Agree or disagree: abortion is neither a women’s rights issue nor a men’s rights issue, it’s a human rights issue?

[SolitarySolace]

Ramaswamy explained why men also deserve a voice in speaking against abortion - www.washingtonexaminer.com/.../

Agree

Disagree

[nightdrot]

At the most elemental level, it is a human rights issue.

As I have written elsewhere, the British statesman and political philosopher Edmund Burke wrote, "The effect of liberty to individuals is that they may do as they please. We ought see what it will please them to do before we risk congratulations." Therein lay the problem with laws that permit abortion on demand.

A society that premises its law as "Choice"- to use the locution of abortion rights advocates - effectively leaves open the question of the value of human life. It becomes not a standing principle, but a subjective judgment to each individual. In such a society, human life becomes not an end in itself, but mere instrument. Life becomes not an object whose preservation is the highest standard, but rather a convenience to be maintained or not according to the satisfaction of another's will.

We shape our laws and then our laws shape us - see also the civil rights laws of the 1960s which have effected a revolution in race relations. (The idea that a black man and a white man cannot sit together at the same lunch counter is as alien to this generation as Neptune. Yet in 1965 it was pretty much the norm.)

Inherent then in the pro-choice argument is the idea that life has no value save that which each person chooses to attach to it. It denies society any authority to make a collective judgment on such questions. Therefore, in this view, the law may not afford protection to life except at some arbitrarily defined (and inherently subjective) point.

This then conduces to an assertion of power over rights. Life is maintained not as its own end, but according to the will of the person who, effectively, controls it because they can. An ethic of convenience is established and it is a slippery slope on which to build a culture and a legal edifice.

Such a society will not value life that sees life as not an end, but as a means to some other end. Indeed, that is why at about the same time as the culture began to shift on the abortion question we also saw a rise in child abuse, spousal abuse, divorce, out of wedlock births and other social pathologies. These were not unrelated phenomena.

Aristotle said that the first questions of politics are, "How ought we to live? What kind of a people do we wish to be?" The implicit answer of those who support abortion on demand is, in effect, that it is nobody's business. Predictable results follow. One cannot expect the society to absent itself from collective moral judgments on the value of life and then expect an ethical social order to result.

Thus it must be, at an irreducible level, a human rights issue as it has profound implication for human society generally.

[genericname85]

yup. that's why i hate the "my bod my choice" argument. what about the babies body and it's choice?

also why is it ok for a woman to murder a mans child?

[DarkLegacy]

It should never be accepted. Well done USA taking away the right and well done Poland. Shame on most European countries and 1st world countries.

[genericname85]

@DarkLegacy yeah tho ameirca still has to improve on genital mutilation on baby boys.

[DarkLegacy]

That is the same elsewhere including here in the UK

[genericname85]

@DarkLegacy not to that extend. like the majority in usa are circumciesed. not so in uk afaik.

[DarkLegacy]

I just thought it was a Jew thing

[genericname85]

@DarkLegacy well it is... just in the USA they for some dumb reason all do it...

[wiltingrosepetal]

Phrase it however you please. In some situations it infringes on women's rights- forcing a person to carry a growing child inside their body that they don't want is very inhumane. And in some situations, it's an issue with men's rights. Forcing a person to financially support a child they didn't want, or taking away the child they actually wanted, is just as inhumane.

But saying the entire topic goes against human rights feels a little extreme. It's an easy word to describe a complex situation

[strateguy632]

opposite term human includes all, in contrast to "women right" isolated mother. but human is inclusive, need to include the "human fetus" victim.
this is not a religious issue, a law everyone must go to church weekly like act religious, but this is a personal law to deter criminal act to the victim, human fetus.

[Kaneki05]

@strateguy632 Imagine not thinking it's a religious issue when you can go to any anti-abortion rally and see clear picket signs saying Pray to end abortion and life is gods gift, abortion is a sin. Also you must be on something since this user never once mentioned any debate about it been a religious issue so your just arguing a point that wasn't even mentioned in the first place but is actually still true.

[strateguy632]

@Kaneki05 haha you make rule "no religious people can demonstrate about victims". religious people agree abortion is "not real health care."
as i already wrote this is not a law to "act religious so go to church. " they aren't protested that.

[Kaneki05]

@strateguy632 The point is it's only victims to religious people or I guess really dumb people who don't understand science. Hopefully for them they are more religious than that dumb.
Because no one who understands science would care about a fetus.

[DarkLegacy]

Abortion is just another way for women to bail out of her responsibilities. You can imagine if a man could get pregnant and wanted an abortion simply because he did not want abortion.

