People please, you don't get to redefine standards of beauty!

[ScruffynateAK]

It seems a large contingent of.. certain people... like to criticize people for being attracted to "conventionally attractive people." That it's "perpetuating damaging beauty standards" to be attracted to women of standard proportions. That we need to, or even can, redefine beauty standards.

I'm here to tell y'all in this camp of thought, the reason you are unable to redefine beauty standards is because nobody made them. While exact opinions on the best aesthetic of the female form have shifted in some periods - often favoring plumper women or more slender ones depending on the time period - the core idea has not changed. Proportionality, symmetry, etc.

What subscribers of this ideology seem to think is that men across all cultures had a meeting behind the backs of the unsuspecting females and said, "You know how we could really screw with chicks? Lie to them about what we're attracted to! We don't even like rounded buttocks and voluptuous bosoms!"

Let's get real for a second guys. People in this stubborn train of thought have taken something that is beautiful, and decided that it is an instrument in the oppression of those it doesn't like.

I am of course referring to the male organ. This is a device that knows no race, creed, ethnicity, color, religion, shape, size, etc. It has two options, "YES!" or, "Nahh, not feeling it." All it knows is what it likes. Over history, it has said "YES" to a lot more "conventionally attractive" women than those who are not.

Now ladies, I don't want you to feel bad about yourselves. I just think it's a good idea to be honest if we're going to be attacking people left and right for things they have no control over. If you don't pass a guy's test, there are other guys. Men are attracted to women of all different shapes and sizes, there's someone out there who thinks you're hot stuff.

But more importantly gals, why should your self worth be predicated on what anyone thinks of you? Your value doesn’t come from what you look like, but from who you are! It's you that's important! Don't rely on what people think of your looks, those will fade whether you fit the "conventional" bill now or not, make sure who you are and who you want to be is a pretty as your exterior. As my girl Judge J says;

Let's stop denying a simple truth, and start talking about why people are so concerned about what others think that they lie to themselves and girls in countries far and wide. Recognize that physical beauty is not a thing created by oppressive men, but is simply something that has come about naturally, and that real beauty comes from within. If we can do that, we can move forward as a society.

*Yes, I realize that I personally am not especially attractive. No, I don't think you need my approval. No, I don't think you're contributing intelligently to the topic.*

[Bandit74]

I do believe the media plays a role in body preference but I dont think thats the only factor. There are innate qualities that we find attractive such as facial harmony, ratios between certain features on the face, health, hip to waist ratio for women, shoulder to waist ratio for men.

Some people have theorized that body weight preference is partially based on resource scarcity Also there's the rarity factor.

In times where food is scarce heavier body types will be preferred since they are signs of surving. However in times where food is abundant and people are fed (USA) thinner builds will be preferred. Also we often value rarity, so in a country where being overweight is common, skinnier builds are more rare and might be praised more than if they were common.

Also Nalaa made a good point about how beauty is supposed to be rare. The media doesn't nessesarily make us think those models/actresses are attractive. We would probably find them attractive even if it wasn't for ads and movies. However it does skew our perception of average. Reallt attractive people in nature would be rare to comb by. However since we are all conceded and bombarded with images of rediculously attractive people our perception of average has scaled up.

you can read more about it here...

www.psychologytoday.com/.../why-i-hate-beauty

also about weight preference

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15686584

thepsychologist.bps.org.uk/.../science-attraction

[nalaa]

The first article is very interesting, it's essentially what I've been trying to say. A lot of men claim they know the difference between reality and illusion but they don't. That's it.

"ratios between certain features on the face" it's probably true to some extent but science on that is also rather shaky. Most of them for example only study white faces

[Bandit74]

@nalaa

I'm not sure if the article mentioned it but I believe the techical term is "the contrast effect of attraction" .

I feel like it would apply to women too though :/
Maybe less for marriage but I do think it could make women even pickier about casual sex :/

To what extent do you think the stuff about facial ratios are untrue?

