Do you believe that men and women think and act the same in the absence of social conditioning?

[YAsQuen]

It seems to be that modern feminism is loosely based on the fact that that mens and womens minds work in exactly the same way if u excluded any and all curent social conditioning.

So here's my question DO YOU think that men and women would behave exactly the same if we all came together and started raising our younglings `the right way`?

My opinion:

If u consider evolutional theory and accepted the fact that women are smaller/weaker than men. You will understand that the two genders brains work differently.

Different but equal. Different strengths same value. Ying and Yang.

I'll shortly say that i dont want ANY preferential treatment to happen.

Women's and men's brains work exactly the same

There are distinct male and female behavioural patterns

[DaySpring]

First, we have to definite mind and conditioning.

• Mind - Activity (conscious & subconscious)
• Conditioning - Specific, hard wired activity

You are asking if inborn conditioning leads to women and men acting the same in the absence of nurture or cultural conditioning.

We'd have to do a study in a vacuum but I believe that males and females would act much more similarly. However, no male is going to act exactly the same as another and no female is going to act exactly the same as the males. We all might have similar inborn conditioning but some may have a hyper urge for survival or sex etc.

Honestly if you really wanna solve a lot of the worlds problems... Find a way to engineer inborn conditioning... I think this is already in the works. AND start creating your OWN culture. Tackling it from both ends: nature and nurture. Stop reliving some old culture from god knows when. Create your own culture then build it within. You need to study self discipline and how it works to do that. Anyway I'm getting side tracked because I love creativity. @YAsQuen I do think that is enough information to form a more developed opinion than most on the question. I at least shed light on the mind so it's not as abstract.

[YAsQuen]

ok im gonna make it real simple.

If we raised a wold and a chimpanzee the exact same way would they bahave differently yes or no.

This is a thought experiment no need to be all fancy schmanzy about just asnwer the question

[YAsQuen]

wolf

[Anonymous]

Men and women are the same in most ways, but also fundamentally different in some important ways. Social conitioning has little to do with that, and science backs that up.

Girls' brains develop earlier than boys', and social conditioning has nothing to do with that.

Women have a stronger sense of intuition and are better able to pick up on social cues, and social conditioning has nothing to do with that.

Women tend to be better listeners and have a different style of communicating than men. Women give more details when they talk, whereas men speak more abstractly. The phrase "just the facts, ma'am" exists for a reason. Social conditioning has nothing to do with that.

https://www.psychmechanics.com/women-good-listeners/

Men are more interested in things, and women are more interested in people. Social conditioning has nothing to do with that. It's why, despite the billions of dollars that have been spent trying to push more females into STEM fields have had little effect. Social conditioning has nothing to do with that.

Men's and women's brains are different. Men tend to have more brain grey matter while women have more white matter, and that impacts behavior, strength and weaknesses. Social conditioning has nothing to do with that.

It has become politically incorrect to acknowledge the differences between men and women, but that doesn't change the fact that those differences exist.

[YAsQuen]

now do climate change

[Opinion Owner]

Huh?

[Potteplante]

We're more similar than we differ.

You know what we people want? A roof over our head, food on our table, work (yes we humans actually do not do well sitting on our asses twisting our fingers) - we like to self realize - through our friends and family. What is praised: within the different genders differs already from infant, we treat children, again often already from their infants - differently.

Let's praise you men for your appearance for a while - make y'all feel like pretty little boys, who belong inside doing crafts while the girls get to go out and play. 👍

[YAsQuen]

i dont undertand what ur saying. Nowhere in my question did i say that those behavioural differnces are absolute an or extreme. Im just asking for ANY difference. Which u dont seem to realize.

So u realize that there ARE differnces but still insist on treating them the same? What if that is harmful? Would you treat a donkey and a snake the same? What would happen if u treated a donkey like a snake? It would starve mylady.

[devilish-cutie]

Its the same, hear me out, people keep looking male vs female, but its more about personality than gender, genetics if you will. Do dumb and intelligent people think/act the same? No, but it has nothing to do w gender. Dumb men think different than intelligent women and vice versa. Dumb people think similar, as intelligent ones.

[YAsQuen]

Are u familiar with evolutionary theory?

In short : A series of decendents get `molded`into a certain environment. Environment refers to not only nature but also social circles and any old random happen stance.

Ie smaller predators will tend to eat and hunt smaller prey when compared to larger predators.
Smaller creatures have a tendency to be more avoided of other animals think mice and lions.

This process shapes the mind and body of this series of descendents to have the best chance of survival in said environment.

Now my question to you: Do you believe that since women are smaller and weaker they are shaped by differnent environmental influences than men?

Feel free to ask for clarifications but in my opinion its impossible to argue otherwise. But since we can never be 100% sure about anything (do we live in a simulation?) its still just my opinion and not fact.

[devilish-cutie]

Yes i do think that our physical state affects our mental one as well. Women are weaker, can get pregnant and have periods, that will eg. make you be more reluctant to sex as there is more at stake than for men, but brain isn't different by itself.

[YAsQuen]

but u just said that women engage in differnet behavioural patterns cuz of their biology? ...`that will eg. make you be more reluctant to sex as there is more at stake than for men`...

So what are u arguing? that behaviour is not linked to the brain and we are arguing semantics?

Or (what i suspect) ur uncomfortable adressing reality like it is. Because the second you accept that they are different you also have to accept that they have different strengths. And we can't have that can we?

Anyway pls clarify what your arguing because i can't really follow ur logic.

[devilish-cutie]

Intelligence and talens have nothing to do with gender so both male and female brain function in that regard the same. I don't know what different strengths there are that you argue, in what way our brains are different according to you?
Im arguing that thinking is different cause of circumstances, due to your body abilities, but that doesn't mean the brain os different. Blind or deaf person will think different cause of their body restrictions, but they dont have different brain from the person that osnt blind/deaf

[devilish-cutie]

Oh yeah, social condictioning is in a way also set circumstances so it does effect it, but yes we would also thibk different cause of our body circumstances, but that doesn't mean social conditioning doesn't also play a part

[YAsQuen]

`Intelligence and talents have nothing to do with gender` There is in fact evidence that both of these are correlated to gender in humans. The intelligence disribution seems to be on a broader curve for men when compared to women ie more dumb dumbs AND more einsteins.

