Why be moral if you're not religious?

[Nadim171]

There is no reason to be moral if you're not religious. And I'm not religious either. I believe in God, but I'm a diest (I believe that God created the world but doesn't intervene on a daily basis) and if God exists, he doesn't intend us to be moral. Nature rewards ruthlessness and violence. Why be moral or care about ethics if you're not religious? Personally, I have no moral code. I wouldn't break the law because people who do so are very likely to get caught. I wouldn't be an asshole to someone without a reason to do so, but I follow no unwritten rules. One must keep the appearance of being moral, but there is no reason to always be moral. Religion is a necessary delusion, if everyone realized that it's false, chaos would follow. I help people when it costs me nothing, but I would break any moral codes for the right price.

[NamerOfStars]

Nonsense. Systems of morality build a social framework that prevents people from doing things that harm others, even when it's to their advantage. It gives a form of self-enforcing bias against unethical activity, even when laws can't catch up or authorities are unaware. A society build on Machiavellian manipulation is going to lack that; sooner or later, you'll find a knife in your back, unless you're constantly on alert, and unable to trust others in any capacity- in which case, you'll be brought down by those who do.

What sets us apart from the other apes in a social sense is how well our adult males work together. If you want to stew in an atmosphere of perpetual fear, you're not going to get skyscrapers; you'll be lucky if you can band together long enough to create language.

Nature rewards ruthlessness, if not cruelty; you're correct there, but if God created the universe and then backed off to watch it, the primary reason for intervention in human affairs would be humanity's potential to be MORE than just another flavor of chimp- more than another derived iteration of what came before. That's what morals allow you to become. Maybe not so much as an individual, but as a species.

[Nadim171]

You're not wrong. It would be terrible if everyone become a machiavellian. Society would collapse immideatly. That's why religion must exist, and even a strong, somewhat centralized religion. Only a select few can know the truth and use it to their advantage. I'm not trying to spread the word.

[NamerOfStars]

But you're not spreading the truth- it's not religion that's necessary for social cohesion, it's morality.

[Nadim171]

A man that doesn't believe in religion is not free, he searches for something else to believe in. What happened after the west abandoned Christianity? We got Nazism, then communsim and now the unsustainable woke ideology. People's lives are empty, it's only the rapid economic growth that kept them going, when the economy is halted, if we get something like the great depression again, chaos would insue and people will ignore that morality that is based on nothing and for which they are not rewarded neither on earth nor in heaven. There will be eventually a return to religion.

[NamerOfStars]

You have quite a bit to learn about psychology. Do that first, then lecture.

[Lynx122]

Because it's who I am. I know that in this world often people who lie, make false promises and don't back them up, claim they can do way more than they actually can, always look for attention, exploit and abuse people who are in a weaker position etc. Those people often do way better than people who back up what they say and help people in need etc. For example Boris Johnson, he impregnated 5 women while married to someone else. And the same thing he did to his wives he did to his voters too. Make big promises and then stab them in the back. But even though he hasn't done much right since he was born he got to where he was.

BUT I'm me and I have a internal moral code and I like to have inner peace and feel good about myself. I help bugs earth worms, snails, wasps idc. I don't want money or power that much and I'd rather enjoy my time in a positive environment and atmosphere. It sucks that the world is a shit place in many ways but I don't have to be a part of the shit. I can just try and enjoy the nice things. Also I was born in the richest country in the world with beautiful nature so I don't really have to be an asshole to survive. My living standard is higher than most people in the world even though I'm poor in this country.

[TenderFantasy]

It's not about having a religion or believing in God. It's about doing unto others what you would like done to you. It's called the Golden Rule. Read up on it.

-SV

[Nadim171]

Why do that though?

[Kasabiian]

"It's not about having a religion or believing in God. It's about doing unto others what you would like done to you. It's called the Golden Rule. Read up on it."

