Question for believers. If God exists, how can he be uncreated?

[Julie4]

[nightdrot]

Not sure I follow the question. "Uncreated?" If God exists, he is eternal and thus was neither created nor "uncreated" - whatever the latter means.

Indeed, I argue that God exists because something o be created must sand outside Creation to create it. Thus, as G. K. Chesterton wrote, “It is absurd for the Evolutionist to complain that it is unthinkable for an admittedly unthinkable God to make everything out of nothing, and then pretend that it is more thinkable that nothing should turn itself into everything.”

The paradox is that the atheist is as extreme in his way as is the religious fanatic. Because the atheist sees evil in the world, he jumps to the conclusion that there must therefore be no God.

This presents two problems. First, if there is nothing but the impersonal forces of nature and the laws of physics, then there is no free will. Every thought, every action is predetermined by the intermix of molecular and physical reactions. Nothing can be other than what it is.

The problem then becomes that your belief that God does not exist is then also a simple biochemical molecular reaction. You came to the only conclusion that your physiological structure predetermined you would.

However, if that is true, then your conclusion is no more valid than the opposite conclusion. It was simply the luck of the draw of your brain's electro-chemical reactions and you end up in an intellectual hall of mirrors.

In that connection, atheism tends to premised on a rejection of the idea of God in the absence of proof of His benevolence. This leaves the atheist effectively rejecting only one vision of God - namely the Judeo-Christian version. In truth, there are other conceptions of God. (For example, the ancient Greeks believed that the gods were arbitrary and capricious.)

The second point is that if everything in the universe must have a beginning, then logically something must stand outside the universe to start the universe itself. Chesterton's point stands and is a reflection of Aquinas' view of God as the first cause of all things.

The funny part is that the atheist argues that the universe is more complex than religion. Yet their own explanation is, itself, an oversimplification. Order does not spontaneously come from chaos without something outside itself to impose order. Similarly, if all things existing must start, then something must exist outside of it to start it.

Yet the atheist's problem remains. That the order of existence came from chaos absent something to give it order. It just happened - with the caveat that we don't know how - but it happened within existence because existence is all there is.

That is a presumption - and a problem - for atheism. If man can be uncreated, what keeps him "created"?

[Julie4]

You write " I argue that God exists because something o be created must sand outside Creation to create it. "

Explain to me how such a thing would be possible?

[Julie4]

I just note that so far no one has given me an answer to this simple question.

[nightdrot]

On the latter part, it is not a simple question but requires a definition of your terms. What does it mean - "uncreated." Typically we "create" or "destroy," we do not "uncreate." This may be a translation issue but it requires explanation.

As to the former, name a thing that creates itself. You were created by the joining of your mother and father. You did NOT show up spontaneously. Ditto, the sun is made of elements that were driven together in a balance that facilitated its' ignition.

In each case, there was something or somethings outside the thing that facilitated the creation of that thing. Now that the whole universe - EVERYHING in it to the smallest electron, proton or neutron - and explain how that all happened, the artful balance of gravity, chemistry, all the rest, and explain how it formed.

Plus we see order in the universe. The term we apply is the physical laws of the universe. Name a law that occurs absent reason to balance it out and order it.

That is my point. There need be a thing that creates that order. Something that transcends time and space and has the intellect to form time and space and the power to cause action in time and space. This is what God is.

This is the evidence of God based on what we know of extant reality. As finite beings we are limited in how far we can explain the infinite. However, of what we know of the finite, the existence of the infinite can then be inferred.

[Julie4]

It doesn't really answer my question, in fact my questions.

How can God not have a cause for his existence? How can you explain that? What's more, why did he create all this and how?

[nightdrot]

He does not have a "cause" for his existence, He stands outside material existence and therefore is not bound by the rules of the material existence He created. As to wh y, He created existence refer to Genesis.

That all said, I am not sure how familiar you are with the writings of Augustine and Aquinas - and later Chesterton - but they can answer in detail some of the questions you posed here. Suffice to say, with questions this large, you have a bit of reading to do. (Frankly, I am not sure we have the space here to get into the detail you need for some of your answers. You are sort of asking for 2000 plus years of answers while sanding on your head. I have tried here to summarize the argument, for the detail you seem to be seeking, you might be better off reading the three men I mentioned.

Also, what the heck, consult a priest or other religious figure in your area. These are good questions and have been asked for hundreds of years and you have always struck me as a very intelligent and dispassionate thinker. So follow up.

By the by, you did not answer my question - what does "uncreated" mean?

Hope all is well.