Secondly talents seem to be correlated aswell since ur preferences shape ur `training`throughout childhood.
Its pretty much rock solid that 2 year old babies show significant differnces in what toys they choose ( Ask any parent they will tell you).

Im arguing that since the bodies ARE different (which noone disputes) and evolution is real there is no way women DONT think differently. I dont believe u really unerstand how evolution works. Thats seems to be the issue here.

Also there is something like a physical male and female brain. Certain brain regions are differently sized when compared to others in males and females. Granted this is not perfect and there are plenty of overlaps but still. Not to mention that mens brains are 10% ish bigger.
I already asked you to exclude social conditioning from ur thinking process and here u bring in back in...

I think pretty much along the stereotypical lines when it comes to strenghts in the genders. Ie men can handle more stress. Women are stretchier. Women are more emotional. Men are more comeptitive.

I want to add that i personally dont think that men and women are literally opposite when it comes to these traits.
I think that u can't accept reality since ur whole world would come crashing down if u did.

[BourbonAndBacon]

"Its the same, hear me out"

The latest neuro studies back this up. Our minds start out as blank slates and we gravitate to social norms influenced largely by our genetics

[YAsQuen]

@BourbonAndBacon biased studies exist everywhere. Why are the gender differnces in scandinavia growing?

[BourbonAndBacon]

Same reason why gender differences aren't growing in America. Social norms

[YAsQuen]

@BourbonAndBacon so scandinavia is more sexist than america?

[devilish-cutie]

One could say studies you believe in are biased and your world could crumble down so there are no real arguments here and we can just agree to disagree.

[D_Bone_Steak]

"It seems to be that modern feminism is loosely based on the fact that that mens and womens minds work in exactly the same way if u excluded any and all curent social conditioning." - I think you're 100% correct here minus the misspelling and grammar. 😂

I don't think male and female brains work the same AT FUCKING ALL for the most part. Not saying one is better than the other... they are fucking different as all fuck though.

[goaded]

Of course there are differences. If your head could be kept alive without the rest of your body, would your gender change? That, simply put, is the reason for transgenderism.

Some things you may not know about Transgenderism!

[jahaims]

It doesn't matter because it isn't a matter of belief. There is hard science on this topic. Male and female brains are literally structured differently. A woman's hippocampus, critical to learning and memorization, is larger than a man's and works differently. Conversely, a man's amygdala, associated with the experiencing of emotions and the recollection of such experiences, is bigger than a woman's.

[Anonymous]

Yes men and women are fundamentally different in several ways. Not accepting that isn't feminism but pseudoscience. You can be a feminist and accept basic science too. Otherwise you're no different from the religious people you always demonize.

[YAsQuen]

So your granting that they are different. OK since they are differnt should we still treat them the same?
Or should we, since they are different, adapt to make sure not to mistreat one over the other?

ie i would argue that men need physical exercise way more than women do.
Since men and women think differently maybe it would be alright to have and or allow male only gyms?

Can i say that women tend to be more emotional than men?

[Opinion Owner]

I believe in equal rights and opportunities but not in affirmative action or forced diversity/inclusion.

[YAsQuen]

very respectable. Since ur a feminist can i ask you if u went to university?

Is it sexist to uther the words women tend to be more emotional than men?

[Opinion Owner]

I don't claim to be a feminist. There are a lot of different connotations to that word which I'd rather not want to burden myself with.
To answer you're question I am currently a student. And I don't think it's sexist to say that women tend to be more emotional than men.

[YAsQuen]

very based

[Opinion Owner]

If by based you mean sexist or misogynist then I'm not that. If you simply means someone who sees things as they are rather than how other people say they should be then yeah you could say I'm based lol.

[YAsQuen]

the media censorship is really bad. Based is short for based in reality.

[Noether]

@YAsQuen

In reality, women and men are equally emotional, the difference is that women are more expressive. This is also a large part of why although women are more commonly diagnosed with depression, men are more likely to commit suicide: Women are more expressive which makes it easier to diagnose them when they have depression, and they are more likely to deal with their depression by finding a way to communicate their issues, while men generally hide how they feel and are more repressed, which makes them build up such a degree of negative emotion that they feel there is no way out but to kill themselves.

[Opinion Owner]

@Noether

I get you're point and I'm not even trying to deny that. But you mentioning that women are more expressive does point out to the behavioral differences between men and women.

[Noether]

@Opinion Owner

It is difference in behavior but not an automatic difference that is not directed by higher order cognitive processes, unlike urinating, breathing, ejaculating or menstruating. More of it is a learned behavior rather than instinctual.

In Heian Japan for example men were expected to be very sensitive and expressive since this was viewed as refinement and perceptiveness to the impermanence of worldly things, men crying and dramatic declarations of longing were considered a standard part of courting for men, and not just when it came to women but also in other things like in considering existential matters or looking at nature men were expected to be sensitive since that was viewed as an indication of a refined person, like the Heian version of the “übermensch” in Nietzsche’s philosophy. In our society on the other hand it’s pretty much the reverse; men are expected to be less emotional, so in practice they pretend to be less emotional than they actually are and stifled as a result, which is unhealthy. Different societies have different behaviors which are viewed as appropriate for men and women, and they often contradict the ideas of other societies, while I don’t say that this is true of every behavior that we perceive to be masculine or feminine, it is true of several of them. As such the natural differences between men and women, those that are not dependent on which society you live in are not the same and are just a subset of the all the differences in behavior between men and women, some of which are artificial and limited to certain societies while others are ubiquitous. Generally, those that involve thought are learned behaviors while those that are automatic or (like breathing, feeling thirst, and other natural physical processes including sex specific things like menstruating or having an erection) are instinctual.

