Would you support "second chance" law in your country?

[lightbulb27]

Some people go to jail because they made a bad decision, or things just went wrong for them. They had a bad emotional day. Criteria like this:

- They were generally responsible person

- Minimal negative impact to others except for this event.

- Confidently not dangerous to themselves or others

GOAL:

* reduce costs to prison system and free space

* Avoid overly punishing someone and punishing them more than we'd punish ourselves if we made the same mistake.

* Focus resources on those that have record of hazard to society and require reform rather than those that make mistakes.

Can you think of people in prison you'd free under such system? I can think of a few.

Yes

No. Do any crime, pay the time

Maybe

[Aerissa_Jade]

I've often said, if someone 'can' make restitution for the crime, they should be required to. A thief for example should be required to pay back the amount stolen, plus interest.

A first time thief that is... does no good to lock them up, where they can't work to pay any of it back.

The problem though comes from what it means for minimum impact to others?

Someone might think it is pretty minimal but the victim might think otherwise. The victim should have final say on this, if they say its not minimal then it is not treated as such.

I don't believe in rehabilitation at all, I believe in hard core punishment for criminals... the kind that cannot undo what they did, while those that can should be required to try to undo what they did.

Prison should not be to educate or make them better, it should be to make them suffer, at least as much pain as they caused someone or more. Victims often have a lifetime sentence for the crime, so should the offender... and they should suffer as much or as their victims are.

[lightbulb27]

Take an example of officer Kim Potter. In the minds of some, she made a mistake... which lead to killing a suspect that was resisting and fleeing officers lawful orders. People do make mistakes. Is that a suitable candidate? Or should she be punished for the mistake she made.

[Aerissa_Jade]

If she could undo what she did, she would be a perfect candidate. Can she bring him back to life? if the answer is yes then great candidate for a second chance.

She killed someone, and already did get a second chance with the shorter sentence for what she was convicted of.

The thing that should be considered is there is dozens of victims, not just the one she killed. She destroyed dozens of other lives. All his friends, family and others who knew him has their lives destroyed or damaged because of this.

His child will never know their father, and has a lifetime sentence from that.

Did they all get justice from her pathetic 16 month sentence? She should of been treated exactly like a non police officer who accidently made a mistake and killed someone which I believe is 7 years.

Now if Daunte Write did not die and was shot and suffer from lifetime injuries from it, then she would be a good candidate for a second chance and a lifetime of paying restitution to her victim.

You don't get to destroy dozens of lives and get to start over with a second chance, when none of the victims will get the same chance, especially the child, who will never have him in their life and will grow up without a father.

I do agree it was a mistake, but mistakes that destroys that many lives do need to be punished to get justice for all the victims.

There was no justice in this one.

[Aerissa_Jade]

FYI, I am 100% victim centered, and 0% perp centered, don't care about the perp at all or how it happened, only the end result.

That is when the victim is a person. If it is a entity like the government or big business, I'm not victim centered, because our laws punish people who make those entities victims extremely harsh already.

[lightbulb27]

Good discussion, I can see that. I'd argue the other way though.
e. g. if one of my relatives was violating the law and putting officers lives in danger, resisting arrest, had a "record", fleeing the scene (putting other lives at risk)... and officer legit killed them by accident... I'd forgive the officer and only require $ compensation and minimal sentence... maybe 6 months probation and more importantly evaluation of what happened and how to learn from and propagate learnings to other departments, required by court or else heafty fine. The "penalty" is in learning and improvement, not punishment. Also, to what extent were the families culpable in training the "brat" that was committing crimes, lacked emotional control to respect lawful orders? They aren't all "victims" in that viewpoint.

Why? Because we are losing our ability to enforce laws. As it is, officers are told not to pursue obvious and clear criminal behavior. The 100% victim view puts all responsibility on the officer and non on the offending party that initiated. This is a big part of the problem we now have in society... people don't respect the law or officers, so we have lawlessness. only gets worse til direction changes.
Example of lawlessness run amuck and ridiculous solutions devised to deal with it. only a matter of time until someone gets hurt/killed in accident. When that happens, who pays? Guarantee not the criminals.
www.nbcconnecticut.com/.../

This specifically is a good example where roots may help. Humans, being emotionally, hormonally unstable, can and do make mistakes. As it is... I'd never sign up to be police officer, and I wouldn't take risks.
Just a data case of 1... which is why changes to system are difficult.