[nightdrot]

P. S. Sorry for the type-o's. I seem to be having some problems with my keyboard lately.

Have a good weekend.

[Julie4]

Oh no problem 😊

Uncreated means that has no cause to its existence.

You say " He stands outside material existence and therefore is not bound by the rules of the material existence He created.. "

How is such a thing possible? It's like talking to me about science fiction.

To be honest, I personally believe that existence is meaningless and fundamentally absurd.

I've never read Augustine etc. but since it's your advice, I'll read it.

I hope you and your family are well

[nightdrot]

Okay, I highly recommend both Augustine and Aquinas.

As to your views on existence, that is called nihilism and you may wish to look into its' implications. Recall Chesterton's line, "When men stop believing in God they don't believe in nothing; they believe in anything." Thus was born, Fascism, Communism, National Socialism and a host of other, so-called "secular religions."

Just a thought. Have a good weekend.

[Julie4]

I will read his works with great interest, but I doubt he can explain to me how "God" can exist outside the laws of physics. It seems incomprehensible, at least to my human understanding.

Which books should I start with?

But once I've read it, I'll say what I thought of it.

Well, that's where I differ, I assure you, I don't have the soul of a Nazi, and communism doesn't appeal to me.

In fact, that's where the philosophy of Albert Camus offers some interesting insights. He who is the philosopher of the absurd ( Camus ) will not fall into nihilism. On the contrary, he was a member of the Resistance, fighting against Nazism during the Second World War, he also fought against Communism and was a great critic of the French Revolution...

[Julie4]

Oh good weekend to you too. I guess your son must have a baseball game, if so I wish him a good match 🙂

[nightdrot]

The book I recommend is The Summa contra gentiles. Not an easy read, but it discusses EXACTLY what we are here. He also wrote what is called "The Shorter Suma,. Honestly, I have not read that one, but you might want to give it a look just to save some time.

As to your second point, well, you have Camus, and hen you have actual historical experience. The chaos of revolutions that tore down established belief systems opened the gates to filling the void. Indeed - now don' get mad at me here - but the French Revolution opened the gates to Napoleon less than democratic empire. Bloody wars and all the rest to follow.

However, for now, let's leave that. Read Aquinas and we will take it from there.

As to he last point, my best to your family, first. Second, nope, baseball season, - professional and Little League and high school - all does not begin to April. So we have a month to go before we have to put on our weekend (and some evenings) running shoes.

Hope all is well. All the best and happy reading.

[BaronReagan]

@nightdrot

Thank goodness you told her to put that aside, because I'm sure she was in the middle of writing a long essay on Napoleon. I once had the misfortune of criticizing Napoleon, and I ended up with a 10-page report.

As for God, I hope she'll eventually come to believe in.

[nightdrot]

@BaronReagan Yes, I understand. However, be patient - she is a good lady and loves her country. As far as her atheism, that is really the culture in most of Western Europe where - as I am sure you know - church attendance and religious belief are at historic lows. There are historical and sociological reasons for that, so her views don't surprise me.

The only thing I can add is that if anyone will make an honest effort to wrestle with the arguments, it is @julie4.

Still, I appreciate your comments. Thanks so much.

[BaronReagan]

@nightdrot

No problem at all. here in Turkey, we're still a society where religion is very important. However, among young people, this tendency is declining, and in cities with a "Western" influence, such as Izmir, religion, although in the majority, is also declining.

[RyanEC]

I don’t know personally.


It seems a question beyond my understanding but I’m not Christian, more of a deist like Voltaire.


Is this the main reason you are an atheist Julie?
Did you have any religious upbringing while growing up?

[Julie4]

Yes it's the main reason why I'm an atheist lol. No, I didn't have a religious upbringing.

Thank God, you're one of the only ones to have understood that Voltaire wasn't an Atheist but a deist,

[RyanEC]

That makes sense since religion has been in decline longer in France then in America so I assume your parents weren’t religious as well.

I knew a little about Voltaire including that.

In America at the the Protestant Christians are pretty anti philosophy and intellectual so they tend to put them in the same group.

[Jessica405]

Destroy any and all documentlation mentioning anything to do with religion.

Destroy any arttifact this is connected to religion.

Do not teach every child about religion

When there is nothing left, including memories and thoughts, all gods will cease to exist. Our minds will be cleansed of all religion. Gods only exist in the minds of people.

[sean1234]

Actually mam, that happened in France long ago and the chaos ended to make a long story short when God and the bible were brought back.