LOL! Oh the irony! The "Golden Rule" is the rule of conduct that Jesus taught to Christians during his famous Sermon on the Mount. You can "read up on it" in the Bible at Matthew 7:12 and Luke 6:31.

[TenderFantasy]

@Kasabiian There's no irony. Even without religion, I am sure you can empathize with people. Like you wouldn't steal or kill would you? As you wouldn't want to be stolen from or be killed/have a loved one killed. I know I am simplifying things but there's not much choice with this question really. And yeah, life's more complicated than that but I was trying to simplify it to make it easier for the everyday person to understand.

[Nadim171]

Yeah, ofc. No one goes around killing people on a daily basis. But let's say you have to frame your co-worker for some scandal to get him out of the company, it is the only way you could replace him. It would significantly increase your income
Would you do it?

[Kasabiian]

Again, where do you think the "Golden Rule" comes from? When you say "it's not about having a religion or believing in God" and to back up your point you quote the famous rule of conduct that Jesus taught to Christians, it is the epitome of irony.

[Kasabiian]

These are Bible principles that you are quoting, whether you realize it or not. They are from God, that he gave to humans for our benefit (Isaiah 48:17). And that is why they work, they are perfect. Even non-religious people will benefit from applying them.

[TenderFantasy]

Honestly no. I would just tell him the truth. No manipulation/lie would be needed there. People are adults, they should act like it or be able to accept the truth that they are incompetent with their job/etc.

If you do something dirty. It might eat up with your conscience in the long run. Ever heard of the poem 'Tell Tale Heart' by Edgar Allan Poe? It's the same thing. You'll always be thinking about it from the back of your mind. Especially if it's something big. However you wanna justify it, it's still wrong/immoral what you did point blank. And if it doesn't come back to bite you in this life, maybe in the next it will.

[TenderFantasy]

That last reply was for Nadim171.

[TenderFantasy]

@Kasabiian I didn't know there was a quote in the Bible for that. I don't read the Bible but regardless, I think you get my point. I do know about the Ten Commandments however.

[Kasabiian]

Right. So, the Golden Rule captures the spirit behind the 10 commandments.

“All things, therefore, that you want men to do to you, you also must do to them. This, in fact, is what the Law and the Prophets mean."

In other words, the Golden Rule sums up a basic tenet of the 10 commandments: love of neighbor.

Interestingly, when Jesus gave the Golden Rule, he was speaking about how to treat not only people in general but even one’s enemies. (Luke 6:27-31, 35) So, the Golden Rule encourages people to do good to all.

The world would be a much better place if people applied God's principles, no?

[TenderFantasy]

@Kasabiian Sadly, that's the problem with this world. There's too much free will, and some people with free will, either don't know how about the Golden Rule, or don't believe to follow it because hashtag idiot. That's what contributes to the unfairness of life I think, in a big or sad way. Unfortunately, life ain't simple like we wish it to be.

[TenderFantasy]

Also hastag evil, not just idiocracy.

[Blackcosmo]

You do not need to be religious to be a decent human being. There are some things that just shouldn't be done.

[Nadim171]

Empathy is not the same as morals though.

[Blackcosmo]

Yes I know. I wasn't referring to empathy. For example people shouldn't steal. It's immoral and you don't have to be religious to know that.

[Nadim171]

Yes but why should we be moral?

[Blackcosmo]

Because it's just the right thing to do. Even if I wasn't religious why would I kill someone? We have a sense of what's right and wrong with a brain so why not use it? If we all didn't use our head this world would be an even worse place.

[Levin]

God doesn't exist already in most so called advanced liberal Western democracies. The overarching philosophy we have now is something akin to scientific materialism or scientism.

Society hasn't broken down, yet.

What we have is a confused, frightened, easily led lot, that beneath the surface are scurrying around for some kind of meaning. They put far too much faith in authorities and institutions.

The dogged arrogance of many is spellbinding. And will take some truly world shattering event to break through. We may not be too far from that moment...

