The "Nice Guys Aren't REALLY Nice" Concept: Could Someone Please Explain It To Me?

[loveisbeautiful]

I'm making this a take because I'll be giving my thoughts on this but, it's also a question I'd like to have answered. I'm a common sense and logic person, I'm also curious about things I don't understand and want to understand them better. This is something that makes no sesne to me and I'd very much like to understand it, so I can see other peoples point of view (if possible) .

So, let's begin.

1. Guys that say they are nice, are putting on a facade.

According to the numerous takes I've seen on here by women on this topic, nice guys aren't really nice. Which if we go with that theory, means all guys are basically liars. The opposite of nice, is mean and the opposite of good is bad. So logically speaking if the nice guys aren't really nice, that means they are actually mean and pretending to be someone they are not.

So, my question is. If all women actually feel there are basically no nice guys and even the ones that say they are nice, aren't actually nice, then why bother dating?

I mean the biggest part of any relationship is trust and if you can't trust any guy because they are all disguising themselves as someone they are not, then what would be the point of dating? Wouldn't that just be a gianormous waste of time, if women feel all guys are fakes and liars?

2. Somehow declaring they are nice, equates to that being a lie.

According to women, any guy who say's he is nice is not actually nice. Now, from my stand point saying you are something does not mean you are a liar. It's a statement, a fact. It shouldn't be looked into further than that.

My question is, if we go with this theory that saying you are a nice guy makes you not nice. Does that then mean that anything you say about yourself, should be taken as a lie? I mean, if I say that I'm a good person and I treat people well, does that somehow automatically equate to me being the opposite of that?

Also, if a guy has bad luck with women and say's (in frustration) "I'm a good guy, I don't get why it's so hard to find a woman". How does that then translate to him being a jerk and not a nice guy? Isn't there a chance it's just the way he feels and is just confused why things are so hard for him? We are entitled to feel upset, so I don't get the problem.

3. Words apparently speak louder than actions.

Call me crazy, but if someone is truly not a good person or not nice, it will be easy to tell. However, little things shouldn't be taken as a guy not being nice. Is standing someone up a jerk move? Sure, of of course it is but that does mean that because he's a jerk he's actually a bad person? No, it doesn't. It just mean he has sucky manners and isn't very considerate of others feelings, but that doesn't make him a bad person. It just makes him a flawed person.

My question is, why is everything a guy does that can be easily defined in a different way by most people. Somehow end up being defined as him being a bad guy or not a nice guy, by women? I just don't quite understand it.

These are the questions I pose and I hope someone can give me some answers, thanks.

[MrOracle]

"Nice Guys" know they lack things that women are attracted to - though they often don't realize what that thing is - and they often assume it's "bad behavior." What "that thing" is is CONFIDENCE, and they're right in one aspect: Bad Boys almost always have confidence - they're just not the ONLY ones who do.

Anyway, knowing that they lack these qualities that women find attractive, they ask women what they want in a guy, or they look at movies or songs or stories, and among a short list of things most women mention as wanting in a man, they'll list "nice" or "kind." The Nice Guy will seize upon this, and say to himself: "Hey, *I'm* nice! Maybe if I'm even NICER, and do things for her, and give her a ton of attention, and loan/give her money, and listen to her sob stories, then maybe she'll give me a chance."

Girls correctly point out that these guys aren't being "nice" to her just because they're nice - they're being nice to her with a HIDDEN (or sometimes obvious) agenda: to get her to consider dating or sleeping with him. Thus, they don't see him as "nice", even though he may expend a lot of time, effort, and money on her (which, she will often take, which in my opinion is just as wrong).

And the Nice Guys get upset when being "extra nice" just doesn't work, while they see the girl they like date CONFIDENT guys who often treat her poorly - and assume that girls are lying and that they really want jerks.

The truth is that women want Good Guys - guys who are CONFIDENT but also genuinely nice without an agenda. Such a guy doesn't take crap from people, and isn't afraid to defend himself (or her), but he doesn't look for trouble and doesn't treat her like a jerk just because he probably could.

There is a shortage of Good Guys, though, so the women who can't get one now has to choose between what's left: Bad Boys and Nice Guys. Most will choose a Bad Boy over a Nice Guy because the Bad Boy's bad behavior will be judged better than being with a spineless, whiny pushover who is afraid to make a decision or ever tell her "no."

Most Nice Guys can't accept that they have the power to become Good Guys - they just have to be willing to change their thinking and their approach, which is something most Nice Guys are unwilling or (more likely) afraid to do. I know - I used to be one.

[Careless_Whisper]

That'snot really true because women often tend to cheat on and leave the confident nice guys and go for real asshole jerks.

[MrOracle]

@Careless_Whisper Yes, it is true (as a generalization - exceptions always exist), and no, they really don't. For most women, the Bad Boy is her second choice behind a Good Guy. Women rarely choose to step down.

[Careless_Whisper]

Not true at all. Women constantly reject good men and go for assholes and jerks. You can deny it all you wish, you're still wrong.

[MrOracle]

@Careless_Whisper

everything4baby.com/.../crying-baby-1.jpg

[Breadwinner]

I believe you're relatively right... Especially about the hidden agenda part except that there is also guys who act "nice" for the shits and giggles or "lulz" they give "nice" guys a bad name. I remember every girl i talked to within the last 5 years never believed any of the things i said genuinely... due to these assholes roaming the world acting nice and in the end destroying their hearts and not care what so ever about them and move on to the next chick. And i didn't know that there was a short stock in guys like me the "good" guy. Have a great summer by the way

[lumos]

There's a difference between genuinely good guys and "nice guys" who are faking their niceness because they think they'll score brownie points with the girls - sex. Nobody who's ranting about "nice guys" (the quotation marks make all the difference) is claiming all guys are like this. They often make the distinction between "nice guys" and good guys.
As for your second point, "nice guys" have a tendency of boasting about how nice they are. But then they turn around and call women bitches, sluts, whores, golddiggers etc. just because they can't get laid. They talk about wanting to "become assholes" despite already acting like assholes by treating women like second class citizens who owe them sex. Of course people are allowed to talk about who they are and what values they have. But if they keep going on and on about how nice they are without backing it up with actions, and in the same breath complain about how all women are bitches... guess what? They don't seem very nice.

[EllieLexis513]

Lol, go tell that to the butthurt people on the Take I wrote like 2 days ago hahaha

[lumos]

@EllieLexis513 link? :D

[EllieLexis513]

www.girlsaskguys.com/.../a28980-5-reasons-nice-guys-aren-t-all-actually-that-nice

[lightbulb27]

The real question is... is the MAN available to you emotionally, does he care about you, and is he considerate and express concern and love to you as a human being... woman?

There are videos that explain this well. In general, some guys can act "nice" but the perception of it is they are weak and wounded... needy. That is, they have really been traumatized in life to some degree (family, friends, themselves, or they just haven't matured) and they are being nice to get approval from you. WOMEN Can't stand that... The Bible covers this well in the fall of man story Genesis 2-3. The woman picks a forbiden fruit and hands it to the man who submits to her and eats it even though they both know they shouldn't! Doh! The perfect man submitted to a womans emotions... bad idea... weak! And that led to pain and suffering... its story, but the model is right to me.

Anyways...

But, it is possible for a MAN to be good to a woman (do nice things) and it be genuine out of concern and appreciation of her. Its really what is the motivation for the action and truth of it. that is relavent.

Now the flip side is woman. Woman, in their fallen nature, want a strong emotional presence (again the Bible story to me is right on...). If a male shows up that treats her in a commanding, controlling way, dominant and such (e. g. think nature now), they often like that... it feels good. That can easily be misperception because he could be a "player", "bad boy", "nacrissist", but it appears the woman cannot differentiate very well (at least some of them cannot or choose not to until they wisen up or decide they don't like the treatment forthcoming).

If the "nice guy" shows up, he gets turned away because he feels bad to the woman... blech! If the "good guy" shows up, and he knows how to feed her positive experience, conversation and emotion, generally he can have success... with at least some women. Its not guaranteed because women can have some quite complex emotional barriers to get through.