[Opinion Owner]

@Noether

Gender roles are in my opinion partly biological and partly a social construct. It's not absolute but it's also not completely artificial. And even if it's assumed to be purely a social construct there's a reason it evolved that way and not the other way round. That being said I am saying again that it's not absolute and it's not something that should be enforced. But it's also not unnatural and artificial.

[Noether]

@Opinion Owner

And then there are a few learned behaviors that are closer to being instinctual as even lower order animals can do it since it requires so little cognitive processing, like putting food in one’s mouth or the basics of sex, and others that have some tenuous relation to automatic processes but involve so many learned behaviors that they’re closer to being completely artificial

[Noether]

@Opinion Owner

Not all gender roles are equally artificial/natural is the point. Some are much more artificial than others and they shouldn’t all be lumped together. If they’re things that are the opposite of the standard of a different society or time it’s a good indication that that specific behavior is artificial– like pink for girl and blue for boys, or heels on men (they were originally men’s riding shoes) or certain other matters of fashion, then there are other aspects of men’s/women’s fashion that are more consistently found in different societies, ‘gender-related fashion universals’ if you will, but they seem to be less common than the culture-specific standards, in much the same way that there are a handful of linguistic universals that relate to how humans think and reflect our natural thought processes but most of the similarities between a handful of languages in the same sprachbund or family are arbitrary and specific to that group, the universals of male and female behavior are likewise fewer than the culturally depended, artificial differences.

[Opinion Owner]

@Noether

I'd actually agree with you in case of fashion. I'm particularly talking more about behavioral patterns.

[Noether]

And other matters of male/female behavior in different societies other than dress, like how they expected to interact with other people can also be more artificial or more natural, like women curtsying and men bowing in Europe was a thing in societies because women commonly wore more elaborate head ware in Europe, while in Korean or Indian culture they both traditionally bow.

[Noether]

@Opinion Owner

Or another example aside from fashion relating to male/female behavior would be how in certain parts of the world it’s normal for men to be less physically intimate with friends of the same gender than women, while in others both men and women might kiss their friends on the cheek or hold hands and this is viewed as completely platonic.

[Noether]

@Opinion Owner

And whether men are expected to be emotionally expressive and sensitive or whether this is viewed as effeminate is also different depending on where you live on the world and at what period in history. Western women are expected to be more emotionally expressive, and research has shown that to meet this expectation women are more likely to exaggerate their facial expressions, especially for positive emotion and historically in the West women would sometimes purposely faint since women were expected to be much more emotional and sensitive, while men pretend to be less emotional by suppressing their emotions, and are more likely to develop alcohol addictions or commit suicide as a result. In Heian society women were expected to be more aloof and distant while men were expected to exhibit their emotions more openly.

[YAsQuen]

@Noether men surpress because noone cares women included

[YAsQuen]

women are even worse than men most of the time

[Noether]

@YAsQuen

In societies where emotional expressiveness is/was viewed as a desirable thing, people cared more about guys crying, it was even viewed as a sexually desirable trait. Making out that emotional expressiveness is inherently feminine has created a vicious cycle where people assume that men aren’t as emotional as women, since they hide them most of the time and some people view emotion in a man as some kind of pathology. But studies have actually shown that women prefer more vulnerable men, because they feel safer and more protected around them and feel more intimate with them than they do around those that are emotionally repressed. Emotionally repressed people, men or women, are powder kegs, while those that normally express their emotions and communicate how they feel are more emotionally stable and end up being less stressed

[Noether]

@YAsQuen

This bitterness against women is just a symptom of unhealthy repressed emotion being let by lashing out at others and externalizing your emotions instead of being vulnerable and expressing your own insecurities, further fueled and validated by the bitter, unhealthy emotional reactions of other repressed people externalizing their own emotions instead of being vulnerable about their own insecurities… It can happen with men or women and over things other than the “gender war”, and the internet is a petri dish for this kind of bitter vicious cycle. There are plenty of kind, decent people in the world, men and women. Go to some event or sign up for some kind of club and meet some.

[YAsQuen]

@Noether This whole men and women are equally emotional if we just allowed it is bullshit. Its a sligh trick honestly. They said oh look women cry way more that means men surpress their tears right? huge oversimplification. And this whole myth about men bullying other men for crying is so overdone. Its mostly women who dont wanna acknowledge that mens emotions are simply different. Womens hubris to believe that their emotionality is the only true one causes this whole misunderstanding between the genders ( 1 of endless)

No women likes men that never epress ANY emotion.100 agree. But most women dislike men, that cry over minor stuff, like failing a test in highschool. I would argue that our society but especially women need to be told more that their crying over stuff is not gonna change the facts. I would argue most men have a way healthier grasp on their emotionality when compared to most women.

mens lifes a simply harder thats why they kill themselves more. Thats also why womens suicide rates are slowly catching up to mens (without the mens ones falling). It s not like ANYONE is telling women to be less emotional and still they kill themselves more. Strange almost as if blaming something like suicide on 1 singular thing is retarded af.

Bro go ask some female to male trans people and ask them about their emotionality before and after. Im not even gonna say its LESS but its distinctevly different. Testosterone affects A LOT.

Mens tear ducts are bigger and need more water to spill over. Test makes it harder to cry absent of how sad you are. AND AND AND. There is actually so much wrong with this bs its mindboggling.

[YAsQuen]

@Noether Im kinda bitter about women. Not even gonna lie. Its just sad that feminism and broader society is rotting the character of anyone inside of it. Its a sad situation. Completly avoidable hence im bitter.

[Opinion Owner]

@Noether

Let me reframe my stance. Both men and women are emotional but they tend to express their emotions different. Men tend to react more aggressively while women tend to cry more. And this hasn't got anything to do with societal condition. Depending on the situation men can also cry and women can also get aggressive. But that doesn't change the natural tendencies.

