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I'm black and have lived all over the South and have family from every Southern state.
First of all, I have never seen a black Southerner with the Confederate flag, contrary to some other accounts here, and, yes, I have lived in Georgia (went to college there).
Second, I have never seen a good explanation from someone who is into that flag about it being about Southern Pride and not racism. As a Southerner, I have never felt I needed the Confederate flag to be proud or to show pride in being a Southerner. You can show it in so many ways that insisting on a divisive flag is sketch. Also, like with white people who talk about being proud of being white and wanting to know what's wrong with that or why that's not "allowed," I similarly don't understand why people need to feel proud of Southern *history*. Frankly, I don't understand being proud of things you can't help, whether it's race or birth region or whatnot. But I know that if my history were full of atrocities done to other people, I would especially not be running around talking about I feel proud. In fact, I am very mixed with white, more so than black, and feel zero pride or connection with that race and its history, including the Southern history. That's partially why I only identify as black.
*I'm not saying it's wrong; I'm saying I don't understand.*
Bottom line, I can see being proud of where you come from TODAY, like you were born way after the Confederacy existed... I just don't get why you need the flag for it or are proud of the history, and the fact that you do/are is what makes it suspect, to me. I had a white Hispanic hit on me one time, and I went to his Facebook page and saw the Confederate flag as his image. Even if I were interested in him, that'd be an immediate NO--you are immediately letting me know you're racist, in my mind, regardless of what you say or do in person. And yes, I completely agree black people create more headaches for black people than anyone else does, but that doesn't mean racism doesn't come from other directions and that the flag is not some type of symbol or indirect expression of racism from others.
In response to the "other accounts here" since I'm one of those I just thought I'd offer you an example. little John is the first one that comes to my mind. He's from Atlanta I believe, and in my highschool years he was huge. It was everywhere then, even with adults that I knew. That's just one example.
images.complex.com/.../...72CAC47B93FEA_nr86r1.jpg
In Georgia I have seen and still see several black people wearing and even flying the confederate flag.
I don't have a problem with the flag. I don't view it as racist. However, I realize that some people do, and that it makes them uncomfortable, so for myself I don't wear it or fly it because I don't want to make someone feel uncomfortable.
And as much as I don't see it as a racial thing, people who don't understand the history do see it as racist and I absolutely hate racism so I don't want to be thrown into that category especially since we work with a lot of youth who are many different races.
I was trying to find a good link, I breezed through this one, but it's interesting.
what do you think of someone walking around with swastikas?
@BobAndWeavr that it's their right.
My friend is stationed at Fort Benning and he said in the south is rather fascist and they view certain behavior as white and acceptable and other behavior as black and awful
I really hate to see this argument that "black people wear them so it can't be racist"
it shows a big lack of understanding of how the plantation system worked and maintained power for so long and still affects society today. the ideas were indoctrinated. standards of white superiority were established - no; standards of white normality were established. this made people less than human for being anything but that. this was very strongly ingrained by giving white indentured servants more privilege than mixed house slaves who in turn had more privilege than fully black enslaved Africans.
it is the reason black girls wear weaves that make their hair look more like their "white" peers. it is the reason why a white person with locks is "earthy and in touch with nature" while a black person is "ethnic" for doing the same thing. it is the reason why there are laws saying you can be denied a job for wearing locks in any way regardless of how neat they are but there are no restrictions on other less tidy hairstyles. it is the reason so many black people in America distance themselves from other black people and pander as much as they can to their white friends as a way to seem more worthy on the social ladder. it is the reason that most slave rebellions failed; enslaved Africans reported the plans to their masters almost every time. it was early a surprise to the white slave drivers.
@BobAndWeavr that's not an argument just an example of how much of an "issue" it really isn't. It's only become one in the past few years with everything going on in our country and to be honest since everything has been deemed as racist. Not since 2001 maybe have I personally noticed it, and even then that was pretty local to my town only which at the time was indeed pretty racist. That has changed a lot.
And to be honest here, not to step on your toes but I disagree with your statement about a lot of things but definitely about why black people distance themselves from other blacks. Are you from the south?