[Rloco]

If someone points out how generous they are, how nice they are or how humble they are they usually have another motive. Also if a guy is rejected and is doing "nice" things to get the girls attention then he's not tmreally nice either. While I don't identify as a nice guy that's what girls label me as. I'm a person who tends to help people because it's what I feel is right. Not for any other reason. Sure if I like a girl and I could do something that would put a smile on her face then I'd gladly do it. But most of the time when I do this she has no idea I like her. So I do because it brings joy to the other person that's it. I don't get anything out of it other than maybe seeing her smile. A true "nice guy" does "nice" things for others not for himself. I've never had a girlfriend or any relationship. Not for lack of trying or from being being a pushover but just because for some reason I'm not appealing as a boyfriend. It's not the girls fault or even my own. I will continue to do nice things for people because it makes me feel good to make others happy. I'm don't do it to get others to like me, I also don't do it for some other motives. So if a guy seems like he wants anything else he's just acting nice. I hate the term "nice guy". I prefer to just be labeled as a person. If I do things that make others happy so be it.

[D_Bone_Steak]

Dude, when a guy feels the need to point out how nice they are…HUGE RED FLAG!!! That dude is usually pointing out how the competition just wants some V for their D when they are doing EXACTLY that by putting all the other dudes down just to get that girl convinced that she should give him some V for his D…because he’s being “nice” about it. It’s pretty sick when you actually think about it. Like psycho sick. So on to #2, are you serious? So if I say I’m god, it’s a statement and you shouldn’t look further into it than that? Again…ARE YOU SERIOUS? But that’s okay when a dude is saying they’re nice. Second paragraph…not all, just a red flag…that’s usually right. Third paragraph, it’s that presumption that he was owed some pussy just because he was being “nice” and/or “friendly” as if not being an asshole rapist that restrained himself makes him the guy she should give it to. They’re upset because they feel entitled to the V…just because they didn’t “take” it like someone that sexually assaults a woman. It’s retarded when you think about it. As for #3…women need to be careful dude. If we are sending red flags that we see them as an object that should give us what we want because we didn’t rape and torture them for it…maybe…just maybe…it’s best not to get involved with that person.
Take a second to imagine women having venom or a stinger or something…if she just wants to kill guys and is giving plenty of hints that’s what’s she is up to…would you really fuck with her? Just saying... giving a relationship to a woman that is a hot mess is anything that most men would advise against. So it's not such a great leap for women to heed the same advice.

[circlebill]

To loveisbeautiful - I wish to commend you on the questions you wisely asked on the men under the nice guy label! It appears that most people on GAG only have stereotyped cartoon caricature images in their brains when nice guys are mentioned! I think many females can't help dumping on nice guys because they are actually ASHAMED!

So many feminist go around demanding that men respect them as far more than just sex objects! The nice guys lavish their kindness and highest respect on women! Nice guys and feminists seem like a perfect match for each other! But feminists feel no tingle between their legs from a kind, considerate nice guy! Look at the position that puts feminists into! Nice guys are everything feminists CLAIM to want! But there's no vagina tingle! Rather than look like the hypocrites they are, feminists desperately need to discredit nice guys! Look at a lot of the answers here! Well you sound like a very intelligent woman! I hope you found the answers you needed! You have may respect! Peace!

[loveisbeautiful]

Thank you.

[MrShinyPants]

Firstly, let me say this, i try my best to be nice, to be courteous because a lot of others dont in this world and im only nice, to those who have shown me that they are honorable, honest, trustworthy and kind, otherwise i won't be overly nice to those who aren't, i won't be mean, just indifferent. Now if they are a dick and start something yes i will put them in their place, otherwise you can expect good behavior from me. Secondly i dont like playing these games others do, so if i say something, thats what it means most of the time, but just to be safe ask me if thats what i mean, because sometimes i may say something and mean something else by mistake or changed a phrase's or word's meaning to something less insulting or bad. Thirdly words do not speak louder then actions, words are usually mired in riddles or lies and falsities. So if you ask me something i can almoat guarantee its the truth, because i dont like lying because its pointless and a waste of time and energy and i wouldn't even be able to remember the lie later on. Only time i would lie is to avoid hurting someones feelings if the truth would cause problems or devestate them. I wouldn't lie persay just give a partial truth. Plus i dont like recieving lies and can tell most of the time when someone lies, so i try not lying because i dont appreciate being lied too.

Next, i dont put on facades, because its pointless and a waste of time and i like being me, so if you see me, that is me, not some fake act.
Lastly declaring your a nice guy isn't a lie, only if their boasting about being a nice guy. Yeah, some guys are fake nice guys, but the real ones that are nice you can spot right away because they dont play head games nor give bull crap. Sorry for the long reply but can't really reply to this with a short one and explain things at the same time.

[Anonymous]

1. This is in reference to the guys who do nice things for a girl ONLY to get in her pants, so when she rejects them they claim that ALL GIRLS HATE NICE GUYS. They are the ones who generalize first. So when girls say that it's just a facade of being nice, that is the situation they're referencing. If you only do a nice thing to get something out of it, you're not actually a nice person.
2. It seems that the self-proclaimed "nice guys" are usually the ones who are the fake nice guys. If a guy is actually nice, then his actions will show it, and he doesn't need to go around whining "but I'm a nice guy why don't girls like me?" Legitimate nice guys don't usually go around bragging about how nice they are. They just are nice, and that's it. So when a guy on this site feels the need to talk about how nice he is, then usually he's one of the fakes.
3. You're not crazy, your actions truly will show that you're a good person. That relates to what I said above. Actual nice guys don't need to go around telling people how nice they are, because their actions show it. THAT'S why girls are distrustful of guys who constantly talk about how nice they are. You don't need to tell me you're nice, just show me.

Of course there are some genuinely nice guys who have bad luck with girls, just as there are genuinely nice girls who have bad luck with guys. No one has an issue with genuinely nice guys. It's the fakes who pretend to be nice who ruin it for everyone else.

[genuinlysensitive]

1. I almost never hear or read that from rants about nice guys. If you actually talk to nice guys you would see that its they are told they are "Nice guys" (and are nice its just the personality) they then get rejected for a guy who is so obviously playing the girl he should have "FUCKBOY" tattooed on his forehead. Then when she realizes she was played she wonders "why can't I meet a guy who loves me for me?" Uh, moron you did, you rejected him for the fuckboy, remember?

2. Than you don't hate nice guys you hate liars, correct? You should be more accurate in your bashing. You hate liars. NOT NICE GUYS.

3. Nice guys know we are nice. We also have people tell us. A lot of nice guys, in case you didn't notice have underdeveloped social skills. People say we are nice so, hey when they ask about us we tell them what we are and how people view us.

4. Than as in #2 you should say it! You don't hate nice guys, you hate LIARS!

[Opinion Owner]

@genuinlysensitive Yes, I hate liars, not actual nice guys. But the problem is, the Liars don't realize they are lying! The actually believe they are nice! They actually think "hey, I held the door open and complimented her, why didn't she give me her phone number?" If I write a Take talking about how annoying liars are, those "nice guys" are going to comment and say "yeah, you need to stay away from jerk liars, that's why you need a nice guy like me!" and not even realize that I was talking about THEM. They don't walk around calling themselves nice guys because they are deliberately being manipulative, they say that because they believe it! That's why a lot of girls on this site write Takes that say "Hey, maybe you're not actually a Nice Guy." And I'm sorry if you've never read a Take like that on this site, but I've seen a whole bunch. They're very clear, but usually people don't take the time to read through them, they just post angry comments without actually reading.

[genuinlysensitive]

Trust me, they know they are lying. They just are really good at convincing people they are genuine when they really are not. Otherwise they wouldn't be able to get away with lying. Liars will lie about anything they think will benefit them. If they think lying about being nice will do so they will. If they think something else will they will lie about that.

As for the anti-nice guy takes, why are they not anti-liar takes? I mean if a liar lies to a woman about being single do women start bashing guys in relationships/married guys, or "self proclaimed" guys in relationships/married? NO! They bash (and rightly so!) liars! But for some reason when it comes to guys lying about being nice instead of bashing liars, they hate "nice guys." This in turn makes other women fear and distrust nice guys, so when they actually meet one who is, they run away. It is wrong in so many ways and needs to stop.

