Me a year ago:
Me now:
Still the same person.. And the physical could change again, but it will STILL be the same me π€·πΌββοΈ
Everyone is different, so there is no way to generalize.
When it comes to physical looks, I think it depends on a number of factors. Mainly:
- A person's goals and values. Are they just interested in sex? Starting a family? An emotional/intellectual connection for a committed, long-term relationship?
- Age. Young people tend to be attracted to young people. I can't see them being into wrinkles or gray hair. And guys who are interested in starting families wouldn't be, either, because youthful-looking women signal fertility. But, age aside, when it comes to facial features and body shape, again, different guys have different tastes. And a lot of guys truly DO value emotional/intellectual connection more than physical appearance.
Up past my mid-20s, my physical ideal was girls who 'looked' like they were in high school, not that I wanted to date high school girls once I had left high school, myself. I'll give an example. I went to a concourse d'elegance car show in Laguna Beach with a friend whose dad had entered a car in the competition. There were going to be Playboy bunnies there and I was excited to see them because I subscribed to Playboy and thought the girls in the photos represented the ideal female form. At the show, we went over to where the bunnies in their costumes were doing meet and greet. I was surprised to find that I thought they were, I don't know, ... fat, too filled out, too curvy. Isn't that weird? So that goes to show what image I had in my mind for the ideal woman. I was still into girls.
Once I was in my 30s and in an environment where I was meeting grown women, my tastes changed. THAT is the point where I would have thought those Playboy bunnies were prime. They were.
Guys are genetically programmed to find the appearance of youthful women attractive. They can appreciate the blush of youth, but they appreciate the female form in general. Mature men find full grown women just as appealing, and sometimes more so. And grown women appreciate grown men and have the extra advantage of, shall we say... expertise? Hahaha
And beyond that, there is emotional and intellectual maturity that makes people very attractive.
Compliment time. A few extra pounds, a few fewer pounds, you're blessed with a really nice shape. That random guy you mentioned the other day who told you that you were beautiful wasn't kidding. You look fine.
Ever consider putting on a Playboy costume? Mmmm, I'm picturing it right now.
😎😜 Hahaha
Good points... If just looking for a fling, but to base a lifetime relationship off just looks won't last long term, which maybe Iis why more relationships don't Last there days...
But thanks for the compliments.. And bunny costumeπ€
Like this:
https://youtu.be/TGsFDFptNCs
ππ
@Brainsbeforebeauty Au contraire... If it was just a fling, looks wouldn't matter as much. If you're getting into an LTR, you want someone who is absolutely stunning now. That way you know they will still be at least moderately good looking 30 years down the road.
I agree with Jamie to an extent. I have standards of appearance for any partner. They don't have to be stunning. But they have to be attractive to me.
When it comes to a life partner, I agree with bbb. I have no respect for someone who would trade an awesome partner for a newer model as they age. It doesn't get more shallow than that. That's like abandoning your partner if they get ill or get disfigured in an accident. It's despicable.
I know people in their 80s who've been married since their 20s. They're still madly in love. Do either of them look great? Hell no. But they are as beautiful and handsome to each other as the day they fell in love. That's what I want.
"When it comes to a life partner, I agree with bbb. I have no respect for someone who would trade an awesome partner for a newer model as they age. It doesn't get more shallow than that. That's like abandoning your partner if they get ill or get disfigured in an accident. It's despicable.". I agree with this 100%. I didn't know that was what @Brainsbeforebeauty was saying.
@Brainsbeforebeauty damn you wrote this well indeed, it is funny how people do Love going for looks over a loyal, caring, loving n understanding person.
And those who tend to go for the physical appearance there relationships end up being a total mess. since they never married a person who is the friend or that person who connects with them well.
But I liked you in the first pic rocking those shorts 👍👍
Thank you π and thanks lol although I'm more the second pic now π€·πΌββοΈ
@Brainsbeforebeauty thanks for the awesome sweet educative post as well as for the vote MHO.
πππ
Well well so you have been on here but quiet. TELL me how your doing todAy dear brains?
Don't feel good π
What is going not well today on your side dear?
I'm not a doctor so don't know just don't feel right today...
Because people are superficial and want to have a "hot" partner.
I use the term hot loosely because what one person considers hot, maybe average or ugly to another.