[Jennz6]

THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO “JOHN”

1. In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was with GOD, and the WORD was GOD.
2. HE was in the beginning with GOD.
3. All things were made through HIM, and without HIM nothing was made.

[sean1234]

how can he be uncreated?

UN-created? He is the alpha and omega, the beginning and the ending, the creator of the universe. He has always existed and always will exist. Those who are with Christ will always exist also with new bodies on the new earth that will not die, but thats another story.

[Julie4]

How can God not have a cause for his existence? How can anything exist if nothing caused it to exist? It just doesn't make sense. It defies logic, reason and common sense.

[sean1234]

Yes, which came 1st... The Chicken or the Egg?

The chicken still exists if it doesn't lay the egg. However the egg can't exist without the chicken already being there. The question though is who created the chicken? That would be God.

That being said...

For God to have created himself is a paradox just as to go to the past and kill your own grandfather before you were born would be known as the grandfather paradox as in doing so and you would not be born to kill your grandfather.

-This is one of those taboo subjects to take into heart to believe in God, that he always existed AND think of why and how no more. One could go crazy and has if im not mistaken.

[sean1234]

Do you believe in God?

[sean1234]

It's just a very human understanding to see God's existence as you who were brought into existence, but God is God, he created everything. For there to be everything that exists for all time, there has to be someone who has to exist for all time before that to create it.

[Joshydavid25]

He would have to had been created to be uncreated.. Which is impossible for a being that has always existed.. He exist without the need for space and time, all things which he created.. So to sort of answer your question he can't be uncreated..

[Julie4]

If it's not uncreated it's created lol.

And how can a thing have no cause for its existence? It defies logic and common sense.

[Joshydavid25]

It's actually very logical.. Because then you go down the slippery slope of well what created the thing that created God, and so on and so forth.. It's logical for something to have always existed to create.. Our minds are finite and live within time, so of course we couldn't understand some always having existed.. Even thinking about it, kinda discombobulates you..

[Julie4]

Haha to be honest with you, for me it's all bullshit. But I respect

[Joshydavid25]

You just said it's all bullshit right in front of me, so that means you don't respect it.. 😂😂..

[Julie4]

, I respect your belief, because it doesn't bother me.

But yeah for me God is an invention of man lol.

[Joshydavid25]

I'm sorry Julie, that's not respect calling it bullshit.. You just mentioned to me logic and reason, and then throw it out the window with that statement.. I'm not offended just throwing that out there..

It wouldn't make sense for something to have created and created and created over and over again.. Time, space, and matter coming out of nowhere deciding to explode and somehow creating life is B. S to me.. That doesn't make much sense.. But to each their own..
Also most cultures are religious or have faith and look to a higher power.. Man has a natural inclination to worship something more powerful than themselves.. There's a bigger case for God than you care to realize..

[Julie4]

Science doesn't exactly say that matter, or more precisely that the universe, comes out of nowhere; it's more complex. Science recognizes its own limits and, over time, makes it possible to explain more and more things.

As for God, who would have created everything (without telling us how, why etc.) and who himself has no cause for his existence (we're not told how such a thing would be possible either), well, that just seems surreal to me.

[Joshydavid25]

You're right science doesn't say that because science doesn't say anything.. The big bang and the macro evolution are as observable as God is.. But they don't exactly explain where it came from.. Well you got the "Multiverse theory" but like the Big Bang and God it's not really anything close to being observable.. Which means you have just as much faith as I do. 😂..

If a being exist in Eternity and is Omnipotent then that would mean they would know things that we can't possibly comprehend.. Which you a re displaying at this very moment.. You can't comprehend a being just always existing.. Thinking that it has to have a reason, a beginning and an end.. But then again no human even fully understands our own body let alone being able to understand an Infinite being..

[Julie4]

Save that, once again, scientists recognize their limitations, and the more time passes, the more scientists can prove things.

Religion merely asserts, but never proves anything. And if we know how the human body works

I ask a simple question and so far no one has been able to answer it, to explain it clearly to me, the only answer I have is the following ( as human beings we are limited and we can't explain everything) it's an easy answer but in the end it doesn't explain anything.

[Joshydavid25]

Obviously they don't because of their assertion of a big bang, and multiverses.. All of which cannot be proven because their not observable.. Even Evolution.. Macro Evolution to be exact, is not observable.. So you guys are putting as much faith in the beginning of the Universe as we are in God..

Well a lot of scholars and archeologist recognize a lot of historical validity in the Bible for example.. Maybe not all the Supernatural stuff, but we can't really prove that..

