dunk argument against Athiest morality. There is honestly no return from it except to change the topic or whine for Athiests really...

[Kaneki05]

It's funny that you keep using atheist against me when I never used your religion against you? You see how that works?
And you keep mentioning atheists and people when I am talking about monkeys so your really out of your depth of understanding here. Unless your gonna make an argument monkeys are atheists and that's why none of this works I think we are done.

[TenkRealist]

Just go. You're out of your depth here. Good day.

[WonderBell99]

Are you implying that atheists have no morals? That’s a rather baseless argument. Funnily, some of these Catholic priests have no problem with sexually abusing innocent people.. are they not religious? Where are their morals?

[TenkRealist]

No I didn't say that. Read my initial comment. I said Athiests can be good people. Religious can be bad people. But whereas the religious have a set moral standard, Athiests do not. Hence they are truly morally free and justified to do whatever they like. Please do not mis represent me. If you want to know what I think, ask. Then argue your point.

[TenkRealist]

Would you like to argue against my point too? I don't mind giving you a demo too if you like...

[WonderBell99]

Okay.. then why are some religious people some of the biggest hypocrites I’ve ever met? No hate.

Morals do not need any stand of “morality”. It varies from person to person. For example - in many religions, a girl staying a virgin until marriage makes her “pure”.. someone’s worth is based on their virginity status.

[TenkRealist]

Because humans are flawed and cannot often live up to their standards and they fail often? Some also use religion as a coat to take on and off as they see fit. That's their personal problem. Morals do not need a stand? Are you sure? Not a "girl staying virgin". It is "anyone". No one should have sex before marriage. That is what is called adultery. That is the standard. Many do not reach it. Just like committing a murder makes you a murderer, telling a lie makes you a liar, committing adultery makes you an adulterer. I don't get your point.

[TenkRealist]

Since you Wondergirl, said morality needs no stand, I'll ask you what I asked before. Imagine I am an Athiest and believe in your version of subjective morality, what is preventing me from doing whatever I want which makes me feel good and brings me success, even if they are "illegal" acts like murder, rape and plunder?

[WonderBell99]

Are you sure you’ve got the definition of adultery right?

Adulterous is defined as “voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a person who is not his or her spouse.“ If you are in a relationship and have consensual sex with your partner, it is neither adultery nor sin.

You cannot possibly compare murder with someone being a virgin. Even for murder, there are loopholes. If you kill someone during self defence, it is murder, but it does not make you guilty because that person was at fault. Again, there could be a variation in what is wrong and what is right.

[WonderBell99]

If you need religion to be a decent human being, you are nothing but a wolf in sheep’s clothing.

[WonderBell99]

**Adultery is defined as**

[TenkRealist]

Premarital sex is tied into thou shall not commit adultery as fornication. I know what I'm on about. It is a variation of adultery. Murder is killing someone innocent who does not deserve it. Killing in war isn't murder, nor is accidentally killing in self defense. Those are different actions with different intents.

[TenkRealist]

Answer my question now Wondergirl, if I'm an Athiest, what's preventing me? I never claimed you need religion to be decent. Do not put words in my mouth. I don't like that.

[WonderBell99]

No, you have still got the definition of adultery wrong. There are words and their respective definitions for a reason. You cannot go around changing words and their meanings.

[TenkRealist]

Sure. Let's change it to Pre Marital Sex/Fornication then. No problem. Now answer my question.

[WonderBell99]

I am Agnostic and I do not believe in the concept of religions. I’m not conceited enough to say that God does not exist, but I have never been a believer in it. It’s like fairytales, according to me.

You could be a religious person and still murder someone. What is stopping you from not murdering someone? Nothing. You could be an atheist and murder someone. What’s stopping you? Nothing.

And yes, in some cases, morality is subjective. For me, if you kill a serial killer or a pedophile, you are a hero. If you kill someone innocent just for the sake of going on a killing spree or getting a kick out of it, you are a vile human being.

[TenkRealist]

So you're a fool? You don't know whether God exists or not. But, you're somehow sure that you don't believe. (Blaring contradiction). No, you cannot be a "religious" person and murder someone and be deemed morally just. You would be a hypocrite and going against your religious principles. Athiests have no such standard moral principles to adhere to. If tomorrow Athiests agree socially that black people are monkeys (which they once did: Look into the history of scientific racism), then that's what they are. You're not an Agnostic. You're an Athiest but you know Athiesm cannot be defended. So you play Agnostic like a coward. Like those lack-thiests. What if I say for me if you kill those who commit abortions, you're a hero? Or maybe those who disagree with my political statements? Can they be considered heros too? If so, what's the point of a legal system? "Vile human"? What's that? If you have no basis in morality, nothing is vile or wrong. We are just clumps of cells floating around in nothingness with no meaning. So it doesn't matter at all.