There's a lot of cynicism, psychopathy, and mental constructs of the likes here on display. And a dismal cold obsession with thought (see Jordan Peterson). But beneath it all there is an inner goodness in many. The world is not so bleak as we imagine. But our focus is important. Most people build their world reality on the basis of what they have been educated with, the education system, the TV and social media. This is their truths but it is but a fragment of reality.

[Anonymous]

There is no reason to be moral if you're not religious"

Spoken like a sociopath.

Look, I'll keep this simple since you're clearly very young and stupid.

Smarter people than you have figured out that morals are best for society. Religion was invented to help stupid people have morals when they couldn't figure it out for themselves.

There are a lot of people in the world apart from you. Let's say you have something. If there are no morals the chances are very high someone will steal your stuff. You can steal it back, back and forth, and waste a lot of time but you're basically outnumbered. Same with your life. The odds of someone killing you go way up if there's no morals. Yes, you can kill someone but it's more likely someone kills you.

The logical sensible rational thing is for society to treat everyone in the way that's best for the society. I've simplified this but literally thousands of books on moral philosophy exist should you be so inclined.

But leaving that aside, you ignorant psycho, most normal people have empathy. Even as an atheist I already rape and steal and murder as much as I want - that amount is ZERO. I don't need fear of an invisible man in the sky or fear of being caught to stop me being a cunt. It's just the right and smart thing to do.

[Be3Bee]

Okay, let's talk nature.

Why are ants, bees and other social insect able to dominate their niche?
Could it be because of their cooperation and "moral" behaviour among each other yet remaining ruthless to any outside threat?

Why are bacterial biofilms much more successful stage of life than free floating planktonic bacteria?
Could be be because individual cells in biofilm cooperate in order to better survive their environmental threats?

When there is an intraspecies cooperation, the species has easier time facing outside threats than when each individual has to keep out for both external and internal threats.

[Nadim171]

The mafia is not an organization that most people would call "ethical" yet it still has strict rules. You can't kill a member's wife or children for example. This is simply to make members feel a little safer. I'm not against rules, some rules are better respected.

[Be3Bee]

Ants and bees are willing to sacrifice their lives for the sake of the Colony. Members of a herd will defend younglings even if they are not bound by any rules or moral codes just because others would do the same for their offsprings and because those herds that didn't defend their young eventually died out.

Fun fact: Ants don't eat their dead even if they don't have any rules or ethics that would forbid that.

[monorprise]

Such is why you don't generally trust people who do not believe in divide intervention.

There will be many situations and positions you might find yourself in where you may not be caught or held accountable by anyone but God.

The chief executive of a Government, or supreme court 'judges' are for example generally in practice unaccountable at least temporarily, although potentially forever if they were to soo choose.

If they don't have some basic believe in accountability beyond yourself you shouldn't be trusted by others for the reasons you've given.

[Chazmatazz269]

Morality is the only essential part of religion. The rest is just mythology. Without a fundamentally agreed upon value system and the morals to adhere to it, society crumbles. We’re seeing it happen in the US. As people conflated morality with religion and we removed not just religion from our laws and statutes, but morality itself, we’ve allowed deviants and heathens to take advantage of the system we’ve created. And i’m not just talking about felons here. The criminally greedy fat cats bilking the working class and puppeting our elected officials have done more to destroy this country than any plethora of common criminals ever could.
We need morality to recognize that and choose to change it. The fact that we don’t is proof enough that morality has become an obstacle in the west. And we’re all doomed for it.

[Anonymous]

The why is in choosing who you want to be.

You avoid being 'evil' because you dont want others to realise that you are 'evil', I avoid being 'evil' because I dont want to be 'that guy', it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks or knows about me, what matters is what I think and know about myself.

Is it all just kind of a game and a complete waste of time which only gets in the way and never helps you?

Yeah, probably, but I still play the game, why?

Because I am not a fucking psychopath.

So, do the right thing here and go and kill yourself before you hurt a real person.

