Are trans women real women and are trans men real men?🌈?

[Anonymous]

Yes🏳️‍🌈

No🤢

[Dinosaursandanime65]

If you put makeup on a pig, they’re still a pig

[Asker]

Love this😭

[Dinosaursandanime65]

Credit for this quote goes to Orlin (Nikocado Avocado YT)

[Dinosaursandanime65]

@DevikaButts95 MICHIGAN, AAAAHHH

[Dinosaursandanime65]

https://youtu.be/EP9NqfjUXmk

[Dinosaursandanime65]

The right side of my face is drenched in tears. If I were at school, I’d get in trouble

[DevikaButts95]

My comment wasn't directed towards you. I mean you're just an ass, ain't any other way to put it and you're not really worth any sort of discussion, but I can see it really got to you.

[Asker]

Ok…?

[Dinosaursandanime65]

What is happening

[Asker]

That lady is forgetting her age

[Dinosaursandanime65]

At least she isn’t forgetting her gender

[Asker]

L😲L frrrrr

[In_Trance]

Nope

[OlderAndWiser]

Woke culture changes the definition of words so that they can try to make statistically abnormal things sound normal. It would be ludicrous to say that a guy who has had surgery and hormone treatment but still has XY xhromosomes in every cell of his body is identical in all respects to a person who was born female and has XX chromosomes in every cell of her body.

[Price511]

I didn’t realize that GAG was this transphobic, but I might as well try to make a difference.


So, are trans women real women, and are trans men real men? It really depends on what your definition of a “real” man or woman is.


Is it based on chromosomes? Perhaps, maybe it is. But there are women who have XY chromosomes (Swyer syndrome), and men who have XX chromosomes (de la Chapelle syndrome). They may also have XXY chromosomes, XYX, etc. There are documented cases of this phenomenon in medical studies. If this isn’t the decider, what is?


Is it the genitalia? If so, then what about ovotesticulars or ovotestes? What about men who get born with uteruses? Women born without uteruses? What really defines it as such, what draws the line?



Is it based on looks? What about effeminate men? Masculine women? Is what your definition of what looks like a man or woman based in a social construct, like a slim waist and boobs, or muscles and body hair? Or is it something else?


All of these things have been used individually to define a woman or a man, yet it only ever really works when in a vacuum. It is not all black and white, for there are shades in-between. What defines a man or woman isn’t really defined at all. There’s a lot in between that bridges the gap and challenges what you may believe makes someone any gender.



Let’s say, hypothetically, you’re a man. One day, something happens, and your brain must be transplanted into a woman’s body. Do you think it’ll feel wrong? Like your body doesn’t match what your brain tells you? Wouldn’t you want to try and fix it, and have your body match what your brain says? What if you are born like that, with a body that says one thing yet a mind that says otherwise all the time?


I do not expect to make you change your opinions. I know better than to expect that. What I do seek, however, is tolerance from you.

These are living, breathing people like you or me. Liking the same things that we do, whether it’s cars, guns, trucks, and swords, or pretty dresses and flowers, or something entirely different, they are still just like you and me, with only just one simple thing changed; their gender. This doesn’t even have to alter their appearance either, or “cut off or glue on” private parts. I actually know plenty of them personally who don’t undergo bottom surgery or top surgery of any kind.

If you can know and understand that they are just like you and me,
hopefully you can tolerate that they exist, even if it may not be in your own ideologies.

All I ask of you is to at least show them the baseline respect you would give any other being.

Thank you for your time for reading this.
(Seriously, this took me an hour to draft up since my app kept on messing it up and resetting everything too. I really appreciate it.)
I hope you have a day you deserve :)

[Pohjolan]

Humans have only two types of gametes. Egg cells and sperm.
If it produces egg cells, it's a female, if sperm it's a male.

Besides if they real men/women then we would just call them man/woman without the trans- prefix.

[JamesDiaz11]

Let's step away from mutations, and the answer is clear. You trying to muddy the waters with miniscule outliers is disingenuous.

[Lori11]

"It really depends on what your definition of a “real” man or woman is." you said, if you can't accept a physical reality, then you're just delusional. You're young tho, you need more time to think by yourself instead of being around so many rainbow people and media. I was brainwashed too when I was a teen, I hope you learn to think by yourself.

[Price511]

@Pohjolan The gametes idea, as previously stated, can very well become have supposed “exceptions” as per my ovotestes or ovotesticulars section. We do also just refer to them as men or women, without the trans prefix. But if that’s what you want to define them by, then by all means go ahead. I’m here to try and be objective and factual, not to change opinions here.