[TenkRealist]

Why kill a serial killer or pedophile? They're only acting upon their instincts and their morality. If they want to do it, let them. It's their morality. Their body their choice. Right? Survival of the fittest. Winner takes all. There is no right or wrong because nothing matters in the end.

[WonderBell99]

Again, I don’t get how abortions come into play here. A fetus is not capable of perceiving pain until it is 14-16 weeks old. It is dependent on the mother for everything. The baby could also be a still born. You have started talking about saving a potential instead of an actual. The actual being a mother and the potential being the fetus. Everyone is a clump of cells at conception. That’s how biology works.

Yes, I’m a skeptic. I do NOT believe in religions at all, and I am skeptical about the existence of God, but I do lean more towards not believing in the existence of a “higher power”. People who blame everything on “God” are foolish. They lack accountability for THEIR actions

[TenkRealist]

Boom. Read my first comment. See? You started dodging. Good day :)

[WonderBell99]

I never dodged anything. Sorry if you weren’t able to comprehend my comment. It’s okay, I wasn’t counting on it anyway. Have a good day, sir. ☺️

[TenkRealist]

Sure. Feel free to slander. That's okay. I forgive you. Morality and all. Good day to you too :)

[TenkRealist]

If there is any other Athiest who wants to argue the point, most welcome to try, drop a comment and I'll get back to you in about 8-10 hours. Need to get some sleep. :)

[WonderBell99]

I certainly do not need anyone to “forgive” me because I have made no mistakes. If disagreeing with you is a mistake which should be forgiven.. I’ve got no words, really, other than saying that this whole conversation was futile

[TenkRealist]

👍
...

[Kaneki05]

Religion came after morals not before, Unless your telling me animals have religions along with their houses of worships to god, since yes animals have shown evidence of morals.

[strateguy632]

yes because you NEED to know what moral is. the inverse is worse, criminals rely on atheism and the more people spread atheism the more people rely on that to do crimes and rap_e.

[jshm2]

That's the only place morals and religious belief come from, kiddo. You were not his fit and you should respect that.

[OfDeath]

You're an idiot to be frank.

[Asker]

Ok. I still will agree to disagree with you on that though. I'm still waiting till marriage and all those other qualities he wanted. I'm just not waiting because of religious or god. I'm waiting because I believe in real love and loyalty.

[Anonymous]

FOR I GOD HAVE WRITTEN THE LAWS ON YOUR HEARTS

Romans 2:14

he literally coded the laws into us

we know when we are doing something bad or good
we can feel it

[OfDeath]

Of course not. Morals are an innate feature of human nature which stem from our species having adapted to group survival. Any deviation from this is due to a genetic defect or mutation.

[Asker]

I'm still waiting till marriage but not because of god's order nor religious. I don't want to get married in a church. I believe in the value of unique, real love; the love from the good old days where people would grow old together and had loyalty, not the stupid modern one where some women ruined it.

[OfDeath]

If you want to love someone, excluding sex is not a good way to achieve that. If you don't want kids yet, by all means use protection. However, to abstain from sexual intercourse altogether until a ceremony has carried out has no practical effect whatsoever.

[Asker]

I actually want to have kids in my early 20's (24 years and younger) but kids within a marriage. I want my first to be my last; with a husband... not with a boyfriend I'm going to break up.

[OfDeath]

Sex is an important part of human bonding. If you withhold it from a partner for the purposes of sentimentality such as not having sex until you're married, you run a few risks. One is that your relationship may become contemptuous. Another, is that when you finally do marry, you find you're not sexually compatible with your partner. There can also be resentment that either partner never had a chance to play the proverbial field which can lead to relationship problems down the road. Potentially, you or your partner may adapt to the sexless premarital relationship and be uncomfortable with the other half expecting to have regular sex post marriage.

An easy way to prevent problems like this, is to practice safe sex before marriage and only marry a partner you know will stick around and has the same relationship goals.

[Iron_Man]

Remember no god no life no god no life after death no God crazy earth. God is eternal life

[Asker]

I'm agnostic, which means I can't confirm nor deny its existence. I think there might be a possibility of a supreme force but there aren't real evidence so I don't know. I don't deny it completely like an atheist but I have my doubts.

