If gender roles are natural, why do so many men and women struggle to fulfill them?

[MzAsh]

[hahahmm]

Great question. I would say because in modern western society people have too much individualism and freedom to do whatever they wish which our ancient ancestors didn't have. It means that you're less likely to have a good role model. It's more likely that one or both of your parents suck at doing a lot of the things our ancestors did. Without a good role model you have to learn everything the hard way which is difficult or impossible to do unless you get lucky and just happen to fall into the right situations.

In the old days the entire culture promoted certain ideas so almost every random story and movie provided good role models. Stuff that wasn't a good role model was hidden from the public. People could do it but it wasn't promoted to the masses as normal.

As more and more people promote stuff that runs counter to building and maintaining traditional ideas it snowballs and gets worse at an accelerated rate.

I would not bet money on the US (for example) being a functioning country, as we know it, in even 8 years. Regardless of who is running the country. It's like trying to keep the Titanic from sinking when it's already hit the iceberg 45 minutes ago. The seeds of how things are were planted long ago and are deep in the minds of many.

[MisterWack]

Hard hitting question, here is my hard hitting answer: Humans are complicated beings that cannot be so easily fit into a box, that is why. Until men & women get this through their head, we’ll be sucked into the box they want us to be confined in.

Human beings have willpower, independent thought, gumption, self determination, goals, hopes, dreams, and complicated minds. What I’m saying is, to fit everyone into a box for your own narrow close minded view of what a human should be. They should begin to ask themselves a good question, “Who am I?”. Because when you ask, “Who am I?”…. You start to realize you don’t fit into the structure you believe humans fit into. Think about that.

People who push tradition over everyone’s head, rules they’ll never follow, standards that are too high for them to reach, and people who are uncomfortable when labels are placed on them…. They should take a good look in the mirror and they’ll find the answer. They’ll all find the answer. Thank you for asking this deep question, really took a lot of thought to think of an answer all can understand.

[lilBigPotato]

Because most of them are just some social norms enforced over decades and not necessarily natural

[Gwendoline]

I'm not sure i understand. In what way to people struggle to fulfil them?

[razelove]

I'd say because resources are thin and messaging that men need to be more emotional, along with the opposite that women need to be more independent and tough.

There are many more reasons, but I'd say that would be the biggest influence. When you have both people working you can't fulfill those traditional roles. When the guy doesn't want to put in 60 hours a week, the woman wants to go to work and doesn't want to "just be a housewife".

It is exceedingly rare that I run into couples who are in those traditional roles, the only ones that come to mind are evangelical couples, or wives from overseas.

[MzAsh]

I’d say big part of it is that men and women genuinely just don’t want to fulfill those trad roles all the times.

[CristinaWilliams]

Yeah that’s true

[OlderAndWiser]

I don't think people struggle to fill such roles. . . no, they simply reject such roles.

[worldscolide]

I'd say what I really think, but you'd just call me sexist so I will state the below.

You being a teacher/professor simply cannot deny that men and women are inherently different. Even from infancy women have less bone density, less muscle density and so on making men and women better suited for different things, yes a woman can do anything a man can do, but it doesn't mean they should. For example, if the job has lesser requirements for women than men, the US military, police department, fire department, and so on, women should either be required to meet the exact same standards as men or should be denied the job.

And let's not forget the fact that women tend to gravitate, even in a fully equal society, to softer jobs leaving men to handle the harder jobs.

This idiotic premise that feminism teaches, that men and women are the exact same, needs to die, because it's not just morally ane ethically wrong, it's scientifically wrong. Not only that, it's sexist to remove men and women's uniqueness in favor of some mutant ideology of equity.

And I don't really care what your opinion is on this. I don't care what your ideological view is, I don't care if you disagree, and I don't care if you respond, because I won't. It's women like you that foster hate and division between the sexes, it's women like you that are so goddamn blinded by your ideology that you're unable to see the uniqueness between men and women and the fact that men and women need each other.

Respond or don't, I do not care, because I won't.

[MzAsh]

Yes, men and women have biological differences, nobody’s denying that. But who said that these differences dictate what someone should or shouldn’t do professionally or otherwise?

Your argument about physical standards in jobs like the military or fire service ignores that these standards are for ensuring job performance, not gatekeeping based on gender. If a woman, or any person for that matter, can meet these standards, their gender is irrelevant.

You claim “women like me” are promoting hate and division, but all I’m advocating for is the right of anyone to choose their paths free from archaic stereotypes.

