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I agree that if you plan to stay with a cheater don't try to find any information. However, in my case, I needed it in my state in order to file for a divorce and come out of the relationship. You can't just say I think she is courting want proof or you end up spending a lot of time and money to fight it out! Finding out was hard, but I was relieved that I wasn't crazy and it's making my divorce go a lot smoother. She would never confess; therefore, I did the best thing for me... find out, no doubt, move on. I was then introduced to some professional hackers...[hackdemon4@gmail. com]
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u 1. I think that if you begin by describing our roles as "jobs," it distorts the entire discussion. Dating and courtship are purely voluntary matters.
2. Each of us has the right to determine for ourselves what our roles in dating and courtship will be. If our putative partner does not accept the role we define for ourselves, they are free to move on to the next
"contestant."
3. Relationships are frequently not symmetrical, balanced, or equal. There is no reason why they should be. The valid questions to ask in a relationship are a) am I getting what I need from this relationship? and b) am I paying am excessive price for what I am receiving? If you are not getting what you need, or the price is too heavy, you are free to move on to the next relationship.
I have to approach the girl, I have to ask her out, I have to plan the date. I have to... That's my "job" even if the term job isn't perfectly right.
Yes, I could decide not to, but I can't decide to go to the next contestant, because there is none, if I don't do these things. If I didn't do these things I wouldn't have a single date yet. I can only decide to do the part that is expected, or staying alone forever. So, yes, if I want to date, I as a man have a "job" to do.
@Sucram
I agree with what @OlderAndWiser has said but you also certainly have a point. I do think you are creating a false dichotomy tho, or perhaps being drawn into one that the asker has created. The traditional rituals of courtship (ie going on dates as such) is not the only way to acquire a relationship partner and it's not even a particularly effective way of obtaining casual sex if that's one of the aims.
People meet and start relationships wherever and whenever, e. g. they meet at a common hobby and start a relationship somewhat later, without dating. You are right so far.
In my case however, and in the case of many other, this might not happen, after all, it's a game of chance, if you don't actively look for a relationship.
After 25 years of absolutely nothing I got tired of waiting and initiated dating. It just didn't happen in another way. (with a single exception two years later, which didn't work out)
Personally I'm a very very reserved person and that reduces my chances of randomly meeting someone special significantly. I just don't approach people as much as others do, don't meet as many as others. But I'm sure there are many more who don't find anyone elsewhere, who have to date.
@Sucram, I do understand the problem. Virtually all my relationships and sexual encounters have been facilitated only by my willingness to achieve life-threatening states of intoxication. Moreover, all the relationships that these extreme measures yielded have turned out to be disastrous and the sexual encounters unremarkable. The only meaningful relationships (including friendships) I've had have only occurred in the last 5 years and all have been with people encountered online and who live in different countries to myself.
Well, to each our own, but I'm against the idea of letting someone else open their wallet for me when I am perfectly capable of doing so myself. If I do not have a wallet to open, then I do not have a date to attend. So, you can scratch that off your list of "job" duties.
Anyway. If I've agreed to go on a date with someone, then my "job" consists of:
- Arriving at the specified time and location.
- Being dressed according to the setting, with a slight emphasis on looking more presentable than I do in my day-to-day life.
- Being courteous and engaging in conversation with my date, with the intent of getting to know my date better and letting him know me better. Basically, facilitating a verbal exchange of personal information with the goal of finding commonalities.
- That having gone on for reasonable amount of time, my duty is then to cover my own expenses, bid my date farewell, and leave.
That's still how it's done, right?
đđđđđ
Well said
@Pegases
Your two statements appear to be logically inconsistent. Are you confusing the concept of non-correlation with non-existence? I mean, it would be correct to say that there was no corellation between being on gag and having a particular opinion if a person on gag was no more likely to hold that opinion than someone not on gag.
I think the woman's job is to make herself attractive enough that the guy will choose her instead of some other girl and stay interested in her long enough for her to have a long term relationship. Being attractive is hard - the competition is fierce.
The guy does the same thing though, so it's not specifically the woman's job. The question is about what you do that guys do not.
No one has jobs in dating. That's an old-fashioned view.
I agree! đ
This basically.
I agree. Dating is still typically old fashioned when it comes to the bill however. A lot of women enjoy insinuating that they don't mind splitting the bill, but I think if we're being realistic we can agree that most women don't really want to split the bill and don't take it well if asked. Furthermore, there are only a hand full of ways man can suggest splitting the bill without being considered less of a gentleman.
You said "Men tend to think that paying for a woman means that he has a right to her body in some for or shape, that he is owed something". What I said was in response to that and I stand by it. You can't simply you omit the context that leads to statement in a conversation. Misunderstandings are inevitable that way.
That's not what I said, that what you choose to take from it but I'll clarify. In other words, men like to work for a woman worthy of his time. I used your wording, as the basis of my stance because it was in my opinion the best way to relay my perspective. Without your prior statement, it would be logical to assume that I exclusively associate working for a woman body's as the sole purpose of a chase. My point was, I don't consider paying for dinner a logical reason to assume any one man has the right to a woman's body. Furthermore, I wouldn't want that, and I've expressed that multiple times.
I wished your view was more mainstream but it isn't.
You began by excluding the context associated with my statement and ran with it. Taking bits and pieces of what I said inevitably leads to misunderstandings. I too surrender but I'll close with this, I've encountered my fair share of great women, and shitty women. Just as clearly you've encountered you're fair share of shitty men. It's life, but its unrealistic to assume we all are the same, just as it would be unrealistic to think all women are the same.
Karahiri I wished your view was more mainstream among women but it isn't.