[Noether]

According to studies on the topic, men and women feel just as much emotion. If as you say men have more difficult lives, then the fact that they express emotions even less than women just demonstrates the point that they are more emotionally repressed. That said, women have challenges in their lives that men will never have, both biological and societal, just as men have their own unique challenges which women do not have. Emotion is a human thing, not a woman thing, and expressing how you feel and being vulnerable prevents emotions from building up resulting in a more extreme, unhealthy reaction later on. Women are also more commonly diagnosed with depression than men and are more likely to contemplate suicide, the differences in actual suicide rates are related to how they deal with negative emotion (confiding in others when they feel hopeless or suicidal vs. bottling it up and resorting to alcohol abuse or suicide as an outlet), not the depression itself. Crying is just one way to express sadness, you can cover your head with your hands, experience a headache or have stomach pain, express your feelings in words and sound incredibly sad without actually producing tears. I knew a girl growing up who did not have functioning tear ducts as a child, so she was physically incapable of crying until she got surgery later in life, yet she had no issues expressing sadness, so men having larger tear ducts is not the reason why they are less expressive.

Increased testosterone levels make one more irritable and emotionally reactive, as do fluctuations in estrogen levels. Testosterone not some kind of calming draught that makes one more composed.

[Noether]

@Opinion Owner
^why they are less expressive, in the West

[YAsQuen]

@Noether Can studies be biased and or flawed or even deceptive on purpose? ur answer is yes.
Have they been in the past? ur answer is yes.
Are they now? ur answer is no.

I would argue that the accepted opinion has never been more confined than in recent years. I understand u would argue otherwise. Its an orthodoxy. A religion. Believe without evidence.

YOU WILL realize but its gonna be to late. Best of luck.

Also small treat how do u categorize something like emotions? Like seriously how? How are u gonna go around with a straight face talking about studying emotional levels by looking at brain waves.

show me a scientist with a believe and they will find evidence to support their theory.

//Again the HUBRIS to not realize that men work through emotions differently. // sadge thats exactly why men can't open up to women. They always (most of the time) turn it around make it about how they would feel instead of LISTENING. Just one more way feminism has ruined any chance of healthy relationships

[Noether]

@Opinion Owner

And yes, I’m with you if what you’re saying is that the types of emotional imbalances characteristic of heightened by differences fluctuations in testosterone levels are different in certain ways (and similar for others, like irritability) than those resulting from fluctuations in estrogen. My point is merely that both hormones are associated with hormonal fluctuations, which occur throughout the day for young men– as test levels peak in the morning and are at their lowest around 8pm, and for for young women it varies depending on where she is along her cycle.

[YAsQuen]

@Noether the NEED for everything to be equal proves my point. The whole point of my question.

Its an orthodoxy. u WILL realize.

[Noether]

@YAs Quen

You only call it biased and want to dismiss it because it’s contrary to what you already believe (ie. your own biases), if I were to so lazily dismiss peer reviewed research supporting what you said you would say that I was prioritizing feelings over facts, and that is exactly what you’re doing here. To make a counterargument you need to bring up studies of your own that call into doubt the conclusions of my study, not waffle about how studies can sometimes be conducted improperly resulting in bias, as anyone could use that to dismiss any study they didn’t like if nothing else were required

[YAsQuen]

whole point of *original* question

[Noether]

@YAs Quen

They’re different, but absolutely no one honestly believes that excessive test levels make you calm and composed, because they obviously do not, and the same is true of excessive estrogen levels. If that is untrue and you think the more testosterone you have, the more calm and composed you become, prove it.

[Noether]

@YAs Quen

And if you were paying any attention to what I said, then you would know that I was discussing degree, not dealing in absolutes

[YAsQuen]

@Noether when did i claim that? There is a differnce between the maximum possible amount and having more than someone else.

Lets just skip ALL OF THAT. what about periods? hormonal fluctuations right? SO. What about ovulation? Its so bs to relate the daily test fluctuations in men to the fluctuations in women during their cycle.

[YAsQuen]

@Noether Oh honey. U actually still believe this is an equal playing field? U have no idea how deep this goes. Google Youtube Advertizers UNIVERSITIES NGO `Factcheckers`the Media.

Its an orthodoxy and u will realize it. Strangely enough all of the studies that would prove my point (which were done before the orthodoxy fully engagend in its strangelhold) are now considerd bullshit pseudoscience cuz of sexist scientist. In other words these were discredited with the exact same reasoining im bringing forwards.

Hey i know i won't change your mind. I know I won't. Maybe u want to look into Peter Bhogassian. Dont even go for his opinions just his story getting fired as a professor. He is in youtube same name.

[Noether]

@YAs Quen

Although women have less testosterone than men and more estrogen, women still have much more testosterone than estrogen overall. For non-pregnant, premenopausal women normal estradiol levels fluctuate by a factor of ~8 over their cycles but remain between 30-400 pg/dL (estrone is produced after menopause and estriol is produced during pregnancy), while the normal range normal of testosterone levels for women is 8-60 ng/dL: A nanogram is 1,000 times larger than a picogram, and men normally have 800-1,200 ng/dL of testosterone.

The amount of testosterone variation in men is highest for men in their 20s and decreases with age (total testosterone one also declines with age). There is also seasonal variation, with testosterone levels a little over twice as high in October as they are in March. Young women’s estrogen levels fluctuate by a higher factor, but the total hormonal change resulting from this are smaller than the total hormonal change in a man throughout the day because there is much less estrogen present than testosterone even in women and men in turn have much more testosterone than women. The only way the testosterone fluctuations could be less significant than the estrogen is if estrogen is much more potent than testosterone, enough to counterbalance the fact that there is 2000-40,000 times as much testosterone in men (under the age of 45) as there is estrogen in (premenopausal, non-pregnant) women. At 30-40 (men’s daily hormonal fluctuations are lower at this age than when they’re in their twenties but this was the youngest I could find a precise range on for mornings vs. evenings). Estradiol is indeed much more potent than testosterone in the same concentrations, but by a factor of 1,000, which means at most the hormonal effects of estrogen on women during their cycle is around half as potent as the hormonal fluctuations of men in their 30s

[Noether]

@YAs Quen

Buddy, it’s fine for studies to discover things that were missed by older studies. If they have something to counter the new studies, they should rebut it after those studies are presented with a study of their own that explains what the other study overlooked or other specific issues with the particular points made. Stop waffling and present actual counterpoints to those expressed in my studies specifically that prove your claims. I get it that you like to present yourself as edgy by characterizing anything that you don’t agree with as orthodox so you don’t have to contend with the points made but can be lazy, but that’s all it is.