The stuff about jaw angles, eye placement, and the ratios between upper face, mid face and lower face.

I've heard 2 theories, that faces that are more symetric and have the desired ratios are more attractive and pleasing to look at because they signifies health and /or they are easier to process by our brain.

Also what does skin color have to do with it?

[nalaa]

I'm sure it does apply to women as well, just less so, since we're infamously less focused on looks and more on other things such as status, personality. I always say the ideal man would be like Harvey Specter to the outside, like uncle Jesse at home and like Jax Teller in bed. No one guy can ever live up to that, but it's a lot more relative than looks, which is very obvious and shallow.

I didn't say it was inaccurate necessarily, I'm saying it's shaky science that often only looks at one race only and implies correlation is causation.
It's not skin color it's that different races have different facial structures, like Asian overall having rounder faces than europeans. Hence the term eurocentric beauty standards.
Then the judges are incredibly biased, it's no secret we find it easier to distinguish faces of our own races, to even notice differences. And who's to say those judges don't find those specific ratios attractive because that's what they see in the media all the time

[nalaa]

rather than the other way around?

[Bandit74]

@nalaa

I'm not familiar with Jax Teller, I'm guessing he fits the badboy stereotype?

Also all of the men you mentioned are above average in regards to appearance. Harvey, jessy , and Jax likely wouldn't have anywhere bear as much appeal if they were average looking guys.

"And who's to say those judges don't find those specific ratios attractive because that's what they see in the media all the time"

Sure, but aren't the facial proportions all based on the golden ratio and didn't we discover that before the Eurocentric beauty standards became mainstream?

Also there have been studies where infants who have yet to be exposed to mainstream media prefer looking at faces that were rated as being more conventionally attractive.

www.newscientist.com/.../

[nalaa]

Ya he is the bad boy pretty much. A character from Sons of Anarchy, good show.

Well all of them are good looking for their age respectively. Also they all dress for their character be it three piece suit or leather jacket which makes a difference as well
And I never said looks aren't part of it and sure they'd have less appeal the uglier they get but they'd still have some appeal. Whereas from what I understand if a woman is in like the 10 percentile look wise she practically no appeal to men?

"Sure, but aren't the facial proportions all based on the golden ratio and didn't we discover that before the Eurocentric beauty standards became mainstream"
I don't really know about either of that, I think though most cultures that did that were ancient european countries like the greeks. Who had eurocentric beauty standards. That's the point in Europe , eurocentric beauty standards were always the standards, because well shocker most people only knew other Europeans

[nalaa]

and when we colonized other countries people often often saw the indigenous people as beneath them and hence ugly. Over the years we pushed our ideals onto them and not much has changed about that in the last like 150 years.

I think what most studies show is that you can make a face more attractive by adjusting some ratios. And the golden ration seems to work for a lot of white faces. But more attractive doesn't mean its as good as it could be.
I know infants respond to prettier faces, but then those studies are completely different from the ratio ones. In yours they had adults rate faces first. So all we can conclude is that babies have the same preferences as adults.
Or not, maybe they had one attractive nurse and he recognized her more in the good pictures. Again Correlation is not Causation

Again the I'm not saying the ratio stuff is wrong , I know there are a good few studies that indicate there is something to it. I just it's a little shaky as it is.

[Bandit74]

@nalaa
"if a woman is in like the 10 percentile look wise she practically no appeal to men?"

That's probably true but statistically most people are around average so there aren't that many women in the 10th percentile. Also I don't think men in the bottom 10th percentile have that much more appeal. The few who do have probably had to compensate by have an above average ammount of wealth which not all guys can do. So sure they might be slightly better off than the women but they are still pretty skrewed.

Supposedly the Egyptians knew of the ratio too :/

"In yours they had adults rate faces first. So all we can conclude is that babies have the same preferences as adults."

Yes, that is true, the adults rated the faces first. But since the adults have been exposed to European beauty standards I'm assuming that the faces the adults rated as being more attractive probably fit the conventional mold. Although maybe I'm wrong.