@TripleAce why do you say that? I've been a strong believer of splitting the bill for a very long time. Makes things less complicated.
For 2 reasons lol
1. I think you are doing it for the wrong reasons. Not genuinely wanting to split it just doing it so he doesn't feel he has some sort of surpriority over you
2. With that leads to reason number 2. I still think your ideal man is one that doesn't make you feel you need to do #1
So you still prefer he handles it just under the right circumstances
Lol
Just a feeling there hahah
@TripleAce
Here are my reasons in no particular order: Some guys think if they pay, they are entitled to some kind of physical repayment. I don't like the idea of that. I think if it only makes sense that the bill is split, especially since plenty of guys around my age are in a similar financial situation as myself- not a good one. I don't think it's fair to expect someone to pay for me. Even if the guy is more financially stable, I would feel guilty that he's spending his money on my meal- we both agreed to the date, we both want to know about each other... so we both should share expenses. If the date is going poorly, that's even MORE reason for us to split the bill. Now, if the guy and I have been dating for a while, then sure, we can take turns covering the bill.
@karahiri
If your main worry is that some men expect sex if they pay for an expensive date, surely the best strategy in order to find out if this is the case for your date would be to allow him to pay for it. If he then expects sex, you've very quickly found out he is not the type for you and you've wasted no money in the process. If he's not the sort who expects sex after paying, then he won't be put off by your not putting out and won't have even suggested it. Then you've found out he possibly is someone you might be interested in and on the next date you can offer to pay.
@karahiri
I was only suggesting this for a first date to weed out the assholes. Subsequently of course split the bill but it would be better than going on repeated dates with a guy who keeps trying to insist on paying the full bill but you don't allow it and you don't know if he's just a nice guy and happens to have some spare cash or really he's a chauvinist waiting to pounce on you to claim his reward as soon as you give him the slightest chance; all the while racking up expenses for you.
Opinion
101Opinion
A little jaded, are we? Pay attention, you don't get to ask a question and then pre-qualify answers. If some people believe a woman's only responsibility is to dress for the date and give thanks, there's nothing wrong with that answer. Especially since guys don't have the monopoly on dressing for dates. There's also nothing wrong with splitting the bill with her, or even her offering to treat. Life is full of choices, some are tougher than others, but they all have consequences. Some guys prefer to be approached, some girls prefer to approach. They may be the minority, but they definitely exist. If you decide to approach, you must approach respectfully. If you decide to be approached, you must BE approachable. These are decisions we get to make for ourselves, and we get to change our minds if we don't like the results of a given choice. Nobody said you HAVE to submit to a given role; if they did, they're either an idiot or an asshole. Put on your big boy panties and make some decisions for yourself. Otherwise, let others tell you how it's supposed to be. But know this: playing the victim absolutely doesn't absolve you of the responsibility for your choices. You alone will suffer or enjoy the consequences. That's the best reason to make good choices. The only reason in my not-so-humble opinion.
I don't believe in putting all the pressure on the man. I would like to ask him out on dates sometimes and pay. I typically offer to pay anyway.
I believe a woman's job or duty is to console her man, lift him up when he feels he isn't doing a good enough job. Give him confidence. Be his shield.
As far as bringing home an income, I believe both parties should, unless one of them wants to be a 'stay at home mom/dad' (which I personally don't find myself doing)
I think my opinion was based off of marriage but 🤷
As for dating, listen to him. Don't get on your phone. Seem interested. Have acceptable body language. Offer to pay for the meal. Be polite. I just thought this was obvious, it seems a lot of women are offended by it. I don't know
men was created to tak care of a woman and a was created to comfort her mate in every way but as th world continue generation change and th system of love change so human lost th idea of true love now im living in th this generation so both sex are working which wasn't so before but as it is i don't see a problem if they both love and care of each longs it is genuine from a sincere place not because of negative reasons and bad experience
I completely disagree with you...
Approach... I've approached guys who I was attracted to... in fact, I'm married to one !!!
Ask Out... I asked him out before he asked me out... he did follow up pretty quickly though
Pay... I generally paid for roughly half the dates I've been on... I insisted on it... and in some cases, I did things like cooking the guy a real nice dinner... in addition to time, the ingredients aren't free !!!
And then... I did dress nicely and did my best to be a fun companion for the date !!!
Well you're one of the few don't make it seem like its mainstream for women to be like you say you are.
No matter who pays... the woman should always thank the man for a pleasant evening! And the man should always thank her for the pleasure of her company. As far as paying going... it should be about 50/50. (But donât be one of those guys who works it down to the cent... thatâs just rude).
Times are changing. I see more women ask men out today than I did last year, thatâs for sure.
Also, if I ask him out, Iâm the one who invited him right? So I should pay because I asked him out.
If he asks me out, Iâll still bring my wallet and ask if we could split the bill. Paying for our own food/drinks/tickets is more fair, but most of the time heâs the one who pays IF HE asks ME out.
What you described in your question is for old-fashioned couples/dates. Many people still expect the guy to pay, but most of my female friends (that tell me about their dates) ask them to split the bill.
Wow. I've never seen a woman ask a guy out before in my whole life.
@LegateLanius I've never seen a woman ask a guy out either, its only on this site where I hear women say they asked guys out, I have never heard a guy in my life say a woman asked him out.
I hope you donât actually believe that thousands of women literally lie about this just âbecause.â
I personally have asked (and witnessed girls ask) guys out. Sometimes though, guys reject them (yes, guys have the ability to reject girls! What a surprise!) because they see them as âeasyâ. And yes, the very guys told me that theyâd rather ask a girl out instead of the girl asking them.