[YAsQuen]

@Noether hahah. Sure universities are unbiased. No its cool.

[YAsQuen]

@Noether Answer my question. What about the cycle>Hormone fluctuataion >emotionality

And dont give me daily test fluc = montly cycle fluc

NOT the same

Since everything is biased i have to refer to logic only.

[YAsQuen]

@Noether @Noether Test level might have been found to be twice as low my one flawed study. Fine. Again its not comparable to the daily monthly shit thats going on in womens bodies. YOU KNOW its true.

Here is theory on why the march October gap might exist> Less sunlight less vitamin D> less test
just a theory dont quot eme on that.

Again comparing a men in his thirties to a man in his late teens is such a DISHONEST comparison. we are talking 1-2 decades.

Again not compareable to the daily monthly thing goin on in womens bodies.

[Noether]

@YAsQuen

I broke it down quantitatively, look it ver for yourself. And it’s not equal, since there is a minimum of 2,000 times much testosterone in a younger man’s body as estrogen in a younger non-pregnant woman’s body at all times, but estrogen is only 1,000 times as potent as testosterone.

[Noether]

@YAsQuen

And you have no proof that that study was “flawed”, it’s just a baseless accusation you levy against anything you don’t like because it makes you feel nice. Median testosterone levels for men in August-October range from 14.7-15.1 ng/dL (14,700 pg/ng), while in March the median is 6.2 ng/dL (6,200 pg/ng). For women estradiol levels peak in the luteal phase just before ovulation, at 0.11-0.41 ng/dL (110-410 pg/ng).

[Noether]

@YAsQuen
^(14,700-15,100 pg/ng)

[Noether]

@YAsQuen

And oc studies can be biased just like cars can crash and glass can break. Saying “studies can be biased” isn’t a point you can bring up every time someone says something you don’t agree with without discussing any specific issues with the particular study being discussed, as if you assume you can never be wrong and anything that contradicts you must always be biased and flawed.

[YAsQuen]

@Noether Lets do a simple thought experiment.

Is (most of) what they taught about feminism in uni or even school relying on the fact that those two are (roughly) the same?
Would parts or even your entire worldview shatter right then and there?

Yes or no questions. I dont want no fancy schmanzy response just some honesty. Im going somewhere with this.

[Noether]

@YAsQuen

Address each my specific points before demanding I answer your questions.

You’re not willing to actually have a good faith argument, you just bring pull up straw men to divert from the actual topic without ever of dealing with the specific points actually being discussed. It’s sleazy and shows how dishonest you are.

[Noether]

@YAsQuen

My data on testosterone levels in men came from an endocrinological study conducted for the purpose of improving medical treatment. My data on women’s hormone levels came from a separate study came from a medical article on female fertility and hormones. This is just useful health information, the fact that you act like simple medical observations that help people improve their health are some kind of ideological feminist conspiracy just shows how far you’ll reach to avoid having a good faith discussion

[YAsQuen]

@Noether Really good indoctrination. Spot on. Its so good that u can almost always reverse the meaning and ull be closer to the truth. Flawless.
I highly encourage u look into why peter boghassian got fired as a philosophy professor. If u watch some of his other videos u might actually learn how to argue in good faith.

Pls look into why he got fired. He is not a nut i promise. He writes peer reviwed papers and stuff. Maybe get some fresh opinions. You dont need to agree but gosh diddeldy u would benefit from some opposing viewpoints.

[Noether]

@YAsQuen

Again, you keep deflecting and evading, like a sleazy used car salesman, because your arguments are weak and you know it.

[YAsQuen]

@Noether turn it around. It s really good. They found a way to equate moral superiority with straight up lies. Good job on them. Look into boghossian and why he got fired. Its not like im saying santa exists or anything. He was mainstream until he wasn't. Like many many others.

[YAsQuen]

ull know u ACTUALLY have been well educated when u can argue ur point without endlessly throwing studies around. And if i have to explain why that might be a problem i really can't help u. These professors should honestly be ashamed at themselves at this point.

[YAsQuen]

Ad hominems. Arguments of authority. Void of any critical thinking skills. Zero self reflection. Its like ur not even aware of your surroundings. Literally asleep.

Just one thing i mentioned early something along the lines of this flawed study claiming test levels drop by half over year. Flawed proly wasn't the correct term in that context. Inconclusiv, Irrelevant or whatever. Not important really but u really have shown ur true colors since then thats why i thought mentioning it might calm you down.

[Noether]

@YAsQuen
Speaking to you is a complete waste of time because you’ve proven yourself over and over agin to be incapable of responding to any arguments presented. You simply come up with some insult as an excuse to be lazy and avoid addressing it and then rinse and repeat.

[YAsQuen]

@Noether same same

[Noether]

@YAsQuen
An ad hominem is when you don’t address the arguments a person makes but deflect by attacking someone personally, by comparing the person to Boghossian for example

[YAsQuen]

@Noether u missunderstood i wasn't comparing you to boghassian im telling you to look into his story

[Noether]

@YAsQuen

Discrediting studies you didn’t even bother to look up by alleging that they must come from biased sources is also illogical.

[YAsQuen]

www.dailymail.co.uk/.../...nation-letter-full.html

still hits the spot

[Noether]

@YAsQuen

If by “hits the spot” you mean irrelevant to the points actually brought up and just another attempt to deflect, then sure.

[YAsQuen]

@Noether did u even open it? Its a open letter about his opinion on thought policing on campus which led to his resignation. Portland Uni not a christian fundamentalist flat earth primary school.