[Aerissa_Jade]

I'm curious how they ban the sale to ATV riders with gas stations having self pay... make them hire a guard to stand out there and prevent it? Seems like they want higher gas prices to pay for that.

I focus on the child, the child that will grow up without a father had nothing to do with it, no say and too young. I have less concern for his parents.

The child should get millions, minimum a 150 million for the death and be untouchable by anyone until they turn 21, especially the grandparents, no touch. The amount should be extremely high and then I'd be more okay with a second chance for someone making a mistake. Let the city go after the officer to get the money back after they pay it out. Not some pathetic amount of only a few million or less.

Like I said though, if there is a direct human victim, shouldn't be any second chances... the real question is what it would apply to? No one will ever agree on the same things... some think you can beat the shit out of someone, 1st time offender and it was just a mistake because they let their temper get the best of them and it won't happen again... probation only. That already happens... then again I've seen guy here on GAG that admitted they made a mistake when they raped a girl. They regret it and consider it a mistake... right.

[lightbulb27]

Good thoughts, I think you are talking about how to "make right" and it's valid there's innocent people impacted, especially the child. This where the bible talks about paying 1/5th or something.
For once, that I've seen, we see things a little differently.
Why are you 100% victim oriented? Have you ever been put in a position of great responsibility.. and made a mistake?

ATV gas sales... yea, it means some gas station owners are going to get shot or windows broken. Try that in phili. The problem is some people don't follow the law, that's the problem. solution is always punish law abiding people/businesses rather than punish violators. can't make this stuff up... lol. They are avoiding dealing with them due to backlash. Guarantee if they took those ATV's down, they'rd be more "victims" and costs... not worth it to authority/police, so the problem continues until society's view changes... to hold people accountable to law for benefit of all.

[Aerissa_Jade]

I'm more harsh when someone dies, like that kid that punched the ref in the face, single punch for a call he didn't like and the ref died.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-23584113

Many say, it was a mistake and he should be given a second chance because of his age, despite the fact that the refs entire family has been destroyed. Should of got 7 to 10 in the adult system in my opinion but I think he only got 3 years in the juvenile system.

As for why I'm 100% victim based, the system does not do enough to help the victims. Victims are often left to fend for themselves. Read this I am NOT defined by my Scars "A Survivors Account" ↗

I was given state funded therapy that I had to miss school for, take half the day to get to and from, it was useless. I had to drop out of college because therapy was taking too much from school so I was failing. Never got to finish college because of it. My life has been forever destroyed/changed and I've done things I would not of done otherwise, and all he got was just under 5 years in the Juvenile system. He got a second chance at life, I did not. I wish he had killed me, ironically in the end, he will have... as he damaged my heart so bad, it is going to fail and he'll have killed me anyways, just years after the attack. Yet he gets a sealed juvenile record and gets to go live his life as if he did nothing. While I get a life sentence.

Sadly, someone can embezzle from the government or a business and get decades in prison, far more time than someone who killed someone or raped someone, yet those people should be forced to work to pay it back, instead they sit in prison not paying anything back.

[lightbulb27]

I understand those feelings, that's trauma. I pray you get your freedom back for there is great power in it when you rise above it, and you will, then you have more to give back than ever that will take you to new hights.
Your perspective makes sense. I agree, there isn't enough value for victims. This is same on small scale when someone hurt me... they are left good, and I was left wreck. It's standard human trauma. I pray you rise above it and find your calling. Watch the TED talk on "stress" as a motivator to move forward.
I'd prefer to see "kanban"... like Toyota does for cars... on these issues, we'd get better. Some people should be in jail until further notice or forever. Others need some work so they don't do that again and compensate the victims. What we aren't doing is addressing the trauma on either side, it's a shame... and it's not rocket science. As it is, you are right, the system is a waste too often. Life isn't fair was a hard lesson for me.