We canât ask guys out very often if theyâll see us that way. Make up your damn minds
I personally have no problem with a woman asking me out but i never seen anyone do that, that is all i am saying
Do you go out often? Do you have many female friends?
Yes to both although we all are quite far apart now after college.
So a few guys reject and then its time to throw in the towel because of some fool saying it makes women look "easy"? All men aren't like that. The women who claim they asked out and got rejected have to just keep trying, isn't that what men are expected to do when they ask out and get rejected?
It could be because in my case, my friends and I go to bars/dance clubs in groups. Our group is made of girls so I see how they ask out guys whom they find hot/handsome.
Also since Iâm mostly friends with people in our faculty, we get close and tell each other about guys weâve met and how they asked them out.
Sometimes guys resort to insults, claiming theyâre not interested in âgirls who give it away too easy.â đ of course there are men who know this is bs, but you know.
@Asker I think a guy who insults and disrespects a woman for asking him out doesnât deserve more chase. Lol, idiots are a turn-off. So if a guy rejects me or one of my friends, Iâm sure theyâll be smart enough to move tf on
Silverqueen yeah they're idiots for believing a woman is easy because they asked them out, I bet if the woman they asked out wanted to have sex on the first date, they wouldn't turn it down but since they asked her out, she wouldn't be easy then huh?
Statistically the vast majority of women (around 80%) still expect men to pay and for women who ask to split the bill what do they do if he agrees? From what I have seen they then dump the guy and never talk to him again. Also the who ever asks out pays is a cop out since in almost every scenario its the guy who asks out the girl so its a way of saying its fair while knowing that the woman will never actually have to follow through with this. Its not a very good or fair system, its just a way of claiming to do what is right with no intention of following through.
1. 80%? Whereâd you get that statistic from?
2. Itâs not a cop out. If men want women to ask them out, stop asking women out so much. People take advantage of what they can do, e. g. a woman who marries a rich man because he lets her, even if sheâs clearly a gold digger. Then the man complains about it. But he let her do it.
A survey, can't find the link as it was a awhile ago but here is one that show roughly the same numbers: www.nbcnews.com/.../#.WlnXJ0xFw2w
It also points out that what I said about it being essentially a ploy was in fact very much the case. Obviously not every woman is doing that but a significant number are to the point where that is what men expect. Even on this site I cannot tell you how many women have out right stated that if the man does not pay they will not give him the time of day or how they where offended when the man excepted their offer to pay and again, dumped him and never gave him a second chance. This is pretty common place.
That specific survey you linked doesnât âroughlyâ have the same numbers. You said 80%. This one says that AFTER a few âfree mealsâ, men would like women to chip in. And 57% of women (thatâs more than half) offer to split the bill. It also says that almost half of them are bothered when a man refuses (because men mostly refuse).
Youâve exaggerated the numbers, thatâs what happened here. Thatâs the first thing. Secondly, most of the women Iâve seen here on this site at least want to split the bill. Look at the opinions to this thread and please point out a woman (a single one) whoâd rather not split the bill in a date
No what it said was 44% would out right demand that the man pay, then out of the 53% who offer, 34% would be upset if he accepted the offer. That's over 50% of women according to that one survey and as I said, the other which is an older one stated about 80% but it still shows a significant number of women, over half, here is another survey that shows even more women being against paying: newsfeed.time.com/.../
Plus when you factor in that women generally are against dating men who earn less then them and when the woman out earns her husband she is more likely to divorce then if he out earns her we can say quite safely that women want men to pay. Its basic biology, women want providers and pretending like that is not something you want not only hurts you (women not you specifically)(you lie to the guy then resent him when he believes you) but men as well. Be upfront and honest with your expectations and everything is fine, its when your not that their is an issue.
I get asked out by girls about twice a year, but unfortunately it's almost never by girls who I'm interested in. And in some cases, it's out of the blue. I was at work last fall talking to a female coworker about something, and out of the blue, she says, "If you don't already have a girlfriend, we should get together soon." I think I turned red because it was so unexpected and at work. I admired her balls, but I can see why some girls get tired of guys hitting on them.
I think part of the reason guys complain is that most girls aren't as forward about asking guys out as they think they are. Girls will drop a lot of hints and give a guy clear signals of interest, but most of them won't just ask. Plus, guys often gloss over these signals because we've all had girls seem to flirt with us and then act surprised when we asked them out.
Anyhow, we all probably make it harder than it has to be, both sexes. But yeah, girls do get rejected, too. The guys who don't believe that are guys who've never had any female interest.
No, women don't ask a man out. He stated maybe twice a year, that's insanely high, but its still highly unlikely to occur, even for him. Personally I've only known one man who ever had a woman ask him out, it happened once to him and never again. Also you know statistics. Yes some women do on rare occasion, yes some of them are rejected but I'm not talking about the one out of 100,000 I'm talking about the other 99,999 times. Again, yes their are always exceptions, but I'm not going to claim that the exception is the rule when its not the case.
Also again, the statistics show that when the woman offers most women do not really want him to accept. That's what I was getting at. I don't know why women like to do this (in general) but that creates an unreasonable situation, if he refuses he is seen as a sexist asshole, if he accepts then he is a cheapskate and also an asshole. Just state what you want, which by the way the vast majority of the time is the man paying, and be done with it. You don't hear men talking about how they want really unattractive women then turn around and reject those same women do you? No, because we don't want those kinds of women, its fine to want things, but its not okay to lie or create weird conditions that allow you to claim one thing without actually having to follow through with it.
@hellionthesagereborn Alrighty.
Well I find really this "dating" stuff weird, in Latin America is kind of different in some way.