Believe me when i say that u need to hear opposing viewpoints. Its going to make ur arguments so much more poignant. Dont be scared about opposing viewpoints its not gonna bite

[Noether]

@YAsQuen
Yes, and it doesn’t address the actual points I made

[YAsQuen]

@Noether Did i claim it would? U think im all narrow minded and all meanwhile u think about me as this incel fat loser racist closeted gay midget who is balding. Hence u dont listen cuz u dont enter the argument neutraly but dare i say all emotionally charged.

[Noether]

@YAsQuen

I think it’s an accepted standard of conversation to respond to points the other person brings up in the discussion. I listened to what you said and responded to you but you don’t seem to understand basic reciprocity

[YAsQuen]

@Noether u didn't respond to anything i said. U went to google and copy pasted the first thing that came up remotely somewhat fleetingly related (not really)

[YAsQuen]

@devilish-cutie @Noether
I just think its fishy that we decided to throw out every study about gender differnces in the seventies.1. Is that a fair opinion to hold or did i lose u already?
All old ones have been thrown out. No that is HIGHLY unusual. If new discoveries are made opinion about previous studies shifts all the time but they aren't declared sexist pseudoscience just because they contradict the new ones.
two differnet schools of thought on gender diffences one pre and one post censorship wave. I know which one im trusting more.
//Singular studies are pretty much worthless and none of us is an expert on this topic hence they become completly useless in normal everyday discussions which is why im always reverting back to base logic (which ur free to disagree with) which normally gets ignored and or ´answered`by googling and copy pasting the newest hobacken.//
2. Why does behavior in female to male trans individual shift in a stereotypical manner after taking testosterone. Why is the opposite the case for male to female trans people.
3. (pre AI) Can we really determine how stressed or happy or anxious someone is by averaging out 1000 peoples bodily outpust in comparison to brain activity`? aren't u the guys that always go on about subjectivity? Dont we have to assume from the get go that male and female brains are equivalent to even try to make this one work?

[YAsQuen]

3. Given evolution is real. Given male and female bodies show physical differences. How likely is it that there are ANY differnces. And how big might those be. fair? yes no?
Big differnce in physical bodies BIG differnce in social roles. lions. Praying mantis. gorilla
Now compare animals with similar size> Penguins Dolphins cats> less behavioural differences
(humans are definetly closer to this one).
This is obviously not meant to be taken as an absolute. Im 100 certain u will find exceptions.
4. Do you really think that the gender that carries and nurses young doesn't think different than the smash and dash gender? ( I know that humans should be raised as common children in small to medium village/communes.)

Dont outsource your thought processes when answering to google or anything similar.

[YAsQuen]

//mens lifes a simply harder thats why they kill themselves more. Thats also why womens suicide rates are slowly catching up to mens (without the mens ones falling). It s not like ANYONE is telling women to be less emotional and still they kill themselves more. Strange almost as if blaming something like suicide on 1 singular thing is retarded af.//

Why are mens suicide rates linked to how much surpress (or not) their emotions but womens aren't?

[YAsQuen]

//Lets just skip ALL OF THAT. what about periods? hormonal fluctuations right? SO. What about ovulation? Its so bs to relate the daily test fluctuations in men to the fluctuations in women during their cycle.//
Are u really equating yearly and decadel (?) hormonal shifts to ones that happen on a monthly well documented curve where its very common that people that experience said waves say they are and feel emotioal? also ignored

[YAsQuen]

And also that whole estradol to testosterone conversion sounds insane. Sad really. OH estrogen is that much more effective hence u can math and this and that and avergae and stretch. You sound just like those professors that do those flawed experiments im talking about. You start with the conclusion and then go look for evidence.

[YAsQuen]

1 in for women is a real good example of flawed studies. its actually closer to 1 /35

[Noether]

@YAsQuen

I didn’t copy paste anything. I presented data from medical studies instead of pulling assertions out of nowhere like you did and then made my own quantitative argument that is supported by the data and explained my own (not some professor’s) argument clearly.
Every single claim you made and question you asked, from why you think men kill themselves more to comparisons between daily (and seasonal) fluctuations in men was addressed in my responses, but
Instead of responding to the actual points I made, you resorted to ad hominems and called the arguments I made, my own arguments, based on raw data “indoctrination” (as if you have any idea what my academic background is. You accuse me of thinking of you as a narrow minded, incel and meanwhile you act like you think you are omnipotent and have the faintest clue what my educational background is and imagine I’ve ever had professors who read feminist literature or taught about feminism… and your assumption is so off it makes you sound ridiculous and “void of any critical thinking skills”) and dismissed the entire thing as a “fancy shmanzy response”. Just address the points I already made before making any additional arguments claims or I’ll give them exactly the same regard that you’ve given what I’ve said, and reciprocate by not answering them.

[Noether]

@YAsQuen

Yes, people who actually care about intellectual honesty use precise, falsifiable arguments which often involve exact measurements and express their arguments clearly and in detail, as I have done. Conmen and snake oil salesmen make sweeping generalizations, pull claims out of thin air and mock people who demonstrate they care about accuracy and thorough present their arguments, since those often threaten to dismantle the claims they pulled out of nowhere

[Noether]

@YAsQuen

I already said you need to address the specific arguments I made already and I won’t respond to claims that don’t address my specific points until you do, but will reciprocate with the same level of attentiveness that you give to my own points.

[YAsQuen]

@Noether clarify ur points then cuz i can't see any

[YAsQuen]

come one? you wrote that whole bullshit about picoliter amount of hormones yourself but you dont know why singular study argumentation is inconclusive at best. Naw i dont buy it.

I never said that i think that u must have graduated in feminist period literatur. I also never said this garbage is not (as in brain off read google and wiki) is taught in schools aswell. I did mention a systemic problem if u can remeber. But sure i mentioned unis by far the most, true.

[YAsQuen]

@Noether clearly ;DDDD detail alright. It reads like page 56 of a book

[YAsQuen]

@Noether why not just exlain why my points are bullshit instead of writing another wall of text about how stupid I am

[Noether]

@YAsQuen

I already addressed your points. You’re just ignoring my answers and steamrolling on.