[Nadim171]

The funny thing is that people think machiavellians are bond villains who want to destroy humanity and kill people for fun. It's just nonsense. I try to help people when I can and when it costs me little to do so. If I can get what I want without screwing someone else I do that. Most of the time the manipulation and deception is done to people who themselves also do these things and are in competition with me. That's the game, it's not any more immoral than winning at a soccer game and getting the prize at the cost of the other players who lose the money.

[Opinion Owner]

Of course its different you fucking muppet.

There are rules in both games.

You seem to think that if you dont get caught then you didn't break the rules but that is obviously not the case.

You also seem to be mistakenly under the impression that morality is born out of religion when in reality morality is inate to humans and stolen by religion.

If you dont know right from wrong its because you are a psychopath.

Also we are talking about real life here, not badly written stories.

[Nadim171]

What you're referring to is empathy, which is an emotion. There is no rational reason to be moral. Empathy is an emotion and acting out of emotions isn't always beneficial to you.

[Opinion Owner]

Correct, being a moral agent is not always beneficial to you in the short term or in the moment, the pay off is dependant on placing value on not being a total cunt.

It is the nature of being a sentient being, understanding that you are an actor or agent in a wider world, learning about it and yourself.

You define who you are through your beliefs and actions.

So this is not about other people, it is about you.

Liars, cheaters, thieves, thugs, rapists, murderers and other assorted cunts; do they potentially make gains in the moment, in the short term, yes, but is the value of that in the long term, over a lifetime?

It is a drop in the ocean.

Also humans do not value things which come easily, it is the achievement which makes something worthwhile.

[Nadim171]

Life is more like a game. My goal is to win at all costs. There is no moral code in nature.

Thieves and thugs are losers. They waste all their energy on small battles that in the long term always destroys them. Bankers, politicians, businessmen and charlatans are just as unethical , but within the boundaries of the law and carry much safer lives and have a higher social status.

[Opinion Owner]

And winning means what?

[Nadim171]

Becoming wealthy, powerful, connected and leaving a legacy.

[Opinion Owner]

Money doesn't buy happiness, power born out of fear is brittle, you won't be connected with anyone of quality and the other sociopaths aren't going to help you and as for legacy you will at best be remembered for being the cunt that you are.

I will return you to the option of killing yourself, you won't be remembered for it but its the best outcome you can hope to achieve.

[AndrésC64]

Nope. We are a social species as are many other animals. We all do better when we get along as do other animals. Getting along includes not stealing each other's stuff not hurting or killing each other, Etc. It's called empathy.

[Nadim171]

That's a big misconception right there: machiavellian people lack empathy. That's not true. In most cases, sociopaths suck. Because they're so obviously manipulative. Without empathy you can't understand the emotions of others and relate to them and thus can't successfully manipulate them.

[AndrésC64]

But like I said, we are a social species. If everyone were Machiavellian we wouldn't survive.

[Nadim171]

True. I wish most people don't know the truth!

[ElementoP]

Agreed. Fuck morals. Most of the time people don't actually believe the garbage they tell everyone so they can look like a decent person and be accepted, but inside they're nothing but a lonely stupid fucking talking monkey

[TheoPfeifle]

"Somewhere along the way, we lost sight that to harm nature is to harm ourselves."

I'd like to expand upon this quote... Take out "nature" and insert "our environment." This could be social environment, even. Being amoral is harmful to others... Indicating harm to the social environment... And in return, harmful to you.

[MrJMM]

Morality is doing what is right regardless of what you are told, and being religious you are being told what to do regardless of what is right and wrong. Being an atheist is a matter not of moral choice, but a human obligation. Morality is the act of doing what causes the least amount of harm to others. Christians say that morality is dictated by God but the act of doing what one demands is the definition of submission, not morality.

[AndrésC64]

Well said!

[TransAm85]

Oh so that's why u kids today drive carelessly, can't hold the door open for an old person, never say thank you, just minor human things like that?