Let’s not confuse “equal opportunity” with “identical beings.” No one is saying everyone is the same, but everyone deserves the same shot at choosing their life’s course without being shoehorned by outdated norms.

And to circle back to the original question you sidestepped. If gender roles are so natural, why do so many people struggle to fit into them? The fact that so many find these roles restrictive or unattainable suggests that maybe these roles aren’t as “natural” as some like to claim. It’s worth considering that these struggles arise because society’s traditional molds don’t reflect the complexity and diversity of human capabilities and desires.

Whether you choose to engage with this idea or dismiss it out of hand is your choice, but the dialogue will evolve with or without your participation.

[worldscolide]

Lady you're the kind of woman who would look down on my wife choosing to be a stay at home wife and mother. I left 100% of her future decisions to her, because i absolutely did not want to control that. My wife has faced insults and even death threats from her so called feminist friends because of that choice. Its what she wanted. You say that you promote a woman's right to choose yet i have seen comments where you insult women who choose to be mothers and raise children. You are just like the rest of feminists who see motherhood as some kind of slavery or prison.

As to your question. I fit really well into mine. I protect and provide for my family, and my wife runs my home with an iron fist.

[MzAsh]

I have never, and would never, look down on any woman for choosing to be a stay at home wife and mother if that’s what truly fulfills her. Your wife, like every one, deserves to pursue her happiness without facing judgment, insults, or threats, which are absolutely reprehensible regardless of their source.

However, you’ve mischaracterized my position and my comments. Advocating for women to critically evaluate their life choices and to be aware of the sacrifices and risks involved in any path isn’t a dismissal of those who choose traditional roles. What I’m about here is seeing to it that every woman makes informed decisions that align with her own values and desires, not just what society expects of her.

You say you fit well into your gender role, and that’s great for you. But that wasn’t my question. Why do so many people find these roles constrictive or unattainable?

[Cormac995]

Humanity has Zookcossis and we're no longer functioning properly on a biological level. Mental illness and depression have never been higher than they are now and humans are slowly breaking our brains with constant stimulation from social media blasting us with dopomine to the point of addiction.

Also, you can take my word for it or not I don't remember the exact source I got this from just that it was one I trust so if you don't believe me that's fair, but studies have literally shown that people would rather have physical pain inflicted on them than give up social media.

They took people who spent a large amount of time on SM and hooked them up to a device that would hurt them whenever they used their phone for texting or social media etc. The studies ended up concluding that most of them couldn't stop and kept on using the phone even though they got hurt for doing it over and over. The pain was not enough to resist the urge to swipe.

If I recall they said from what they could tell it's more addictive than heroin and causes dopamine withdrawals when you stop using it for too long if you're a habitual user.

[Miristheiss]

Culture and propaganda.

Moreso on the women's side.

Since the 70's the culture has pushed that they are oppressed. Biology was kind of dictating that women stayed home more than pursuing careers because sex brought about babies. It is the pill that changed that, not "feminism". Society tells all women going to college is a must even if they are getting some mid degree like communications and whatever. It isn't just doctors and nurses and engineers and scientists going to college, culture preaches EVERYONE must go to college.

Culture preaches career is the most important thing. All women must make working 40 or more hour jobs their priority.

It preaches, don't have kids or if you do wait until you are 30 and have your career set, sleep around until then and then find some husband around 30.

Culture preaches women should be like men and that they don't need men. Be "independent", don't need no man.

Men are getting more feminine and less manly.

[MzAsh]

College isn’t the golden ticket it once was, and I think many are realizing it doesn’t guarantee a well paying or fulfilling career. However, I firmly believe that women should focus on gaining education, skills, and life experience before settling down. They need to secure independence and financial stability. Depending too much on a partner is risky. The world has changed, and it’s wise for everyone, but especially women, to prepare themselves to navigate it on their own terms.

[DudeDiligence]

"Natural" is relative. Before the industrial revolution, the term "gender roles" wasn't even in most people's vocabulary. There was no question about what roles men filled and what roles women filled, because neither had any choice in the matter if they had any hope of success in life. It has only been in the last few decades that there has been any debate about gender roles, and it has only been made possible by modern infrastructure and technology, and modern Western society and its legal systems. If some catastrophic event were to occur that made modern technology unavailable, and people were forced to live in conditions more like those that existed during the 19th century, the subject of gender roles would once again fade from our collective consciousness as men and women returned to doing the things that played to their strengths, and men and women would once again value and depend on each other for those things.