I offer to pay my part always, if he insist on pay both okay I agree, but I always offer myself to pay.
Also I try to make him spend a good time too, no sexual contact is needed but I've ideas too. I can call him one day and tell "hey let's go to see the new movie" and I invite him, we both go, then get an ice cream. I offer to pay both because I invited him.
It's not like I'll just dress myself and force him to do all, no.
So that can't be applied to me
This ^^^
To be honest questions like these make me wish i didnât have to date. First off dating shouldnât be a âjobâ for either person. They shouldnât âhave to do â things to please eachother it should all come naturally. At the end of the day weâre all humans trying to find a soulmate a womenâs role and a mans role in a relationship shouldnât exist it should be two people enjoying eachother.
Ideally it would all come naturally and everything would be magical but since when is it like that? All this stuff, like approaching, these are thing guys feel they have to do. I suspect women are often 'totally natural' when it comes to dating, but it's only like that for women because men are doing things to meet your expectations. Maybe you don't see it as a job, but guys are given the expectation to do these things, effectively it is a job they are made to do and that's how I think most guys see it. Use the approaching example; the vast majority of guys would prefer not to, yet can't trust that *anything whatsoever* will happen if they do nothing and wait. It's obviously a job to guys.
OK I've never dated as such as I've never found it easy to do what's expected of me because of my gender or ethnicity or even humanity but from observation I would say the woman's role in dating is:
âŞď¸ to select the best mate based on a variety of criteria such as physical attractiveness, conscientiousness, generosity, assertiveness, business acumen, appetite for risk, willingness to confirm, social skills, openness to manipulation.
âŞď¸to maintain the guy's interest in her for long enough to be able to make the selection based on above criteria without commiting herself too much in the process by becoming emotionally dependent or pregnant for instance.
In all of the above, it is assumed that sexual selection is predominantly carried out by the female of this species and that appears to be the case. Males are generally far less selective than females.
This question itself is consistent with the thesis that the male's approach to dating is not selective. If it were, the concern would be focused on how to avoid "gold diggers" in the same way womens' aim is to avoid men who expect sex if they shoulder the bill.
Instead of this tho, the question seems to suggest the asker would be quite happy to go on dates with women who don't want to pay their way, as long as they are prepared to compensate the male for expenses incurred on their behalf by an alternative method.
@Chiral I'm trying to find out what's the woman's job in dating. Men have this job of asking out and paying for dates. If a guy doesn't do these things, he will 99.9% of the time end up dateless and y'all know it. And what does me asking what is the woman's job in dating have to do with going on a date as long as sex is guaranteed?
I usually offer to pay or at least split the bill when going on dates, if it's a date that I asked for then I will pay, I disagree with "guys should always pay for dates" but at one point I kind dated this cheapskate guy and each time he made excuses of not having any cash and his bank card on him and I always had to pay! Eventually I had enough and called it quit but that's not the only reason I dropped him, he seemed kinda shady too (hiding his phone from me, panicking when getting a call while out with me)
I don't understand what's meant by the question, "what is the woman's job... in dating?". Based on the the context it sounds like this is an older thought process. When dating, some people think it's the man who pays for dinner, while other people think the bill should be split. This is something that is best to decide before going out, but as far as whose job is what while dating.
It's neither person's job to do anything on a date. The two people should put their best self forward and get to know the other person, perhaps make each other laugh.
But again as far as "job", I'm not sure what this has to do with dating.
Seems like most of the triggered people here are under the impression that you're insinuating that sex is a woman's job. For that reason I say the question could be worded better. Furthermore, just the inrtroduction of the idea that people have "jobs" when dating can be a bit off setting. Because most people don't want to think about dating in that way. It sort of devalues it. But I will say perhaps what doesn't need to be said, that far too many focus on the qualities that others have to offer, and not enough on the attributes they have to offer.
Dating is not a job. It's two people enjoying the company of each other, getting to know the other person better. It's the 'job' of both, to make the other person have a good time, whilst enjoying themselves. That certain people now use dating as a means of tricking people into serving themselves, is a different matter.
It must be a job because if you did a poll right now on who's job is it to approach, ask out and pay for the date/s , I'm sure that people will say its the man's job to do so in dating I just asked because those things have through history , has been viewed as the man's job so if men have a job in dating then what's women is what i'm asking.
In my experience, men put time and effort into planning the date, paying for it, and making sure its a positive experience, while women put time and effort into looking good, enjoying (or 'enjoying') the date, and making the date a positive experience.
When you account for the fact that women are expected to put lots of tine and effort into clothes, make-up, hair care, hair removal, styling, lingerie, etc, just to be considered eligible for the date, it kinda evens out with a man's the planning, stress, rejection, and hit to the wallet.
An analogue would be ballroom dancing. The women is expected to follow and enjoy herself and look good for the man, while the man is expected to lead and make the dance enjoyable as the price of admission to watch the good-looking woman who also makes him look good. Both have responsibilities and I don't think either one has a disproportionate amount.
So men don't take how they look on a date into consideration also? Do you show up in a dingy t-shirt and flip flops while she's dressed up? And all of the things that you said that women put time and effort into, men also put time and effort into those same things
Compare the time and effort a man spends on looking good to what a woman does. He doesn't necessarily have to shave - she has to shave pits, legs, and maybe more. He cuts his hair short, she has to wash and style long hair. He wears button up shirts and comfy slacks and maybe a jacket and decent shoes, she wears an ensemble including dress, heels, jewelry, and make up. He can get away with having a little gut, she can't. And these are just the basics - how many men get cosmetic surgery? Its insane to say the two are equivalent.