[Anonymous]

I have never really found myself physically attractive for some reason. I try to make different faces in the mirror and notice I look much better when I smile. But it's still not "hot". It's more plain-faced and childishly cute. I wish I look older or more grownupish, though. I have a bit of flab on my belly, which does not really give me a womanly appearance. And even though my breasts are normal and not sagging, they seem a bit small. Well, at least I am not flat-chested like a washboard. I dislike my voice. Every time I record myself, I never sound like a typical woman. Rather, it feels like my voice has been stuck in Child Mode.

[Minxxie]

Not everyone has the same standards of beauty around the world though, it's not a homogenous thing worldwide. People in certain areas are brought up to find certain traits beautiful, there are groups of people in India who won't marry a woman unless she's dyed her teeth black, or sharpened them to a point, there are tribes in Africa where a woman must go into a "fattening hut" to drink full fat milk for months before her marriage and she must be fat enough or her fiance' won't marry her. Different geographical regions prefer different body shapes and different traits have been attractive throughout different time periods. Being chubby used to denote wealth and that you could afford to eat rich foods so men preferred the pale chubby figures we often see painted in classical works. Pale also meant wealth because it meant you didn't have to go outside and work. Then people started wanting women to tan! Beauty standards are passing trends and no one is attracted to the same cookie cutter thing as everyone else at any one time. Many beauty standards ARE created by men trying to oppress women, look at all the coverings women must wear in places like Saudi Arabia. And foot binding! Men in China made it so women must have their feet snapped in half and held together with bandages so they were crippled for life and could never properly defend themselves if they wanted to get married. You can't deny history. Now I am not "defending obesity" or whatever it is people usually whine about, but I am just admitting the truth. Many beauty standards for women are created by men. Like corsetting, women had to deform their organs because men considered any uncorseted woman a whore and would ruin her life and reputation. I realize that not everyone is going to be attracted to my size 0 self and I'm not going to change just because someone doesn't like it (besides the fact I really can't) and many men like curvy women who... gasp! may even have a few rolls. Who are you to tell men what to be attracted to?

[ScruffynateAK]

I'm fairly certain I acknowledged the changing opinions on the exact best form, whilst also acknowledging that each iteration has many similarities.
And while different cultures have different exact definitions (I exaggerated when I mentioned men across "all cultures.") very few subscribe to the ideas present in Mauritania.
The idea of "conventional" attractiveness is of course much wider than Victoria's Secret models, that's not what I'm referring to. I'm referring to what most men outside of a small African country prefer, which tends to be healthy, proportional women.
Within that definition, there's a huge range of body type.
I also acknowledge that there are men out there attracted to every body type.
Obviously I'm speaking in general terms throughout the entire take.
As to your last question, I wasn't aware that I did. *See acknowledgment of men attracted to many body types."

[Minxxie]

I feel like you take was just pushing your personal likes onto every man and I don't see the point you are trying to make other than "I'm right, and everyone else is wrong!"

[ScruffynateAK]

No, you're wrong ;) Jk
What I'm trying to say is that it should be all right that a lot of men are attracted to the same ranges of body types, and also that people shouldn't base their self worth on what others think of their body.
That's really it.
If you're attracted to black painted teeth, that's fine, but most people aren't, and that's also fine.

[Zombie-Killa]

But everyone has their own right to choose their own standard of beauty, and no Countries media has any obligation to placate the rest of the world's ideal of beauty.

[nalaa]

First of all "you are unable to redefine beauty standards is because nobody made them" that's BS and I think people who believe that are the stubborn ones.

