How would you feel if you were sharing your struggle and your SO responded like this?

[williael]

I had an illness that affects my voice. I can talk now; most hoarseness is gone. I can't sing yet without making it worse. I am in 2 singing groups. There are 3 practices & 1 performance this week. I was saying to my boyfriend on the phone that I hate not being able to sing & that I really want to, but I am afraid of hurting my voice. I said I feel bad for missing practices when the group really needs singers & we're learning all these new songs. Suddenly he says, "Okay, we ALL KNOW you want to sing. I already know you feel bad but I guess if you HAVE to tell me every time, that's fine!" I had not told anyone else but him, so I don't know where the "we all know" came from. I could tell that he wasn't in the mood to sympathize, so I kept it friendly & said, "Ok, well, I guess I'll go now." He started laughing & said, "You're so funny!" I try not to get triggered. The day before, he said he wants me to open up to him more. He said, "I don't know how you feel unless you tell me." We had counseling to help with our communication. He called this morning and says in a snarky voice, "Anything you want to discuss? Were you up ALL NIGHT ANALYZING everything?" Then he reminded me of what the counselor said: to say "Can we talk about this at a later time?" I said, "If you know to do that, why didn't you, then?" He said, "That was my way of saying it." I have asked him multiple times to be direct instead of the passive-aggressive comments. He does it to other people too. If it bothers me, he says I'm too sensitive or "you just hold on to everything." He says to tell him if he makes me feel bad but when I do try it only ends up with him telling me I shouldn't feel that way. It's frustrating & seems impossible to solve. Sometimes he says, "Oh great, you're going to be sad again." This was after people we know have died. I listen to him even if he talks about the same work problems over & over. His requirement seems to be for me to pretend his snarky comments never happened.

[SteveSmith1985]

I am so glad that you two are in counselling already. You DO need a third party to help explain to this guy that the way he is treating you is unacceptable.

I think that you hit the nail on the head:

"is requirement seems to be for me to pretend his snarky comments never happened."

Yes. That is evidently what he expects. But that's clearly not an expectation he has any right to.

This guy is being mean. Just mean. This is beyond snarky (although there's a snarky character to it... it's meaner than that).

It's like he is going out of his way to belittle your feelings. Or going out of his way to show contempt for you or something. But the nature of this bothers me in a way I can't quite put my finger on.

I think it's really really wrong for someone to treat their partner that way. I am a little concerned that he may not be as committed to counselling as would be ideal. But this man needs somebody who he'll "hear," to explain to him that he's being a fucking asshole to you.

I hope he is seriously willing to work on things. Because this is some bullshit. You don't need a relationship where you're treated like that. It's uncalled for. Everyone gets in bad moods. Everyone can be snarky. But this is way more than that. And where's the goddamn apology? If you DO act like an asshole usually you come to realize it after a while. This guy seems to be under the illusion that the way he's acting is alright. You need to undeceive-his-ass real-quick. One way or another.

[williael]

Thank you for answering. I need to clarify that we WERE in counseling with our pastor, who had told my SO to his face, "You can do what you want & go your own way, but it's on your head if you choose to reject the woman God brought you!!!" I'll call my SO "MD." MD said he got a lot out of the few weeks of counseling and that it helped him see a lot, but it didn't help me much. The pastor ended up thinking we were fine. In the counseling, I was afraid to speak a whole lot about anything negative in front of MD, so the pastor never really heard it all. I wanted the counseling because of this very communication pattern, but I never learned how to bring up issues of concern without getting a backlash. I feel like I know the tools to use, but they don't work with him. And I'm afraid it's too deeply ingrained in him.
We can go a long time without incidents like this happening, and it's great. But one incident like this erases the good stuff for me. I appreciate your reaffirming comments. It helps to know that someone else can see it, not just me.

[SteveSmith1985]

That's heartbreaking to tell you the truth!

I'm really sorry that the counselling was both in the past, and unhelpful to you.

It doesn't really count as couples councelling if you felt unable to speak-up and have your side of things heard. That must have been extremely frustrating. To be told that everything was fine... when it's not at all fine.