You asked why so many men and women struggle to fulfill gender roles today. The answer is... they don't. Most don't even try, because neither is expected to now. And even for those who want to, it's economically impossible for all but a very few. But for those with the economic means, traditional gender roles are the norm. For 70% of the most wealthy families, the man is the breadwinner and the woman stays home and cares for the children and household.

With all of that said, it's not gender roles people are struggling with today, but rather the lack of gender roles, and the fact that both sexes are forced into roles that don't play to their strengths, and don't make them happy. They have no choice. If they had more choices, many or most would not be in the roles they are in today.

[MzAsh]

You say people are unhappy because they’re forced into roles that don’t suit their strengths, but what about those of us who thrive outside traditional norms? If I’d rather pursue a career and travel instead of sticking to the kitchen and the nursery, why should outdated gender roles dictate my choices?

[DudeDiligence]

I didn't mean to suggest everyone fits the generalizations I made. There are certainly exceptions like yourself, and there's nothing wrong with that. Each person needs to do what's best for them.

But I stand by what I said as a general rule. It's not gender traditional gender roles that people are struggling to fulfill today. It's the non-traditional roles that the realities of modern society force people into that are what people are struggling with.

[AnonAndrew]

Well, we struggle with all sorts of natural things. It's natural to move around and get vigorous exercise, but few people do that enough.

It's natural to eat healthy, natural foods in moderation, but we tend to eat unhealthy foods to excess.

We can probably think of a dozen more examples pretty quickly if we were to keep going.

The fact that something is natural doesn't mean it's not a struggle to achieve.

This shouldn't be read as me saying gender roles are natural, nor should it be read as me saying they're not natural. I'm only saying that the fact that many struggle with them doesn't tell us anything about whether they're natural or not.

[Lionman95]

For similar reasons why some people have it harder to hold to a natural and healthy diet if they have the option between brocoli and a cheeseburger. Most people know what would be the healthier option and fewer people actually take it for several reasons. People struggle to fulfill a role because they either don´t want to or they don´t think they can. People are not robots what to do and what to like isn´t determined by genes but by many other influences like environment.

I haven´t fully made a decision whether or not gender roles are natural. Depending on day and environment my answer is different because to me it seems impossible to prove such a thesis.

[ProbablyClueless]

Probably because people tend to place too great of pressure on themselves to be a specific archetype, instead of focusing on what those archetypes represent in the greater context of society. A role makes it sound like you're trying to fill an a specific part. The truth is that you already fill your role. The question is what you're going fill it with

Not being a Clint Eastwood character doesn't make you less of a man. What makes you less of a man is not fighting for the things Clint's characters fought for.

[Staximus]

Let's say you take away the influence, expectations, and knowledge of modern society and we were turned back into cave people who fight over animal carcasses and women like savages again. The stronger men and women are going to bully and take advantage of the weaker ones. Men evolved to be stronger to fight over women and animal carcasses. Maybe we are devolving as societal expectations change. Honestly we should have never made it past living in caves and huts. Farming, the plow, and especially the industrial revolution we the beginning of the end. The only way for our idiotic species to survive is to reduce the surplus population and return to the stone age and the hunter-gatherer lifestyle. We're putting too much mayonnaise on the sandwich of life. We're doomed. I hate mayonnaise anyways, fuck that shit.

[j_ortan]

That's not how anthropologists typically think hunter gatherer societies worked. They were more likely quite communal and egalitarian, with less strict gender roles than societies during and after the agricultural revolution.

My xper level is too low to share links but if you Google 'hunter gatherer gender roles' or similar you'll find a lot of articles

[Staximus]

@j_ortan before people became intelligent and civilized enough to learn to work together, cave people were a bunch of bullies

[RiseofArtemis]

Because they have no idea about them anymore. You need to be taught them by someone to be 100% capable on it.

A fatherless guy isn't going to magicaly be a good man and neither will a fatherless girl be a good woman if she's never taught the right stuff. Most people are just sheep and follow what others do.

[MzAsh]

Fathers often aren’t teaching the right things even when they are there.

[Zack-Bann]

Prefrontal cortex made it so that we don’t follow animalistic instincts blindly. We are the only species capable of defying our “nature” in that way


So while it is true that some men and women struggle to fit their natural roles it doesn’t mean that the concept is flawed.


Nature isn’t something we designed its something we can only discover

[rebelsunshine]

I don't believe they are natural. Some women make better warriors than most men. And some men are better at caretaking and nurturing than at fighting.