[DarkLegacy]

I meant did not want the baby

[Kaneki05]

@DarkLegacy I can imagine it and in that world it would never of been seen as wrong in the first place. Since society didn't even allow women to vote in the past and men were be all say all abortions to us would of 100% been our choice and no one would of called it wrong, apart from some women that we would named witches to shut up because that's how our society worked.

[Flower7]

Yes because the unborn child is affected much more than either the woman or the man.

[Djaay]

Did you know that supermarket from each man a woman's been with may stay in her system for decades !! And is neither all yours or all his at the birth of the child , DNA wise that is.

[Djaay]

Sperm* ... this typo is nuts

[strateguy632]

@Djaay to dj, certainly not, first the sperm dies a few days later despite body warmth, if not fertilization so it change to sugar water with inert protein. later, if you know how menstruation works, the inside gets replaced and pushed out to start fresh each month. sperm would leave drip out within a day or at most no more than a month.

[Djaay]

In her digestive system... dude.

[RainbowMarinade]

@Djaay
🤦🏻‍♀️

[loveslongnails]

Rama smarmy is a two-faced liar. Nothing he says can be trusted. That said:

The same men who want to control abortions are the ones who now openly admit "we don't have enough service workers". They're the same men who vote against funding pre and post-natal care, expanding Medicaid for the poor in their states, passing legislation to help single moms and/or poor families. They're the same men who will groom, indoctrinate, subjugate any child for their own purposes, invoking God's name while they do it. They are the same men who will create wars and think nothing of sending those "innocent children" to die in them. They're birthers, not protectors.

These are the men who pass laws that forbid abortions for ANY reason, EVEN IF the fetus is not viable and has NO chance to survive but carrying it will most certainly injure or kill the mother. They will tell you "we've allowed for exceptions", but every doctor in every state knows they'd be prosecuted for giving one unless the mother was inches away from death, and even THEN they'd have to defend the decision.

The vast majority of women who get pregnant WANT a healthy baby. Women do NOT use abortion as birth control, that's always been an Evangelical/Conservative lie directed mainly at poor black women.

Deciding on an abortion is a heart-wrenching, life altering decision - except when your doctor tells you the fetus will have no brain, kidneys, or lungs and will rot inside of you and you'll die if we don't abort it now. That should be a given, but not in a red state.

I can easily make an argument that avoids all science, is indeed "religion based", but won't appease all Christians either. I can say the fetus isn't "alive" until it gets a soul; it's just a developing shell and nothing more. I can say that ensoulment doesn't take place until week "whatever", because that's what my God told me! My God also told me women aren't supposed to die because a rotting fetus with no chance of survival is legislated to remain in their body. How does THAT sound for all you evangelicals?

My point is simple; it's not about saving lives or protecting the unborn, any more that going after drag queens or LGBTQ's has anything to do with stopping the sexual abuse of children. We all know where that comes from primarily, don't we pastors, family members, and red state legislators?

Reported sex crimes involving children in the USA 2023

[Soteris]

His arguments are stupid. First of all, what happened to privacy and the government getting into our lives? Paternity testing is literally the government taking your DNA and saving it in their database and considering this is aimed at testing children, this would happen to you at your birth when you have no say in the matter.

Secondly, "responsible intercourse" is something that the right wing has been banging on about since literally forever. They have always pushed the idea of abstinence and such nonsense which has been proven not to work since it contradicts human nature. Sexual education would help, as would access to affordable birth control such as condoms but those are things Republicans have opposed consistently.

Thirdly, this is a straw-man argument. The basis on which the argument for abortion is made is human rights, more specifically the right to the integrity of your own body. No one but yourself should have the right to perform or authorize medical interventions on your body unless you are unable to agree (such as unconscious) and its a medical emergency.

That means that the only ones who can have a say in abortions are women since it involves their bodies. If men got pregnant then they would have the say over their bodies too. In other words, it was never about womens rights, it was ALWAYS about human rights. Going beyond this is explicitly giving men a special right based on their gender which makes it a "mens rights" issue and not a "human right".

I am so sick and tired of Republicans refusing to understand the basics on this topic. I know they are intentionally being stupid so that they can continue making these brain-dead arguments but the fact that they are doing this maliciously does not make it any less irritating to have to repeat myself.

[strateguy632]

your argument of pivacy cam be tested... after birth, do i have privacy to murder my son after birth? the government gets involved. no protected privacy when the re is a victim... guess what abortion has a victim.

[Soteris]

@strateguy632 What the hell are you even talking about?