I think the one silver-lining though, is that, for HIM it was actually a positive experience. That to me, means he is more likely to be open to the idea of couples counselling going forward.

I don't know what your situation is (benefits-wise, financially etc) but it's hard not to tell you that you need couple's counselling. Real, actual, professional couples counselling. If that is at all possible for you, in terms of being a practical possibility than that is 100% what you need.

Your Pastor, I'm sure, is an excellent man, who has probably legitimately helped other couples in your congregation with their marital difficulties. But he is not equipped to help you with your particular relationship issue. He just isn't. Even his lack of being able to forsee (nor notice) that you WEREN'T going to feel comfortable to be open about everything in front of MD. A real actual trained professional therapist/counsellor etc is going to be a whole different experience. Usually it would be a combination of time talking to you alone, to him alone, and to both of you together.

But, I really think it's worth trying if that's at all possible. Because otherwise I don't know how this is going to ever change. It does seem like it's probably deeply-ingrained. But... I don't think it's something so deeply ingrained that it can't be changed (with a fair bit of work and professional help).

You just... seem like a very nice, reasonable, kindhearted woman. Just... like a very unobjectionable, pleasant regular woman. Definitely a good woman.

[SteveSmith1985]

It's just not right that you should have to put up with being treated like that from someone you love. Even if it's not all the time. It's just so gratuitous. It's just totally unwarranted meanness. And it seems like it's fairly random as to when it comes out as well. That's a pretty messed-up thing for you to have to just accept. I hope one way or another you don't have to long-term. I think if you can, a counsillor will help him recognize his bullshit as being bullshit. That's what he needs. Someone to get through to him to knock some sense back into him. He also would be well to learn to apologize afterwards, if he just can't keep himself from being a jerk in the first place.

I definitely see it too. I hope this is something that changes for you. 🙂

[williael]

I burst into tears when I read your kind words to me. God knows I'm trying my best, and that my love is real. We have been together for a long time. I had some counseling with a professional two years ago when I decided I couldn't handle this on my own. I decided to walk away. MD has taken great strides. He is all in. But as you said, the random, unexpected words are so damaging to me and to us. I think HE thinks he's being nice, because he probably really wants to say, "shut up, I'm sick of hearing it!" I didn't think MD would go for counseling with anyone but Pastor. He respects Pastor; they are both African-American and from a tough background, and of course, both men. If this were just a difference between men and women or between the black and white worlds, we could come to an adjustment, maybe. But it's more than that. It's more than a disagreement or a straightforward problem. It's the need to not just say something, but to put a shaming spin on it, to use words to make someone feel bad. And then to shame me for being hurt by the shaming. The other problem (that my counselor was trying to help me with) is this: why do I accept this treatment? I know what love can do. It can heal. It can heal trauma and all kinds of wounds. I haven't figured out why I don't care for myself like I care for others. My counselor wanted me to listen to myself and to find out what is good for me in a relationship instead of only what the other person wants.
Also, he apologized many times a day to his ex-wife during his marriage, and he has said that he'll never go back to being that person again. He may think there's too much at stake to apologize. And I do think he thinks the situation called for his mean words. I am so sad that this is how it's going, because I had hope that this aspect of us would get better.

[SteveSmith1985]

I think that you and I should have a chat. It would be ideal to chat over DM if you feel comfortable doing so. If not, we can keep going back and forth here. Just let me know which. 🙂

I end up talking to a lot of people on here, who are in truly awful hearbreaking sometimes very serious situations. Just gut-wrenching sometimes.

Although this may not be as serious as say, a case where a husband is beating the shit out of his wife, and she's afraid he'll kill her if she leaves...(and also... she knows it's wrong, but she really dos love him and desn't want to leave just yet). Your situation really really gets to me.

One thing you wrote bugged the heck outta me:

"The other problem (that my counselor was trying to help me with) is this: why do I accept this treatment?"

I am no expert at all. I'm just a dude. But I end up talking to a whole lot of girls and women in abusive relationships. Some are physical abuse, but... a lot are emotional abuse with no violence. Even that can take on many different forms and variations.