[Opinion Owner]

@genuinlysensitive... Please re-read my comment. I already explained why the takes say "nice guys" instead of saying "liars."

I've met LOTS of guys that fall into that category of actually thinking they are nice, so no, they're not liars. Their logic is: "holding a door open for someone is a nice thing to do. I will hold the door open for this girl. Hey, why didn't she give me her number? Ugh, I guess girls just don't like nice guys anymore :(" - That's what they're thinking. So trust me, if I write a take that says "Girls hate Liars," those guys aren't going to realize the Take is about them.

And this makes other women distrust nice guys? Give me a break. Women make their own choices about guys. If you honestly think that someone writing an article on this silly website is going to change the opinion of all women, then you're extremely naive.

[genuinlysensitive]

I explained why its wrong to use "nice guys" instead of "liars". People like you are nothing but bullies. You pick on actual guys who are nice by demonizing them to other women.

[Opinion Owner]

@genuinlysensitive I'm sorry, you seem to be struggling with comprehending what I wrote. Please try and re-read my comments, because the explanation is there.

[circlebill]

Actually, the other fellow has a point! You at least acknowledged the existence of genuine nice guys. Many people of both genders are constantly dumping on the fake nice guys. As a result, many genuinely nice guys are automatically dumped on and demonized as well! And there is no female equivalent! Nice girls are NOT automatically dumped on and demonized!

[AleDeEurope]

The "nice guy" thing is something bitter girls use as an excuse to why they can't get any guy.
Apparently, there's no nice guys out there.
Like the idiot who wrote a Take saying that if you don't want to date woman because you're not attracted to her, you're not nice. Or if you consider yourself a nice guy, you're not nice.
That's ridiculous. So you gotta think negatively of yourself? Cause if you think something positive, apparently you're lying.

To these girls, a guy is bad no matter what. But is GAG, I don't expect to see many women around, and as long as Takes from whiny girls keep getting promoted, we're gonna see less and less women.

[Belgie]

It might help if you read some of what people said instead of apparently just guessing.

Nice guys doesn't mean nice guys. It means a very specific subset of guys who go around self-proclaiming themselves as "nice guys" AND THEN expecting that this is a sufficient reason for girls to want to date them.

Since girls do not, these self-professed "nice guys" typically rage at women, claiming they are lesbians, or only want to date jerks and scumbags who will treat them poorly. They lament the fate of these girls, who would have much better lives if they would only open themselves up to dating a nice guy like him.

They never once think the problem is with them, or fixable. It's always "Girls won't date someone my height/size/income bracket etc.." It is the girls fault, always and forever. How could it be otherwise? They are so damn nice.

[Sara413]

It essentially comes down to this - actually nice, kind, good people don't need to tell people they're nice, kind, good people.

Generally, when you hear a guy refer to himself as a "nice guy", it's in the context of him complaining that he isn't getting the rewards he feels he is entitled to for being a nice guy (ie sex and/or affection from women). The fact that he views his niceness as something he is owed rewards for means he is not actually nice at all and only acts nice towards certain people (attractive women) in order to get what he wants from them (sex/affection).

Someone who is actually a nice person is nice to others simply because they like being nice. Not to get anything from them.

[ak666]

The term "nice guy" has kind of become used more not to describe a gentleman who is compassionate but someone who tends to be socially awkward, thinking they're entitled to a woman's interest simply due to kindness, etc.

You can spot the contradiction when you see a "nice guy" complain about how all the girls he was kind to rejected him as a love interest, perhaps driving him to the point of being very bitter towards women.

That, itself, shines a spotlight on the fact that he isn't genuinely nice. He was kind to women with the expectation (or at least strong hope) that doing so would make her attracted to him and become his mate. It's being kind with ulterior motives at that point.

[ak666]

"You deserve someone who cares about you." --- aww, classic kind of cheesy romance film line. Except it's typically one of the most selfish things to say, because when guys say something like that, they usually mean, "You should be with me, not all those other guys, ME!."

[ak666]

"You deserve someone better -- me me me me me, better than all these other guys: the one who kisses your ass all the time." -- nice guy type of thinking.

[ak666]

These types of "nice guys" don't applaud those girls they exceptionally nice to when they get a nice and loving boyfriend. They can be overall sweet people to everyone around them, but they get jealous and think she deserves better (very egotistical thinking), for the mere act that they bowed underneath her shadow for so long. It's not really about her happiness, it's about their fundamentally flawed idea that caring overrides all other qualities of attraction. Besides that, their idea of "caring" is usually based on inexperience, it's based on fantasies of romance.

[PrincessofNohr]

I agree completely. The "nice guys" who girls tend to complain about are the ones who bitch about being a "nice guy" and not getting girls. The ones who are authentically kind because that's who they are will not be the ones whining about being single.

[circlebill]

Your position has some very serious defects! You really need to rethink your statements! According to you, any nice guy who hopes to eventually be appreciated and find love is a bad person! Can't you see how ridiculous that is? So it's wrong for a nice guy to ever seek female companionship? Why do so many people mention the term "nice guy" and immediately project a cartoon image of an uncaring jerk who is NOT nice? The QA made a lot more sense! How dare a nice guy go around treating women well and hoping to be treated well in return!

[ak666]

@circlebill Expecting reciprocation of kindness takes away some of the meaning of it (though we generally all do this). Expecting someone to fall in love with you through kindness really surpassing the territory of admirable actions. Not all girls are mean to nice guys. Sometimes they merely don't date them.

[ak666]

@circlebill... that can still lead to a growing resentment of women. I've witnessed in myself in nice guys who were treated nicely and gently back, the girl merely didn't sleep with them. If you imagine kindness in the form of a gift, showering a girl with presents with the hope that she'll fall in love and sleep with the guy takes away a lot of the value of the gifts.

[ak666]

@circlebill... the part many nice guys miss is the idea that being kind to a woman does not entitle him to romantic affection. It would be in her courtesy to be kind to him, but many of these guys almost act like they're betrayed if she ends up going after a different guy as a boyfriend. That's the major fault I see, and what they fail to realize is that attraction operates on a different level than what they see in a lot of Hollywood films.

[ak666]

@circlebill Put another way, it is a decent expectation to believe that being kind to a woman will grant you her courtesy. It is not a decent expectation (nor a level-headed one) to believe that kindness can buy a woman's desire and love.

[circlebill]

I don't know where you and a lot of other people come up spewing all this idiotic nonsense about so called "entitlement"! Genuine nice guys face a lot of rejection! If they thought they were "entitled" they wouldn't be try so hard to earn even the smallest crumb of affection! When a man treats women with utmost kindness and proper respect, why do women automatically considered him to be DOG CRAP! And yet, pedophiles, rapists, criminal felon gang members, drug dealers and even convicted MURDERERS are constantly sought after by desireable, young women! But nice guys trying to please women and hoping to find love is the big problem! I'm sorry, but... IT'S A CROCK!

[ak666]

@circlebill Afraid you're quite wrong there. I'm afraid if nice guys listen to you, they'll end up being virgins for the rest of their lives. The evidence saturates us every day that women are not attracted to a man simply for being sweet to her. It's not helpful to label every girl who turns down a guy who is kind to her as being a bitch with a cold heart.

I'm here to actually *help* the nice guys out there. If they realize the playing field operates on attraction rather than just being that guy who fixates on a girl and thinks she deserves "someone better" (aka him), they can potentially fix what they're doing wrong and start actually attracting women.

[ak666]

@circlebill How do you propose to these kinds of desperate and sad nice guys out there how to improve their luck with the ladies? Would you suggest they just keep fixating on new girls and being kind to them and hope that some day this will work? Even the nice guys out there who have struck out repeatedly know how ineffective such advice is. There is a way for them to actually turn things around, and that requires understanding that women are attracted to certain male qualities on an instinctual level in the same way we're attracted to certain female qualities on an instinctual level.

Kindness isn't one of the top traits that actually *attracts* us. It's a quality I'd put down for an ideal kind of girlfriend or wife, it's not a quality that actually draws my attention to a woman and makes me desire her. Nice guys can really turn things around if they realize how this works.