She can't get away with having a gut? Lol then only skinny women would date then. And she only has to shave legs if she's wearing a dress to the date and cosmetic surgery is a personal choice , nobody's getting that just to go on a freaking date.
Let me ask you: have you, as a dude, ever felt like you had to shave your legs if wearing shorts? I'm gonna guess no. Also, are more women or men dissatisfied with their SO if they gain weight after marriage? I'm gonna guess more men are upset than women. But if you think you've got to shave your legs and keep your sixpack for life, I guess you do you.
There is no man's job or women's job. I don't have the job to treat you as a women, only if i want to, but never in first date... If i don't get good vibes from you and if i don't like your company or your mentality, etc, we will never pass the first date... Stop following what society tells you they don't know shit and they are miserable. Is simple, Your women job is to please the men that you choose
Do the same thing the guy is doing. Yea it's nice for a guy to pay for the first date but women should also pay for a few dates as well, or at least half. They can plan dates or even turn the current date into something more exciting like entice you to take a detour on your walk and end up near a creek I don't know
Letâs be honest girls donât do that. They just expect the guy to do it
Iâm just saying what I have experienced. It sometimes has made me feel unattractive
Iâm not taking about paying. Iâm talking about initiating anything.
A woman's job is primarily selection. That's why women with low standards are viewed so derisively. On a date, the man is tested for wit, intellect and fiscal wellbeing. It's all a complex mating ritual, with the end goal of reproduction. Men know in the first five seconds of meeting a woman if this is someone they want to have sex with. But, as women have such a larger investiture, their process is more complex.
@CrashDF Having kids is irrelevant. We are biologically compelled towards the action because of how it happened to benefit previous generations. The outcome isn't something we consciously think about. For example, we mainly eat because it tastes good and want to feel satiated. We don't think about not wanting to starve. Well that was even more true for the million years we didn't understand the concept of starving. What he was saying is a possible adaptation of females. Of course we aren't 100% sure.
@cavmanier I must be a modern man because I want a women who is both beautiful because she eats & works out like an adult and smart with a career.
Everything I expect I offer.
@cavmanier "What he was saying is a possible adaptation of females. Of course we aren't 100% sure." Your right I was iterating to what he said about men only wanting sex. I don't think it's true. Women are just as shallow as we are, when it comes to just being physical we all have standards that we evaluate first. When we want more than a 1 night stand which is what most of us want we look for mental and emotional traits.
Well, there's the evolutionary drive, and then there's sexual imprintation. And people who have more chaotic childhoods are going to have higher sex drives, and lower sexual standards. If you experience a lot of stress during your developmental years, your body assumes you're growing up in a time of disruption. Maybe tribal warfare, maybe famine. Either way, a high mortality rate. The instinct then is to start reproducing early, and reproduce often. And women in these positions are going to become more R-selective in their choice of mate, likely choosing the larger, stronger males that are able to protect them. I don't know if this is the case with your friends, but it is happening more, and more often. The rocketing single motherhood rate doesn't help.
That is an extremely interesting view point and it explains my first girlfriend in highschool. But are women completely unaware of how these larger more alpha men behave?
My ex girlfriend from that time had a child a year later at 19 with someone who later cheated on her with her best friend and had 2 kids with her... than cheated on her with her best friend and had at least 1. I lost track after that. All have ruined lives, you would think that women know how the story ends with these guys but yet they keep going back. I've seen soo many women do this.
The number one reason for women being murdered in the U. S., by a large margin, is suspected or realized infidelity by a male partner. The reason why infidelity evokes such anger in men is for the element of paternity uncertainty. There's no such thing as maternity uncertainty. So the reason why women are made angry by infidelity is not because they don't know whose babies they're raising, but because there's a chance their chosen mate could abandon them. This fear is not nearly as strong in the confines of a committed relationship. One of the reasons male centered polygamy has taken root in so many cultures. So, male promiscuity is seen as a negative only so long as the women fear abandonment. Otherwise, it can even be seen as a positive. If you reproduce with a man who has the ability of mating with a large number of high quality women, there's a good chance your offspring will have the same ability. Thus, your genes will be spread at a higher rate.
@Easterwood
Your views are well thought out and logically reasoned; however, I think you risk being too formulaic in your approach to explaining human behaviour.
Firstly, as another person pointed out, it is a mistake to conflate the evolutionary result of a certain type behaviour and an individual's motivation for partaking in this behaviour. You may feel you know what you mean but this can lead to fallacious thinking.
As an example, I read recently an article in a well respected journal discussing observed homosexual behaviour in a certain species of primate. It explained some possible ways that such behaviour could increase reproductive success and survival rates for the group as a whole but then said something like: "some scientists believe these animals may engage in this behaviour for pleasure". As though most heterosexual activity came about as a result of two monkeys sitting down together and planning a family!!!
Secondly, the fact that paternity may be called into question when females don't conform to monogamous expectations, is not a reason to believe it is the main cause of the violent emotional reaction by men compared to women. Why should doubt concerning paternity be more inflammatory than fear of being abandoned?
@Easterwood your theories are entertaining and plausible, and would be interested to test.
That's a very individual question. Personally, I like the "old-fashioned" view on dating, mainly because it suits me. I like being the one who decides what to do and pays for it. Many men do. The very best scenario, however, would be when a girl offers to pay for her half, because then we can still insits on paying for her while at the same time knowing that she's not too demanding.
Where I come from it have become a certain stigma when you (the guy) is going by the book of asking out and paying for the meal and such.
I mean, it differs here and there, at least for the younger generation - especially if it's a new experience and you all shy and stuff.