[Kaneki05]

Just this 100%. Don't need to make an opinion because you said it all.

[strateguy632]

if we stop ignoring biology, (liberals call people fascist, if they are ignoring the science, from the scientists who the liberal prefers), unfortunately for pro-choice, god made the development of the BRAIN the FIRST system, in picture.

this is no longer "controlled by mother brain" the "fetus own human brain" is active a separate human life. we must protect this human life from the cruel people who want to kill it and support abortion after 8 eight weeks.

[Kaneki05]

@strateguy632 you "this is not a religious issue" also you "god made the development of the brain the first system" what a way to argue against your own point.
Also having it's own brain activity don't mean much so even cells think. But no one is going to cry over some dead cells.

[MsBell2018]

While I agree a woman has a right to her body, I feel once she becomes pregnant, whomever the father is has just as much say so about the baby as she does because it's half his child
The woman is the carrier & grower. I feel anything done to or with the child should be discussed between both parents & agreeable decision made.

[Notherndude84]

The Supreme Court overturned Roe v Wade removing access to abortion for huge numbers of American women. In America women today have fewer rights than their mothers. Women in my view should always have control over their bodies. They should be able to date, marry, have sex (with whom they choose) receive birth control, obtain an abortion without interference from white republican men.

[purplepoppy]

Abortion has went from being a personal issue to a political one. Those who bang on about it the most are only doing so because they want to show what a good little right winger they are, I doubt any really gives a shit about the embryo.

[Notherndude84]

Women are the first people to have their rights trampled on when a country moves towards a dictatorship. Once women are stripped of bodily autonomy sexual anxiety cultivated through propaganda campaigns.

[Danzigdawson]

Sperm and eggs have no soul. But when they fuse, they magically are granted one by god's hand, who's apparently watching you screw attentively enough to know when to intervene so you can't commit "murder".

[DaisyM23]

technically it is a human rights issue because abortion should be a human right but you can't exactly call it a men's issue if it's not their bodies that would be going through pregnancy or an abortion

[SolitarySolace]

But it would also be his child. You assume he wouldn’t care about his own child?

[DaisyM23]

but that's assuming the dad is in the picture - if he is, then sure he does have a say and he can care all he wants, but he can't FORCE someone to have his baby. It ultimately comes down to the woman's decision. If a man wants his own baby so much he can have one much easier than forcing someone to carry one.

[Agape93]

No. It only affects women's bodies, and restrictions on it only affect women. Guys do have a voice and a say, but they don't get the final say in what another person does with their own bodies and their own medical choices.

[Danzigdawson]

The only people who have a problem with abortion within the first few weeks after conception are the christofascist nutjobs who seriously need to be humbled and put back in their fucking place.

[robhazelnut]

If the concept of rights is intended to protect the most vulnerable and helpless people, then they could only work when applied to all people, most significantly to unborn infants.

[cth2188]

Abortion is a woman's right - men don't have to carry a child for 9-10 months women do. Men shouldn't have a say so in the right of what women do with their bodies unless that woman grants him permission to do so if he fathered the children through consensual sex. As for rape, absentee father, etc men don't have a right to be included.

[SolitarySolace]

So you’re saying when it comes to abortion, it’s the only issue where misandry is ok?

[cth2188]

You may want to reread my response - I didn't see a misandrist response- men shouldn't be included in women's reproductive or women's rights.

[SolitarySolace]

What about men’s reproductive rights? Shouldn’t men have reproductive rights if they’re also needed in order for women to even have children?

[cth2188]

Men don't decide how many children women have or when - that woman decides that. Same for abortion men don't have a say in women's rights or reproductive rights. If a woman chooses to abort that's her choice not a man's.

[cth2188]

I just said that in the original comment and in previous comments above this one!

[SolitarySolace]

What if I said it’s neither a women’s rights issue nor a men’s rights issue but a human rights issue?

[cth2188]

A woman grants men permission- men can't respect that because they don't see women as human beings just objects!

[cth2188]

It is a woman's rights - it's not a human rights matter- women and men aren't not the same scientifically or biologically nor have the same bodily anatomy wise.

[cth2188]

A man can't conceive a child only a woman can

[cth2188]

I'm for woman's reproductive and woman's rights ! Men have more benefits in this country!

[DarkLegacy]

Feminazi alert. men avoid this at all costs.

[cth2188]

@DarkLegacy I don't date men nor have sex with them

[systemsareyo]

It'd certainly an issue and certainly affecting humans. I voted Agree 😉☺️

[Drewtate]

More an issue of self responsibility. 99% of abortions are avoidable

[DarkLegacy]

Exactly, i have come across women who use abortion as a form of contraception and one who has had over 10 abortions.