[ak666]

@circlebill I don't quite find the point of objection here though. I'm saying being kind with the expectation or at least strong hope (strong enough to complain and become bitter if it doesn't work out) that being kind to a woman should grant you entry in between her legs is not genuine kindness.

About the case you brought up where a murderer could have more attractive qualities to a woman than a guy who is sweet to her and has romantic fantasies about her, yes, that's kind of fucked up with respect to the woman's taste. But what does that also say about the nice guy who is practically falling in love with this woman? Isn't there a problem with his taste in women as well?

[ak666]

@circlebill The way humanity in general is attracted (both sexes) is generally fucked up. Nice guys tend to be just as shallow/superficial or more than those who are succeeding in the realm of dating and romance. It's because their only experience of women is based upon gazing at them and trying eagerly to be nice to those they find attractive.

Just the other day I was helping one of these nice guys out and he pretty much demanded girls with big boobs and an hourglass figure. That's not very "nice".

In general with all the nice virgin guys out there who have been so unsuccessful in the dating realm, if you gave them a choice between an overweight, really sweet and caring woman, and a stunning beauty with an attitude, they'd go with the latter, because their taste in women is also fucked up.

Humanity's way of becoming attracted to the opposite sex is fucked up. But nice guys can improve their success if they start to become aware of how it works.

[circlebill]

Our difference of opinion is that you keep bringing up your cartoon caricature of an uncaring jerk who thinks he's entitled and claiming that's automatically what a nice guy is! I'm sorry, but THAT IS STILL A CROCK! And every time you spout that garbage, you make yourself look as stupid as a lot of women are! Choosing a man is a major judgement call! Though you might be too politically correct to say it, the cold fact of the matter is that many females (especially younger ones) simply do not possess the wisdom needed for the task! As a result, women have become FAMOUS for wasting their prime youth years being repeatedly humped and dumped by a line of jerks, douche bags, assholes, bad boys, abusers and thugs! This isn't mere opinion! This is REALITY! It's not all women, but this pattern is common! And it is not the fault of actual nice guys!

[circlebill]

Based on her asking the question, the QA sounds like a exceptionally wise woman indeed! Women's wisdom or (lack thereof) is most of the problem! Regarding women's choices, MrOracle posted in part on this thread: "Most will choose a Bad Boy over a Nice Guy because the Bad Boy's bad behavior will be judged better]". That says an awful lot! You seem to think the entire problem is all the fault of those awful nice guys that you say you're trying to help! I say you're too quick to give women a free pass for the part they play in all this! I don't give women a free pass on this! It's far too serious!

The first bomb here is that a genuine, actual nice guy who truly is a good person is automatically deemed comparable to DOG CRAP by most younger women! The second bomb is that a genuine, actual nice guy must create a FAKE THEATRICAL PERSONALITY specifically for female consumption because his true self isn't good enough for them. That's pretty damn heavy! WOW! Talk about a cynicism explosion!

[circlebill]

It actually gets worse! As typical bad boy chasing women approach the unstoppable wall of middle age, many of them suddenly develop late wisdom and become interested in a financially stable nice guy that they might use as a marriage dupe! Suddenly, the nice guys these women always rejected in their youth have become good enough even without creating a FAKE THEATRICAL PERSONALITY for female consumption! When an ACTUAL good man realizes just how flawed so many women are, he may be overcome with JUSTIFIED cynical contempt! He begins to lose his precious element of caring that is the center of every true nice guy! I'll leave it there! Peace!

[ak666]

@circlebill The cartoon caricature of an uncaring man is actually in your head, I think. I don't think I've ever brought up that a guy cannot be kind to a woman. Generally for nice guys I tend to suggest that they can be kind to women, but treat them as *equals*. Don't stand behind her shadow all the time and linger around her and try to look for ways to help her out and be nice at every possible opportunity.

It's like if you have a boy who is prone to being bullied in school, blaming the bullies won't help him to avoid being trampled over by people all his life. Yet when I tell them to respect themselves and stand up for themselves, that doesn't mean they should turn into a violent punks. It just means they should stand tall and respect themselves.

Nice guys are similar to bully victims. Their behavior is often demeaning to themselves, it's weak, not strong. Women are attracted to strength. A guy who is practically kissing a girl's feet will get stepped on.

[circlebill]

Sir! YOU are a little bit confused! You claimed, quote: "The cartoon caricature of an uncaring man is actually in your head,]" Stop being silly! YOU are the one who repeatedly described an uncaring bad person and claimed that was a nice guy! Please don't spout your nonsense to me and then try to say it's my idea!

[ak666]

@circlebill I think you're mistaken. I'm saying a guy who kisses a girl's ass while having romantic fantasies about her and feeling betrayed, e. g., when she gets a boyfriend isn't actually very nice. He's actually a major dickhead -- he's thinking with his dick while acting like a girl.

[ak666]

@circlebill He's basically a gigantic pussy, the type who cries and whines all the time. A man can be strong and kind and gentle and treats women on equal footing -- that's real respect. It's not kissing her ass while desperate for some twat.

[ak666]

@circlebill The "nice guys" I'm talking about are also gigantic hypocrites. They're a living embodiment of a double standard, since as unappealing as they are to women, they still generally won't date some overweight sweet girl. They chase after good-looking, desirable women while kissing their feet and thinking that makes them worthy of her affections. They're pathetic. The opposite of that doesn't have to be an asshole. it can be a kind, strong man -- but the keyword there is "strength". A weak, miserable, pathetic whiny type desperate for female attention is just that -- weakness. Weakness does not attract women usually.

[ak666]

@circlebill I think either you're failing to understand what "nice guy" means in a colloquial sense (it does not mean a strong, self-respecting man who is kind typically, it typically means a guy who lingers around in a girl's shadow while thinking she deserves him), or you're imagining a false dichotomy. The opposite of this type of man is not an uncaring jerk who treats women like notches on his belt.

A truly kind and gentle man can be strong, masculine, still give a woman his jacket when she's cold, still hold the door for her, still have a handkerchief for her when she cries. But he's not going to be a giant sissy who crawls underneath a woman's shadow and thinks she deserves to be with him and not all the other guys out there she might otherwise be interested in.

[circlebill]

I noticed that in this exchange, you were very careful to stay far away from any hint of female responsibility for her choices! That's where we REALLY differ!

[ak666]

@circlebill It's not a female's responsibility when a guy is almost stalking her and showering her with gifts and attention to spread her legs for him. Again I would agree it's in her decency to be courteous and gracious of the kind gestures, but she's allowed to be attracted to men of her choosing. The "nice guys" I'm describing are generally lacking most in two key areas: self-respect and manliness.

[ak666]

@circlebill The reason I don't delve into the female side and how women can often be foolishly attracted to men who treat them like cattle is that it doesn't help the nice guys out there to simply blame women.

It does help if they learn to adopt some of those masculine qualities, to stand tall and be strong-minded, confident, assertive, to treat women on equal footing and not alien creatures to be placed on a pedestal. Then the nice guys out there who really care about women and want serious relationships will have a chance to compete with some of the assholes out there, and hopefully we can see more women settling with nice men.

[ak666]

@circlebill The issue with the young generation today striking out with women is not "kindness". "Nice guy" is actually a red herring. It's softness. It's a bunch of boys who haven't learned how to be men yet. The assholes actually do a little bit better on this front, unfortunately, but that's why I want to help the nice guys out there instead of just blaming women for their choices in male partners.

[ak666]

@circlebill Your idea of a "nice guy" might be a classic gentleman, for example. That's not what people today mean by "nice guy!" The classic gentleman was strong, suave, courteous to women but knew how to lead, knew how to be confident and assertive, speak his mind, go his own way. He was strong, and such a rare man today would be prized among women.

What people mean by "nice guy" today would generally be boys who are clueless about how to lead women. In an analogical dance, they would expect the woman to lead. They follow behind her, follow her shadow, and their virtual stature is generally beneath the woman.