But as a low-key collective thought, most women (and younger men mostly) feels that the "old methods of dating" leans a little to close by female oppression. I can personally understand that.
If I date someone new I usually let us pay seperetly for the meal. I mean, unless I get I feeling that she would expect me to pay - and I wouldn't mind. Especially if I'm the one asking out.
Hope that gives some thought :)
It's not the man's job to do those things unless he wants. The only job people really have in dating is being honest, kind and decent. The rest of it is what people decide to do because they want to.
I don't know about that because if a guy doesn't approach, ask out and be willing to pay for the date/s he will almost be guaranteed to be single for the rest of his life so guys have to do these things. The consequences of not wanting to approach, ask out, and pay for dates will effect men's chances of dating it doesn't effect women's chances of dating.
What other things? Elaborate
Semantics.
If he doesnât do things because he doesnât âwant toâ then heâs not appealing is he?
To women, generally speaking.
Okay, so in other words he *has to* or *should* do these things to have more appeal, right? Thus he has a "job" or a "role" or "expectations," whatever you want to call it, because even though he has the choice he would just be sabotaging himself if he chose not to.
Choose different wording if you like but it feels very much like a "job" to a guy.
No. Just very inconvenient if he or she doesn't have those things. Can't get around here with no car. I can't afford to support another person at this time. Not anyone's "job". I have dated people with no car and no income.
What do men expect of women? Tons of things, depending on the guy.
Fair enough, but I donât get the impression that itâs the norm for women to do that.
Guys generally donât have such expectations from women. The only expectation that might arguably exceed that of men is in the aspect of promiscuity and sexual history. Besides that, is there any âjobâ or expectation that men put on women in any aspect? I canât think of one atm â and isnât that the impetus of the original question? Guys feel like theyâre being asked for a lot; more than whatâs expected of women.
That's not unique to women though. What things are "the woman's job" as distinct from what men do.
@AllThatSweetJazz It's not the man's job to do those things unless he wants. *The only job people really have in dating is being honest, kind and decent.* The rest of it is what people decide to do because they want to.
Okay... let's phrase it another way. Are the things a guy would "want to do" for women proportional to what women "want to do" for men?
Never explained what other things women are expected to do to improve their chances of dating
Men are bestowed with a job in dating. Face it, if a guy doesn't approach women for dates, then he won't be dating 99.9% of the time, if he doesn't pay for the date, he won't be getting another date 99.9% of the time , why do you think there's self help books, online resources , etc, out there on how men can overcome shyness and how to approach women? There's nothing out there on to approach men why? Because 99.9% of the time women blatantly refuse to even if they're attracted so guys have to. And guys have to pay for date also why do you think there's advice tips and suggestions on how a guy can take a woman out without it breaking the bank? Because men have to pay its extremely rare for a woman to take a guy out and pay for the date and you know it , its rare like a solar eclipse.
Not all people stick to patriarchically reinforced gender norms. Some people don't even date men, and sometimes there are two men.
You have a very tiny frame of reference.
Do you support a changing view of gender roles? Or do you generally still want men and women to stay in traditional roles?
Does âsetting those expectations togetherâ actually result in something balanced? You keep saying yes and rewording it, but arenât saying what that would look like in real terms.
Also *patriarchy donât real* and wouldnât be relevant here anyway, so Iâd rather not get sucked down that rabbit hole.
@AllThatSweetJazz It results in those two people feeling agreeable about the situation. No one can guarantee perfect balance, and there are some people who recognize balance in a relationship is a series of successive approximations. There are also people who genuinely don't desire balance.
People get to have the kinds of relationship dynamics they want - and how they get those things is by communicating and making active decisions with their partners, not just assuming this or that.
And this is very much about traditional vs. modern gender roles, changing gender roles, and that has everything to do with the patriarchy.
They can come to an agreement but that doesnât mean they had equal negotiating positions in forming that agreement. Agreement doesnât mean fair. Iâm not convinced these approximations approach fairness in a relationship, but weâre talking about dating. Yes some people donât care for fair but weâre talking about people that do want to feel the situation is fair. Yes there are non-hetero couples but weâre taking about hetero coupledom. Yes weâre talking about changing gender roles and Iâm questioning if those roles have really changed, but I donât agree that patriarchy is real and even if it were it shouldnât be necessary in acknowledging the things women do in this situation.
What's is?
@AllThatSweetJazz Discussing it and not making assumptions.
I think there are several that ate willing to work, it just seems like most of them feel like the woman should work too and she's shitty of she doesn't. I me ma I understand it if you don't make enough for both of you, but if you and especially if you have kids, I don't think there's anything wrong with being a housewife
That is an old-fashioned view because not a lot of women were allowed to work nor did they get as much as men did. It's not the man's job to do so, if the person courting wants to it's a nice way of getting the attention of the other person, but both men and women can do so.
Women have always been allowed to work. We have documents dating back to the 1300s of female master blacksmiths. Women chose not to work because quite frankly it sucks and especially historically as it took you decades to get to a point where you could set up a shop (otherwise you where traveling from village to village practicing your craft) and potentially make money plus it was all grueling physical labor jobs which women didn't want. Also their is no wage gap, women got paid pretty much for what they worked which was less then men because they wanted to stay home with the kids as much as possible (not knocking it, just stating a fact).
And that's the history of which country?
All of them (but in particular the west). Do you honestly think a man would stop a woman from working if it did not adversely affect him? We don't get paid money to work because its a privilege, we get paid to work because the task wouldn't get done otherwise. Work is not some magical privilege, its a burden which is why women, having the option not to work, chose not to work. In fact if a man could not care for his wife and she had to work, he was considered a dead beat and this was grounds for divorce. Again, a man isn't going to stop a woman from working unless it directly and very negatively impacts him and even then stop would be a strong word.