I don't know our scenario, but it's sad to hear.. and motivating. I don't like the stories how reservation, often girls, are taken advantage of. I studied this a while back. I was near reservations in Arizona few years back, but didn't know enough to go beyond jewlery places.

[lightbulb27]

I can relate to your point about therapy. Being frustrated just trying to get to therapy drove me to solve my problems on my own and seek spirtuality... which lead to Christ. That got me past one thing, other challenges (relationships) came along and challenged me more. I went to therapy and learned, but the real learning is in understanding yourself. The only way out of wounds I've found is... finding the value in what happened and healing deeply.. find the lies in them, releasing them, and finding the value in them... once you heal and gain value from it in growth, it's priceless knowledge... your weakness becomes your strength just as the Bible says and from that you have much more to give than before. Sort of like a compressed spring, deeper you go, stronger you'll get when "pop up". Hell is deep and wide, I know that. People have written books on these things, maybe you will as well.
It is hard to go to a big city due to cost differential. But I think there are pathways if it's what you want. I live in an area of a lot of immigrants... they did it, they made it. My wife's whole family is a success story.

[Anonymous]

This is a slippery slope. The bigger problem is when people have a criminal record after they serve their time and/or get off probation. Even if they get their record expunged it will still always show up on a database somewhere.

The criminal record will likely indefinitely damage their reputation and makes them far less employable. Especially if it was a sex crime (separate debate on that).

One thing I think that needs to change is how the media and sheriff’s offices publicize the accused identities in arrests. The persons name and mugshot get published for the whole world to see DESPITE them not being found guilty of crime yet. It’s supposed to be innocent until proven guilty but the media virtually makes all suspects guilty until proven innocent.

That I have a serious problem with. That REALLY needs to change. Big time. The perpetrator’s identity should never be released to the public until they are at least officially charged with a crime.

However on the flip side of all of this there are dangerous and violent criminals who get let back on the streets way too easily. Paul Pelosi’s attacker was an illegal alien with a criminal record. He should of been arrested a long time ago.

[D_Bone_Steak]

Sexual or violent crimes should be the only thing you actually see locked up in my opinion, to begin with. Some guy with an ounce of weed and who happened to have ziplock bags in the house getting hemmed up for intent to sell is honestly something I think is bullshit.

My Unkle for instance (he's out now) got locked up... what did he do? California was trying to legalize medical marijuana at the time... The government hired him to grow for them. Then busted him for it. Anyone with any logical sense will see that as entrapment, but it's what you get when dealing with the government. My uncle called the news and did a final interview and turned himself in. That's the kind of stuff you'll find us taxpayers paying for... paying to pay some guy to grow pot plants and then paying to put and keep him in prison. For what? What was the point of all of that?

[LaBokaChula]

Yes because some people are in jail over false accusations.. It doesn't matter in some situations if they have proof that they're being falsely accused because some judges won't accept the evidence that's been presented.

There have been so many people who have felony charges and they've been lied on, I just feel like they should be given the opportunity to speak on the situation and tell their sides.. Maybe even a lie detector test to show they're not being deceptive.

[genericname85]

i don't think everyone should be granted a second chance by default.

i agree that everyone makes mistakes an i think there should be continuous psychological assessments of each individual. we have to establish objective, science based standards a person has to fullfill in order to be fit to live in society without being a danger for the people around them.

so i think upon fullfilling such scientific assessment standards, i think a person should be granted a chance to get an early probation with the chance to significantly reduce their sentence through positive personal development, given their probation goes well.

[genericname85]

but such a system can't work in countries like the USA, where the prison system is private businesses and not governmentally controlled institutions. so these private businesses have no interest in reducing peoples sentence. they are concerned with profit and nothing else.

[lightbulb27]

great point!

[genericname85]

thanks :)

[lightbulb27]

good thoughts!
Continous assessments would likely show many not fit for duty, at various times. I'll pick on females for a second... their hormones vary enough to change their mood and perceptions, which means their judgement does as well. Guys maybe do as well at times, not sure. Sometimes people don't get enough sleep, or maybe too much stress... or watched a scary video... and the next day goes bad. Periodic checks might help avoid some police bad judgement calls. But I doubt we'd have enough police coverage either. No wonder we need to deploy robots to replace us:)

[genericname85]

i didn't mean continuously assess "everyone" in general xD just incarcerated individuals.

