Iowa man sentenced to 16 years in prison for burning an LGBT flag! Thoughts?

[ZeussLightningBolt]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/iowa-man-sentenced-16-years-004039544.html?fr=yset_chr_syc_hp&type=yset_hpchrbanner

So for those of you who don't want to read the whole story, the jist of it is, a Hispanic American stole an LGBT pride flag off a church and burned it outside a strip club.
Initially he was only supposed to do 1 year, but the judge slapped on another 15 for "hate crime"

Apparently Mexicans burning American flags is fine, but Americans burning LGBT flags isn't.

Updates

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[BeeNee]

Once again, people really need to do better fact checking as this story needs some major clarification. Adolfo Martinez, the flag burner, didn't get 15 years JUST for stealing and burning down the LGBT flag and making threats, he got that long term sentence because he already had two previous FELONIES and by Iowa state law, is treated as an habitual offender. In that circumstance, his criminal history tripled the maximum available sentence for arson from five years to 15 years. One should generally avoid committing crimes, but repeat felons all know, in many states, it's 3 strikes and you're out...15 years worth of out in this case.

[BeMuse]

Arson covers real property such as a house, a building, or land, and personal property such as car, boat, or airplane. The fire typically causes substantial risk or physical harm generally endangering lives. Burning a flag isn't arson. He didn't go to the church and try to light the church on fire. He burnt a flag he stole and lit it on fire in a parking lot. shm...

[BeMuse]

Basically burning the flag is like open burning of trash or leaves where there are ordinances that prohibit it. That sort of situation is typically penalized by a fine of like $50-300 depending on the municipality.

[BeeNee]

@BeMuse

The Crime of Arson Defined

In its most basic sense a person commits arson when they knowingly, by means of a fire or explosive:

Damage any real or personal property of another without their consent; or
Damage any real or personal property with intent to defraud an insurer.

In this case, by law, he stole another's property, the church's flag, and lit it on fire. He did not light his own property in some random parking lot. Martinez had caused a disturbance at a local bar and THREATENED TO BURN DOWN THE ESTABLISHMENT before returning with an LGBT rainbow flag he stole from the Ames United Church of Christ, and setting fire to it outside the bar. Following that, he admitted to his crimes in an interview with a local tv station. Now if someone tells you they plan to burn down your house, and then return five minutes later lighting stuff on fire and threatening you, you're telling me, you'd shrug that off? Any rational person would have called the police ASAP. Case in point, at my university, a student stole a campus flag and they filed criminal charges and expelled him from school. Theft, arson, or both, these are crimes.

[BeMuse]

Here is the actual Iowa definition as set out in the statutes 712.1

1. Causing a fire or explosion, or placing any burning or combustible material, or any incendiary or explosive device or material, in or near any property "with the intent to destroy or damage such property", or with the knowledge that such property will probably be destroyed or damaged, is arson, whether or not any such property is actually destroyed or damaged. Provided, that where a person who owns said property which the defendant intends to destroy or damage, or which the defendant knowingly endangers, consented to the defendant’s acts, and where no insurer has been exposed fraudulently to any risk, and where the act was done in such a way as not to unreasonably endanger the life or property of any other person the act shall not be arson.

Are you arguing that he had the intent to destroy a solid piece of pavement with fire? lol

2. Causing a fire or explosion that damages or destroys property while manufacturing or attempting to manufacture a controlled substance in violation of section 124.401 is arson. Even if a person who owns property which the defendant intends to destroy or damage, or which the defendant knowingly endangers, consents to the defendant’s act, and even if an insurer has not been exposed fraudulently to any risk, and even if the act was done in such a way as not to unreasonably endanger the life or property of any person, the act constitutes arson.

[BeMuse]

712.2 Arson in the first degree.

Arson is arson in the first degree when the presence of one or more persons can be reasonably anticipated in or near the property which is the subject of the arson, or the arson results in the death of a fire fighter, whether paid or volunteer.

712.3 Arson in the second degree.

Arson which is not arson in the first degree is arson in the second degree when the property which is the subject of the arson is a building or a structure, or real property of any kind, or standing crops, or is personal property the value of which exceeds five hundred dollars. Arson in the second degree is a class “C” felony.

712.4 Arson in the third degree.

Arson which is not arson in the first degree or arson in the second degree is arson in the third degree. Arson in the third degree is an aggravated misdemeanor.

At worst the flag was worth more than $500, but flags are typically like $30. Thus by Iowa law third degree arson is about the closest you could come to arson and that is a aggravated misdemeanor and that's even stretching the law.

[BeeNee]

@BeMuse I really think you're missing the point here. He didn't get 16 years for arson. He, by his own omission gladly committed a hate crime, stole another's property and had previous felonies all of which led to the extended sentence for something at max he would have gotten 5 years for. He could have stolen a candy bar and potentially gotten ten years. Three strike laws are meant to say to repeat offenders, enough is enough. If you can't live in civilization without repeatedly committing crimes, then by all means, off to jail you go.

[BeMuse]

Let me quote you twice:

"his criminal history tripled the maximum available sentence for 'arson' from five years to 15 years."

"I really think you're missing the point here. He didn't get 16 years for 'arson'."

You are waffling... Game over.

[BeeNee]

@BeMuse Yes. I quoted the news story to say that people are making this story out to be that this guy was overly sentenced to 15 years JUST for arson. It's not just arson that got him 15 years, it's the accumulation of previous crimes and arson and the third strike laws not to mention the hate crime.

[BeMuse]

Yet I posted the actual laws from Iowa and his actions don’t meet the criteria. What it looks like they did to push through the over charging is first, classify petty theft and vandalism as arson due to fire being involved even though there was no intent to destroy a solid piece of pavement (over charge). Second, they treated the incident as a hate crime because the flag was rainbow colored even though there was no individual attack involving violence (over charge). Then they utilized the over charge of a hate crime to bump up the aggravated misdemeanor charge of third degree arson (which was already an over charge) to a second degree charge of arson to get it to a class C felony. From there they utilized previous convictions to triple a felony charge (to over charge again). So they layered over charging three times in a row to get to their actual charge. It’s straight up abuse of the law because the DA and the judge are bigots towards straight people.

[ZeussLightningBolt]

I was having this same debate with another poster.
Arson only applies to buildings, land and vehicles.
Under YOUR definition, burning phone books in a campfire is considered arson.