That highly depended on social status, I do get your point and agree with it, just that a lot of women were also getting in a relationship and married because it would secure them a life without it, yet their jobs was about having a proud clean home, good food and taking care of the children. Being the mistress of the house and follow good etiquette rules was something more important than a job for some families. But that's just in one period of time. Now take a chill pill
First and foremost, I am not upset, I'm just stating that what you said is factually incorrect. I'm not emotional about it don't know why you would suggest I was. Secondly, your second statement isn't correct either. Yes women who didn't work cooked and cleaned, but that's because they didn't work. Its not like that's some how unfair, he worked, depending on the era, upwards of 100 hour weeks (it wasn't until the early 1900s that men even got more then one day off a week (sunday and that was because you where not suppose to work on the Sabbath) to pay for the house, fix any problems that the house had (as calling some one to fix anything was really rare) putting food on the table etc. It was simply showing gratitude for all the work that he did. Again, not sure why so many people claim that this was something that was forced on women, they wanted to do these things to show their gratitude to their husbands who where slowly killing themselves to provide all of this to their wives.
100 hour work weeks in a factor or a couple of hours of cooking and cleaning? Which one sounds worse to you? So as I said, women where very happy with that arrangement (which is why women in the fifties are happier then women today and women in traditional relationships report higher levels of happiness and satisfaction).
Traditionally, it was to remain pure and untouched so as to still be considered valuable enough to marry.
There is a growing number of females that may split the check or rotate the check based on dates and there's also some females out there too that also ask out and approach the guys. Even though this is not a majority it's more common than it Used to be
The woman's job is to just be herself. If she feels to pay for a meal or two, or pay for gas, or whatever she chooses it's up to her. In a rational mind, if she really does care about the other person and sees herself with him/her in the long run, she would try to support that person in whatever way; financially, morally etc.
Each man & woman are unique individuals. And when they interact that is unique to how their personalities mix.
Thinking back, I think all of the fun dates I had were spontaneous and not making demands on each other or treating it like a job interview or a test. Sure, you both are looking for things but itâs not rigid like your question implies in my opinion.
Nothing, that's why they love it so much and "it's fun". The guy does ALL the work (and stress), and they can pick and choose who they want or don't want.
The girls job is to rent out the gladiator ring, provide weapons and pit all the contenders against each other XD
To take care of you, showering you with love, cook for you, be there for you, make your stress day better at night, massage you, supporting you, buy gifts, and the list goes on..
After that, if the relationship go to marriage, give you descendants, raise kids, keep the house tidy and clean, work too if it need, have sex with you (?), and be your partner until you old and grey.
Still not enough?
Everything sounds perfect except the sex part. Sex is not a favor a woman would give instead she is getting orgasms.
U sound like a wife tho. Do those things for a guy who appreciates it.
That's enough for me lol
@TheUglyMan Thankyou! haha
Well for 1, women want equal rights... Well then start acting like an equal. U can be the first to approach. U can be today. U want to make the guy know Ur interested. U can today. Nothing's wrong with going out sometimes and being that go getta. I've had a few do this to me... And I found it quite interesting. Altho in the end, my friends know I'm the lion. I'll take care of them. If that makes sense.
I agree with the women. Nobody has a "job" in Dating. Everyone does what they are comfortable with.
So if you like somebody, you let that somebody know and ask that somebody out. Agree in beforehand what the date will be (cheap or no cost) and that's it. Don't forget to bring both of your wallets just in case.
There are no jobs when it comes to dating and courtship
People who think like that aren't worth dating
Job sounds a bit ehh...
in my opinion it's nice if both treat each other well and have fun regardless of conventional rules, if there is feeling then you don't have to feel forced to do something, buuut! It really depends like, for me it was a bit different because it was me pursuing him and I had to do stuff to make him fall for me â¤
It's a bit cowardish to ask a question anonymously and then say most answers are triggered, they are just answers...
Maybe the purpose of the asker was to trigger? Maybe that is the reason why he sees the answers that way...
I will definitely approach a guy if i like him and want to know him.
And about paying for dates i believe we should just pay for our own food. And i would never want the guy to pay for me and be in debt to him.
The womenâs job is to avoid guys like you. No sane female wants to date a man with your outlook on dating. Itâs not a âjob.â If you donât want to date then donât. Your attitude sucks.
I think his portrayal of the question could have used some work, but I think he might genuinely just be trying to understand dating as a whole. We all start somewhere. I've enjoyed your perspective on other topics so I definitely wouldn't mind your opinion here. In my view, dating definitely isn't a job, I wouldn't want to do it if it were. Dating is supposed to be fun, and can be, but often we complicate it by associating roles to each gender so to speak.
I wouldn't call it a job but it definitely takes work
When I dated I never left all the work up to the guy. Iâve made plans, paid, looked pretty AND did the asking. If I were to use my own experience couldnât I be asking him the same question? Yes I think the asker is complicating his question.
His wording is off putting. Itâs not his English thatâs the problem. Nice try.
Yes dating takes work on BOTH sides.
Should a guy be doing these things if he wants a girl to like him?
You can just tell such angry comments come from a grumpy girl - yeah, the guy that asked that question probably was thinking about someone like you.
@pink1980 You tell me, that's the original question being put to you here.
You didn't answer it though, you deflected onto the asker with an ad hominem. You also deflected my question by asking your own and going in a circle.
If you think the expectations or "jobs" are the same then say so and argue that point.