[Lori11]

You're so brainwashed...

[Price511]

@JamesDiaz11 I do want to mention these “miniscule outliers” are a larger majority than what you think, as per the UCLA Williams Institute’s study via advanced statistical modeling and various other methods, 1.3 million adults in the United States identify as transgender, with 300,000 youths as well. While you can still hold the idea that these are miniscule outliers (as it depends on what you view as outliers in statistics), I do want to make it a little clearer as to what these outliers are statistically. Do with that info what you will. Also, please feel free to clarify what the clear answer is in your perspective. I’m wanting to possibly understand your viewpoints, as well as how you may view my efforts as “disingenuous.”

[Price511]

@Pterodon Feel free to mention how I’m full of shit. I want to see if there is any logical fallacies that may be there.
As for looking between my legs, that can easily be changed by bottom surgery, although I don’t want that personally.
To have them institutionalized is quite a strong feeling though, why do you think that should be the case? I’m wanting to work on constructive criticisms here by crafting my thoughts and opinions based on reviewing topics and seeing what holes can be poked, or to throw my opinions out entirely if I believe they are wrong.

[Price511]

@Lori11 I do spend a lot more time thinking for myself, and I’ve actually spent a majority of my life in the church or other such places where you may view my opinions as “unfavored.” Do not take me to be a contrarian simply to be one, though.
This physical reality you mentioned; feel free to define it in no uncertain terms so I can see what you mean. If you believe I am brainwashed, feel free to let me know how so too. I do however tend to not really take my own opinions from mainstream media, though I do know that they are often peer reviewed with citations and also codes of ethics; the “rainbow people” are hard to keep this kind of opinion divorced from them, as they are literally the subject.
If there is some sort of logical or religious reasoning behind your answer, feel free to explain it to me. I’d be more than willing to read and reply.

[Pterodon]

Fuck your woke ideas. You can cut your cock off and sew tits on but that doesn’t make you a real woman. Real women are born with a pussy, grow tits, menstruate, can bear offspring and lactate.

[Price511]

@Pterodon So I see that you’re holding a belief that what makes a woman is genitalia, milk ducts, menstruation, and birth. Shall we analyze it?
So real women can grow tits and lactate by your definition, but what of those with small chests and being unable to produce milk? There are countless mothers who have had this issue and sometimes had to turn to formula instead in order to feed their kids, or simply do not have big breasts due to genetics.
Are menopausal women no longer women if they can’t bear children? What of those with birth conditions who cannot carry a baby to term?
These are genuine questions that I feel should be addressed if you want to utilize that definition. Maybe you can refine it and send a reply back, if you can come up with a more concise answer. :)
Or don’t, it’s a free country after all.

[Red-Blaze]

Not going to give an option to here or there
But dam, chill! replys here completely emotion with no mind stering behind them
People should at the very least reply respectfully regardless of if you agree or not

@Price511 Must say, really fantastic keeping your calm in such reaction from pepole

[Lori11]

You're literally trying to use WOMEN HEALTH ISSUES to affirm the identity of transgenders.
If a woman cannot breastfeed, that's a FEMALE HEALTH PROBLEM, something's up with the breast's development and function.
If a woman is menopausal, that's a NATURAL FEMALE AGING CHARACTERISTIC, ovaries getting old.
If a woman cannot get pregnant, that's a FEMALE FERTILITY ISSUE, maybe something going on with her ovaries.
Men who say they feel like women cannot use women issues and experiences to "affirm" their delusion, it just makes no sense. If a woman isn't pregnant and doesn't menstruate is simply because something happened to her reproductive system, she's ill, she has hormonal problems, or she's menopausal. A trans woman doesn't menstruate simply because they're not a woman, they have no ovaries, if they achieve to physically look similar to a woman is just because they're supressing the healthy natural levels of testosterone their bodies produce, using a bunch of hormones and getting body modifications done, women don't do that, periodddd.

[JamesDiaz11]

No, I'm talking about the mutations- I'm not talking about the delusional people who think they're the opposite sex. The syndromes you mentioned, including Klinefelter's (which was the most common one at 1:650- NHS) are not synonymous with Transgenderism.
The reason I'm saying you're being disingenuous is that you'll point to miniscule outliers as proof that 'no neat boundary exists between the genders/ sexes, so people can freely navigate through this, as the boundary is arbitrary- as per these outlier examples, which don't fit the dichotomy.'