There is enormous pressure to conform to gender roles or face tremendous social stigma. For men, this is called "toxic masculinity."

[Kaneki05]

Because we don't live normally? Differences to how females and males animals are different in their roles is highly documented, so naturally that exists. Humans aren't unique to not have this however have pushed ourselves to not live naturally, which ironically seems to be human nature for better or worse.

[ilistengood]

My question is why do so many people worry about something that's not there concern I've been across dresser since very young my friends know, some chose to no longer be friends , I don't hit on them , they don't humiliate me. ( no I don't dress all the time. Get over it.

[Makeushiver]

I'm not sure what you mean by "natural". I would think that they have a large degree of sociological stereotyping in them. That doesn't make them wrong but it does mean that there is something of a standard that each gender needs to both live up to and in a smaller sense, are restricted by.

[Joshydavid25]

Because they're being discouraged.. If a man wants to do something masculine, it's a mixed bag, but many times things that men naturally do and over analyzed into being called misogynistic.. And if a woman wants to be more feminine and do more "traditional" things, she's called a "pick me"..

[shortster]

Public school propaganda. Why do you think reading and math scores are declining and teachers constantly complain about how tough their jobs are? It is because they aren't teaching math and reading; they are busy teaching something else. Government indoctrination takes time to teach.

[MzAsh]

How do you account for the variations in attitudes towards gender roles in different educational systems across the world, many of which have diverse curricular focuses yet face similar debates on gender roles?

[shortster]

Gender roles are not important for schools to be teaching. They need to focus on math, science, language, and civics.

[MzAsh]

In what ways are schools focusing on gender roles right now that you feel they shouldn’t be?

[shortster]

In any way

[MzAsh]

Exactly how though?

[shortster]

By focusing on what is important. It is pretty easy to not teach something.

[Snakeyes7]

It hasn't been a struggle until now when we are being told from everywhere that they're oppressive.

Now it's a struggle because either nobody wants to do it because of this impression they have been given or the economy is so bad that the roles couldn't be filled properly anyway.

[CheeseMonster]

Because they're not natural, and now that they aren't forced as much it's becoming more obvious again.

[Agape93]

Because they're social norms, constantly enforced. They're not natural.

[blueonblack22]

It’s because there is so much mixed messaging today. So much confusion thanks to modern feminism.

[MzAsh]

How do you differentiate the impact of modern feminism from the effects of other cultural, technological, and economic changes that also contribute to evolving perceptions of gender roles? Isn’t it possible that the confusion you’re describing reflects a more general societal shift rather than the influence of one movement?

[blueonblack22]

@MzAsh I have no doubt that technology, dating apps, social media, porn, etc. have very detrimentally impacted male and female relationships. They all heavily contributed to all of this.

And I also have no problem whatsoever with female empowerment. I am fine with women fulfilling traditionally male dominated positions ONLY if they can execute these roles to the same capacity as a man can.

But getting back to modern feminism. What has happened in the last 10 years is absolutely beyond insane. From #metoo, to DEI for the LA firefighters to electing VPs in 2020 with the sole qualification of having a “black female candidate” is just beyond ridiculous.

Fortunately this is all starting to reverse trend. Slowly but surely it’s happening. But the real reason why is not because men are unhappy. No. It’s because many WOMEN are finding themselves unhappy with what modern feminism has created. You can’t disenfranchise men without ultimately disenfranchising women.

Most women still prefer to be approached by men. Most women want a firefighter who is strong enough to carry them out of a burning house. Not an obese lesbian firefighter who got hired via DEI and claiming “well they shouldn’t have been there” if she was called to rescue a man from a burning building. Most women still want to be taken care of by a strong man. Most women (at least at some point in their lives) would like to have children.

Modern feminism has warped and confused so many things for both genders. But now more women are finally waking up to that fact.

[MzAsh]

And I’m not here to champion every aspect of modern feminism without critique. some of it, particularly the performative bits, has gone off the rails.

When it comes to job roles, the standards should be competency and suitability for the role, irrespective of gender. Women absolutely should be in any position as long as they meet the job’s demands, which I think we agree on.

In personal relationships, strength isn’t just about physical capacity but also emotional presence and loyalty. Women need men who are not only capable of being protectors but also emotionally supportive, trustworthy, and respectful of their aspirations and hobbies. Men who understand we decide our own place in life, not anyone else.

Mothers, and women who choose not to be mothers, both deserve way more respect than they’re getting. Right now, the narrative around motherhood f’ed seven ways to Sunday. It’s often treated as a woman’s sole purpose.