The end result of the question doesnât apply to me. I did answer the question a few replies back. I donât wait for a man to approach me. If Iâm inserted Iâll ask a guy out, Iâll make the plans, pay and still look pretty. I didnât reflect nor answer in a circle. Anything else?
That to me sounds like another deflection. If it wasn't you would have simply said it as answer, not attacked the asker first.
Your *interpretation* was that it was rude. It's not up to the asker to police how you interpret the word "job." Get past the semantics and get to the fundamentals.
Also, you were under no obligation to be "hostile" in response and it doesn't mean you can't still provide a meaningful answer -- you could pontificate on the topic instead of being dismissive. Basically it's a pointless excuse, but whatever. Small potatoes.
More importantly. So offense was taken at the idea that "women don't do their 'job' in the dating game"? Okay, that's interesting, so you're suggesting they *are* doing their "job," whatever it is? We would love to hear the details about that; that's the fundamental point of the question after all.
It's not my question but I'd like to hear the answers.
Your answer seemed to be that you'd do everything that a guy would. Okay, but I don't think you're reflective of most women in that respect, no?
So a guy who's obviously not happy with his dating life asks a question in a disappointed tone - and you slap him as response? Because that is supportive, right, and you're such a nice person?
And besides, if you take the guy's role (as described in the question) - why not just respond - initially - with 'not all girls are like that, I pay for my own dates etc.'
Why do you feel the need to dismiss/attack him - in his own forum post?
Everyone calling this old fashioned or some shit. Its how it always has been. The man is the leader and says what goal the woman has.. the woman wants to follow and enjoy the ride with you. Your job as a man is to enjoy yourself and nothing else
It's the man's job to ask and pay for yes.
After that it's pretty well the same. To talk, and get to know each other to see if there is a reason to spend more time together or say goodnight and move on.
Dating isn't hard! Lol
Take it from me, leave the old rules (bs) behind you. A man loves a woman who's considerate and not self centered and selfish. The more consideration you show the more generosity and kindness you'll receive from a gentleman. Not asking you to pay the whole bills but offer to pay or insist to split the bill (s). Always contribute but give him the chance if he wants to spoil you. Relationships are a teamwork, it's not adoption or free service.
for me personally i want girls to show interest in me and manitain that interest til the find out what kind of a guy i am, a lot of girls dont even show interest and expect guys to read their mind, or withdraw their interest the moment a guy says hi and start the shit tests..
its simple show me you want me
Keep the guy happy, stay loyal and fulfill his needs.
no one should have a job while in the relationship. the only job is to support and respect each other.
A woman worth keeping doesn't treat dating like that. You want a teammate in your life. Not someone that uses you
As far as Iâm concerned, there are no defined âjobsâ or rules for either the man or the woman in dating and courtship.
In the 21st century, the man paying on the first date is wildly inappropriate. It sets up far too many expectations on both sides. In the 21st century, it is appropriate for both people to make their intentions clear.
To be flexible and understanding. To make it not just the man's job. It takes two.
But letâs be honest girls (not all but a lot) expect the guy to initiate everything, at least thatâs been my experience
Or they just aren't interested in me. The last 4 times i've gone after girl this has happened-
-I liked her for 6 months. She led me on and rejected me, slept with the foreign exchange student (he's better looking than me)
-Later that year, I fall for another girl, but find out 6-8 weeks later she has a boyfriend
-2 years later, fell for one of my friends. Mutually agreed that being friends is the best option for us, she gets a new boyfriend 2 months later
-6 months later, met a cute girl at my job. Asked for number 2 months ago and got it. A month ago I ask her out she says yes, but cancels the night before. I'm still talking to her but I initiate literally every conversation. Like i'm the one who starts every conversation.
Like I said i'm tired of initiating everything in dating and i'm tired of feeling lost and confused.
I've never won
No but the potential success is worth it
A relationship when it comes to dating and courtship to me should also be a partnership. Me and my SO should use our strengths for the betterment of the pair and delegate the things that neither are good at
My time, my vulnerability, being able to communicate and also my money because guys aren't the only one to pay and also me sometimes asking a guy out because girls also ask out
Well it's the man that has all the expectations put on him. Women don't have anything to do other than show up and make conversation, anything else is just strictly volunteer for them.
1) allow thr man to pay for the first date. You can split the second one.
2) be wise in food choices. Dont pick smt too expensive and drain him.
3) be engaging. Dates are about the people, not the food.
4) Be punctual.
5) Smile!
If what you are saying is what happens then genuine appreciation is whatâs required by us.
HAHAHA all these butthurt feminist here. The job of a woman is to open up emotionally. Because that's though for most guys.
I am always entertained by the vast difference between what women say and what they actually do. LOL
They have to take the time to judge all of their various suitors and determine which one is worthy of the privledge of dating them.
Can't tell if serious.
In my experience, its been me to do all three. Its men who are obsessed with roles in dates, not women.
It costs more for women to dress up. It also takes them longer to get ready.
It's the woman's job to laugh at all my jokes, scratch my back after bomb sex, and pretend to like sports I like.
I won't know the answer to this. I may never know the answer to this, for I have no notion about dates or women for that matter. The women I develope feelings for aren't generally attracted me. So what's the point in making an effort. Ever been so single for so long that you begin to not care about some basic manners.
Well regardless what anyone says here
In reality, in practical terms - women hate paying for dates especially first dates!
I feel like her job is to facilitate the connection between them. She reassures him, laughs at him and helps to create the environment for their love to grow together
To be herself, to want her date to be themselves, and to try to have a good time if possible.
1. Show up on time.
2. Keep up current on birth control.
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