As for your question, that's because it doesn't really have an answer.. Also no offense Julie but, the question in of itself is not really a logical one.. That's just like asking, "how can you make your butthole into a an eye".. Sometimes you just gotta except that human being no very little and can't explain everything.. You couldn't even explain everything about yourself to me..

[Julie4]

Here we go again. Religion affirms , science doubts, and recognizes its limits. But it progresses and improves.

Your example of the eye and the ass is completely messed up lol

You're telling me that no one can explain to me how God has no cause for his existence, why God did all this etc., but that I'm the one who's crazy for not believing in God?

I feel like a blind man telling me I can't see properly lol.

[Julie4]

To be honest our discussion is going in circles lol.

I'll never convince you, and you'll never convince me. I don't think there's any point in continuing this conversation. 😅🤣

[Joshydavid25]

Of course Science it just the observation of the natural world.. Religion tries to explain why the world is the way it is from a less natural perspective.. I'm not putting science down, what I'm low-key saying is The big bang and Macro evolution are not far from a religious belief.. Meaning it's not so much science..

Yeah it was a silly example I apologize for that.. It should've said that you question is more like "What does the color Blue smell like?"..

No, I'm not calling you crazy, you're right to question anything you want, but what I'm saying is that the question doesn't make sense, and is not coming from a place of trying to Understand but more of a "Gotcha".. It's just the age old question of "Who created God?".. God is not created or caused, he simply exists.. Your explanation of your question also assumes either that humans made God and so we could just explain his origins or that if God is real, then his believers should know where he came from and why he exist.. But like I said, it's a question that hasn't and never did make sense and is not really asked in good faith many times.. You didn't really ask it to discover any truth, it seemed more like to prove a point.

[Julie4]

Your understanding of the Big Bang theory is poor, because scientists etc. use the word 'theory' and they themselves say it leaves lots of questions unanswered.

"God is not created or caused, he simply exists" ok and how is such a thing possible?

I'll save you some time, you can't explain it to me. And that's the problem with religion, it just says that things exist, and that we poor humans, because of our limited reason, can't explain.

Honestly, that sounds like intellectual laziness to me. But it's an easy solution.

In the end, God is for me an invention of the human mind, and always will be. Men have created God to reassure themselves. I don't mind.

[Joshydavid25]

See? Your explanation about How science can't answer everything is in direct contradiction to your question about God.. Your accepting that science doesn't have all the answers, but want an immediate answer about God.. Which shows that the question was never asked to actually understand but just the same atheist question of "Who created God?".. Also no, I have a decent understanding of what the "scientist" say, you haven't been able to explain to me why I haven't..

It's possible because he lives in Eternity, time is a concept he made, it doesn't apply to him.. An all powerful being doesn't have a cause for his existence..

No, you're trying to act as if we should have all the answers to the existence of God.. Plus, you are already bias.. You have a presupposition in the first place.. You're just basically saying you never believed in God and can't understand why people do.. Which is fine.. It's not laziness it's basically saying "we don't have all the answers, and even if we did, we doubt we could actually explain them"..

If it's the God from the Bible that's far from just any "assurance".. LOL.. It's too orderly, and there's too much debate around it for it to just be a man made thing for assurance..

[Julie4]

Ah, and how could he live in "eternity" and what exactly is eternity? And it still doesn't answer my main question, how can God exist without a cause? And no, saying he's outside time doesn't explain how that makes such a thing possible.

Nor does it answer the question of why God would have created all this, for what purpose, and above all, how could he have created all this?

Yes, because science eventually has the answer. There are plenty of things that science couldn't explain 3 centuries ago, but which it can explain today.

As for religion, whether I ask this question 300 years ago or ask it again in 3,000 years' time, there'll still be no answer.

[Joshydavid25]

Eternity is a metaphysical idea of infinity or unending.. The origin of the word comes from Latin meaning without beginning or end.. It simply means God doesn't have a beginning and he doesn't have an end.. How is that possible? We don't know that's where faith comes in.. Christians specifically believe that God will reveal that when he feels we are able to understand.. Just like we don't know every about the Universe but you have faith in science that it'll reveal that soon enough..

We don't know that either.. Once again those are questions we can't hope to answer nor does anybody say they have the answers.. Once again you're looking for people of faith to have all the answers but can accept that science doesn't..

It actually doesn't.. It doesn't answer why we're here, and how chaos created order, it doesn't explain our appreciation, or our need a higher power or moral order.. Not philosophy either.. It just explains the natural world to a certain extent.. Which I can appreciate, but I don't put it on more of a pedestal than it needs to be.