[Red-Blaze]

@SirTrolol that was my first reply
And who said anything about mindless before you?
I guess you go all the way with your name :)

[Price511]

@Red-Blaze I would suggest looking at Trolol’s opinions, looking into those made me realize that they were simply just an online internet troll. That’s why I didn’t interact with them, because gauging based on their opinions it’s very likely they aren’t here for any reasonable discourse. I do however believe the others are reasonable people and can possibly be interested in genuine discourse over this topic, to which I will oblige.
Also thank you for the compliments, I’m merely trying to remain objective. :) I understand people can feel very strongly about this, me included, but in discussions like this it’s best to try and leave emotions at the door and to focus on trying to see if we can come to an understanding.

[Price511]

Also, to anybody else who reads the opinions (I know some of you are following closely), I will take a little extra time to respond to the recent wave of them, if you don’t mind. I want to articulate my answers a bit and try to be thoughtful on the input given before answering.

[Pterodon]

I’m not going to argue with a punk teenage little boy

[Bel2718]

"It really depends on what your definition of a “real” man or woman is."

Does it? Well, I go by the universally accepted, dictionary definition of the term, that being the sex of a person is determined prior to birth (XX or XY chromosomes), and that if a person is female when they reach 18 then they become a woman, and if they're male and turn 18 they become a man. Also, that area between your legs is a good indicator as well. Check down there, you might notice a difference between the two genders.

[LiamJHayden]

The people here are not talking about the special cases like those who have Swyer or de la Chapelle or variances from XX or XY.

[Anonymous]

No. And it's not transphobic to say so, it's simply the truth, and people need to stop being so delusional.

If a trans whatever was the real thing, they wouldn't use hormones, get surgeries and try "to pass" as the real thing. That's why trans women are trans, and not real women, because they are men who for whatever reason want to look like women, and to do that they modify their bodies.

Transition isn't a magic thing, is a medical treatment to help mentally ill individuals who can't handle how their bodies look, being trans is a condition, it's something that needs respect and treatment, but it isn't magical and beautiful, is anorexia magical and beautiful? People with eds also feel extremely bad in their bodies and try to change it constantly however they can, and yet I see nobody sane allowing them to do it, I see nobody cheering them and screaming "malnourished bodies are beautiful!"

Also, transitioning is something that's being taken extremely lightly these days and that's wrong, that's why there are more detransitioners as time passes.

[PainusNdeeAnus]

No!
And it’s so sad to see so many people with their entire lives ahead of them thinking that taking hormones and mutilating themselves will ever change that

whatever happened to being just uncomfortable in your body I remember what it was like to go through puberty my body flat out turned against me : I was growing like a weed, headaches, angry and horny all the time, just inhaling food and still starving, A girl could touch my elbow and my entire body will tingle, hair growing everywhere, voice cracking, pimples , started needing deodorant , needed to shower everyday , shaving, lifting weights and there was semen on everything

my point is the transition to adulthood is never a comfortable one it’s very frustrating, difficult and an emotional roller coaster there will/have been many people who didn’t like their body when it was changing

stop telling kids that they’re in the wrong body NO! you are just going through fucking puberty like a normal person but I get it why teach someone to love their body when you can say they have gender dysphoria and bill them every step of the way?

[rosek]

Another question: Are people who convince people with gender dysphoria that if they undergo surgeries, insert hormones into their body, and pretend to be something they aren't just abusers of those with mental health conditions? (the answer is yes).

Here's another one: Are people who think a man can be a woman misogynistic? (the answer is yes)

Another: Are people who think a man should be able to compete in a woman's sport erasing women's rights? (yes)

Another: Are people who think one can "identify" as something they are not opening the door for pedophilia? (yes).

Another: Are people who think you can identify as any gender giving people complexes and setting them up to try reach unattainable goals, and thus setting them up for continual failure? (yes)

One more: Are people who think you can identify as any gender anti-science and paving the way for more anti-scientific beliefs so that we have no structure in our society and really the only thing "right" is what the media and our government deem is right? (yes)

[loveslongnails]

The last time I researched this, here's what I found out:

Everyone who has been born from a human being to date, as far as we know, has had ONLY one reproductive system with all the necessary parts present to do their job.** I didn't say they were always perfectly functional, but all the parts were there for ONE and only ONE reproductive system, unless there was a birth defect.

** Well, what about hermaphrodites, you say? These are folks born with one full system and parts of another, but there is no known case where a person was BORN with the ability to make sperm AND the ability to get pregnant and give birth.