[circlebill]

It appears you've widened the scope of variety in men who may fall under the nice guy label! That's good! All nice guys are certainly not the silly cartoon image you've been pushing here! Most of your focus seems to be on men who in reality are clearly NOT actual nice guys at all! Part of the problem is actual, genuine nice guys getting automatically painted as those cartoon image fakes you describe! You mentioned false dichotomy! Instead of simple dichotomy, the concept of spectrum may be more fitting. There is good and evil at various degrees! In this context, good means caring about others and evil means the opposite! Since the nice guy label has multiple variations, we must recognize that there are good and bad nice guys! Your cartoon cartoon caricature nice guys would fall somewhere on the bad spectrum! True gentlemen nice guys would be somewhere on the good side of the spectrum! By and large, ALL nice guys (good and bad alike) are rejected or friend zoned by most younger women.

[ak666]

@circlebill They're friend-zoned because they universally lack qualities of attraction. I'm not painting a caricature here -- they're lacking in attractive qualities because they are *weak* individuals.

The kind guys who are getting lots of female attention don't qualify in this "nice guy" label, because they tend to be strong individuals who possess qualities that attract women.

I'm specifically talking about the types that are getting rejected by women left and right. They're clueless about the basic idea that women are attracted to men based on qualities like looks, strengths, confidence (not timidness), charm, suave, kindness can be helpful if it's a strong kind of kindness (standing tall and equal) and not a weak one (sniveling), etc.

[ak666]

@circlebill The basic attitude you have is the most suited for caricature, I think. You're making women out like these creatures who have no independent will or attraction of their own, that simply a man being sweet to her is supposed to make her choose him. You can't treat women like kindness whores -- you don't buy a woman's affections by being sweet any more than woman doesn't buy a guy's gaze for her by being sweet. I don't see any nice guys out there being rejected by the most undesirable yet sweet women out there, because they're not being sweet to those girls.

[ak666]

@circlebill If you want to date someone who looks like Jessica Alba, you have to be an attractive man. That doesn't just boil down to physical looks, it boils down to all sorts of masculine and strong qualities which often work well to attract women (charisma, confidence, charm, etc). It would be too easy if she just dated any guy who was really sweet to her. You could find endless guys who would line up and literally kiss her feet. Again, I don't see the most undesirable overweight women who never get any male attention but have a warm heart being the types to reject nice guys left and right. It's because nice guys don't go after them because they're ultimately a bunch of hypocrites.

[ak666]

@circlebill Where are the nice guys for all the most undesirable and unattractive women out there, the desperate overweight single mothers who would kill for even the stereotypical "nice guy", e. g? They're strangely absent in such scenarios, because their sweetness is not so noble. It's based upon a sexual and romantic attraction which doesn't boil down to qualities people put down on paper as making an ideal and caring wife. The hypocrisy and double standard saturates us each day, and those who wake up and learn that this is a game based on attraction can turn things around and actually get some of the women they desire.

[ak666]

@circlebill All I get from your end is that women someone shouldn't have any free will when it comes to choosing their partners, while nice guys are free to fixate on a girl and choose whomever he likes and earn her affection through mere kindness. I'm a chauvinistic type and even that seems incredibly unfair. I don't see any proposed solution from you except some implication that women should be attracted to guys simply on the basis of a guy being sweet to her. Being bitter about it doesn't change a thing -- this is a game of attraction pure and simple. Understand how women's minds work, understand what attracts them, and adopt some of those qualities -- and losers can turn into winners. It only further cements the loser status when all that's being done is whining about how women don't choose the "nice" one.

[circlebill]

The men who fall under the nice guy label have ALWAYS been a diverse group and not just smarmy weakling stereotypes! At one point you mentioned that one "nice guy" might be a "classic gentleman" type. Though the nuances involved might suggest more of a charming player-womaniser!

A very major point is the fact that many fine, decent men are routinely rejected by women specifically for showing a great deal of kindness and respect! Many people try to pretend that nice guys are only being rejected because there must be something wrong with them and start spewing nice guy cartoon image stereotypes! That's where these discussions turn into nonsense!

You claimed, quote: "The reason I don't delve into the female side and how women can often be foolishly attracted to men who treat them like cattle is that it doesn't help the nice guys out there to simply blame women." Forget blame! Nice guys need to understand the women's part in this! What triggers female mating attraction instincts?

[ak666]

@circlebill "What triggers female mating attraction instincts?"

That's the meaty part that's key! Probably among the top is "confidence", but the ones who aren't doing so well with women often misinterpret what it means. It doesn't simply mean boldly asking her on a date. Some of the 'confidence' requires kind of avoiding too much interest in a girl before going on a date (that doesn't mean being rude to her, it simply means not treating the prospect of asking her out like a critical job interview).

Each nice guy usually has a different set of issues that might lead to trouble with the opposite sex. It's usually not so easy -- I'd agree there is a broad range of "nice guys" having trouble with women.

One of the first things I tend to look for is how they do in the social realm in general -- among both men and women. Are they well-liked, popular, desirable company for both sexes? Or are they more reclusive types who have very few friends and don't navigate too well during a [...]

[ak666]

@circlebill [...] during a social event? If they're the types to sit in a corner at a party and not interact with anyone, that's generally among the first things to fix.

If they are well-liked in the social realm but considered that kind of sweet guy who everyone likes and girls tell him that he'd make a "great boyfriend" while simultaneously leaving him alone and going for another guy, usually he needs to blast up the masculinity a bit. That kind of soft and sensitive side is good to show in a relationship, it's not so good to broadcast. Again soft and sensitive is kind of a weakness when it's overdone -- women tend to be attracted to strength.

When assertiveness is lacking (ex: a guy is timid, the type to say, "It's up to you, whatever you want, oh that's not my favorite but it's nice" -- that type of guy), he needs to become more comfortable expressing his thoughts, even when others may find it disagreeable. It's better to weed out the playing field speaking your mind than [...]

[ak666]

@circlebill [...] than just saying what others want to hear.

Physical qualities and charisma and confidence kind of all go hand-in-hand. If a guy is the type to slouch and not stand tall and straight, that can kind of ward off girls (not repel them but make them fail to consider him in a sexual light). It helps in those cases if he stands taller, shoulders broad, back erect. Likewise his attitude should somehow reflect that physical posture -- a man leads women, he doesn't follow.

Likewise choosing attire that suits his physique, whatever it may be, can help a lot. And naturally if he is kind of overweight or too skinny, it does help to pump some weights and bulk up a bit (not bodybuilder level, but enough to stand tall and strong).

Wealth doesn't sexually attract women usually -- it might interest gold-diggers but wealth can provide a sense of flare and power which is a strong masculine leadership quality. A man who possesses wealth can get others to bow down, [...]

[ak666]

@circlebill [...] treat him like a VIP, and being seen in that light can genuinely attract women on a sexual level. Any position of authority can likewise do that, like being someone delivering a lecture, or a police man. These positions project power.

It's a lot of things like this -- I need to work with a real example of a nice guy to spot what he may be doing wrong and help him out and change his fortune, but I've done this for a number of friends with success.

One last thing: nice guys tend to fixate on girls too much and ask them out way too late, after they've already developed major feelings for them. That's a key to a broken heart over a girl the guy hasn't even dated yet -- he fell in love with her from afar, partly with his imagination filling in all the blanks. It's better to save the strong feelings for the date (if it's going well), and ask girls out sooner instead of trying to charm them for months first.

[ak666]

@circlebill Again ideally I work with a nice guy directly. If you have one in mind, I can give him pointers, look at his picture, suggest fashion tips on how to cultivate his image, social tips on how to network, how to achieve genuine confidence 24/7 instead of just occasional courage, etc. I'm far from a master but I've done this for multiple male friends of mine.

One was so seemingly hopeless that he actually broadcasted on social media that he was a lonely desperate guy who loved Star Wars with a scrawny figure and already losing all his hair at the age of 20. I helped him and now he's married with a child on the way.

I can work some miracles if I know the guy closely, and the only reason I take a harsh love treatment for nice guys is that they need to kind of stop paying attention to what women say they want, what Hollywood romance comedies suggest, and start paying closer attention to what actually attracts them to a man in the first place.