Like I mentioned that's because the question doesn't make sense and it's not asked sincerely, it's asked just to say "Ha, you guys can't even explain your own God, or to try and be tricky" Not accusing you of doing that, but just saying that that's what the question is usually asked for.

[strateguy632]

who said uncreated? is that in any scripture?

god is infinite time so did not need to be created. always existed in infinite past.

if some source has word, uncreated, it means "creation was unnecessary", not like never born.

even math has the idea the infinite line. and on an xyz graph of time, possible infinite time.

[Jennz6]

@strateguy632 did you read the Bible?

[strateguy632]

@Jennz6 yup, never said that term.

[strateguy632]

do a bible search, not even once in bible ever... nor described god. someone fooled you.

[tremendousfern]

Thomas Aquinas talked about this. God is the prime mover. Thomas Aquinas was a Christian philosopher who drew inspiration from Aristotle. Aristotle also talked about the concept of an endless being that brought all other things into existence hundreds of years before Christianity.

brief summary of the topic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unmoved_mover

[tremendousfern]

Reading some of your discussions, I've noticed you asked frequently "How can God not have a cause for existence?"

Let me flip the question around. If God was created, what created God? And then what created the thing that created God? Etc. If all things were created by something else that means there was no beginning to existence because you could look infinitely far back in time and still find something that existed before and created it.

But existence does have a definitive beginning and for that to be the case there had to be something that brought the first thing into being that itself was not created. That thing is the unmoved mover, the uncaused cause.

[Kaneki05]

Not a believer but the answer is simple if we follow the belief god can do anything he can simply uncreate himself.
Which would be pretty funny. Come forth thy Universe and now I shalt taketh my leave. Yeets himself out of existence.

[Al_Musafir]

Literally everything is created by someone. For every creation there has to be a creator and the difference between the two should be strictly distinct. Even the first ever thing to be ever created has had a creator that Is, ALLAH.

[RavVid]

I thought it was a matter of tricking God into saying Yahweh backwards.

Or for people to be really so incredibly bad he uncreates the universe. That's the bit we are worried about isn't?

[BCRanger10]

There has to be an uncaused cause, otherwise you end up with an infinite regress.

[strateguy632]

precisely.

[DJB72]

God exists outside Time. Anything created has a beginning, and an end.

God created time, space and matter as a trifecta.

[loveslongnails]

Here we go again: "If God can do anything, can He create a rock He can't lift?" LOL

[strateguy632]

exactly that isn't even a real question.

[genericname85]

"because he just is, don't test my faith with logic" *plugs ears and runs away yelling: "mimimi can't hear you"*

[AngelLily]

The Thing is If God is internal Aka forever then He Will always exist.

[Mettbltt]

the creator is not created, he creates

Don't think of God like a human

[Julie4]

How can God not have a cause for his existence? How can anything exist if nothing caused it to exist? It just doesn't make sense. It defies logic, reason and common sense.

[Mettbltt]

Do not think of God as if he is from this world, God is separate from time and space

[Mettbltt]

God was not created because He always existed and He is outside of time and God is the one who created time

[Julie4]

That doesn't change the original question: how could such a thing be possible?

[Mettbltt]

The created cannot understand the creator absolutely and completely.
we can't understand this

[Julie4]

Wobbly explanation lol

[Mettbltt]

Think of a fish, its intelligence is not enough for anything.
Human intelligence is at a certain level
But not enough to understand God

[Mettbltt]

I don't care if you don't like it. hahaha

[Mettbltt]

Even though religions are full of nonsense, I think there is definitely a God.

[Julie4]

I have a better explanation. It's all bullshit, God doesn't exist.

As Einstein wrote

"I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the object of his creation. I can't imagine a God who would regulate his will on the experience of mine. I will not and cannot conceive of a being that survives the death of its body. If such ideas develop in a mind, I judge it to be weak, fearful and stupidly selfish."

[Mettbltt]

I don't think God cares much about rewarding or punishing us.

[Mettbltt]

But I definitely believe that there is a power at the head of everything in this world and the universe.

[jahaims]

Something needing a beginning and or an end is a human concept.

[gorydetails]

Of course not. How can an omnipotent God be uncreated?

[Hispanic-Cool-Guy]

God can't be touched. He will always be glorious and powerful by His very nature.

[laly520]

oh
predictable
saw it coming a mile away

[KostasKouvalis]

He can't

[Jennz6]

@KostasKouvalis Yes HE can

[OtterMan68]

He can't