Yet they don't realize, or want to accept, that one day those looks will fade. And if you choose someone purely on looks and not their personality, intelligence, or inner beauty?
You're gonna be sad, miserable, and alone, even though you're in a relationship...
I'm speaking from experience as I've had guys flat out reject me based in my appearance (and another reason I no longer use dating apps or post my picture online). They would love my personality, talking to me, said how great I was... until they saw my picture. Then poof! They either lost interest or ghosted me. Every single time.
That nonsense really screws with your self esteem and confidence. But I digress...
Ironically, some of you same people that are superficial, are the main ones that can't find a partner!!! I wonder why...
On a sidenote, you look good girl! I wish I had the confidence you do! Come down here and exercise with me...
Exactly!! Well said as usual π whether I get back to the size I was last year or not, it's still the same silly sometimes sarcastic somewhat lovable me π€ͺππ€£
I'd probably rather exercise with you than my daughter half my age, twice my energy and flexibility π± killing an old lady π
Well come on over! Today I'm doing an hour of strength training (upper, lower body, and abs). Followed up with some jump rope for cardio-
Afterwards we can grab some pancakes as a reward for our suffering :)
Pancakes sound good.. Jumping rope, I might wind up with two black eyes π±
I'm almost afraid to ask, but I'm going to anyway- how do you get black eyes from jumping rope? Worse thing that happens to me is my "whip" myself with the rope... that crap hurts!
The boobs πππ
LOL!!! I forgot about that.
Noo, you just need a good, supportive bra that holds the girls in! Trust me, I know. If you find a tight sports bra- nothing moves!
πππ
These are the easily brainwashed.
They watch movies where the coolest characters on tv are sexy or dating sexy people so they easily brainwashed minds go this is how i want to be, da shit like them.
They let the media tell them what to do how to choose partners how to vote.
How to see other races, what to eat how to see sexual orientation, how to vote, how to judge genders actions.
Media knows using propaganda works.
Look at politics. Ads don't tell people that if u vote for me i plan to do this or that to make America better.
Instead they use fear tactics of if u vote for my evil opponent America will be ruined and people panic.
Get outta my head π€£π€£ no really tho, you're not saying anything I don't think myself... You're wise for your age when you get to my age, you gonna be a force to reckon with, cuz you already more wise than some people twice your age πππ
Good comment , too many sheeple that do not think for themselves !!
Lol. thanks.
I'm believe myself a force to reckon with alreadyπ
But seriously itz why i chose journalism as my study.
Of course 1st option is 2 go pro. But I'm not getting any options yet.
But if it doesn't work out i will be able to at least cover track.
If i can't compete i can cover it and hopefully give a refreshingly honest unsolicited commentary on society at the sametime if god wills itππΎ
So you a track star πππ
Yes!! Always be proud of your accomplishments... No matter what you do in life, I'm sure you'll go far, achieve great things ππ
πππ
Opinion
62Opinion
So very beautiful and so right everyone and everything changes , I love beautiful people not from the out side, but from the inside out when is was almost 17 I went out with older women I never looked at the from an age point of view I looked at then on who they were what they were all about I have had chances to date beautiful women. Most of them I didn't,, because they were only beautiful on the out side. And the ones who were and still are BEAUTIFUL on the inside mmm yes I did I've always wondered why people just think the person they see is who they are. ,, I work with younger people and my friends are always to to hook me up with some one and things I have learned is that like me looking st color I don't see see it I have dated younger girls so smart so beautiful on the indide they never seen age they just seen me and I love thst. Because there always some one the same age as the girl I dated and they only see the out side and thats ok to there's nothing wrong with that that's who they are I've always wondered or have said how would it be if we were all blind. I believe our world would be so different
"I've always wondered or have said how would it be if we were all blind. I believe our world would be so different"...
So true there
I didn't know that miss brains is doing some modelling in her bedroom 😄
Anyways your bed is good but mine is bigger, it can fit me with miss brains and the muffins are the barriers and i'll eat the barrier to reach miss brains muffins 😂😂
Now my answer to your question is that people especially men are always tempted by looks, because the majority wants only sex, a smart man will search for a woman who adores him and makes him happy all the time...
I'll always choose the average girl who loves me from all heart forever instead of a top model who makes my life a living hell...