[Kaneki05]

This guy did mutiple acts of crimes and let alone a guy can get 10 years in jail just from intent or threat to kill someone which would be so if he threated to burn down a building with people which is even worse.
So for that alone he could get 15 years nevermind all the other crimes he did.

You can argue about arson laws all day long but muitple crimes make longer sentances and esspacilly threat to life.

[slatyb]

Thanks for that information. The linked article was far from the whole truth.

[SwordShield]

Oh shit, found out I'm a pleb normie. Thanks for this.

[ChefPapiChulo]

We have many GaG lawyers on this site

[Tyme1313]

@BeMuse
You’re an imbecile, if someone bought the flag, it’s real property. Anything that isn’t intellectual property that is owned, is real property.

[MajesticTwelve]

Ok so the theft isn't a great idea, but according to law burning a flag is freedom of speech. So does freedom of speech not apply to it just because "my big gay feelings got hurt?" Insanity. They should appeal, it's unconstitutional. I see all you LGBT saying "OMG HE'S LITERALLY HITLER" But what happens when it's your turn? The pendulum is swinging back against you whether or not you realize it, and when it does, do you want to do 16 years for participating in a pride parade? Probably not.

[ZeussLightningBolt]

You're getting MHO

[ZeussLightningBolt]

"My big gay feelings"
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

[SwordShield]

F in chat

[Tyme1313]

If you burn your own purchased flag, it’s freedom of speech. If you steal someone else’s flag, and burn it it’s theft and destruction of private property. If you steal someone else’s flag and burn it near a building which could risk a fire, it’s theft, destruction of private property, and arson. If you steal someone else’s flag and burn it in front of a build as a direct statement to disparage those inside by doing so, it is a theft, destruction of private property, arson, terroristic threats, aggravated assault, harassment, and a hate crime.

Under the law, context matters, if he had bought a gay flag and burned it out the side walk in-front of a gay strip club, it’s a protest. The most he may get is a fine for biting something like that which could be a fire hazard. But his actions leading up to burning the flag, the intent behind it, and where he burned it, changed the charges.

[Tyme1313]

*for burning something which could be a fire hazard.

[Trolloween]

I don't think anyone should be imprisoned at all for such a petty crime. Whatever flag it is shouldn't matter, its a piece of cloth that had a small monetary value. He should have been fined the cost of the flag plus a more hefty fine that gets donated to the lgbt community, seems a good punishment to fund what you hate and then some good comes from it. What good comes from jail? Not a single thing in my opinion, but imagine if he was court ordered to watch a pride parade he had to pay for... Hilarious

[ZeussLightningBolt]

Lol
Good idea

[OlderAndWiser]

I am opposed to special punishment for "hate" crimes. If someone murders me for my cash, because of jealousy, to steal my car, because I get in the way when they rob the bank, or because I am a Christian, the result is the same: I'm dead. The harm caused is the same, and the additional punishment is added because of what the perpetrator "thought" before killing me. Why is hating me for being Christian, or Caucasian, worse than hating me because I am standing in the way of their bank robbery?

[FakeName123]

It's worse because else the insane left can't push their authoritarian narrative. Their socialist dream doesn't function any other way but through a seize of power. Fortunately people are waking up and starting to stand in the way of this more and more.

[Lliam]

I agree with you 100%, OlderAndWiser

[ZeussLightningBolt]

I couldn't agree more
To me, a crime is a crime. Why it automatically worse simply because it was motivated by bigotry?

Ridiculous

[Tyme1313]

The concept is Mens rea, it is one of two terms used for prosecution and defense. Actus reus is the legal term for the “action,” i. e burning the flag. Mens rea, is the “intent,” did he intend to burn the flag, or in the case of “hate crimes,” why he burned the flag.

Mens rea is common in all crimes, the concept of hate crimes is made up purely of Mens rea.

[razelove]

I don't think they're slamming him for burning it, but stealing it. You can slap hate crime onto anything, but there has to be a crime first. Like I can yell anything I want while I shoot someone in self-defense, as defined by law, but if I kick their corpse or something, the moment is over, there is a crime to slap additional charges onto. America has twisty logic, but it's crucial to understand it.

[ZeussLightningBolt]

I don't think someone should be charged with a hatecrime unless they physically harm someone or commit arson

How come the Mexicans who burn American flags are never charged with anything

[razelove]

Because we're so damned enlightened it's a symbol of pride to burn the very flag that let's you burn a flag. I don't get that one either and it disgusts me when people do it. It disgusted me when they overturned the laws on stolen valor as well, nothing more fun then beating the shit out of one of those shitbirds for resisting a "citizen's arrest" until the cops come and get their shot since they're mostly ex-military too. Hate crime is something that makes no sense to me whatsoever. How do you commit a crime against another person unless you hate them? It's a political ploy. Again, twisty logic that's crucial to understand in US law.

[ZeussLightningBolt]

"This can only be described as a hate crime. Someone hates me."
- Dale Gribble

[razelove]

Heh, that about sums it up, I love Mike Judge... Idiocracy reads more like a documentary than fiction unfortunately :/

[MzAsh]

Oh yeah he should definitely do time.

[ZeussLightningBolt]

He should do time, i agree, but 16 years?

[Tamera952]

Please he won’t do all 16

[ZeussLightningBolt]

@Tamera952 The way the US justice system is set up, you're probably right

[sawno]

Then you should get a tempoary ban for offending me by the same logic.

[Daniela1982]

Why should he do time when burning the American flag does not get anyone even a day in jail?

[fuchit]

The damn judge should do time. He obviously hates Hispanics. So hate crime his ass, right. Let's see, whose next? You people are fucked up. You want to take away a person's freedom for simple vandalism. 2nd degree assault and battery carries a Max of 1 year in my state. That piece of shit judge is destroying that guys life to get votes or push his agenda. Pull your heads out of your asses and grow some thicker skin you fucking pussies. "Sticks and stones" sheeple.

[fuchit]

I guess he should have just set someone on fire. 'bout the same punishment.

[MzAsh]

He should just set himself on fire.

[ZeussLightningBolt]

@MzAsh, WHY? 'Cuz he doesn't have the same views as you?

[ZeussLightningBolt]

If he sets himself on fire, there will be one less Mexican around and I thought you Liberals LOVE Mexicans

[TheLawAroundHere]

I dont exactly know what to think here. The U. S. Supreme Court decided that burning the American FLAG... as a sign of protest... was legal. This rainbow flag is a symbol that identifies a group. Not a country or state. A group.