Yes there are some innate characteristics that make people attractive, such as facial symmetry, height in men and wide hips in women. But that only goes so far. The bulk of what we consider ideal is man made and today it's mostly advertisement made. Such as tall underweight figures, no body hair, light skin or tanned skin...
Some of it might seem natural to you but it's not, it's cultural. I'm not saying it was created by men to mess with women but def WAS created

Second of all, what you seem to miss is that beauty is rare. It's supposed to be, but when you are bombarded with images of beautiful people all the time, it makes you see that as normal and it's not.
Many men think of average women as ugly, when they're average, which means better than half the population. It happens to men as well but not as much as to women, still maybe you find it easier to relate to.

Superman 1951, not bad looking guy. Above average in terms of face and body

worstist.com/.../...n-2-george-reeves-736x1024.jpg

yet most people today would judge him to be average at best, because we're more used to images like this.

s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/.../...fa35ac6f17.jpg

It's not wrong that women are more attracted to the younger, more muscular version but let's not perpetuate the idea that all men can look similar to Henry Cavil. I mean they can if they put in enough work but I believe he worked out something 6 hours a day, how is that realistic? And it's the same for female models, yet a lot men seem to expect women to be as thin and fit and pretty as models

Image is superficial, if it's not obvious

img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/anNYA4o_460s.jpg

What they do however is set standards for what women should look like and yes I realize most people know it's fake. Point is it doesn't matter, it still determines how men see women and how girls see themselves, if they want it or not

" why should your self worth be predicated on what anyone thinks of you? Your value doesn’t come from what you look like" well I agree but it seems like that IS all men care about true. True or not that is what we are taught since we're children. That that is all that matters. And it's so bad that even beautiful women, like Miranda Kerr, who hit the genetic lottery, feel they have to photoshop themselves

i.dailymail.co.uk/.../...400000578-564_634x476.jpg

That's what those people are on about, seeing women as people for their accomplishments rather than a collection of body parts and recognizing beauty as what it is, rare

[samhradh_leannan]

First of all, I don't think anyone is accusing men of lying about what they're attracted to just to mess with women. Nor are we suggesting that men have total control over what they're attracted to, or that they should have absolutely no aesthetic preferences whatsoever.

But I disagree with your opinion that there isn't a problem. While it's fair for people to have preferences and it's normal for a society to have some beauty ideals, our society right now- not men specifically, but our society as a whole- IS oppressive to women in some ways as far as aesthetics. For example, women naturally have body hair in all the places that men do- usually not as much of it, granted, but it's there. That's natural and human and it's how every woman is born. Yet we're expected to shave or wax basically half of our entire body, or we're considered totally unacceptable and gross. Do you have any idea how much time, effort, money, and pain goes into that kind of upkeep? And that's because our society has told men that that's what they should like and expect. There is no better reason. We are training our own society to force us to do crazy things not just to be considered beautiful, but to be considered a normal female.

[ScruffynateAK]

The whole take should be considered in general terms.
Hygiene traditions and fashion trends change much more readily than attractions to general bodily type.
You may very well have a legitimate grievance, but as you would have seen if I had worded the take quite a bit better, they are a different issue.

[samhradh_leannan]

So basically, all you're really referring to is the preference for curvy (healthy curvy) body types which are associated with fertility?

[ScruffynateAK]

Basically.

[ScruffynateAK]

But even within that there is a WIDE range of body type. There just happen to be people on the fringes who believe that this is problematic.

[samhradh_leannan]

That is different.

[vishna]

Like you said, beauty trends have changed throughout time, and they varied widely depending on the culture. So, technically the requirements a woman had to meet has changed over time and was never uniform throughout the world. But where did these fads come from-women and what certain men liked in women (influential men and women)

People like Kim Kardashian and Jennifer Lopez helped created a trend that says a huge booty is hot. Rappers glorified huge booties in their popular songs.

So, an influential and persistent man or woman could change what requirements women have to meet to be considered 'conventionally' pretty in a specific culture.

[brain5000]

"It seems a large contingent of.. certain people... like to criticize people for being attracted to 'conventionally attractive people.'"

Really? Who? I haven't seen one whit of this. "Large contingent?" Is that a pun or is there a non-negligible population out there that is criticizing so?