[YAsQuen]

@Noether im telling you that u didn't

[Noether]

@YAsQuen

And I didn’t use just one or two studies.

[YAsQuen]

either condens one of your arguments or put in quotation after put you a claim i made in quotation to help my ape brain

[YAsQuen]

`i think elephants are pink` said the nazi
`lephants are not pink because we can clearly determine that they aren't by going to the zoo ourselves or looking up photos on the internet`

[Noether]

@YAsQuen

You asked what about hormone fluctuations, I gave a detailed breakdown which was all about hormonal fluctuations in men vs. women, you asked about ovulation, I addressed ovulation directly, discussed daily and seasonal fluctuation in testosterone and so on. You got responses to your specific points, and you did not counter my very specific responses.

[YAsQuen]

@Noether i asked if u believe female hormonal fluctuations are in any way equivalent to male fluctuatations.
I take it thats a yes then?
Have u never felt the highs and lows im talking about? right before and after ovulation and period. Never talked to a women who did? How do you explain these stories? All social conditioning or are they true but irrelevant?

You then went on and tried to compare estrodol to testosterone to somehow make the two equivalent cause u can clearly quantify how potent estrodol is in comparison to testosterone. We have no evidence whatsover that different people react differently to differing hormone doses right? (sarcasm) You can give two man the same amount of test and they will react differently cuz of various interplays with other hormones and or androgenreceptors. (there is proly way way more) What makes u think u can average these between the genders? Again u have to start with the assumption that men and women work the same to make this work.
in my opinion.
So do you not see a problem with these or are those irrelevant or something else entirely. dont google just answer me

[Noether]

@YAsQuen

Your elephant analogy is a terrible, non-specific counterargument, as lazy, uncompelling and juvenile as if I were to respond to all you’re answers with a middle finger emoji. “You’re wrong because duh” is just an a perfect example of the logical fallacy of appealing to intuition.

[Noether]

@YAsQuen
Equivalent? If you actually read what I wrote you would know I specifically said otherwise…, just not in the same way that you think.

[Noether]

@YAsQuen

And I specifically discussed nuance when comparing testosterone and estrogen when I contrasted both how much of each is present and how potent they are compared to one another. You can’t get into the differences between hormones in men and women without actually discussing the differences in hormones in men and women, and I discussed typical ranges for men and women. Of course there are differences from one individual to the next, that doesn’t mean there are no trends or ranges you can compare and it’s completely random, otherwise doctors would never be able to diagnose someone with a hormonal deficiency or excess to begin with, and these same biological trends are what allow us to compare averages between the sexes.

[YAsQuen]

@Noether what is that supposed to mean. You said its complicated and that men have certain estrogen and test levels and that women have certain test and estrogen levels. Irrelevant? If u dont think so tell me how. Thats information u would pass on if u thougt ur discussion partner didn't knew them. Fine lets say i didn't know men also produced estrogen or that women also produced certain amounts of estrogen. I dont understand the relevancy outside of clarification.

Talk about the period stuff. And my questions. Ur free to think they are garbage questions but ur still not talking about them.

[Noether]

@YAsQuen

The hormone levels are absolutely relevant to the question “what about hormones?” If you don’t actually know what their hormone levels are or how their hormones differ then you don’t actually have any idea what you’re talking about. “Period stuff” (pre period stuff really, PMS stands for “premenstrual syndrome” and occurs a week or two before a woman’s period is caused by the hormonal changes that I already discussed. The period itself is triggered by the decline in female hormones, while ovulation is triggered by their increase.

[YAsQuen]

@Noether Are u gonna go into how it makes most women feel? the normal period no pms needed.

The question was actually if u actually believe that the fluctuations we discussed are in any way relateable between men and women. Its a yes or no question whixh still goes unanswered. We decided to boil down emotionality to fluctuating hormones alone which is a simplification i granted you early on. And even then u have no arguments.

Now (and ealier) you say `The hormone levels are absolutely relevant to the question “what about hormones?” If you don’t actually know what their hormone levels are or how their hormones differ then you don’t actually have any idea what you’re talking about` Which means nothing

Its just a simple strawman followed by an argument of authority.

[Noether]

@YAsQuen

During a woman’s period she feels ill: She’s losing blood so if she doesn’t consume more iron she can suffer from iron deficiency, I and many women get nauseous and have lower back pain, and many women have severe cramps etc.

The first time I experienced it I had not been told about it and thought I had the flu as it was approaching. Sometimes it’s not so severe and there are some measures women can take to ease their symptoms to a degree (dietary changes etc). Typically the symptoms fade after the first 2-3 days and the last few days feel more normal as most of the uterus lining is out by then, it’s similar to vomiting if you’ve ever experienced food poisoning in that you feel better once it’s all out and they both make you nauseous and generally ill.

If you ask “what about the hormones?” but don’t care to listen to a breakdown of the hormones, yeah, wha are you talking about? Hormones are a point you brought up with your “what about” questions and I responded to that, a straw man is when you attack something other than what the other person brought up, which is the opposite of what I did there. And bringing up fluctuations and the differences between them is not an “appeal to authority”. The point is that you asked about hormones but then called a piece all about hormones irrelevant.

[YAsQuen]

@Noether again u responded to a differnt question. So I take it you never get euphoric right before and sad during?

You did respond to a straw man followed by an appeal to authority since u answered a simplified or dumbed down question while insisting that what you are saying is relevant but without giving evidence or and explanation as to why. Appealing to yourself as the authority figure.

[YAsQuen]

im gonna argue that u responded to a differnt question here since everyone knows what physically happens during period. And our entire conversation is still about emotionality? So therefore it would have been reasonable to assume that i was inquiring about the `sterotype`that women get emotional at different points during their cycle. Again which u were free to disagree with but u choose to ignore entirely.

[Anonymous]

No. Men and women both want love. But that right there is where the similarities end. They both operate from two completely different manuals.