Plenty of women don’t want kids and are happier without them. And that’s perfectly okay. Guys like JD Vance can throw a hissy if they want over this, but those are the facts. On the flip side, women who do want kids should expect and demand real support. That means actual teamwork from their partners… more dads stepping up in parenting duties, domestic chores, and providing real breaks for moms. We also need better access to birth control, firm respect for women’s reproductive choices, proper parental leave for both parents, and solid backing from society and policies. This is the only way to get our culture back to a family first dynamic.

[Steve-the-lion]

Because most people are weak minded and allow themselves to be brainwashed by society. For example, the reason men are generally stronger than women is so that men are the ones who go out and work to provide. Feminism came along and tried to flip it upside down to confuse gender roles and persuade women to be more like men.

[CupcakeTheDestroyer]

Because a nuclear family dynamic forces the parents to rely solely on each other for all social, intimate, and sexual needs which is a massively unfair burden.

[madgoat]

Social expectation approximates gender roles for men and women as groups, not the individual. So any particular one person may fit such expectations exactly or not nearly at all.

[glennos89]

Because our society is so messed up that we allow our children to be brainwashed with idiotic ideologies and lies.

Humanity is being herded like animals

[ilistengood]

People are sheep, and while I've haven't a doubt that a small handful of transgendered probably have ,"lied" to their kids, parents, friends, etc. Mostly , I'm guessing, to cover their lifestyle, from an world that just can't wait to pass gossip on. I've been a CD since a very early age, I was also bi from an early age. And I'll even admit I have one lesbian daughter, blame it on me, don't blame it on me , I didn't expose her to my lifestyle, but neither did I pretend such things aren't real. Like any other parent, if she asked questions I did my best to answer as honestly as possible. She didn't find out about me until she was in her 20's

[oldpigg]

Gender roles are natural but no one is forced to comply with them anymore. I am a man but I am not a chivalrous person and I do not want to support women or give them my money.

[slatyb]

They aren't natural. They are largely cultural and the training starts as soon as they are out of the crib.

[JessyJoy]

I don't think this is about genders. The world is going to shit and we all suffer from it: cancers, sickness, inflation, etc.

[Bklynbadboy12]

Cause not all women know there role just like you have some men that don't know there role. Things that are crystal clear to us cause we had role models that showed us isn't so clear for a person that's never had a role model to show them

[MzAsh]

We know the roles. They just don’t work for us.

[Bklynbadboy12]

Please explain that cause now you got me curious 😉

[HungTexan]

I’m not sure, as I’ve never struggled, but I know some people do. It’s a dilemma I’m not qualified to opine on.

[SleepingHazard]

Gender roles might be natural, but our society isn't.

[NathanDavis]

because it's also natural to be inadequate... you would not have natural evolution without it

[Bricealan]

I am not aware that many men and women straggle to fulfill their gender role

[Dargil]

What are natural roles for men and women. How do they "struggle"?

[DrPepper12]

Tasks can be biologically classified, not roles. Gender roles are an artificial societal construction

[Dongie]

That came about naturally due to each gender having both strong and weak points.
Finished it for you, teacher.

[Ms_Facesitter]

Being brainwashed by the masses, I feel. Failing to think for ourselves.

[andreasderjuengere]

Because own pleasure dominates own obligations :)

[loveslongnails]

Who says they're natural? They are only "natural" to a point; the rest is learned behavior.

[jahaims]

Societal and cultural influence as well as all of the hormone disruptors in our environment.

[Tomisworthless]

some men and women are inferior to the chads and beckys

[ABC1x1x]

They don't unless you were raised in the age where gender roles were Alien and discouraged

[princeofromance]

That all depends on their view of gender roles.

[chrissykerdock]

not every person feels they should comply

[Jaysun33]

I think it is because of inflation. That is the root cause of everything.

[Deserter2]

Cause they don't, gender roles are consistent in every culture, only a few outliers amongst peoplw

[eagle1951]

everyone always are trying to out do the other

[WhitneySnow]

That’s a really good question

[JonCobretti]

I have never seen a struggling dishwasher?

[Dongie]

Because of the devil.

[BarryLiverstone]

Because society sends conflicting signals

[kaucky1]

They incomplete

[HusamRocks]

Welcome to life 😁

[ChicoFromThe305]

Lots of obstacles

[Grond21]

What do you mean?

[GlowUpGirly5]

What? 🤣