Anyways miss brains, you got the brains and the looks and the delicious muffins and meals which makes a real QUEEN 😌
I can hardly believe that your 48 but i like your decent outfit 😊
Where the bottle of mineral water next to the bed miss brains, what will happen if someone wakes up in the middle of the night thristy 😤, always keep a bottle of water next to the bed in case someone get thirsty, especially in winter, who wants to go out from the bed in the cold 😁
I'll keep the muffins in the drawer next to me 😋🧁
πππ funny lolol
Seriously tho, you have it right, look for the one that loves and cherishes you and love and cherish them ππ
Miss brains do you know why your special, it's because your rare and unique, you live your life like your someone casual while you aren't...
You must become a role model for teenage girls π
No wonder why your late husband loved you a lot cause who wouldn't, i'm sure he still loves you from where he is, may he rip...
A queen ain't only a rich woman who have authority, money and a crown on her head, a REAL QUEEN is a lady like you πΈπΌ
Thank you... Your words almost brought me to tears ππ
Don't cry sweet miss brains muffins, your tears are very precious, if you cry than i have to go and buy you natural juice to replace those tears with vitamins π
Your heart miss brains is big and priceless and i'll make sure to keep miss brains heart beats for 1000 years π
Thanks ππ
You welcome sweet miss brains π
as for the meme alluding to why one should not be so vain, a persons heart (used in the context that the meme uses it) can change too... and usually does. we need to change our desires if we want to stay connected with that heart... but it may be our own heart that changes and we may fall out of love... so in keeping with the reasoning of it, why should we try to love at all?
beauty is what catches our eye, and we gravitate towards it... the inner beauty can't be seen or heard until there is quite a bit more than a passing interaction, so its seldom seen, where as the physical beauty can be seen at a distance.
even a lot of other animals have a preference who they mate with, so it isn't just a human trait, but a fact of life that we like what is pleasant to our eyes...
not all outwardly "attractive" people have a mate, because some of them have no inner beauty to offer, and some very kind, generous and thoughtful people with amazing inner beauty have no mate because tno one is attracted to them on that alone... which leads me to understand that it takes both inner and outer beauty to be attractive enough to someone...
AND, we ALL see things through different eyes and individually, we can each see different forms of beauty in different places... so again, its not a simple thing to say that we shouldn't judge what we like only by whats in our heart... because that is NOT all that matters.
and STILL there is more to it... the mental attitude and stability, and someones personality has a lot to do with it after two people get to know each other...
so its a dynamic thing that is always changing, and it can't be said that a better understanding would make it better for anyone... i think a more accepting attitude could make it better for everyone world wide, but not necessarily make an extremely ugly or homely person be able to find a mate...
Its biological. Looks are said to be a sign of fertility. Women who are young and "hot" are more likely to have healthier eggs which makes for genetically healthier offspring. Same goes for men and their sperm. As they age, Women not only start to lose their eggs but their eggs also become more and more unhealthy for offspring. Our biology somehow has wired us on a subconscious level to seek out the most genetically healthy (looking) mate.
Im guessing you think we should pick mates based off of personality. But what biological imperative does that serve? In my opinion, personality is too malleable. It doesn't really indicate anything. You see, anybody can act a certain way. How is at all condusive to producing the most genetically healthy offspring possible? Maybe when it comes to actually raising the child, but if the child has bad genetics, theoretically speaking it won't have as good of a chance of surviving/thriving in the world compared to a genetically healthy offspring. Just my opinion.
Not gonna simp but you are looking good. I can patch in your face in those photos and now I know how you look :D
So those emojis covering your face are as useful to you as me tryna getting a girlfriend while I am not having any money on me.
For some people looks is all they care about. You see them chasing after the looks and ignoring the warning signs (single mother, baggage from previous exes, crazy psycho, abuses).
Yes, for some they lack self control and be dictated by their dick and "oh the pussy is so good" - if you know what I mean.
π€£ the emojis aren't not trying to hide people from knowing what my face looks like.. More someone couldn't take those pics from here and put them somewhere else with my face available/visible...
And good points, but also the point if you pass someone up just cuz they 20-30 lbs. Overweight, what happens then when they lose that weight and look really hot,... Now you attracted, but you lost that shot by being shallow
True that.
by the way. You asked me for my theme song before? I found it. Perfect!
https://youtu.be/oXMcxaRR0TY
ππ
Biology. People are attracted to physically attractive, people; both genders!