Disrespectful? Yes. Illegal? Not according to the highest court in the land.

Keep in mind that im an average white fat American who does not want to offend or exclude. So please note that when i say "gay guy", i mean every initial of the LGBTQEIEIO people.

If a bunch of gay guys* want to secede from the U. S., they can. Block off, i dunno... Delaware. Thats the gay guys Mecca now. Ok great. The gay guys win against the largest armed forces that have ever been on earth. So they now control all of Delaware. The gay supreme court rule that burning their rainbow flag is worth 16 years in prison. Great. Im all for it. Like that kid that got caned in Singapore. You are in our house, you obey my laws. I totally understand.

But thats not the case. An organizations symbol was torn down and set ablaze.

This is not to be taken to heart. So calm down:

Would i receive the same 16 year sentence if the next time the girl scouts are set up by my local grocery store to sell cookies... and i yanked their troop flag down and burned it. All while screaming about how much i hated the girl scouts?

[LuvMeSomeBoys]

As @OlderAndWiser points out, the “hate” component is not really the issue even though the media focuses the piece there. It’s criminal conduct. His motives don’t matter, even though it’s an aggravating factor. Martinez has a significant history of reckless and dangerous conduct that the piece fails to mention. Whether or not the sentence is appropriate is not for public opinion to decide. It’s for the courts which weighs all the evidence, and takes all of the factors for extenuation and mitigation into account.

[ZeussLightningBolt]

I agree. A crime is a crime. I don't see why it's considered worst just because it was motivated by bigotry.

[ObscuredBeyond]

If it were his own flag, that's free speech. Maybe recklessness, if he endangered a building by where he lit it. If not his, then petty larceny. A Medal of Honor for standing up to the prolapse cult started by that pedo fraud Kinsey, but misdemeanor charges for stealing property. A year in jail at most.

Giving him more than vehicular manslaughter just because the picnic table screwers had hurt feelz? Absolutely preposterous.

That judge should be thrown off the bench.

The bigger crime is gay rapists in the Navy who've knife to neck blackmailed their victims into a reverse perversion of Don't Ask, Don't Tell, being allowed to lobby to name a warship after the most prolific serial child molester in American history. Yet, the USS Harvey Milk is a thing.

[ZeussLightningBolt]

I agree with you
Larceny and maybe creating a public hazard AT MOST!

But hate crime? No way in hell is this a hate crime

[ObscuredBeyond]

Britain is even more Clown World than this. A whiny loser who's probably omnisexual but is of Chinese dissent got butthurt by some rock band at a live concert for their cover of "Kung-Fu Fighting " - which they previously covered in live shows every single year with zero incident. But this time, all the band members were arrested for "hate speech," because one little pink hat wearer "got offended. "

How did Sir Wanks-a-Lot ever survive watching Kung Fu Panda, with a cover by Cee Lo Green in it? #clownworld

Meanwhile, machete wielding maniacs in London are handled with kid gloves.

[ZeussLightningBolt]

They arrested them?
Oh my fucking God!
I thought this crazy shit would end with Teressa May out of office

[ObscuredBeyond]

Labour party members don't care about the law. They enforce their own ideology instead. They lose the election, and still behave like they won it, becauthose who voted against them are "too stupid to deserve to have their wishes honored." The arrogance and lack of perspective is everywhere. They even blame their own expensive debacles on the Toey party. Never mind that it was Labour stonewalling and acting like US Democrats that got the policies rammed through in spite regions having Tory dominance. It's no different than local areas in the US run for decades by Democrats sinking into ruin, and blaming all of it on Republican majorities on Capitol Hill.

But you try to explain this logically, and Labour loyal voters in the UK become only slightly less hostile than black ghettos in major US cities that are still loyal to the DNC. Nietzsche had a point: Men hate it when you destroy their illusions.

[NightFlirt]

Well it just goes to show just how stupid people are. The creators of the game Shadow Run had the right idea.. Written in the back of the main book was the following message "Please feel free to buy and burn as many copies of this book as you wish!" Burning a flag, or a book does not harm anyone so why should anyone care? I'd rather see them burning a flag than a Lesbian, Gay or Transperson. The worst that should have been done was slap an air pollution fine on them.

[ZeussLightningBolt]

EXACTLY! I agree 100%. How the fuck is this a hate crime? He didn't assault anyone.

[NightFlirt]

Don't get me wrong, hating someone or something that is doing you no harm is wrong. I am only saying that I'd rather bigoted, people would keep their homicidal tendencies focused on inanimate objects without using it as a line of intimidation.

[sawno]

Finally a real liberal in the comments

[NightFlirt]

@sawno Nope no liberal here, I am a G D I

[sawno]

What is a GDI?

[ZeussLightningBolt]

What's a GDI?

[NightFlirt]

G*d Damned Independent

[sawno]

Not like that, in america the liberals are authoritarian socialists! communists. When i say real liberal i mean someone who values liberty.

[NightFlirt]

@sawno Ah well by that definition yes I am a liberal. As Patrick Henry said "Give me liberty or give me death."

[sewyseal_]

16 years? Disgusting as hell. How about we lock up the people who should actually be locked up (like the child molesters and rapists who constantly run free on the streets) and give this guy a few months? Lgbt supporters constantly whine about how much they want "freedom of expression" and then cause this dumb shit like make up your mind

[ZeussLightningBolt]

Yeah, they can fly THEIR flags on government buildings but straight people can't fly THEIRS?
And like LGBT people have never harassed straight people.
It happened on a college campus recently, and one time my dad made an appointment to a gay dentist on my mom's behalf, he was all "teee, teee, teee" over the phone, because he thought he would be working on my dad.
He was FURIOUS when why mom came in, and almost broke her jaw.

[JackPreacher]

If it is just for burning that flag, that is the level of insanity we have reached, I agree with you burning the American flag is OK for crazy people to sit in the bench and rule over us, where is the freedom of expression when it come to burning flags according to the liberals and feminist (new feminist) that judge should be the one slapped in a jail for the same amount of years hopefully in a jail cell in Cuba, Venezuela Russia (hopefully in Siberia) or in China. One of those wonderful places where people do not have freedom of expression.
Most important now is to realized that they are willing to use their position to make of all of us criminals and punished with crazy sentences...

[Annarae]

16 years is just extreme. Goung yo jail is even more unecessary. Other things coyld have been done to punish him. This whole thing seems unfair, are they trying to say that the LGBTQ+ community is more important than anything else?
I admit he was wrong, but what's the point in sentencing someone to over a decade in prison because of a hate crime. Something doesn't sound right.