[Nadim171]

There is a difference between not being a moralist and not being civilized. Civilized doesn't mean moral. The romans were the most civilized people, but also the most brutal. We might as well rbe decent while battling each other

[TransAm85]

The Romans were also occultists. If u believe in that stuff, that's u, but at least have some manners for the next person u c in public. It's not our fault u have some warped mind.

[Nadim171]

I always do. I'm a civilized person. Especially to beautiful ladies such as yourself

[Guy13]

You still know the difference between right and wrong and have a conscious that guides your actions. You are intelligently designed this way and do not need a religion for this…

[Nadim171]

Really? Why is that?

[Guy13]

Because you defined both what Moral and religious ARE and are NOT in your synopsis... YOu know they exist or you would not be able to deny a Condition-such as Religious. To say you are NOT is to say that IT IS... and you are aware of it !!!

[MCheetah]

Because it's easier to get what you want in a society that cooperates with each other, than in a society constantly at war with each other and killing each other.

[Subarugirl]

Because morality and religion are not synonymous, you can be religious and be immoral, you can moral and not be religious.

[NathanDavis]

you want do act like a try-hard...

but chances are that your mom still washes and changed your bed sheets...

[jshm2]

Stay in school, you dimwit. You're not ready for the real world yet.

[Nadim171]

Care to explain why, old man?

[I_Can_Help]

Because doing something to someone that you wouldn't want done to yourself is a natural thing most people try to avoid. It is innate.

[LordOfThePines]

So I can live my life and enjoy it without harming those around me. I don't need a religion to do it, even if I do have a religion.

[duttyjamagyal]

Killing your baby in an abortion definitely is the opposite of what you just said, deadbeat

[LordOfThePines]

@duttyjamagyal You do realize I am wholly incapable of having an abortion, right? Or do you refer to me supporting my partners choice and preferring her happiness, life and well being over a potential future person?

But aside that, it is sometimes necessary in life to cause harm in order to protect ones life and future. This counts.

You can call me whatever you wish, that's your right. But there is no need to be rude about it to a total stranger.

[duttyjamagyal]

And I don't give a shit if you're a stranger, you're literally pretending like you are some good person. Not causing harm to those around you while in the back your mind after fucking ur wife silly, your planning to kill the child conceived from it. That's a terrible horrific thing, and you have to justify it to urself by pretending like the whole reason you're having An abortion doesn't exist, aka the child. Abortion kills children, admit it and then we can have an honest conversation

[Nadim171]

@duttyjamagyal you won't like my last question lol

[duttyjamagyal]

I don't like any of ur questions predator

[Nadim171]

@duttyjamagyal wtf I'm not a predator.

[Nadim171]

I told u I'm not even gay

[duttyjamagyal]

You don't have to be gay to prey on little girls now do you

[Nadim171]

@duttyjamagyal no but I said I wouldn't go for a girl younger than 13 and I prefer older women anyways

[duttyjamagyal]

Going for a girl that's 13 is being a predator, big boy

[Nadim171]

@duttyjamagyal no she's pubescent and can produce an heir

[duttyjamagyal]

Bitch my sister was 9 when she got her period, she could produce an heir too and I was 11 when I got mine

[Nadim171]

@duttyjamagyal yeah but 13 just to be sure. But it's kinda more expensive cuz I gotta pay for her school too. Only problem is that a middle aged woman might not produce an heir

[duttyjamagyal]

What about someone around your age creepy weirdo

[Nadim171]

@duttyjamagyal too normal for me. I want to date a 45 yo.

[duttyjamagyal]

R u a Saudi

[Nadim171]

@duttyjamagyal no lol

[LordOfThePines]

@duttyjamagyal Just like that, you're done here. I will not waste my time with the needlessly toxic.

For the offensive commentary, I will ask @SecretsofKB to review your conduct.

[FunkyMonkee]

Why? What purpose does it serve? What does religion have to do with morality?

[jamesgoldman]

Because in this business it's as much as the currency you use and the quality of your merchandise