There is a consciously unknown, biologically-oriented drive to like the one of the species, that are the most attractive, the strongest, the ones that seem the best, sexiest, and to be drawn to those.
It is human biology, and many suppress that, and society seems to walk a fine line between the innate Biological desire and attraction, and the 'Socially acceptable' way.
The 'Reptilian' basal, primal brain, where sexuality, and physical desires are based, is focused on species survival.
Modern people, can consciously choose not to fall back to basal, sexual desires, and they can choose to focus on the higher, Mammalian Brain, that allows for relationships, emotions, love, family and monogamy.
But sometimes, some slip. . .
Aw hun you have nothing to worry about you look great in both pics :) it looks like you filled out in the second, or is that just the dress you wore first, but either way you look good.
As for the looks I wouldn't go solely for looks but you do need to attracted to some extent I've tried on three or four occasions to be with a guy who I didn't like the look of and one of them was sweet as pie, but I just felt like shit and like I was using him and the others I just felt gross about. So while I agree don't just replace the partner with a newer model or base a relationship on lust, there does need to be some lust or the relationship is just lustbuster (if that's the word I'm going for)
I think part of it is experiencing youth and getting ready to settle into old age...
But beauty is on the inside.
I think there is a reason why we age...
It's time for the next season of our lives.
Each decade says something about us by the way we look.
Each decade leading towards maturity.
To me, aging is just moving with the seasons of life
Great answer!!!
Why Do People Still Not Understand Why You Shouldn't Go By Physical Looks?
If you had added the word "alone," I could get on board with the spirit of this question.
Physical looks matter, and I don't just mean in the initial attraction. Looks are very often the difference between physical affection that is wonderful and physical affection that is a chore; something to be avoided. Of course looks fade or change. But it is supremely important to have *enjoyed* physical affection in order to bond.
This is indeed absolutely positively not fair. But it's very difficult to counter 2 million years of human evolution.
Indeed looks aren't everything. However let's not pretend they are nothing.
But when you can't have sex anyway when you get old or if you suffer severe illness or injury? Does it really matter then π€
Yes, it does.
Without the bond of enjoyable sex and physical affection, you're unlikely to reach old age together in the first place. *Enjoyable* sex is the strongest glue. Ask any divorce lawyer. And as one who was in a relationship with both someone I was very physically attracted to and someone I was very not physically attracted to, it had am immeasurable impact on the sex, kissing, and cuddling. Night and day isn't sufficient to describe it. More like heaven and hell.
My parents were very physically attracted to each other. My mom often was compared with Natalie Wood. When their marriage ended with my father's death at the age of 81, I can assure you they were both wrinkly, sagging, and overweight. But their years of gazing longingly at each other (which was a phase that lasted decades), of enjoying sex and not avoiding it, of being in each other's arms admiring each other's beauty and *not* avoiding each other's gaze, was a HUGE factor that brought them to the end of the marriage. As important as my mother's admiration for my dad's genius and my father's admiration for my mom's compassion.
This is why I reject the looks fade argument. Skipping ahead to the 30th anniversary from the start appeals to virtually no one.
I want to make this very clear. By the time I said "I do," it wouldn't have mattered if someone took a blow torch to my wife's face (though I swear to God I would kill that person with my own hands), I would have happily married her.
But it was *critical* in the first year to bond. Much of our bonding was through physical affection that we enjoyed. Very much. Physical affection is the *only* thing that separates romantic love from friendship. And our physical attraction for one another is a BIG factor in making it enjoyable (though not the only one).
I am the first to admit that to many, this is supremely unfair. I feel for these people. I've held them in my arms as they sobbed over being rejected by someone for their appearance, or how they were not able to find someone they found physically attractive. I assure you it's heart breaking.
But I cannot alter reality. There are reasons why we find people physically attractive that have been drilled into virtually every one of the seven billion of us who walk the earth.
It's unreasonable to expect people to simply overlook 2 million years of evolution. Unrealistic, too. This is why I long to see an end to the use of the words "shallow" and "superficial" to describe something that is altogether part and parcel of being human, no matter how sad and unfair it is for some.
I strongly suspect the reason many adhere to the looks don't matter philosophy is that the truth is mercilessly unfair.