[Iron_Man]

I could try to help you with this if you’re interested there is a God trusts my friend have trust

[BLP11520]

I don't want to answer, but it sounds like you have yourself together and would make a good mate for someone.

[Asker]

Thank you. He dumped me for nothing. We were dating to settle down in the future (I don't date to be someone's girlfriend for years, nope). He wanted a virgin girl waiting till marriage, old-fashioned values about love, and all those other qualities I've mentioned. I have them all except the religious part. I'm still waiting till marriage but not because of god or church but because I want the love from the old times where people stayed till old age. I still believe in loyalty. The day I get married someday, I want that to be with the first and last man.

[OddBeMe]

Actually the opposite. Being good without expectation of god’s reward makes us better people.

[Asker]

This basically. I believe in love and marriage but not in religion nor church. As my updated says, I'm a non-religious girl waiting till marriage.

[OddBeMe]

Cool! I would suggest you dont wait until marriage. You need to get to know the person before a big leap of marriage. So many mormons are trapped in abusive relationships.

[MrTaboo]

Yes, because without God where do morals derive from?

[Asker]

I always though people make their own decisions and if you do good it's because it's the right thing to do, not because you're afraid of being punished by some supreme being.
I consider myself agnostic. I think there is some possibility that some type of unexplained thing might exist but I'm not sure. I can't accept it 100% without any evidence.

[MrTaboo]

Without God, what is the "right thing"?

[Asker]

Your own free will. I thought there is more credit if you do good because you feel at peace with yourself. If I were doing something wrong, it would be your own guilt eating you up and not a ''omg I've just sinned, I gotta confess in church'' thing.

[Asker]

then basic empathy, while some portion of it is developed with the environment you grew up with... you also have to be born with it. You're either born with it or you're not.

[MrTaboo]

Our own free will gets us fatherless homes, cutting little kids genitals off, murdering unborn and letting criminals out.

[Asker]

My parents are still happily married and both are non-religious.

[MrTaboo]

Didn't say it's not possible. But I bet you they have morales that are routed in Christianity.

[Dinosaursandanime65]

That’s like saying it’s not gay for two girls to literally do The Sussy but it is when guys do it

[altdbob]

Some of the kinkiest people I know are religious freaks.

[FunkyMonkee]

You certainly don't!! Logic will do just fine!!

[Asker]

Yeah. I fail to see my ex boyfriend's logic. He dumped me for nothing. I'm still waiting till marriage because I believe in real love, in the old fashioned way, the good old days people use to stay till death. I'm just non-religious that's all.

[FunkyMonkee]

Me neither. I just don't see the point in any of it. Okay, there's some good moralistic stories in the bible but, you can get the same stuff from movies and other books, mostly based on LOGIC. Mother Goose, Grimms,, Hans Christian Anderson and Dr. Seuss will have advice in their books just as good as what the bible has.

[Agape93]

Nope not at all

[bamesjond0069]

Id date you. You sound awesome.

[Asker]

Well my now ex boyfriend and I were dating with intention (not dating just to date). I fit all the qualities he wanted; virgin girl waiting till marriage, old values values about love, family oriented and everything else mentioned except the devoted Catholic thing. I don't understand. I can still be devoted and loyal, but not because of god or religion. I'm a non-religious girl waiting till marriage.

[bamesjond0069]

Well i do see some issues though. For example... why marriage? Im not even sure what marriage is supposed to mean without God being the center of it.

[Asker]

Marriage for me is the union of a family and being loyal, staying till old age. I believe in love and marriage. I just don't believe in religion nor church.

[bamesjond0069]

So couldn't one just be a family and be loyal and promise not to leave without any of the "marriage" stuff?

[Asker]

I guess it's the way someone was raised. My parents are still happily married and they are non-religious too.
If you just want a permanent girlfriend to form a family, you can but the girl has to be on the same page with agreeing to never getting married. Personally I would feel a lot was missing. I would be wondering how come I'm good enough to be his girlfriend and love of his life but not wife. I would feel hurt as a woman and as a person overall if someone claims to love me but never wants to marry me. That wouldn't make sense to me.

[Asker]

Plus I would feel like he doesn't really trust me.

[bamesjond0069]

I mean marriage seems to me to primarily be a religious function. Its one many athiest+ cling to i think because there is a desire still for the "benefits" even though it serves no purpose. I say that as exampled by the divorce rates. Clearly marriage does not mean to the general non religious population as it does to the religious population (see like orthodox jew divorce rates or amish divorce rates). Clearly without God the meaning is greatly reduced and its more a fashion statement, tax credit sort of thing. I get that to YOU its not that but you're occupying a very narrow spectrum of people so traditional they highly believe in marriage and so non traditional they have no religion. Its a corner of thought that very few people are likely to subscribe.