[Annarae]

Going to*

[ZeussLightningBolt]

LGBT people have become a protected species.
If they don't back off, they're gonna become an endangered species

[Annarae]

Species?😂😂 I agree

[ZeussLightningBolt]

LOL
Oh, you're Jamaican, so you know what's up. :p

[Annarae]

You can say that I do.

[ZeussLightningBolt]

https://youtu.be/xCrhfXjIEvY

The only uncensored version of this song on YouTube got taken down
They used to play it on US radio stations without knowing what it was about. Lol

[Annarae]

Whenever we speak about fish, chi chi man or batty man we mean gay people. Its because of the creole we got away with it for so long until they begin to realize what's it about.

[ZeussLightningBolt]

The other two I knew, but fish too? Lol

[Annarae]

I'm not a hateful person but my country does not really tolerate homosexuality. The men love the women too much.😂

[ZeussLightningBolt]

I know
Pretty much the entire Caribbean is like this

[Annarae]

Yes, and in Barbados it's bulla. Lol, have to be careful what you say around us.

[ZeussLightningBolt]

I've been to Barbados and i thought it was "batty boy" there

[sejla]

Seems excessive even if you add the possible destruction of someone's property because of orientation. When he gets out he's going to hate LGBT people more than now. There has to be a better way to deal with the crime than 16 years. Is there a missing piece that is not mentioned in this article?

[ZeussLightningBolt]

Well, a couple people in the comments said they found articles stating that he had priror felonies, but even in THAT case I feel 16 years is too much

[sejla]

I"d say if he had a pattern of violent crimes then that should be taken into account but from what information that was given no one was harmed physically. Maybe in the property thing it was shown to be a threat. It still seems excessive unless there is way more information out there. I have a feeling this case will be reviewed and adjusted. I mean Mark Wahlberg in his younger years was anti gay and beat up a guy and he changed his ideas after the years. I'm not saying this guy can be fixed but it seems like throwing away the key unless there is some fear that next time he might kill someone.

[ZeussLightningBolt]

Yeah, Mark Wahlberg beat up gays, blacks and Asians and now he can't co run his brothers' burger business because of it

Liam Neison also said his friend was raped by a black guy and he walked around with a baseball bat for two weeks looking to "kill a nlgger"

So yeah, people can change.

In the US we have something called the "three strikes law"
If you commit two felonies, then do something as simple as steal a slice of pizza, you'll get thrown in the joint for 25 to life
It's a dumb law that really needs to be reformed

[sejla]

I guess I thought that was only in California the three strike law.

[ZeussLightningBolt]

I know we have it in California for sure. But I guess other states have similar laws.

[JackPreacher]

I was thinking the same maybe there is a piece missing in the article...

[Dragonqueen03]

ALRIGHHHHHHTTT i support LGBTQ+ Alotttt butttttttttttttt 16 YEARS IS WAYYYYY TOOOO MUCHHHHHHHH!!! like i read a case where a girl murdered her parents and younger brother, she got out in 8 years with probation. LIKE AHHHH he should get like a year MAXXXX

[ZeussLightningBolt]

I agree
No more than a year

[Dragonqueen03]

Yessir

[chriscdi]

this is showing how sensitive our society has become, people can't express their opinions anymore, the only thing that he did that deserves time would be the crime that he stole something from a church and probably arson the guy is homophobic and doesn't like gays, giving him so much time for "hate crime" shows how stupid the law has become, they focused on his opinion instead of the actual crimes.

[chriscdi]

he doesn't agree with homosexuality, and he burned a gay flag, the problem here is that he stole a flag and burned it, i personally wouldn't have considered this a hate crime, i dont even believe hate crime should be a thing unless the crime is serious like killing someone or injuring someone.

[ZeussLightningBolt]

EXACTLY! I agree. It's his right to hate LGBT people if he wants to.

[Phoenix98]

So let me get this straight burning the American flag, the founding flag of our country that countless men and women have given their lives for is fine even though desecration of the American flag is actually against the law due to the flag desecration act. But burning a rainbow flag will net you 16 years in prison?

What the fuck?

[ZeussLightningBolt]

Pretty much, yes
I thought burning the American flag was protected by the first amendment

[Phoenix98]

I just went and looked it up, no your right it wasn't successful but there was an attempt to pass the flag desecration amendment. It should be illegal in my opinion, desecrating our flag your flag is like spitting in the face of everyone who came before you and all those who died and bled to ensure you have what you have now.

I don't think you should burn the rainbow flag either but burning the American flag should be the thing that nets you in prison if anything.

[scooogy]

At our university the LGBT people got to the point of haunting heterosexuals and still nobody said anything. That's this bias of "you're against me if you're not for me". I mean I don't even know what I must be all against since I didn't come to agreeing to whatever diversity groups came up during the past 2 years. Just hope I don't get sentenced for "being against something by not agreeing".

[ZeussLightningBolt]

I was labeled a homophobic bigot for posting that I was grossed out by those two gay guys making out on The Amazing Race

Apparently now Liberals are dictating how my brain and body should react to certain sights

[D_Bone_Steak]

I hate this hate crime bullshit... if it was the American flag, he'd probably got diddly squat.

The left wants more to come in because it will hell the votes... they don't realize though they're religious generally... and don't appreciate the same shit the religious right doesn't. I'm not surprised the tax paying ones that have citizenship secured are going to vote Trump 2020.

Meanwhile the village idiots are dancing around in joy for impeachment when the house vote for it isn't even being submitted to the senate yet...

15 years... this country has gotten so fucked up and stupid as a whole because this bullshit division of this or that. A damn child molester would be charged with less, but a rainbow flag is what's more important and puneable?

Clown world

[hellionthesagereborn]

That's illegal. They can't do that, that's a violation of the first amendment and on top of that has legal precedence (in the burning of American flags as it was found to be legal under the first amendment). He better take this as high up the courts as he can because that is utter bullshit. I'm not anti LGBT (just anti bullshit that many of the "progressives" spew), but he has every legal right to do that (stealing the flag however is illegal and that is destruction of property but any law that claims "hate crime" is simply illegal).

[BCA6010]

So here's my opinion: burning a flag, whether it's our flag, another country's flag, or a flag that represents some non-state organization should be protected as freedom of expression/protest/speech whatever. Period. End of story.