The teens here especially, largely still stick with their own race. Whites, Blacks, Hispanics. So much so that in working with them we have to force them to mix it up and communicate. Even then it took us sitting them black, white, mexican, black, white, mexican. Adults will do the same. Now that's okay, it's a similarity, it's familiar, so that makes sense, but it happens.
@BobAndWeavr and I disagree with them trying go be white. In 2017 I think it's more about style and their own likes, which are theirs, and not because of something that happened in the past. There is also a huge movement of embracing your natural, which is great. That sounds like a victim mentality almost, and everyone has been a victim before. We've all been through things.
@spoonman2014 maybe in some parts.
I'm not from the south but I did live there a few years. I'm not American at all. I've just spent a lot of time studying the slave trade, plantation system and governance in the America and the Caribbean. I've lived in Georgia and Barbados and did a short historical stint in St Kitts.
@neverrrmore I'm not saying that they are trying to be white. in fact I'm even suggesting that it isn't conscious at all. I am suggesting that a beauty standard has been established as objective, universal beauty. this has been set to be in line with white attributes. so even though when you ask anyone about it they would say "me trying to be white? that's preposterous", the fact is, what they think is beautiful is being white.
@BobAndWeavr well I'm not sure how I feel about that honestly. I'd have to think on it more. But if that is truly how they feel, that's very sad and unfortunate.
I believe we have a picture of one somewhere in my house because some great great grand whoever fought in the war. I would never openly display one though and the first thing that comes to mind when I see one is trashy white redneck lol. My dad on the other hand would not have a problem with it because he goes straight for the history/heritage aspect.
Me too
It's racist and I'm white. Anyone who says it's about heritage is a liar.
Why r u racist? What do u get out of it?
Why is the flag racist? I don't know OP give us your excuses
lol but America had slaves before and during this war
to all of those saying it's not racist, what do you think of erecting a statue of Hitler and displaying swastikas in memory of that world war?
@Mrhistory404 I dont thibk its racist.
@Mrhistory404 And it was racist wan't it?
@BobAndWeavr Id be fine with it.
was not , there cheif was the one who sold them in the first place. hell the irish white slaves cost less and were treated worse anyways
@BellePepper☝☝☝☝
right... I'm just gonna step away from this.
good
@Mrhistory404 There was no such thing as "Irish white slaves". There were Irish indentured servants. Two VERY different things. And yes. This country was racist before and during AND after the Civil War and still is.
@BobAndWeavr That's what they want you to do
there was irish slaves
@Mrhistory404 There were Irish indentured servants. Just like there were English indentured servants, Welsh indentured servants, and Scottish indentured servants.
bullshit , there were slaves also
@Mrhistory404 No they weren't.
its not a meme
@Mrhistory404 It's exactly a meme since the very first picture is of coal workers not slaves.
but ya know if ya dont want to believe it then fine. this history was a long timeago. many years have passed to manipulate the minds and stories it has generated. but remember this the blacks wernt the only ones as slaves
@mrhistory the fact is that the Irish and Scottish were not slaves. they were indentured servants. they were sent for various reasons such as debt and crime. they lived in shitty conditions but it was just impoverished living with harsh working conditions. if you think what they faced was slavery then I think you are grossly overestimating the quality of life that enslaved Africans had.
Scottish were sent more to the Caribbean while Irish went to the states
ya know if ya dont want to believe it then fine. this history was a long timeago. many years have passed to manipulate the minds and stories it… [+]
@Mrhistory404 Honey you don't even know history so maybe you should take your advice and learn some.
The reason the southern states seceded from the union was slavery. So considering the right to own slaves was their main political program, the southern flag is most certainly a symbol of this approval of slavery.
That being said, I don't really care if people hang it up on their own property. I find it silly but hey, whatever gives them pleasure. I'm sure there are people who fly the nazi flag on their property.