[YAsQuen]

would u go so far as to say their (some of their) behaviour is opposite to another? Lets assume healthy or natural upbringing (very far removed from todays society)

[Opinion Owner]

Yes. Take partner selection. Both want partners but they go about obtaining them in two different ways mainly driven by demand. Men know at BEST 10% of women will be attracted to him. So 9 out of 10 women he meets and asks out will be an automatic no. This makes dating a numbers game for him. If you want corn you don't plant one or 2 stocks, NO. You plant a field because not all stocks are going to even grow. And the ones that do not all are going to produce corn. It's the same thing with men. To be successful he has to cultivate many women. It's not a matter of want to. It's a matter of necessity. So men date many women and try to pick the best one
Conversely, woman know about 50 to 60% of men will find her attractive and it could go higher the higher quality she is. So a woman can afford to reject men. So a woman's selection process is the opposite of a man she'll have a 100 guys ask her out and she'll choose what she determines is the best one of that 100 and date him. Because she knows if it doesn't work out she can always start over with a new guy.

[Chthou95]

Nope we're very different. One way we're different, is women are more agreeable in groups while men aren't. Womem easily let their opinions get influenced by other women, while mem don't. We critically think more than women do while women think with emotions. We're not the same

[DextroShade]

Gender roles are entirely natural in every animal species on this planet; it is incredibly stupid to think that humans are an exception just because of some bullshit ideology.

[Anonymous]

Only the most ignorant and deluded of the neo-Liberal thought police cling to this provably false "equality" because their ideology cannot allow them to acknowledge any difference between men and women.

[YAsQuen]

but none of it works or makes any sense if u accept that there are differences

[Opinion Owner]

No. Nothing makes sense if you assume there are no differences at all.

Men are not Women. Women are not Men.

[YAsQuen]

im just gonna poke a little. Not sure if ur saying that ur not a feminist or just one of the good ones.

What about the gender pay gap or differences when it comes to sexual crimes.

Genders a differnt _ we would therefore expect different results in all kinds of places right?

[Opinion Owner]

You're getting off the topic.

[YAsQuen]

its right on topic if u read the original post. Its the shortest dismantelment of modern feminism i can offer to the world

[Juan_Sheet]

Its been proven time and again that men and women are looking for different things, even if it ends up with the same result.

[Anonymous]

Buddy, it’s fine for studies to discover things that were missed by older studies. If they have something to counter the new studies, they should rebut it after those studies are presented with a study of their own that explains what the other study overlooked or other specific issues with the particular points made. Stop waffling and present actual counterpoints to those expressed in my studies specifically that prove your claims.

[YAsQuen]

To be fair u didn't list any studies you talked about some /one. And i have a general idea which ones ur talking about but again u didn't really go in depth. U basically read the abstract and left it at that. Not even checking for method of testing. I tried to tell you that its ridicolous to test something like emotional levels by lookin at brain waves. How do you quanitify emotion? Like think about it. This whole methodology only works if there was a way to QUANITIFY EMOTION. Now my question IS there a way to quanity emotion? Now my question might that study be bullshit?

Again this shit is biased like nothing ever was thats why i have to resort to logic alone to make u start questioning.

[Opinion Owner]

@YAsQuen

No, I didn’t just read the abstracts, stop pulling both your claims and your accusations out of thin air.

[Opinion Owner]

@YAs Quen

You can study emotional responses qualitatively– extreme stress and sadness have physical symptoms– they can even lead to long term health problems over time in some cases, how expressive someone is can also be measured both in terms of intensity and frequency.

[AnusNdaPainus]

Nope

men and women are completely different upstairs

[love_conquers_lust]

No. Genetics wires us differently. Women and men have historically needed each other for enhanced survival. Populations can’t survive without one or the other.

[Dargil]

Not exactly. Hormones play a part,

[YAsQuen]

pls ellaborate on that. So in theory if we stripped a men of pretty much all male hormones by castrating him and then gave him all the differnet female hormones in the correct doses he would become a women upstairs?

[DaySpring]

@YAsQuen Do you understand what mind means? Mind has 2 parts but is 1 really. The conscious mind and the subconscious mind. @Dargil is talking about the subconscious mind. Mind meaning activity. If you made everyone's subconscious activity the same... Then yes everyone would act the same. This is why culture and brain washing is so affective when in a vacuum.

There is no way we can tell if women and men roughly think (thinking is controlled by conditioning/subconscious activity) and act the same in the absence of nurture. You'd have to do a long study within a vacuum to know. I say roughly because one male might not have the exact subconscious activity of another. Some have a stronger sexual urge and some have a stronger survival urge. Women and men are going to have different hormones (subconscious activity) that cause different thinking and actions. But I do believe that social conditioning is controlling us mostly and that men and women would behave more in tune without it. Because inborn conditioning is very simple compared to the never ending new things in society and culture.

[Dargil]

Castration mild's down a male's temperament. Bulls into steers.
But xx and xy temperament is more than just male and female hormones. And med science is proving that chemical conversions lead to mental illness, like the Nashville shooter.

[Anonymous]

No. Mother nature is not nearly as retarded as the president.

[jshm2]

Evolution theory is largely bunkum. You also need to get out more, as female athletes can be stronger than some males, but it doesn't mean they are trans or anything close.

[YAsQuen]

Im not even mad about you dissing evolution.

When did i say that strong female athletes are trans? How is this relevant? Why do you feel the need to imply i never leave my home?

But sine u brought it up look at the williams sisters. Its quite obvious that even if u excluded trans from sports masculine women would still have the advantage.

In conclusion i never said that all men and women think the same to oneanother. U choose to read it that way.

[Anonymous]

I don't like pink or dolls. Im not very fond of new born babies. I'm not very obsessed with clothing.

[Anonymous]

Males tend to take risks and females tend to stay safe. Men set sail on the sea and find and conquer continents, women sit and stitch and accidentally end up pregnant.

[exitseven]

Men and women are wired differently.

[Anonymous]

No. .