[ak666]

@circlebill Generally the first and foremost thing a nice guy needs is just a change in outlook. There are too many nice sayings out there like, "Just be yourself and you'll find that special someone." Even a lot of nice guys are starting to hate sayings like this, because they know from experience that it doesn't work. These sayings suggest just going around stumbling through life, perhaps occasionally bumping into a girl the nice guy finds beautiful, thinking she's the one, and getting devastated when she has eyes for another.

So the ultimate thing I'd suggest to a nice guy is forget sayings like this. Make the change, look in the mirror, try to identify and fix whatever isn't drawing women his way. There usually is an obvious flaw or two with most nice guys -- they're not universally shared except for the fact that their outlook towards how women are attracted is misaligned with reality.

[circlebill]

In a primitive environment, a male may be called upon to show his active physical strength. He might defeat an invading warrior in mortal combat! Or he might slay a dangerous beast! A female who witnesses such feats will be naturally drawn to men of REAL STRENGTH! There's not much primitive mortal combat or beast slaying going on today in a civilized society! So how can a man show strength that can trigger female mating attraction instincts? This is part of why sports players do well with females! But what if you don't participate in sports? This is where female hormone driven mating decisions must be understood! This basically comes down to staged theatrics for female consumption! If a man cannot show genuine, REAL STRENGTH, he can show contrived FAKE STRENGTH by adopting somewhat of a pushy, arrogant, loud mouth attitude! This is enough to trigger female mating attraction. ACTING LIKE AN ARROGANT ASS IS IMPORTANT! Every bad boy, jerk and douche bag character has an asshole act!

[ak666]

@circlebill The type of strength I'm talking about is not physical in nature (though some level of physical strength also helps). It's also not courage under fire.

It's the type of mental fortitude you have that allows you to act rationally instead of emotions, to be level-headed during emotional conflicts -- the guy who resolves and deescalates situations instead of getting into endless arguments.

Arrogant types don't have that kind of maturity usually, but what they have going in spades is the type of confidence I'm talking about. Since they don't give two cents about a woman's worth and lack any respect for her, they can ask her on a date and not even care if she turns him down.

That is an attractive quality that nice guys can also get (again my suggestion to ask women out sooner before falling for them).

Nice guys will never be able to be assholes so I'm suggesting a path for them, giving their kind heart, that works.

[ak666]

@circlebill The nice guys who have physical strength and courage in dangerous physical situations are a rarity. That was the type I used to be before I changed -- I had absolutely zero fear of death and was a stunt devil and adrenaline junkie, but I had a lot of fear of women and was a tad too sensitive emotionally. For me the part of manhood I missed was not found in macho films -- it was found in lots of real-life emotional situations. And learning that definitely helped tremendously with attracting women (now happily married).

[ak666]

@circlebill If you know a nice guy of this type, like a veteran soldier who still is having a hard time with the ladies, usually the problem with those types is overly romanticized ideas of courtship (which usually deprives them of the experience they seek out), social skills, and confidence of a kind specifically related to women. These types of nice guys usually have a very easy time making male friends with their gung-ho attitude, but a very hard time getting women because they suddenly become very soft and romantic there.

[ak666]

@circlebill On the bright side those types of nice guys who are very physically fit, don't fear danger, will jump into a fire without a second thought to rescue people, etc. -- but suddenly turn into a mush and shy teddy bear around women -- those are the easiest types to fix. They already have a ton of qualities that attract women, it's just that their approach needs some tweaks and tuning. Those types can actually make a huge turnover with the right adjustments to approach and confidence.

[ak666]

@circlebill One last thing (apologies for lengthiness) -- what you said about manhood is a key topic. It's something a lot of young boys of this generation misunderstand.

There is a type of manhood that is all about brawn and courage -- the kind of manliness a common foot soldier would need to face the enemy.

But that's not the most useful kind for attraction and relationships. The kind of manliness that the general of that army commands is going to be far more important -- the leader, the negotiator, the diplomat, the one who knows how to be a bigger man. That kind of manliness is one of the key things a lot of young boys are lacking today (I tend to think part of it has to do with the absence of strong father figures in homes), and it's still very practically applicable in everyday situations.

[circlebill]

Obviously, one should not be over the top with asshole theatrics! But that's the missing element for nice guys! Of course all the standard common sense items must be observed! You want to look presentable, with good hygiene, crack a few jokes, be playfully disrespectful! And very important, one must not care too much about any one female!

All the crap most females say about nice guys needing to be introspective and working to improve themselves is basically a CROCK! Genuine nice guys who truly care about others must actually LOWER themselves to become more acceptable to foolish younger females! One thing I find really funny is when some men master acting like an arrogant ass to impress females, they actually THINK they are superior men!

[ak666]

@circlebill Actually acting like an arrogant ass is better than what most nice guys are doing. I'm not sure why you're saying nice guys need to lower themselves for female attention -- that's completely wrong! They need to raise themselves, stand taller, have self-respect. No one in life respects you, women are no exception, if you don't respect yourself first.

Lowering yourself socially doesn't help in any situation. At a company you end up staying at the bottom if you let people trample all over you. In the dating game you end up working towards the bottom if you lower yourself. If you act like someone who shines people's shoes for living, people end up sticking their foot out and wanting you to shine their shoes. You don't earn respect that way.

Assholes are at least a little better here at this. They know how to work the social ladder. You might have similar complaints about workplaces -- run often by assholes instead of great leaders.

[ak666]

@circlebill There are two ways to raise yourself socially: the harder, good way which is to become a confident leader, respected among peers, admired among all, display strength, accountability, firm decision-making.

And then there's the asshole way which is to be arrogant, lacking accountability, using others for your personal gain, etc.

Both ways work. Unfortunately the assholes are winning. But the nice guys can fix their mess with women if they learn how to go the good way.

[circlebill]

I think you may have misunderstood my comment about nice guys "lowering" themselves for female attention! Let me spell it out for you! Some of the genuine nice guys are already truly magnificent REAL MEN who are actually beyond the childishness of putting on airs! When such a man stoops to creating and projecting a FAKE personality to impress a silly female who wouldn't recognize a truly good man if she fell over him, that may be construed as lowering one's self! Conversely, when people mature to the point where they base decisions on wisdom instead of instinct, that is truly raising one's self!

Climbing a social register type ladder is a whole different thing! I hope that clears the misunderstanding!

[ak666]

@circlebill I see -- I get you. But a nice guy doesn't have to "fake" it. The quality of confidence does require some level of detachment from the girl, but it does not mean the respect has to be lacking.

I would say a nice guy really screws his chances if he falls romantically for a girl before he even asked her on a date, if only because those strong feelings he acquired for her will show up ever-so-subtly in the form of insecurity.

One of the things you might have noticed is that we tend to get more female attention easily sometimes when we're married. I'd say one of the reasons for that is confidence. Since we're not seeking any female attention, we give off a sense of confidence -- the same kind of confidence that an asshole has in common, in that we're not trying too hard to lure a woman's interest.

[ak666]

@circlebill If a man is not so interested in a woman romantically, it's easy to be casual and easy-going and treat her like an equal. The inequality tends to happen when a nice guy ends up falling too much for a girl before she even agreed with him to go on a date. So that's usually the number one thing I advise universally to all nice guys: stop spending so much time being so nice and ask the girl out already.

[circlebill]

I can see a little better where you are coming from on the practical dating aspects on this! I tend to look at it from a much deeper level than mere dates! We humans stand somewhere between our ancestral primitive animal nature and true civilized humanity! It is important to have some basic understanding of the two!

When a normal, healthy man sees females, he notices her face, her skin, her curves and how she walks. This is man's natural animal instinct seeking a fit vessel for procreation. Should a man run off and marry a physically attractive drug addicted hooker just because his natural instinct gives the green light? That would be quite ridiculous! Any so called "man" who made such a serious decision on instinct alone, would be an extreme fool at best!

[circlebill]

Now, let's look at the other side! When a normal, healthy woman sees males, she instinctively looks for signs of active strength! A woman notices a male who acts in a pushy, aggressive, arrogant, loud-mouth manner! Should she run off and marry this man just because her natural mating attraction instinct gives a green light? Many women have made disastrous choices in men by foolishly relying completely on instinct alone! Any "woman" who makes her mating choice based on instinct alone is obviously a gigantic FOOL!