I don't think it should be hung up on public grounds though. Or if it, the local governments would have to allow all kinds of other flags too. It's a bit like those fundamentalist christians in Kansas who put a monument of the ten commandments on public grounds but when the local muslims wanted to do something similar, they got all cranky about it. Allowing one and discriminating against another would be a clear violation of free speech. So either you could give everyone the right to dump their ideological baggage on public grounds... or - and this makes more sense - you simply keep public places empty and neutral.
The star spangled banner can of course be there because it's the official flag.
The American flag flew over slavery AND the genocide of the Native Americans for 75 years, but nobody says anything about that lol.
That's a good point. And there's a lot more blood and dirt sticking to the US flag than from slavery and the genocide of the native Americans. But for better or worse, it's still the official flag, so proposing to get rid of it would not get you anywhere. In the end, I personally just don't care so much about flags. Like... it's a piece of cotton. I just don't get why people get a boner over their favorite flag. I certainly wouldn't fly my country's flag in my garden, let alone a flag that symbolizes hatred. I think if you're proud of your community or your state or your country, there are better ways to express that. For example I was active in politics for some time. It doesn't have to be this, however. It can also come in the form of volunteer work or donations or whatever. I just think that trying to change things for the better is more patriotic than parading a flag in your front yard.
I just like the irony of it being honored in the same country that it rebelled against not to mention by the self-proclaimed patriots.. also that is not the conservative flag, thats the battle flag of army from Northern Virginia.
The actual flag looks like this
1st iteration:
media.vocativ.com/.../...merica_1861-1863.svg_.png
2nd iteration: (or the stainless banner for its pure white.. racist anyone?)
www.vectorportal.com/.../Stainlessbanner_1726.jpg
3rd iteration: (since the earlier one was too close to a white surrender flag ironically)
theflagshop.net/.../third_confederate.gif
I love the Mississippi state flag
From a pure design perspective its not actually a very good flag and from a historical perspective I doubt it will exist for much longer... Granted state and county flags in USA is almost universally terrible. My "favorite" is the country flag of Pocatello.
99percentinvisible.org/.../...ello-proud-to-be.jpg
Notice how it both have a copyright and a trademark symbol on it. That is just priceless.
Opinion
25Opinion
u I am proud of my Southern heritage and, for me, the flag symbolizes that heritage. I have ancestors who fought (and some who were killed) on both sides of the war; I am not reliving the war.
I think this and many issues are about a minority group trying to exert control. "See what we and our liberal white friends can make you do." That attitude engenders automatically engenders some resentment. If the flag was not attacked, it would die a natural death; its opponents help to keep it alive.
My family background is all southern.
Should Germans keep banners of the swastika on their houses?
A flag only has a meaning that people give it. If people say it's racist then it's racist, if people say its southern pride and not racist then it's southern pride and not racist. The people who say it's racist might have read this quote
15130-presscdn-0-89.pagely.netdna-cdn.com/.../Confederate-Flag-Design-701x392.jpg
However the people who say it isn't racist have seen African Americans proudly flying the flag.
www.tomsmithcamp.com/tomsmithpics/news02.jpg
It's all a matter of perspective. My personal opinion is 50/50.
Me too.
Well I think once a flag has been tied to big historical events it has a certain meaning and not just the meaning that people give it.
www.theflagshop.co.uk/.../...sing-sun-flag-std.jpg
For instance if you would go to korea with this flag people wouldn't be very happy about it.
If a black person wants to accept this flag it's their choice but for me I think there's too many negative things tied to this flag and you can show pride in many ways.
You could use the flag of your state etc. I don't see why you'd want to chose this specific flag unless you really wanted to show your true colors so to speak or you didn't care about the slavery aspect which is also kinda weird. Flags do have meanings in my opinion you can't just say I want it to mean something else if it already has a history.
@Lynx122 Not every Korean finds it offensive, it only the older generation that fin it offensive. The meanings of flags can be changed. The JSDF uses a similar flag to the rising sun flag yet nobody really cares.
upload.wikimedia.org/.../...Defense_Forces.svg.png
It depends on who displays it. A guy who has displayed racist or supremacist thoughts? He's flying it because of its past use in the confederacy and KKK and it's got an anti-race purpose. If it's a guy who just likes it because he's proud of his southern heritage and because it suits his life then it's fine.