This reproductive system "test" is the simplest way to clarify the discussion of "what's my sex" or "what's my gender" if you are ok with the idea of 2 genders. If you're not, and you want to designate your "gender" by what you identify as, that's not the same as "how were you born", which to me answers the question of "are you really a man, or really a woman".

In the end, if you've got people who love you and you can love back, what difference does the word "real" matter? Not much, in my opinion.

[goaded]

Some things you may not know about Transgenderism! ↗

[MCheetah]

Why are we still talking about this in 2023? Mentally-ill men ("men-men") who are insecure with themselves to where they want to pretend to be the opposite gender and live as them, are objectively, scientifically, literally NOT women or female, and never will be! I really wish the Progressive Woke would stop gaslighting people with this Clown World bullsh*t!

https://www.youtube.com/embed/lYF-hdmkvYs

[SomeGuyCalledTom]

'Trans women' and 'real women' are, by definition, two different things. A real woman is a WOMAN, period. As in, she was born of the female sex and has remained of the female sex. She is no more or less than what nature has made her. Same goes for men. Anyone who thinks they can reject nature itself cannot also claim to be as "natural" as the group they're using artificial means to approximate. If they just wanna live in peace with their pronoun of choice, that's no skin off my back, and frankly, more power to them for finding their own sense of identity in this crazy world. But as soon as they start equating their 'passing' act with the real thing being imitated, and expect everyone else to just agree with this... well that's when I have to draw a line.

[annabananna]

I don’t judge them but I do have a hard time thinking of a trans woman the same as I do myself and other women. Genetic woman and I have had similar experiences only you will experience growing up as a girl and they don’t understand what it’s like to really have a female body either. I have yet to have met one that acts like a female either. The ones I have met have always acted like the stereotype female on steroids which is ok but it just isn’t the same mannerisms I’m used to my friends and I having.

[ZXCwWRQWz]

I don't think so but I don't want to be mean. If it's just about calling males who want to be called "she" and females wanting to be called "he", no problem so long as I don't forget.

But you have to forgive me if I slip sometimes and call a transwoman with a full-grown beard and shoulders wider than a man a "he" by accident.

The bigger problem to me is where these physiological differences matter like sports. This goes beyond courtesy to let Mary Gregory break four powerlifting world records in a single day. Where is the courtesy to the female contestants who didn't spend the bulk of their lives with extra testosterone?

[Price511]

That last part, I can understand the concerns about; sports integrity is important. However, if it helps, I can possibly dispel those concerns with basic knowledge about how HRT works. :)

So with the normal hormones the body produces, these are typically mitigated by hormone blockers during Hormone Replacement Therapy, or HRT for short. Testosterone levels would drop to make room for estrogen to take its place, and over the course of time the testosterone levels would reduce to what an average woman has. This typically takes about a year or so of HRT to take effect, but afterward it is a level playing field in regards to sports. Perhaps maybe there should be a bit of a barrier in terms of sports as to not give an unfair advantage, but not a whole barrier for the sport if you ask me.

Then again, you could also say that sports is made with the intent to emphasize biological advantages. Like how basketball favors those with longer legs, or how MMA favors those with sturdier bone structures, or the strength of your arm in a pitcher or quarterback. All of these favor those born with biological advantages regardless of gender or sex. But that’s a whole other topic that escapes my point entirely ^^’

Also don’t worry, my friends understand that sometimes people forget pronouns, just give a short acknowledgement, fix it, and move on. It happens, it’s a simple mistake that can easily be amended.

[rosek]

@Price511 Does hormone replacement for a year change the muscle fibers of the individual doing the hormone replacement? For example, women have 27 to 25% more type I muscle fibers than men, which are known as "slow-twitch muscle fibers." Type I fibers are aerobic muscles rich in blood-carrying myoglobin. By the same token, women's muscles have a greater capillary density. Does that change within one year? Can one year of hormone replacement reverse 18+ years of the body growing and working in a different way?

The average man is 5 feet 9 inches (in America). The average woman is 5 feet 4 inches. Will the hormone replacement change their height to be in line with the average height of the other gender? Or will they be an anomaly? And if they are an anomaly, why are they an anomaly? Is it because they are, perhaps, a different gender than they wish they were?

Women have a different pelvic structure than men, and this is for childbearing. Women have a larger inlet and outlet. Will that change with hormone replacement? And if not, why not?