Now, burning the US flag (as an American) makes you look like an idiot since you'd be burning the very symbol of your right to protest.

Personally I think this guy is going to have a very easy time getting this one appealed. It was stupid to even jail him for it in the first place, and the punishment is absurd for what it is. People have gotten off easier for manslaughter.

[Carbon-12]

So I didn't read the yahoo article... because it's yahoo. But I did read about it on the BBC.
He was first kicked out of a strip club. Then stole the pride flag hanging on the church. Burned it infront of the strip club threatening to do the same to their building. On top of all this he confessed, and proceeded to explain how it was a privilege to be doing the "lord's work".

In short I think 15 years might be a little long, but I think he definitely deserves it.

[ZeussLightningBolt]

Okay. Thank you for posting that. It's always good to have other sources.
But I still don't think he should be getting charged with "hate crime"

[Carbon-12]

In his confession he said he "burned down their pride, plain and simple".
If anyone should be being charged with hate crimes it is this man.
If hate crime laws should be a thing is a different argument.

[ZeussLightningBolt]

And what exactly did he mean by "pride"?

[Carbon-12]

He burned a pride flag. They were celebrating gay pride at the church by placing a pride flag at the entrance. He burned it down.

[glutendan]

This has absolutely nothing to do with the crime. If it did he'd just pay a small fine. This is about sending a message that if you dont welcome sodomy in this country and allow it to be perverted they will to to any length to put you down.

It's a sign of a dying country.

[ZeussLightningBolt]

Pretty much yes

[talloak]

Speaking as a liberal, I find this utterly unacceptable. I wouldn't deem this as a hate crime and certainly not as arson. I don't have a problem with the reckless fire charge but that wouldn't be much of a punishment.

[ZeussLightningBolt]

Glad to see you're not all brainwashed
I agree with you. Larceny and creating a public hazard, at MOST

He'll probably only do a year though. No way in hell will this stick. People get less time for far more serious offenses

[talloak]

I hope you’re right for justice sake.

[broken_heart_at_48]

I'd say it's a bit much to hit him with the 15 if no one was physically hurt. I mean if dude beat me up I wouldn't want him to get anything like that. I understand something needs to be done to prevent stuff like this but come on that kind of time in the type of yard he's gonna be on is only going to make a scary convict out of him. He'll have to, to survive. Prison should be there to reform a person not make them worse. We're humans if you put us in such an environment you're only creating an antisocial pissed off instatutionalized human with a bunch of survival skills taught by convicts. That shouldn't be the goal or the out come, and don't say it's their choice on what they learn in prison because you see it everyday. How many 1 time losers have you heard of?

[Oram52]

Hate crime?
I am completely against homophobia and harassment but laws already exist for that. What precise law did the judge apply anyway.

Its freedom of speech I do not agree with but he is still free to burn any flag without repercussions. I do not agree with concept of hate crime, but hate crime would only come into play if violence is instigated against someone based on their religion, race, sexuality etc. No violent act was committed. And also laws already exist for that and should exist without anything called hate crime.

I am completely against bigotry and racism in any form. But in a free country its still free speech. How much I may despise it others are still free to express their views freely even if hateful.

Burning any flag is not a crime, its still freedom of expression.

[Wemix]

16 years is a joke people took less for rape what the hell

[ZeussLightningBolt]

LGBT people are a protected species

[Kaneki05]

Burning a flag is one thing but reason why he got arrest cause he did it somewhere in public.

pro tip wanna burn something don't do it outside of a strip club and don't steal the thing you burnt.

if he just burned something in his back garden that was his who cares and that would be wrong to arrest him for. But this nah hahahaa

[Astarlessnightsky]

I can't express how over the top this is, even the 1 year sentence was way too harsh.

A fitting punishment would have been 10 Bucks to buy a new flag and couple of hours community service.

It's just a flag no one got hurt even a little. Thats so messed up.

PS.
I was smiling when i thought about this could never happen in the EU due to fire hazard regulations. Flags just don't burn in the EU

[BeMuse]

Sounds like petty theft or vandalism... It should have been something along the lines of a fine of maybe several hundred dollars and some community service. Max jail time should have been something like 60 days in city jail if he was a repeat offender. The judge should be impeached.

[Dog20]

oh my god, no. they can't do this. Rapists and pedos get less time than that

[ZeussLightningBolt]

Because normal people no longer have rights in this country

[adidas0169]

No bc people can burn the American FLAG which is our national flag and they get no time but any other flag you get jail time serious how fucked up are you to feel that? back in the day if you burn a American flag it was jail time now you liberal twits complained so much all bc people kissing your asses. just like if you killed cop or police dog it was a death sentence now its just prison time. there's no sense of national pride anymore. if you dont like this country then move the fuck away then await you won't bc no other country will give you free hand outs like we do.

[menina]

He committed a crime yes, but 16 years is too much. I don't agree with what he did but there are criminals who are much worse than him.
If it was up to me, he would be sentenced to 3 years.

[ZeussLightningBolt]

I think a year would be enough

[menina]

I see.

[ZeussLightningBolt]

I haven't seen you in weeks.
How've you been?

[menina]

I know. I was busy with college and I also had a problem...

I''m sad, but I'm trying to move on. How are you doing?

[ZeussLightningBolt]

I'm good, thanks
When are you graduating?

[menina]

Nice!

Hopefully in May 2020.

[ZeussLightningBolt]

Nice

[menina]

Yeah, but at the same time it's a bittersweet feeling...

[ZeussLightningBolt]

Why?

[menina]

Because I'm going to miss my student life and my friends. Also, I still don't know where am I going to live and how to get there.

[ZeussLightningBolt]

I had the same feeling
But I stopped missing my classmates and professors after I realized what assholes they are.

Just stay with your parents for now

[ZeussLightningBolt]

Or get an appartment with Claudia

[menina]

Well, yeah some of my professors are assholes but there are also some that I'll miss. And I'll also miss some of my classmates, those who I'm friends with.

I want to leave my mom. I can't stand her and I'm too old to live with her.

[menina]

Well Claudia is going to stay in Portugal since she's Portuguese. You know I can't stay.
Plus, her mother controls her and she's only 20. Her mother would never let her live with me.

[ZeussLightningBolt]

Oh, you're planning to get the hell out of Portugal

[menina]

I do. It's a matter of life or death.