[KostasKouvalis]

I would, but to be completely truthful, I don't think this would work in the U. S. because of our culture. I see this from myself and from my dad. Letting them off easy will only make them do it more, because they think they can keep getting away with it. But it's not just MY family, I think the majority of people in America are like this.

I could see such a system working in Europe or Asian countries, France and Nordic countries already do something similar, but this would never work in the U. S. because of the way our culture is.

[Strangerdanger2120]

Yes and no.

Drug addicts should be sent to mandatory rehabs. Prostitutes and johns should get lenient sentences. Thieves should get mental health.

Offending pedophiles and murderers should be hung. Along with treasonous politicians.

Monopolies like Amazon, Walmart, etc should pay billions and be shut down. Not go to prison necessarily but be put on a watch list.

Defend jails, fund prisons and hangings.

[Kiran_Yagami]

That depends. "reduce costs to prison system and free space" But does it reduce the cost and burden on the state? Proving someone was generally responsible before, doesn't negatively impact others, and not a danger to themselves and others is not an effortless task. That takes man hours and money to make that determination. Who is going to foot that bill, because you have to do it for every person that gets arrested and convicted. That's a lot of time and money spent.

[lightbulb27]

have a panel review the cases and advise the judge. it's tough because it gets emotional.

[Kiran_Yagami]

That doesn't answer the question.

[qwert1234]

Yes, as long as we have a proper way to rehabilitate them. Jailing them for X amount of time without doing anything to at least give them a fighting chance on society, I guarantee you that more than 50% will be repeat offenders.

Minor offenders - like small time theft (ie: stole an apple from store), small time drug users and so on.

Murderers, drug lords, rapists and so on - nah. Perma jail for you.

[John_Doesnt]

We all know how much America loves Russia now and Russia loves long ass prison sentences.

So Comrade: shall we reduce labor costs by "imprisoning" our citizens and forcing them to work without pay? Even better, while in prison we could "re-educate" these people.

[Jamie05rhs]

Nope. Do I get to commit a crime just because I'm having a bad day?
Think about the precedent that would set.

Do we want a society of responsible law abiding citizens, or do we want a bunch of grown adult babies acting out and then making excuses for what they did?

[exitseven]

No, letting criminals roam free and not prosecuting crimes because there is not enough jail cells in counter productive. We need to build more jails and they need to be not of the luxury type.

[jshm2]

You mean "corrective justice". Instead of just making a jail owner richer at the taxpayers expense, you instead push the onus on the criminal.

[GreatVallue]

Prison is dirt cheap compared to the catch and release program.

[MCheetah]

Isn't that what judges are supposed to do, to begin with? I'm confused. Guess I have to go "maybe" on this one.

[joeldalton]

Nope. What I would support is a reduction in things that are considered crimes.

[Kiran_Yagami]

Such as?

[lightbulb27]

wow, really? surprised.

[joeldalton]

@Kiran_Yagami All of these bullshit car registration and minor infractions should not be crimes. Drugs should be decriminalized, same with prostitution.

This site estimates the average adult commits three felonies a day

https://ips-dc.org/three-felonies-day/

[joeldalton]

@lightbulb27 - you shouldn't be. I'm very consistent in that I'm a right-leaning libertarian.

[inhua]

for some small crimes yes. for bigger crimes no.

[AngryCarl]

UK here. That's pretty much what the law is here. You never go to jail for a first offence unless it's something really egregious like murder.

[lightbulb27]

is that working ok?

[AngryCarl]

The justice system doesn't work at all. It takes years for a crime to get to trial.

[Anonymous]

Yes, but Id base that on what the crime was.

[lightbulb27]

Lets say someone was killed but they weren't the killer but were involved. I had an aquaintance that went to jail for something like that.

[msc545]

Yes except corruption would wreck it.

[WhitneySnow]

Sure

[Agape93]

Depends on the crime