[Djaay]

Abortion is a direct aggression and denial towards the GOD of the Bible , not men who are his image. women are furious at GOD for not being the chosen leader rather the helper and not of GODS image but from man's image.

[wiltingrosepetal]

I genuinely don't understand a word of that. How's a foetus living in a woman's body in anyway related to denying the bible 😭 or the bible at all, for that matter?

[Djaay]

Maybe u might be surprised if you read any part of the Bible.

[Djaay]

U can start with Jeremiah 1:28

[wiltingrosepetal]

I'm a devoted Christian. Got the cross necklace, three bibles in my room, the whole enchilada. You didn't phrase your words in an easily digestible way and I didn't understand them

[Djaay]

I generally don't expose my anointing with just anyone at first impressions.

[wiltingrosepetal]

... So you don't want to explain your point? Aight 💀

[Djaay]

My point is my opinion above.

[strateguy632]

i am glad you brought this up, about "helper" so i can elaborate. anti-christian use the method name calling, you can't say misogynist [racist phobia"] etc. or you are misogynist, a method for silenced people instead of bothering to try to refute. this is just a distraction for not finding any error.
the term helper, i will mention source in book genesis, wife women is helper, not leader... so they say bible is misogynist but that doesn't mean it is wrong or error... they fail to show the error, just lazy name calling and worse it is claiming to "accuse the PURPOSE of the principle" as an insult to lady, but the PURPOSE differs not to hurt women but for necessity and practical pragmatic as i will elaborate.
imagine equality, man said kid should go to school __ variable x, but ma equal to veto, like president veto, so not x, but must go to school so ma wanted school y, but husband not less, but equal can veto too, then no school because no agreement... so practical someone must have authority to decide, i don't care man or woman but must choose one leader and other helper.
for some mysterious god wisdom that is not misogynist, to insult women just mystery godly ultimate wisdom, the best option was man leader and lady helper.
after clarification of this i need to find a lady who accepts that role as defined by the bible she committed to it, from women who claimed to follow... i doubt any women even christian believes those parts. oh well.

[Djaay]

We're not called to judge a personal personality , but we're called to judge they're immorality so that the Holy spirit may convict and convert. Today's modern women barks about Equality ( same authority as a man so she doesn't have listen to a man ) . GODS SPIRIT calla for man and woman to become as ONE (1) not two equal parts joined together. That's why there's not any females in Heaven. Only her as one spirit along with her husband's.

[Dargil]

Entirely agree. A pre-born child has its own unique DNA and Human Rights. This is not a religious issue. Its more fundamental.

[RainbowMarinade]

If it’s a job for a uterus, the uterus that has to do the work should get the say. 🤷‍♀️

[strateguy632]

it has a say in 3 ways, a. menstruation pushed stuff out, b, usualy the uterus decides to GROW the fetus unless human preference interferes. so the uterus shows it is pro life, that is its "say". third only expelling old stuff like menstruation but expelling a living human differs, the fetus is a human victim so that needs protection from cold hearted mothers.

[RainbowMarinade]

@strateguy632
Please tell me you understand the use of a metaphor, and don’t actually believe uterus’s have their own voice. 🤦🏻‍♀️ However, there is a voice that speaks FOR the uterus, so that’s the voice we should abide by.
And your “pro-life” uteruses tend to expel more fertilized eggs than they incubate. Might want to revisit that claim.

[strateguy632]

in the instance that uterus did NOT expel, uterus decided. but mother can't decide to kill human fetus it is a separate human life.

[RainbowMarinade]

@strateguy632
In reality, the uterus decides nothing. It doesn’t have reasoning capabilities.
That belongs to the female whose body the uterus resides in. And yes, a woman should get to decide if she wants to sacrifice her body for somebody else.
Preferably, people should be taking proper precautions to prevent pregnancy, which is why I support comprehensive sex education.
But in the end, the one who makes the bodily sacrifice should get the choice.

[Kudos4U]

It is disturbing but predictable how quickly people abandon the "democracy" they preach and think their voice (only) should matter when it affects their own desires.

[Likes2drive]

I think it’s a big mess what they’ve done with the abortion issue when it’s medically necessary at times, now, so many women have to go out of state if it’s an emergency

[AviatorTom]

You can put whatever label you want on it, abortion is an issue that humanity must deal with.

[BarryLiverstone]

As long as he is consistent in his policies; saying the federal government needs to be limited which includes not being able to restrict health care on human beings.