Attraction is important, Iβll give them that. But looks are definitely not everything. Iβve recently been in a situation with two guys I liked, one was average, one was my EXACT type and handsome. I picked the average guy. Why? Because we just automatically clicked, and Iβve never had a connection like that before. Looks donβt matter when your soul connects with someone elses. Peace and love.
Exactly... Couldn't of said it better
I think its because maybe the average guy doesn't make you feel insecure about your physical appearance while the handsome guy probably did. The handsome guy probably intimidated you as well. A lot of insecure girls will date these average guys not because they're actual attracted to them but for emotional security. They know the average looking guy is less likely to cheat on them because of his lack of options and more likely to worship her for that same reason. He also tends to be less demanding in the bedroom.
@Louistruman19 not true, it's cuz the looks don't matter if the guy is a liar or a loser or a drunk or can't keep a job...
You make it like not wanting to date someone just based off looks is more about insecurities when it's more about that person and them being MORE than just good looks...
Speak for yourself. Jeremy meeks literally was a gang member and went to prison for illegal firearms possession. He was the litteral definition of a loser. Female billionaires bailed this dude out of prison just so they could marry him because of his looks.
Richard Ramirez was a serial killer but because of his looks he had women flocking towards him. There are plenty of other goodlooking jobless losers who live in their moms basement who have women flocking towards them.
Looks seem to be biologically hardwired for desirability over pretty much every other aspect a man has overwhelmingly. Just my opinion. If you truly disagree, could you please explain why guys like Jeremy meeks have so much success with women despite their bad personalities?
@Louistruman19 because there's dumb females just like there's dumb males that go for the gold diggers, the user females, the cheaters... Read the question.. I didn't say people DON'T go by looks.. I said they SHOULDN'T... And everything you just mentioned just shows my point π€·πΌββοΈπ€·πΌββοΈ
I never said that you said women don't go by looks.
@Louistruman19 no I did not... Slow me where I said that?
*show
Attraction is a big deal. I tried to like someone based off other things aside from looks and i just couldnt stay interested in them romantically. Friendship wise sure but who cares to have friends these days 🤷ββοΈ Now i am fine with someone starting off looking good and getting less attractive because we got older. Thats fair. But becoming unattractive due to weight gain for example and not wanting to fix it can eventually become a turnoff/dealbreaker.
But weight gain isn't always about laziness... Sometimes health factors, pregnancy (not everyone takes the baby weight off), menopause can cause weight gain, etc...
I dont blame pregnancy and stuff. Im talking about my lazy ass second ex who talked me out of exercising because he didn't want to join in. He just wanted to game 6 hours a day and gain more weight
It's pretty impressive to see you still have the same sunglasses. Think I've lost or broken 2 or 3 during that timeframe lol :)
Very well said here Toots and it's the absolute truth so people really do need to understand that.
P. S. I think you look great in both pics :)
Okay I'm gonna admit to either a dumb blonde moment it senior moment or blonde senior moment but shh π€« gotta promise not to tell noone π€ for a minute I was thinking sunglasses, what sunglasses? I didn't have any glasses on in either of those pics π€£π€£π€£ but then ππ duh π€¦ lololol
But thanks for the compliment tho trying to get more back to last year's weight but π€·πΌββοΈ
Not too funny seem to be having more and more of those
lol if make you feel any better... last night... sitting on couch doing some work on laptop... note pad next to me... go to write something down... to all hell can't find the pen I had with me... don't want to get up so rifle hands down couch cushions and under me and just when I was about to get up to get another one... I found out... I had it all along in between my teeth... true story... I laughed :)
ππ been there done that
πππ
So whilst I may come across as an incredibly intelligent, articulate and humorous guy the reality is that deep down I'm a happy go lucky idiot that finds himself in situations that a sitcom would reject for being unrealistic , so for the time being I require people to give me the benefit of the doubt based on my Physical looks (I mean they are deteriorating at a rapid rate as each day passes so this is not a long term plan!) lol
Lololol
They say "will you eat a fruit that is rotten just to see that is it okay from inside?".
I also said what if the beautiful and fresh fruit is poisonous? They said "then spit out that fruit if it has a worm inside."
Nowadays people want both good looks and good personality.