[ZeussLightningBolt]

OMG
No one's gonna kill you there

[menina]

Someone might kill me

[ZeussLightningBolt]

What?
Has to be a very specific individual who knows you then

[fuchit]

Basically he destroyed property. Whose it was and what it represents is irrelevant. I guess in the fucked up country we can know be punished for hurting someone's feelings. These ridiculous laws will do nothing more than cause further division in our society. Same with #metoo. You morons who support this shit need to take a step back and look at the bigger picture. Keep giving more and more power and control to the government and a dystopian society you will make.

[ZeussLightningBolt]

They should be grateful to be living in a country where they aren't being killed or imprisoned.

[fuchit]

No doubt

[wynn-ing]

I'm LGBT+ and the burning if the flag was extremely disrespectful but 16 years for that alone? That's FAR too much, especially in context of burning other flags like national ones.

Honestly, I'd rather him burning a flag than burn a person/people associated with that flag. It is disgusting hate, but is it prison-worthy crime?

[ZeussLightningBolt]

EXACTLY. It's not like he burned people

[DiscomfortZone]

I hate anti-lgbtq scum, especially the religion freaks bastards. But come the fuck on. An extra 15 years for little more than vandalism? Just like you said, how is this so much worse than burning a national flag? This judge was obviously biased, which is just wrong.

[weasley8]

I agree that what he did was a hate crime, so he should serve more than the one year. I do think that sixteen is a bit much though. I suppose that’s what happens when we make prisons their own industry. If he got that big of a sentence, he probably wasn’t a first time offender.

[ZeussLightningBolt]

I don't think it was a hate crime

[weasley8]

How do you define hate crime then?

[JohnnySigma85]

Burning the American Flag on American soil because people hate America yet no one gets any jail time for that but yet burning that flag is worse than that? Give me a fucking break.

[ZeussLightningBolt]

Committing a violent act against an INDIVIDUAL because of their race, beliefs or sexual orientation.

[BlueDream]

Wait, wtf... an LGBT flag from a church? I thought churchy people were against same sex marriage.

[ZeussLightningBolt]

That's the part that confused me as well
Maybe it was the Inca flag

But i know there ARE gay churches

[bamesjond0069]

There are churches which follow satan. It clearly states in the bible it is not ok. It also says pride is sinful and so obviously gay pride is very excessive. All around its clearly and straightforwardly condemned many times in old and new testament. These churches lie and mislead and are purposely going against God. This is why the guy was so upset. The bible also says those that blaspheme Gods teachings have committed an unforgivable sin. I mean this is really upsetting to me too.

[ZeussLightningBolt]

@bamesjond0069 I agree. It pisses me off when LGBT Christians say, "God made us." No he didn't. Sure, maybe they won't directly go to hell for it, but I'm sick and tired of hearing that Christianity approves of it. It does NOT! I think I know my own religion.

One trans girl on here actually told me, "God made me this way."
I replied, "God didn't make you a tranny, your doctor did."

Some people are just stupid.

[Lliam]

My Unitarian Universalist welcomes people of all races, ethnicities, spiritual beliefs, and gender orientations. It flies an LGBT flag along with an Earth flag.

[bamesjond0069]

@Lliam So you are anti God and completely do the opposite of what it says in the Bible?

[Lliam]

@bamesjond0069, I don't believe in gods and the Bible is mythology created by one, tiny group of ancient, desert-dwelling goat herders.

[bamesjond0069]

@Lliam so why do you go to church?

[Lliam]

@bamesjond0069. It's a nondenominational fellowship. People with all kinds of believes attend. My wife and I first agreed to try it out 17 years ago when we moved to this area because I was told there were not only Christians and Jews, etc. but also atheists and pagans and whatever. I met some really good friends and mainly go to connect with people.
The sermons are usually interesting and the topics, of course, have some connection to the topic of spirituality. There may be occasional references to the Bible and particularly Jesus' example, but nobody takes the Bible literally.

[bamesjond0069]

@Lliam how can you believe in the bible when you do the exact opposite of what it says? I can assure you there are certainly no Christians there.

[Lliam]

@bamesjond0069, there are some Christians there who believe in Jesus. But they don't believe in the Old Testament (Torah) and many understand that the New Testament is more like a novel than a work of journalism.
You might want to google Unitarianism and Universalism. One thing they both share is a rejection of a god who would send his children to eternal torture. In other words, some of them might believe in an afterlife, but the don't believe in Hell.

[bamesjond0069]

@Lliam so they dont believe in the bible. How could they know anything about Jesus as thats essentially the only source of info about the specifics of Jesus. This makes no sense.

[Lliam]

@bamesjond0069. I suspect that the "Christians" you speak of are of the judgmental, Bible thumping, fire and brimstone believing variety. They pick and choose what parts of the Torah to take literally?

It's pretty easy to have knowledge about Jesus without being gullible about the origins of the Bible.

[bamesjond0069]

@Lliam so without the bible how do you know about Jesus? By asking people who have read the bible? Lmao. And it sounds like you found some Christians who aren't the best or you dont really understand Christianity much. If you read the whole bible it tells you what can be disregarded in the torah and what should not. But if you haven't read the whole thing then obviously it doesn't surprise me why you are confused.

[Lliam]

@bamesjond0069, the Old Testament IS the Torah. Why do you disregard parts of it.

I am not speaking for those people I mentioned. Speaking only for myself, I'm not a Christian or any other religion. I was raised Catholic and have studied the Bible. I used to take that stuff seriously but then I grew up. Since then, I've studied all about the Bible, Biblical history, Jewish history, ancient history, world religions and mythologies, anthropology, and archaeology. I think the Bible is no more the word of God than is any other work of literature. You're entitled to your beliefs.

[Lliam]

The Old Testament is the word of God, right?

[bamesjond0069]

@Lliam yes. But if you read the new testament it has places which tell you not to follow specifically all that. Such as in Paul where Jesus tells him that the food requirements are no longer necessary and all animals are considered clean. So now bacon and shrimp are back on the table. Yum. But if you didn't read that you wouldn't know it. And many non believers use this exact example of dietary requirements to say christians pick and choose. Smh. You need to read to know it.

[bamesjond0069]

Honestly its good some of it takes a little work to figure out. I can instantly know if someone has read the bible or not based on their arguments.

[Lliam]

@bamesjond0069, Jesus didn't tell Paul anything. The two never met.

[bamesjond0069]

@Lliam have you read the bible? I'd start with that.