A more advanced, more evolved human does NOT choose a mate by natural instinct alone! How much respect can you have for anybody who chooses on instinct alone? What does it do to a society when women en masse are allowed to make mating choices by instinct alone? Questions like this are a little too heavy for a GAG thread! I'm glad you are aware that there is more variety to men under the nice guy label than cartoon stereotypes! Peace!

[ak666]

@circlebill "A woman notices a male who acts in a pushy, aggressive, arrogant, loud-mouth manner!"

This is where I tend to disagree a bit. I feel like this is the ultimate caricature of what women are presumed to be pursuing all the time.

We can't erase millions of years of evolutionary behavior but humans were most likely social creatures, living in small populaces for a large portion of the period of evolved behavior, trying to survive. "Strength" comes in a variety of factors than mere brutishness. It's why I don't think the skills necessary to work upwards in the social hierarchy is not necessarily *that* different from the skills necessary to attract the opposite sex.

Humans are perfectly capable of overriding instinctive behaviors, but attraction is largely instinctive. A male might be able to rationalize that marrying a hooker or a porn star is generally a bad idea, but might still marry a woman who makes a horrible mother for their children. We're still not *that* rational.

[circlebill]

I'm not sure what you are trying to argue at this point! It's pretty much established that most younger females are not fit to make sensible mating choices because they rely heavily on mating attraction instincts that are triggered by men who "act like an arrogant ass"! That's not something to argue about! It is plain reality!

Your entire focus here is on men adapting themselves to suit female preferences. That your bottom line! On the other hand, I am concerned with the end results that female mating choices are having on society. I am concerned that female instinctive preferences toward various bad people and even convicted felons has a destructive effect on communities and could even bring down the society! Female mating choice and other rights has been a brief experiment in the latter part of human history! I'm concerned that the experiment may have been a huge mistake! Your focus doesn't seem to extend to such matters! And that's fine! So what is there to argue?

[ak666]

@circlebill Yes, that's exactly what I'm suggesting, that men who are down on their luck with women try to adapt some qualities that instinctively attract women, which are also qualities that will tend to help them in all areas of life (career, making friends, etc).

I'm also just as confused by your argument, since it almost sounds like you want to undo millions of years of evolutionary behavior. The suggestion on your end seems to be for women to start choosing men on a rational basis even if those instincts of being attracted aren't there.

If that's the case, a smart woman choosing a mate should choose the richest man she can find, not pick the first man who is simply exceptionally kind to her. That would make gold-diggers the smartest women out there when it comes to choosing mates, since they're ignoring their instincts and choosing an unattractive husband rationally who can provide them a lifestyle of comfort and luxury and security.

[ak666]

@circlebill [...] that are triggered by men who "act like an arrogant ass" [...]

But this part I'd say is wrong -- it's the caricature I see. A high school prom king isn't necessarily an egotistical ass. He could actually be a genuinely nice person in spite of being attractive to a lot of girls his age.

This idea that women are only going for jerks is often a caricature painted by the rejects. A man can be good-looking but not conceited. He can be physically strong but not violent. He can be confident but not arrogant. Men who are popular among the opposite sex come in a wide range of characters -- to oversimplify here is to paint a caricature.

The "rejects" (I think this is a better term than "nice guy") often paint this caricature that women are only attracted to jerks. They're quick to generalize, quick to over-simplify. The good news for rejects is that while popular men come in a wide variety, they do have some common characteristics. Adopting those will improve their odds.

[circlebill]

Evolutionary behaviour in women's choices? I don't think you even realize what you are saying? Evolutionary behaviour? You've gone off the deep end into delusional lala land! Please get your feet back on the ground! Evolutionary behaviour? You shouldn't parrot a term like that without thinking what you're actually saying! To even TOUCH that word means addressing extremely huge time frames! Before the advent of "civilization", female mating choice simply didn't exist! Do you really think prehistoric cave men had to work on their "game" to get women? Rape culture was REAL in those days! Women decided NOTHING! If a cave man saw a female he wanted sexually he didn't asking the cave woman for permission! THERE'S your evolution! History is littered with examples of conquering tribes, Vikings, pirates, Muslim invaders etc TAKING women by force! Even the bible makes mention of quite literally "TAKING" women as wives by force! That's the REAL EVOLUTION!

[circlebill]

Do you even know what marriage tradition really comes from? What's a "best man" in marriage tradition? If you don't know, you should look it up! In ancient times, a young man might plot to actually kidnap a female of his choosing from a different tribe! This is a dangerous proposition! If the female struggles and resists strongly, the kidnapper could get caught and possibly killed by the female's family and tribe! In order to make good on his kidnap venture, the young man needs help! That's where his "Best Man" comes in! Together, the two men can carry off the girl even if she struggles! There's your evolution!

The term "Honeymoon" comes from the female kidnap practice! After kidnapping a "wife", the man sets about raping her repeatedly for a month with the specific intention of impregnating her! As a pregnancy develops, the female becomes less and less able to attempt escape from her capture! That's the brief origin of marriage and honeymoon traditions! Women's choice is a new thing!

[circlebill]

I think its really funny when people get the delusion that their their theatrical presentations tailored to female preferences actually DEFINE manhood! THEY DO NOT! I obviously exaggerated the notion of a bad boy jerk "acting like an ass". But no matter how it's fine tuned, packaged or spun, it is what it is! I learned about it and did it successfully BEFORE YOU WERE EVEN BORN! That's why it's so funny when you spout that nice guy stereotype cartoon image and pretend you have some mysterious wisdom on getting girls! I KNOW that its as simple as acting like an arrogant ass! Before I tried it I didn't believe that women could possibly be that stupid! Any man can be a pushy, selfish ass who doesn't give a damn about others! I read a case history about a man who was married 5 times and he beat all 5 of them. 5th wife complained about him cheating on her with one of his ex-wives! And that's why he beat his 5th wife! I have long noticed that abusive men "act like an ass" and are never alone!

[circlebill]

We really have nothing to argue here! And it would probably better If you stopped trying to project your half baked notions on me when you don't know me from Adam! Get control of your ego! You've really no idea how foolish your know-it-all attitude looks to someone old enough to be your father! I'm at a very different place in life from you! I have an adult daughter! So, I naturally think about angles that are outside your narrow frame of reference! Many men will not try to become the fine tuned fake personality you recommend! Why should they go to all the trouble when "acting like an ass" is enough to make the difference? You might think of things like that sometimes when you have a daughter!

I like to study about people! That's my hobby! In my studies, I have noticed that every primitive culture has a more organized system of getting men and women together than the supposedly advanced west! In this, we have little more than chaos! We have a decadent society in decline! Peace!

[ak666]

@circlebill It's not an arrogant ass though that's sometimes an image that can help with someone who is too meek, timid, desperate, too prone to putting women on a pedestal to balance things out.

Since you've been around much longer than me, you might also notice than women seem to go for gay men, married men, older men, arrogant men. What do all these have in common that guys who shower girls with kindness do not?

They have some degree of confidence. They're not desperate for female attention. And they're not all assholes.

I'm trying to understand where your anger from women comes from. Do you have a very nice and gentle and meek son who is having trouble in the love field? Are you actually like a 61-year old virgin? What's your deal?

[ak666]

@circlebill "You might think of things like that sometimes when you have a daughter!"

How could someone as clueless as you about women suggest something like this? If you ever even had a clue about the female side (which you don't, obviously), you would see that a pretty girl can attract "nice guys" like moths to a flame.

And if you even knew a few women who actually dated some of these "nice guys", you'd find horror stories that some of them turned into huge babies in the relationship.

Anyway, I recommend you stop trying to study women from the outside and actually try to get to know some, you know? Stop formulating all these ideas of women and what attracts them as a reject.

"I like to study people" -- blah, what a joke you are. Pathetic. You're the one that actually needs to try having a daughter or two. Then again you'd probably try to make her marry the first desperate guy who is sweet to her against her will.

[circlebilll]

Awwww! The big fake "man" had to insult me and then run and hide behind an account block like a coward! Ha, ha, ha, ha,!!! How manly! What a big Joke!