Most definitely racist. It is widely accepted that people who walk around wearing swastikas are demonstrating racist agendas. why would this not also qualify as the same? We choose appropriate symbols to remember history. The current American flag is also a symbol of and historical relic from the same war. why is that not used as the historical appreciation symbol? if I erected a statue of Hitler would I be "simply remembering the Holocaust"? So why is it appropriate to carve a statue of the most influential Confederate generals into Stone Mountain? The symbols we choose state the side we are on. anyone who claims otherwise is either a liar, intentionally ignorant or hasn't thought it through.
Appropriate symbols include broken chains, the US flag, something depicting the end of the Mason Dixon line etc
I personally like it for the looks. I think it looks better than our regular flag.
I also like the British flag too with the X on it.
What I don't like is the very common design of many modern flags that are either 3 vertical or horizontal stripes. Those ones seem too plain and boring.
As far as getting upset over seeing a flag flying, that only happens when a flag of another country is flown in our country. Like the Mexican flag in California.
How would they feel if Germans flew the Nazi flag?
At least the Confederate flag is of our own country.
Exactly
I have been wacthing interviews with creator of "Life after hate" and former racist skinhead Christian Piccolini and he said the violent skinheads you saw in the 80's and early 90's are taking a more conservative approach and things like the rebel flag and "make america great again" are very racist in nature, they are not puting it out here like they used to. They are just hiding it better
Also the south is very fascist in nature I was told. They see certain things as white and acceptable, like country music, manners and certain things as black and terrible like rap music and being rude. That is why you see blacks who listen to country and fly the rebel flag at times
If its a symbol of southern heritage how about the southerners who fought tooth and nail against the confederacy and died in the service of the union, all southern states had multiple union loyal regiments,
It's not even he confederate flag. It's a specific battle flag.
The confederacy was mainly about the preservation of slavery.
After the civil war nobody flew this flag for decades till the civil rights era. At that point a bunch of Dixiecrats began flying it as a racist 'fuck you' to reformers.
While plenty of people have genuinely bought into it just being 'yay south' it's entire point was racism both times it began being flown.
I find this funny because you have forgotten the fact that the USA has supported slavery eversince it was a country. even before the civil war and continued it even during the Civil War in southern states that stayed with the union. hell , Missouri and west virgina didn't even stop slavery until 1865 ,
and they were yanks !
plus thats the confederate naval jack "battle flag" not the actual final flag that we decided on as a whole for the CSA. plus this was a fight for state rights. because after this conflict federal law trumped all law. Lincoln wanted to send all blacks to south America, after the war but was killed. any blacks living in union territory were forced to fight as meat sheilds and any captured were forced to fight there home or be shot on the spot.
so if you still think it was purely over slavery then fine then but dont you ever forget that peoples ancestors died for that cause "fighting for state rights "what we need now , entire last names were wiped out by this horrible bloody war. so next time look before you step
At the end of the day i don't really give 2 shits about the flag. It doesn't affect my day at all.
Some say its a loser's flag since they lost civil war. Some say it's southern white's heritage. I don't know, it's an American internal affair. I have not enough knowledge to judge.
I would have said racism until I watched Ken Burns' documentary on the civil war. Ken is a life long liberal who contributed to the obama campaigns, by the way
It stands for a time when people acknowledged the reality of race instead of trying to obscure it at all times.
I don't care about the confederate flag. I don't support it and I'm not against it either.
I've never really been bothered by it and the civil war was along time ago.
I couldnt care less either way. Symbols and pieces of clothe mean nothing to me
I love it's we're am from an I have pride in it #thesouthwillriseagain
I couldn't care less about it. I don't condemn it and I don't support it.
People just wanted to find a reason to show hatred, why pissed off because of a flag?
give feelings of power
its about southern pride and their heritage
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Its a damn flag. Being offended by it is childish.
i mean its a damn battle flag. its a flag used for battle...
sexually attracted
step on it and burn it
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