[Price511]

@rosek While I can’t give a definitive and concise answer as to whether or not the endocrinology change will affect muscle fibers, I can say that studies do say they lose 5% of muscle strength, mass, and area (ultimately, beyond this answer it is out of my scope and I will concede on that until I can do some further research into such, I’d rather not say anything than say something inaccurate). I can also say a few things about the other questions you have:
- Yes, there is documented evidence that hormone replacement therapy has caused people to actually shrink or grow depending on what hormones they’re taking.
- Bone structure is a whole different thing entirely, though. Predetermined bone structure isn’t as easily changed, but this also varies a lot based on ethnic background and genetics on pelvic structure in general. (But I’m no anthropologist so take that with a grain of salt.)
- There is actually evidence in a study that those on HRT do not have any significant advantages over their peers, supported and headed by an advisor for the International Olympic Committee.

[ZXCwWRQWz]

@Price511 I don't like your evidence and you can call it primitive if you want. But transwomen don't pass that well in person. We can all notice their broader shoulders, deeper voices, etc. I see women who don't have these traits competing against each other and it seems unfair regardless of performance when there is one who is clearly not like them in all these ways.

I'm not a saint of defending women but I am a saint of defending what looks weird and fucked up. And so I think I'm in the right that this is obviously fucked up.

[Price511]

You’d be surprised how well some trans women pass, and how many of them don’t have deeper voices, wider shoulders, etc, but I can’t change your mind, only present what I can and hopefully you come to the conclusion yourself.
Though you and I definitely disagree on our definition of “fucked up,” your thresholds are yours to claim.
Hopefully at least this helped you gain some insight or understanding, even if it didn’t change anything on your opinions of them.

[TheorionMage]

Its how THEIR Psyche views themself to... and in... the world.
Most earnestly seek to modify their external superficial appearance such that those who do not 'know' the Trans's physical gender, do not realize they're superficially 'cross-dressing', unless they've undergone gender reassignment.

'Drag' performers study society's atavistic promulgated allure cues and oft hyper-sexualize to... in a way... perform saying, "Anything YOU can do... I CAN DO TOO and often better" because unlike YOU, I'm DEDICATED to exploiting YOUR preferences and prejudices as the 'price' of that gender's privilege.~

A distaff take on that ol '50's ballad: "Your lips tell me 'No, no...' but there's 'Yes, YES!!!' in your eyes (and pants!)

[Bellona]

it is not possible for a trans person to be the biological gender they identify with so it would be invalid for a trans person to consider themselves a genuine ('real') biological gender of the opposite gender they were born with.

a Woman is an adult female who produces eggs= cannot be real woman without eggs/characteristics

a Man is an adult male who produces sperm= and cannot be a real man without sperm/characteristics.

[lightbulb27]

no they are emotionally women but physically not. they can't make babies as far as I know (from their natural bodies).

they are people and deserve respect though. Lots of people have "perceptions" of themselves that don't align, in different ways.

[Asker]

What does it mean to be emotionally woman?

[lightbulb27]

feminine in thinking, dress, communication.

[Asker]

That’s nonsense

[DaisyM23]

yes but they have completely different experiences that separate them - think of it as intersectionality, white women have different experiences to woc, rich women have different experiences to poor women, western vs eastern etc - trans women go through transition maybe, have different feelings as women, biologically born as men so can't have children or periods and so lack that aspect associated with women

[Msputiton]

No can't change your biology.

Gender means what they identify as.

So they can identify as whatever gender they want and I think they should not be harrassed for their life choices either.

[mstbooblover]

That's exactly the sad drama of those trans people. I have a lot of sympathy for people having the courage to get their gender changed, while they deep inside themselves know they can't ever really belong to the gender they dream to be part of, and along the process they sadly loose the ability to have descendants. I'm still painfully aware that something about the subject escapes me.

[Random_g]

No they are not.. Real woman is a born woman, real man is a born man, trans woman is simply a trans woman and trans man is simple a trans man.

And it's not about bullying or transphobia or anything... It's just SIMPLY like that.

[Anonymous]

No, you can never be something you're not. To quote "what is a woman", a woman is an adult human female.. Born with 2x chromosomes.

No matter how many surgeries you have no matter how many drugs you take, you cannot change that. There is a special place in hell for the biological men competing in women's sports stealing their scholarships and records.

[bayoubob]

With this "spectrum" Daddy SHIT, science can't evolve. It can't. The Left loves themselves SCIENCE. Why don't they act like it? If you truly want to be behind science you must have 2 Genders. You have to have it. No if's and's or but's about it. When you muddy the waters so much, to coincide with butthurts, it will take literally probably thousands of years for science to catch up evolutionary speaking. These are facts.

[Alexandrubaschet08]

No, not at all. No mather how much society will lie itself