At this point, you've exposed yourself as just one more cowardly, arrogant ass with a big mouth! And it's nothing new under the sun! It's amazing! Some men go around acting like an arrogant ass to impress foolish females who don't know any better and think the same silly act will impress men! YOU ARE A FAKE! All you are promoting is putting on a silly FAKE act! This way, foolish women get to choose between a FAKE asshole or a REAL asshole! Get over yourself! Anyone can act like as ass! Trying to spin it and package it as something else is just pathetic! You can put on an act as much as you want! But eventually, the truth comes out! It came out right here on GAG! Ho hum! Just another asshole! Just another big mouth! Nothing new! Another silly baby "man" had a tantrum and ran away! Yeah, nothing new!

[ak666]

@circlebilll Oh nice, creating multiple accounts to keep whining about women's choice in men. I blocked you because you're just completely unreasonable. And still completely clueless about women. As said, try having a daughter some day, or maybe in the next life.

Your "studies" of people obviously boil down to being rejected by the opposite gender and then formulating opinions that women only date arrogant assholes. Your hyperbole just flies in the face of contradiction, as though all women out there with boyfriends or husbands chose them for their arrogance.

Anyway, you're the classic "nice guy". And, almost as if proving my point, you're not very nice. Your whole proposal is to strip away female independence. Thanks, very nice of you towards women.

[ak666]

@circlebilll Oh, and grow up please. I never thought I'd be saying that to a 61-year old. Get out there, meet people, it's not too late to fall in love with a woman or at least start closely befriending some. Try to balance out your perspective. As you claimed before, you like to "study people". Well, your studies are seriously lacking when it comes to the opposite sex.

[howardque]

This is a phenomenal take!

Nice guys are nice/good guys. By their very description someone you call nice is indeed nice in the same way someone you call beautiful is really beautiful and saying you had fun means you had fun right?

It's easy to tell if someone is genuinely nice, their actions, their persona, their vibe and how they make you feel. I know a girl who makes me feel great, who is really nice.

In the same way, I feel I'm a confident and nice guy.

Someone claiming to be nice or talented, but not actually being that, then that person is not said adjective. Most of the time though this is a guy who isn't the sweet/nice guy.

I can't really say much more without simply writing your take word for word. A nice guy being nice and feeling a little sad does not stop making him nice ppl!!

Just read this take, it's great!

[circlebill]

It is an excellent take for the serious questions asked! Many people on GAG are very quick to pigeonhole nice guys as some kind of stereotyped jerk character who thinks he's entitled to sex just for existing! It's really sick! i. e. That man's being very kind and respectful! He must be a creepy pervert!

[howardque]

@circlebill Very good point. A nice guy is a nice guy. Simples.

The real "jerk" would be the douchebag who isn't being nice, yet the guy who sadly is too often rewarded with sex because apparantly "they know what they are getting with him". The world we live in lol

[ObscuredBeyond]

Many women are so full of hate because of that one jerk who failed to meet her expectations, or because of that dad that walked out on her, that they will use any twisted logic to justify how they can continue to be so spiteful to all men, while still preying on men they might be able to use for sex/money/whatever.

The Devil knows how to target the reward center in your brain. So these women become literally addicted to their vices. And they will cling to any excuse. Men who grow too bitter about women follow a similar dark path of twisted logic. And it's an easy temptation: Men and women screwing each other over soon fill the world with bitterness, until everyone has a grudge - and a thousand excuses for it.

[StewieRH]

In my experience:

Every guy I've met who has seriously referred to himself as a "nice guy" has actually turned out to be a total dickhead.

Out of the actual nice guys I know, I've never heard one of them once refer to himself as a "nice guy" even though he is.

I don't think there's a reason to say it really. It's up to others to decide whether you're nice or not and if you truly are nice, there's no need to say it anyway because it's evident within itself.

[genuinlysensitive]

So they lied to you? That sucks being lied to :( So what if they lied to you about being single, would you then rant and rave about how you "hate all single guys"? Or would you say that you hate liars? So the real question is, why do so many women rail against "nice guys" instead of "liars"?

[StewieRH]

@genuinlysensitive I never said "I hate nice guys" or anything of the sort, I fail to see when I did. All I was doing was writing about my experience with such things and in my experience all the self proclaimed nice guys I've spoke to *so far* have all turned out to be utter dickheads.

You are right though, I don't like liars either

[genuinlysensitive]

But then they aren't nice guys, they are lying about being nice. So they are liars, NOT nice guys.

[Amuro]

The "nice guy" is basically created by the internet it's stupid don't listen to it. List like these do not explain the actions of people so any guy reading this should ignore it as BS. Any women reading this shouldn't let a list on the internet dictate how they think a guy may act or his intentions.

www.girlsaskguys.com/.../q2112691-was-i-wrong-to-ask-for-the-money-back

[doetrioux]

I agree, guys (or gals) who blatantly state that they are "nice" are most likely lying, or putting up a facade.

Frankly "Nice Guy" is so overused. It kind of makes me want to cringe. A nice guy is generally perceived as a shy guy, in my opinion, who really doesn't know the ins and outs of a relationship. He tends to be more selfless and will at some point be needy, and that can harm the relationship.
Or you get guys who claim they are "nice" and are simply doing so to get into your pants.

But a true guy, is someone who doesn't say anything. Who is in the middle. Treats you right, and you can see him for him. There is no facade.

So please don't generalize.

[rjroy3]

a lot of girls have started generalizing "nice guys" into a specific group of men that are being disingenuous about who they are. Some of these guys are only acting nice because they think they have to and some guys are only nice, because they're too weak to be who they really are. Either one isn't really nice. Those are the nice guys these girls are referring to usually. To make their point, they rename real nice guys something else.

But there really are girls that truly believe no nice guys exist, because they assume (probably with some good reasoning) that all the men around them are fake.

[Anonymous]

What it comes down to is a lot of women, not all tho, are attracted to bad boys and aren't attracted to good guys. So when questioned about this, many females place the blame on the male population and say well that nice guy is really a piece of shit. Many women also string along nice guys and justify turning them down by saying they feel too entitled due to being nice and are really jerks. And convince themselves that the jerks are actually the nice guy. I see and hear about this all the time.
I'm a nice guy, my intentions are good and genuine and unfortunately I keep getting placed into this stereotype by default.

[Oshosh01]

In my case this is true. Any guy I have gone out with who says they are nice are not. It's kind of a way for them to not feel guilty about treating the female horribly when they do. I had 2 guys tell me they are not nice and they were the best boyfriends in the world! It just didn't work out. The recent one had to move and I couldn't leave my family due to serious issues. He was amazing, but would say he's not a good person. The other didn't work out because we went away to two different colleges and I was insecure about the situation. To me sometimes what happens nice guys get burned and then become mean.

[skykidx1]

I never really announce that am a nice guy but if anyone ask who i am asa person. I would say a bit of a nerd with a kind heart who loves video games&anime yet loves trying new things like camping, paint ball etc. But i can understand why most guys are bitter some women have a way of changing a bad for the worse... which almost happened to me after a bad break up but i realized i love who i am and i could give 2 shits with any women or girl has to say here about me. But yea some nice guys just want sex while i want even kiss a girl unless i like her and won't evem sleep with a girl unless am in love with her... my past shaped me into the guy i am today. But am still learning from my mistake like 1 dont tell a women everything or she will get bored of you 2. Dont be too honest with her parents it won't end will truest me. 3. Never ever tell a girl all the nice things your little sister boyfriend does for or you'll never hear the end of it lol.

[EnigmaStigma]

In a nutshell, nice guys want the same things players want but lack the confidence to go about it the same way so they calculate how to get it by acting "nice." Ever had that "nice" guy friend who suddenly comes on strong when you've had too much to drink? Or how about the "nice" guy who suddenly turns into a dick when he realizes he's been friendzoned?

[loveisbeautiful]

Nope, I haven't.

[EnigmaStigma]

Then you must not date or hang out with many of these "nice guys" you're defending.

[loveisbeautiful]

I'm not defending anyone, I'm just trying to understand this whole thing. It doesn't make sense to me and the way that I think or I see things.