I am generally pretty-quick to condemn behavior as "abusive" (I'm usually right... but I do kinda have a mental-hair-trigger in that regard). I am not even sure I would classify what's happening in your relationship as "abusive" (although it's awful, and wrong, and unjustifiable and needs to change). There just isn't the same manipulation/emotional blackmail element to this that I associate with emotional abuse in its various forms. (again... I am NOT any kind of expert).

But what you said about wondering why you put up with being treated this way...

That is a hugely complex question that takes a while to untangled. There is a lot there.

But... I need you to understand that... it's not... as simple and straightforward as you're thinking.
Not at all!

[SteveSmith1985]

You're thinking about it so logically. You're thinking: "I know I don't deserve this, yet here I am putting up with it again. I must be weak, or stupid. Otherwise I wouldn't allow this to happen. I know better, so why am I tolerating this"

That is... not anywhere close to what's happening there. Not in any way.

If there is one thing about women in abusive situations (from the most extreme to the 'mildest'). None of them are stupid, or weak. They may have been half-broken by someone's mistreatment, but they are not staying in that relationship because they are stupid, or weak. It's usually not even a simple matter of being physically scared to leave their abusive partner.

It's the emotional bonds. It's the fact that they still feel they love the person who (some of the time) treats them so horribly. I've seen it happen to girls I've known well. It's scary to see how quickly someone's thinking can become twisted into (not only accepting) but often defending and justifying the abuse. But it's not that they don't know deep down that it's wrong. It's not that they cannot understand what you're saying when you tell someone "he's beating the shit outta you. You don't deserve that. You should leave him". They are in some serious denial sometimes, but really, they are always well aware that it's wrong to allow themselves to be treated that way. So why do women in abusive situations not leave? Because they love him. That's why. They love him so much that they'll twist their thinking around to justify staying in a crazy situation... because they don't want to lose that person so badly.

It's not stupidity or weakness, but ultimately love and hope that keeps someone from walking out of a situation where you're being mistreated.

[SteveSmith1985]

That doesn't mean that it's OK to stay in a situation where you're being abused. Not at all. But it's important to know that it's Love and Hope, not stupidity or weakness at the root of why you've allowed yourself to be treated how he treats you.

Is the counselling you go to also with your Pastor? Or is with someone different.

I do understand what you mean about MD being a tough black dude who respects this particular Pastor in a way that isn't going to apply to someone else. My dad's a black dude from a rough background too. I can appreciate what you're saying there.

The other thing that stood out, was what you mentioned about how MD used to be with his ex-wife.

It sounds like his behavior is DEFINITELY in reaction to his having been so different with her. He's got some serious trauma there relating to... I'm not sure exactly... but that's such a key to HIM understanding why he is doing this to you.

Would it possibly help, if you were to somehow... say to him, exactly what you just said to me here? Like copy and paste this and e-mail it to him, or print it out and read it to him or something?

I just feel like if he could see/hear EXACTLY what you said to me here... and had a real window into your thoughts and feelings with regards to how he's been treating you... I just can't see how that wouldn't help get through to him. I just cannot imagine him reading that... without (at least) understanding just what a problem this is. It would break his heart to really hear the details of how he's making you feel. I don't love you. I don't even know you. This had a huge impact on ME. Surely your honest words here would have one on him as well. Just a suggestion.

So either shoot me a DM or reply here. Either way. 🙂

[williael]

1. I think it's emotional abuse. Even though I want so much to think it's not, it is. It feels like abuse to me.
2. My counselor was through Better Help, and he was a professional.
3. I have no doubt he's been traumatized, first by his dad and resultant family dynamics, and then by his wife. I think on some level, he chose a violent, angry woman because it felt familiar. His mom was great; his dad was not.
4. I understand how he is and why he's that way, but I want to know if it will ever get better. When will my need for emotional safety be met? I have done all I can to make sure he feels emotionally safe. Will he ever do the same for me? How can he do the same if he never lived in emotional safety before?