[Asker]

I've had a couple friends that actually didn't understand how I can be a non-religious girl waiting till marriage. I got told that I have a weird and rare combination and that I'm hard to find. Like you, they didn't understand how is that possible. It is possible. There are all sorts of different people in the world afterall.

[bamesjond0069]

I agree its possible. I used to be in a similar place. However the issue arises when you want to find someone who shares your values. You most likely will have issues finding that or you will work hard to really analyze you're beliefs and come up with a coherent world view. What im saying is if there's no God then why is what you're doing important? Are you able to answer this question with a detailed answer that doesn't involve your feelings?

[Asker]

Without the idea of a supreme being watching over you, it means you're willing to work out on your commitment. In just a relationship, you expect no arguments and every day to be good because afterall (even more so if there are no kids) you can walk away easily anytime. You'll always have one foot out the door. In a marriage, you have to work it out and you can't just walk away just because you had a trivial argument and she's/he's stressing you out that day.

[Asker]

I'm applying this logic without the ridiculous ''filing for divorce to get incentive'' thing that ruins it for the rest of us. I'm aware of that trend. I hate that.
This is for those that stay in their marriage and believe in working things out.

[bamesjond0069]

"In a marriage, you have to work it out and you can't just walk away..." evidence for this claim?

"This is for those that stay in their marriage and believe in working things out." Why do you believe that? Who is to say thats right? And who is to say you cannot change your mind thats what you believe later on?

[Asker]

Well certain people can still change their minds but it's always much easier to walk away from a relationship than from a marriage.
Analyzing it from a logical point of view (and purely biological evolution), if I used all my good years (ages 20-29) on just dating, being someone's forever girlfriend, do the cohabitation and at the very end there is a break-up and I remain childless; he not losing. He has no limited time to worry about. Me on the other hand... I lost.
I've just read a post on this site not so long ago about another girl wasting her years living together with her boyfriend (her so called ''love of her life''), being with him for 7 years and when asked about when they'll get married, he answered her with an ''Someday we'll get married''.
No thanks. I don't want to be someone's ''Someday'' as an answer? Just like you guys are the gatekeepers of commitment and are careful, I'm careful too. Why would I be excited about being on a losing positiong?

[Asker]

Applying biological evolution; we have to find a suitable partner that will be there for us and the child. A woman dating around for years with boyfriend after boyfriend or sleeping around with several men, is wasting her market value, not using her potential.
That's pure biology right there.

[bamesjond0069]

"... it's always much easier to walk away from a relationship than from a marriage." Most people are doing it, so is it really? Unlike the past, you can divorce for any or no reason. You also cannot legally force your spouse to behave. Ie in the past police would generally tell men out misbehaving to go home. And would allow for a man to "retrieve" his wife from a bar. So what exactly does it do? I think you're just repeating a talking point from the past that no longer applies.

Why do you assume you would be childless? You could have children and be unmarried. Many women do.

"Just like you guys are the gatekeepers of commitment and are careful, I'm careful too." Well as women are gatekeepers for sex a man who demands a certain outcome must rely upon prostitutes or other undesirable women. And just so a woman who demands marriage must often have to choose from more undesirable men. Thats where the issue is.

"A woman dating around for years with boyfriend after boyfriend or sleeping around with several men, is wasting her market value, not using her potential." I agree. 👍 The issue is that is working off a rulebook from what marriage has been and how people think of it, not as it currently exists. What if the law required men to chop off both arms in order to marry? Well no matter who you marry they would be armless. You could never have a husband with arms. Or you could have a boyfriend with arms. Got a preference? Well today it only legally makes sense for poor men to marry, men who have no real options with women, and men who are so clueless to realize their own circumstances... and highly religious men who feel its their duty no matter the law to marry. So which kind of man do you choose? Its a bit of an issue because the best men that most align with your beliefs are highly religious and you're not. So if not do you want a dummy or a bum or just someone totally undesireable?

[Asker]

How about changing the law and making it a way that would be great for both genders? In other countries like Japan there is no monetary incentive for divorce; also men and women learn to help and cooperate with each other since their early years... not use people as commodities or sex machines.