[Lliam]

@bamesjond0069, Yes. Are you aware that Paul never met Jesus? Neither did the authors who called themselves Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. That's fact.

[bamesjond0069]

@Lliam so then you dont have any reason to believe in Jesus why are you a Christian?

[Lliam]

@bamesjond0069, I already said that I'm not.

[bamesjond0069]

@Lliam so then why do you believe in Jesus? 🤔

[Lliam]

@bamesjond0069, I think there was probably a historical figure named Yeshua. I don't believe the fantastical accounts about him in the Gospels. I don't believe that he was the "son of God". I don't believe in the existence of God or gods.

[bamesjond0069]

@Lliam so then why do you go somewhere that discusses him? Seems strange.

[Lliam]

@bamesjond0069. I already explained that, dude. They don't talk about him, especially in the sense of being a god. As I said, Christians, Jews, atheists, pagans and other types of people attend our church. If Jesus is mentioned at all, it's to point out his example on how to treat others.

[bamesjond0069]

@Lliam but how can he be an example of how to treat people if the bible is fake? Why not just use like the lion king or star wars for examples of human behavior?

[Lliam]

@bamesjond0069, all of the things you mentioned CAN give examples on how to treat people. You don't have to be a god to do that. The Buddha is another religious figure who is often used to exemplify good attitude and behavior. The Bible is just one out of countless pieces of literature.

[bamesjond0069]

@Lliam ok so if you dont believe in God or Jesus how can you be a Christian?

[Lliam]

@bamesjond0069, How many times do I have to say that I'm not a fucking Christian?

[bamesjond0069]

@Lliam well nobody who is a Christian would go to a church that says Jesus isn't real.

[Lliam]

@bamesjond0069, I don't go there to worship Jesus. I wouldn't go there if they preached the Bible or "worshiped" Jesus. I grew out of believing in mythology long ago. You can if you want to. I don't care.

[bamesjond0069]

@Lliam you said Christian's go there. Im telling you none go there.

[Lliam]

@bamesjond0069,. Dude. I don't care about your judgmental, Bible-thumping opinions of others.

[bamesjond0069]

@Lliam its not possible to be a Christian and not believe in the Bible and Jesus.

[normalice]

seems excessive, but as I know how conservative the judges are in Iowa, I'm absolutely certain that there is more to the story than your summary..

[ZeussLightningBolt]

Apparently he had prior felonies
I only posted what i read in the article
Apparently the writers omited certain details

[normalice]

Ah. That would make sense. My guess was the author was a conservative author who wanted to incite conservative readers and saw an opportunity to leave out significant detail, though I wasn't really imagining what those details might be... I guess I wasn't too far off..

[ZeussLightningBolt]

I think so too
Yahoo is usually Liberal, but occasionally a Conservative will sneak in there

[normalice]

Well, it could also be the opposite. Maybe they wanted to gloat about someone getting severely punished for being mean to gay people. I have no idea..

[ZeussLightningBolt]

Could be that too. Yes

[NikolasGLT]

If the LGBTQ community supports this kind of judgement, then no wonder why people hate them. It is an extreme way to use the freedom of speech, but burning fabric and getting sentenced over it for 18 years in prison is absolutely ridiculous and stupid. Giving him a big fine or public service would be good enough. I do not support the way he showed his hate nor his hate. But I definitely think his punishment was way over what he was supposed to get.

[something_memorable]

So theft, arson, and hate crimes. Id say it adds up. Say you had a flag that covered your brothers coffin or something and it really means a lot to you. If i broke into your house, burned that flag, just because i hated your race or religion, how much time would you want me to do? Does that sound like the behavior of someone who's safe to be in society?

I know you dont care about being honest or reasonable, you're probably just a bot anyway, but in case you aren't just put yourself in our shoes. If you were gay you'd want this kind of hateful shit to stop. You'd be crying crocodile tears if YOU were the one being threatened so dont be so dismissive.

[ZeussLightningBolt]

I wouldn't want him to do more than a year
I don't understand how it's a hate crime if he didn't physically harm anyone
There's no law that you have to like LGBT people.
I'd gladly burn an LGBT flag myself if I had one to burn.
I'm not a bot. The punishment doesn't fit the crime. He should do no more than a year. His only crime here was theft.

When I was in Chile, a bunch of Venezuelans were burning American flags. What? Am I supposed to cry because they hate my country? I just avoid them and don't let them know I'm American.
I've been to countries where i was openly treated like shit, because of my race/nationality. I can't force them to like me. I know not everyone will like my race/nationality/sexual orientation. Welcome to the real world.

At least LGBT people aren't being killed here like they are in Muslim countries.
"Oh mah gosh, he burned our flag!"
So, buy a new one!

Everyone hates someone. There isn't a single group that's liked by 100% of the population. That's life, get used to it

[something_memorable]

Go buy one and burn it then. Safely, and notify the local fire department first if you're in a residential area. there's no law against you being a stupid piece of shit and wasting your own money just to spread hate. But someone who would go TO A CHURCH of all places, steal and burn THEIR stuff, that level of brazen hatred doesn't come from normal fear and ignorance, thats psychotic behavior.

Im glad he's serving 15 years, and im glad that the case sets precedent for the future so dicks like you feel less inclined to take out your bigoted rage on other people and their property. You wanna hate my sexuality and burn your own shit? Like i said, have at it. Leave everyone else alone though or pay the fucking price😠

[something_memorable]

"At least you're not being killed"

Gee thanks😒 what lovely compensation. Try that on yourself and see how you like it.

I just stole your shit, burned it, terrorized you and made you and all your friends and family fear for their safety, but chill tf out its not like i gutted you with a chainsaw or anything. Why so triggered snowflake?

I do feel sorry for you though. I know you dont believe me after cussing you out, which you deserved by the way, but its probably not even your fault that you hate gay people. You've probably been told lies all your life how we're such bad and depraved people, or maybe you outwardly hate us to mask your own sexual insecurities. Neither are excuses, and if you ever give in to reason you'll have some demons to confront, but it at least explains it.

[ZeussLightningBolt]

I didn't have a problem when you guys stayed in the closet and kept your homosexuality in the privacy of your own homes
Now you're shoving it down everyone's throats and are demanding special treatment.
Everyone who gets grossed out by the sight of two guys making out or having butt sex on top of their gay pride float, is automatically labeled a bigot.
I shouldn't be forced to see that shit if i don't want to
And stop brainwashing our children with this shit

[Tamera952]

Big whoop. I read the story, sounds like this guy deserved it as there were non-extenuating circumstances in his case, combined with some generally dangerous behavior. So I don’t think it’s as superficial as ‘just burning a flag’ — it seems like he consciously chose to make a hateful example, so they made an example of him.