But the point is the good looks can change... The personally, the character of the person, not as much. .. so if you put too much importance in just looks? And looks don't always just change for the worse, sometimes they change for the better.. But those they went by looks alone, might of passed up something good they could of had by being shallow
In my case I chose the ugly one and he lied to me so much then I dumped him forever. Personality is more impressive according to me. I had a CRUSH ON A REALLY HOT GUY but then I TESTED him before proposing him, he wasn't my type at all so I controlled my self like hell and stayed far away.
Because they are very very very superficially generally I stop noticing peoples looks really quickly it`s their personalities which keep me interested. trust if your pretty and pain in the arse the thought this person is a pain in the arse will win every time
Right! That's exactly the point. And people can look better over time it look worse over time, π€·πΌββοΈ but ugly inside usually don't so I don't care how "good" someone look on the outside, cuz I've known some really goodlooking guys that were complete assholes so if yeah no thank you... And neither of my hubbies were what others might have deemed attractive but too me they were cuz of the love I had
π€£π€£ love your modesty πππ
Because you do need to feel attracted to someone when you are dating them.
And there's nothing wrong with that, you can't force yourself to feel attracted to someone while you're just not.
It's just wrong when you're so blinded by someone's looks that you don't see how bad they treat you or just how shitty they are as a person in general.
We have biochemical responses to different triggers our senses experience. It is automatic, so not within our control. We have no control over our feelings, but we do have control over how we act on these feelings. Everyone knows there will be changes as we age, but the biochemical responses don't consider the future.
Many people legitimize changes. I can't tell you how many times I've heard women say it is perfectly normal for women to get fat as they age. Men get fat if they don't consider their consumption and metabolism when making their choices, also. Rather than saying, "If you loved me, you'd accept me as I am," ask yourself if you are putting forth the same effort in the areas important to your partner as you'd like your partner to put forth in the areas important to you. The effort is more important than the results. Some things are truly out of our control, but don't use that as an excuse to ignore what is within your control.
Looks will always play a part sure picking someone on looks aline is stupid but you can't argue the fact that looks play a part if attraction was only based on personality we would all be bi as the looks would be irrelevant
So when the looks change then, stop loving them or trade them in, and what about when it's your looks that change, do you want to be traded in π€
Yes I did.. Did you read mine.. I was asking you a question... so are you going to lose the attraction then, when their looks change from what originally attracted you?
No because again I love her both looks and personality plus we will both change i have not illusion that she won't look as good as she does now when she is old same for me but thats how loving someone long term is I ready everything u said and again if your partner turned around tommorw and simply said I have never been attracted to how you look you would be happy with that?
Ha he kinda did not in the way, just more I knew I wasn't really the type he normally went for, blondes (I'm blonde) not a boob man (even tho have always had bigger boobs) But I understood, cuz he wasn't the type I normally went for either... But obviously we both had the real thing or it wouldn't of lasted 20 years π€·πΌββοΈ and would of been 27 if he hadn't died 7 years ago.. but see, if I or him had went JUST by the physical, look at all we would of gave up just for what, looks?
No he was attracted to my mind and my personally and my strength for what I had been through in life, looks not so much.
Well there I agree ππ
because they are still young and think that such shallow measures of other people are most important... you can't tell them otherwise but when they get older they will learn what we meant by this themselves
Well said and very true if you not only read the threads but look at the age! You get it!!
Great answer!!π
I meant the threads prove you're right lolol I get physical attraction but people don't get once you see people past their appearance that can grow just like love... And also didn't get the point that weight can change, just cuz someone overweight now, don't mean they always will be, and just cuz they skinny now, don't mean they always will be... I've been skinny, fat, big boobs, bigger boobs, etc... But my personally and character are always me...
Exactly!!! I loved my second hubby with all my heart... But the physical attraction wasn't there from the start, it grew from the love and attraction of his personality, his character, his strength,
Exactly... By no means perfect cuz no relationship is, but when the shit hit the fan, we always had each other's back and took care of one another like it's supposed to be... I think had he not been sick, had we not had all the stresses that came with that, we would of had an even better relationship
Physical looks do matter a bit, for example I won't date a girl that is overweight or has done stuff to her body (tattoos, piercings etc.)
It's just personal preference really, it's not a bad thing to want an attractive girl/guy, I don't really care about that myself but I see why people do want that
The point is it can't be just that and looks can and do change
Yeah I fully agree, personality does matter more but physical looks do matter as well even if not that much
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