This what I can think of that would probably help both genders:
- Have more kids motivated on helping each other... establishing a better friendship and understanding of the opposite genders and appreciating their differences; not trying to compete
- Getting rid of collecting money after divorce would be the 1st step. The exception would be if they are proven to be an abusive spouse or there are evidence of infidelity; in that case... incentive for the affected party (man or woman).
- Fine and punishable up to 5 years for faking futures with women and making them waste their years, lying about wanting marriage and kids.
- Fine and punishable up to 5 years for trying to divorce for any reason just to collect money. You get none.

[Asker]

Things are too complicated indeed. My parents are non-religious and they still got married. Things were more easier in their time and it didn't seem like playing chess with the opposite gender.

[bamesjond0069]

Well the laws werent this way before the 70s and society was much more conservative. Even after many people assumed its the same even though its not. Thats why you have parents and grandparents pushing so much for marriage. They keep thinking its the same "oh people dont try to divorce because nobody associates with divorcees" uhh yes they do "the court will take into account who is cheating and really try to do whats best for the family" uhh no they dont. This is fairytale stuff from the 50s basically but it lags between old people saying at the ends of their lives it worked out great for me well its outdated advice now.

I think yes the laws do need to change if marriage will continue to stay relevant. Otherwise it won't as evidenced by lowest marriage rates ever and highest divorce rates ever.

One of the main drivers is hookup culture and non virgin women. I dont care how progressive and liberal society claims to be but men as a whole do not want to marry women who sleep around. Unfortunately most girls are having sex before they are of age to realistically date for marriage. So where does that leave most men? Its not even a realistic concept for 99% of men. Me personally i believe marriage as a concept is exclusively for virgin women. Period zero exceptions. Others are more forgiving but not anything goes certainly. So i do not disagree with what you are doing at all. I think what you're doing is awesome!

That cannot simply be changed by law though. But here is what can, divorce can only happen for cause. Documented provable physical abuse or cheating or abandonment. No other reasons. The one who does such a thing would be financially penalized. Otherwise they are stuck together forever as intended.

We have so much welfare, i think there should be welfare provided for married couples with children all living in the same household. More incentive provided for each child. Upon divorce, separation or if there is no children, there is no money.

[Asker]

I can only think of one girl that's not a virgin but might be an exception. My friend's cousin got raped at the age of 11. She's still in therapy and doesn't date. How do you view real rape victims? What if in her case, she would've loved being a virgin, saving it for her husband in the future but some bastard took a child's innocence?

[bamesjond0069]

I mean its not a very common situation so not one i care to weigh in on. I think many girls pretend to be virgins. Im saying this as a guy who dated girls from community college and church no older than 22 max most 18 or 19. Most girls who are young and even religious ones are sleeping around which is evidenced by how they just wanted to jump in bed with me and upon an intimate relationship they shared the details. I've even had parents try to set me up with their young daughters so even that level of traditional and with involved parents and the girls were not virgins either. One the dad told me up front she wasn't a virgin as she had one boyfriend since middle school and he wasn't good for her and she learned her lesson. So from my side its ultra rare. Im sure there's some decent amount but its about meeting them. I bet most are homebodies.

[Asker]

Well it's bad starting a relationship with a lie. The more people someone sleeps with, the less likely they are then able to develop a bond with their partner. I would be out of my mind to marry someone that sleeps with hookers and is into bars and parties. Why would any virgin girl waiting till marriage want that? He wouldn't be sharing similar values, goals, isn't family oriented and can end up cheating. It was interesting in the old days. The girl was able to meet her equivalent, close to her age range and not a cad, party guy type. It's sad those days are gone.

[bamesjond0069]

Besides this guy, have you found guys at least close to what you want to at least talk to or anything? Id imagine its not easy to date with what you're looking for.

[Asker]

Nope. I'm back to the dating market, searching. I nearly got excited upon chatting with this new guy but just like my ex boyfriend, the last one was a religious fanatic. Yes it's hard. I don't mind if he practices a religion but I don't want him forcing that on me.

[bamesjond0069]

Yeah. I mean it really is going to be a hard thing to navigate. It may not seem like it so obviously but its really like demanding an atheist who regularly attends church. Yes there are ones that do such a thing but thats going to be your ultimate limiting factor that disqualifies 99.9% of men let alone so y'all actually get along. Lol.

[Abdulwahh]

No but religion emphasizes it on a deeper level

[Asker]

I thought waiting till marriage out of love and loyalty was a good reason too. I'm a non-religious girl waiting till marriage.

[Nads111]

No...

[jahaims]

No, lmfao