[Definitely]

My questions are... Where are the terrorist and murderers now? How long are they kept in prison? And why are the tax money used for keeping people that don't really harm anyone in prison? Not my country, but I feel like that's more bullshit than I've seen lately around the world for such a small event

[Kaazsz]

They should first consult the hive mind of the lgbt community to find out how bad the flag burning hurt their feelings and sentence based on that. All you have to do is use a crystal ball to access the universal hive mind magic matrix which exists beyond time and space. Then once you access the hive mind you feel the pain and can make a proper sentencing.

[R_ūshī]

I6 years is waaaay too long a sentence for that offence😵

[Izumiblu]

He should be charged trespassing and some form of property damage/theft for the cost of the flag. When burning an American flag becomes terrorism then I’ll agree that this sentence is in line with standards for similar crimes. Otherwise no.

[cheapshotbob]

i might go to Iowa just because i want to go there and go to prison for burning one too!

[ZeussLightningBolt]

LOL. Have fun

[cheapshotbob]

thanks lol my state does not recognize those people i could burn 10 of those flags and i would just get a citation for burning garbage inside city limits lol. no one would believe me unless i had an actual prison record saying its because i burned a irrelevant flag lol thats how my state see's it anyway

[ZeussLightningBolt]

LOL. Is your state Texas?
And that garbage comment was great. LOL

[cheapshotbob]

no north carolina i live int eh bible belt that junk dont fly you got one small city with a bunch of
progressives but nothing major

[Lliam]

Apparently, exercising free speech can now get you 15 years in prison. That's what they want to do to those who criticize Israel, too.
The guy should have been charged with theft of the flag. Period.

[mistixs]

What he did was wrong and unjustifiable, but I don't think it warrants 16 years in prison. Perhaps a more suitable punishment would be to fine him, and give the money to a charity for LGBT people in need.

[ZeussLightningBolt]

The only thing i found wrong was the theft

[mistixs]

You don't think arson is a crime?

[ZeussLightningBolt]

He didn't burn down a building

[mistixs]

ar·son
/ˈärs (ə) n/
Learn to pronounce
noun
the criminal act of deliberately setting fire to property

[ZeussLightningBolt]

You know damn well arson laws specifically refer to structures and wilderness
Flag burning is protected by the first amendment.
Is it arson to burn my own books?

[codycccccccccc]

That is stupid it theift under $5000 not manslaughter

[ZeussLightningBolt]

EXACTLY
Petty theft and destruction of property and perhaps creating a public hazard, AT MOST

[sweetcocoa_]

I would say at max he should do 3-4 months in jail and have to pay a fine. That's a bit ridiculous.

[Djaay]

Guess who's going to burn like that flag for eternity? Dont worry about homosexuals , its they're time to express themselves. Soon it will be GODS turn to express his wrath.

[ZeussLightningBolt]

LOL.

[Exotica08]

I heard of child predators who get less time than that. 16 years is very excessive.

[SportsNerd]

He has done other crimes

[douride2]

Damn murders & rapists get less time. Just goes to show how fucked up the justice system really is.

[Nik1hil]

Too harsh!
I would have sentenced him to attend 16 LGBT community gathering nicely

[ZeussLightningBolt]

LOL.

[Rangers]

He should be REWARDED for burning the flag, not punished, wtf!!!

[ZeussLightningBolt]

Especially since Iowa is a Red state

[SwordShield]

Uhh… Dude... Why?

[Rangers]

@SwordShield It's a community that celebrates mental illness and leaves it untreated, staying on the path to suicide. It's awful and self destructive and as such shouldn't be encouraged.

[SwordShield]

Being gay is a mental illness? Bruh, they would kill themselves even if they were "normalized". You know nothing. Gtfo.

[Rangers]

@SwordShield They have untreated mental illnesses that they ignore and try to "embrace" instead of seeking treatment, which leads to massive suicide rates that are found exclusively in that community. Even American slaves and Jews in the holocaust didn't commit suicide at the same rate as them, which proves definitively that it's not solely through bad treatment of them that causes this.

[Texaskid1]

I am not one much for the gay flag but...

He did not get 15 years for burning a flag. He already had several previous felonies and had made death threats ( another crime).
This is why I get pissed at the media ( be it liberal or even conservatives)- they know that many people read only the headliners and jump to conclusions based on that.

[PrettyRegular]

Wtf. He should've maybe paid for new flag at most. I hope Trump will pardon that innocent guy.

[ZeussLightningBolt]

He's Hispanic, so probably not

[PrettyRegular]

I don't think he dislikes hispanics.

[Daniela1982]

I guess the American flag is not important anymore and a lame LGBT flag takes top billing. I have a feeling the judge was gay.

[Unit1]

The judge must have been a LGBT member himself/herself

[ZeussLightningBolt]

That's what I'm thinking

[Soteris]

Seams reasonable. He burned someone elses property, he committed a hate crime and third-degree harassment afterwards and he got a harsher punishment because he was an "Habitual offender" with multiple previous felonies.

[ZeussLightningBolt]

I don't think he commited a hate crime, and I didn't see how he was harassing people, nor did I see the part that he had multiple felonies, but that would explain it

[Soteris]

Well they dont make good headlines.

[ZeussLightningBolt]

Did you find another article?

[Soteris]

For what its worth I think this one broke the news in the first place:
www.desmoinesregister.com/.../

[Ice_knight]

Ok, op isn't exactly correct about the terms of arson. However, this man threatened to kill people via fire and came back to light fire to an object, to which then could have been used to start a fire. The fact he has prior felony convictions and then this threat is what got him his fifteen years.

[bamesjond0069]

I believe he will appeal and it will be turned over. It isn't even a misdemeanor to destroy property of that low a value in most places. Nor would it be trespassing to go to a public building, nor is it arson to burn a flag. And as far as i know, hate crimes can only be tacked on to violent crimes. So if he's not charged with a violent crime that sticks on appeal it will be thrown out too. Ie because its completely legal to say "i hate gays"

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

It isn't legal to steal an American flag, burn it where there is a high risk of lighting a nearby building (and the people in it) on fire and threaten to cause harm to U. S. citizens when you already have a criminal record.

This question is a load of fear mongering BS.