I mean, as premises go, it's a rather amusing one for a take, so whatever, I'll travel along with it...

"... That we need to, or even can, redefine beauty standards."

Again... haven't heard a whisper or even read it in the fine print. Most of the people I have seen who complain are men. Is this about men?

"... there's someone out there who thinks you're hot stuff."

Wait, did you really say that? Seriously? No no. No. No no. No no no no.

See this:
www.girlsaskguys.com/.../a22974-why-you-ll-find-someone-is-a-terrible-hurtful-thing-to-say-to

[brain5000]

I mean, this was an amusing take, even if you are talking about men or women who don't exist in large enough numbers to address publicly.

[ScruffynateAK]

Large was a pun.
They are generally simply loud.
Did you read the next part?
The whole part about one's self worth noting being predicated on what others think of you?

[ScruffynateAK]

*not being*

[brain5000]

Yeah, I saw all of that, and my reaction is always the same: "you're telling me I am going to have to settle, aren't you? Settle for someone who isn't conventionally attractive?"

Sure, I can be all alone with my grandiose sense of self-worth. I know I am awesome, even if no one else gets it, right? I am fantastic, it is the world's fault for not lusting after me...

... or I can be with someone I don't like/am not attracted to.

Do you think you made me feel better by pointing that out?

[ScruffynateAK]

If conventional attractiveness isn't the end all be all attractiveness, then why are you concerned with finding someone who is conventionally attractive?

[brain5000]

Did I say that conventional attractiveness wasn't the be all/end all of attractiveness? I don't think I said that. Did I say that?

I don't really get to decide what I consider attractive, right? As you said, it's up to "the male organ. This is a device that knows no race, creed, ethnicity, color, religion, shape, size, etc. It has two options, 'YES!" or, 'Nahh, not feeling it.' All it knows is what it likes. Over history, it has said 'YES' to a lot more 'conventionally attractive' women than those who are not."

Well put. You're not backtracking now and saying conventional attractiveness is insignificant and contradicting your Take, are you?

[ScruffynateAK]

I didn't, I thought you were, which led me to wonder why you were worried about finding a "conventionally attractive" mate.
Of course you get to make your own decisions, we're speaking in EXTREMELY general terms here. There are men and women attracted to all sorts of body types. There just happens to be a common range that tends to be found attractive more often.
You get to be you, and whoever you find gets to be them.
We don't get to tell other people they're wrong for being them.

[brain5000]

Yeah, I don't have any problem with free will and the right of people to make choices and being yourself. I just have a problem with "don't worry - there's someone out there for you."

Right - someone repulsive, thanks.

"If you don't pass a guy's test, there are other guys. Men are attracted to women of all different shapes and sizes, there's someone out there who thinks you're hot stuff."

How would you feel if your crush rejected you and said that to you?

[ScruffynateAK]

Bad.
And I'd have to deal with it and move on.
I've had it said several times.
Guess what I did?
I sure as hell didn't tell her she subscribed to damaging social stereotypes and that real men have curves.
If you agree with the spirit of the take, and simply think my choice of words may make someone feel bad, then we are literally arguing semantics.

[brain5000]

Actually, we _could_ argue semantics over your last comment, because I might disagree with you about the meaning of "semantics!":D

I do think arguing about your choice of words is legitimate, because when you are hurtful, it damages the effect of your argument. It seems perfectly legitimate and not trivial to suggest a better wording.

In this case, I would have simply left out your clumsy attempt to make uglies feel better about themselves. No, we can't stamp our feet and demand that people change their preferences out of a sense of justice. Period.

In the past, I have made the point that there are a number of things people can do to optimize their attractiveness. Some that come to mind include:

1) Make sure you are in the best physical shape you can possibly achieve.
2) Dress as well as you can afford at all times.
3) Do things that add meaning and fulfillment to your life. People are attracted to happy.
4) Have fun. People are attracted to fun.

etc.

[ScruffynateAK]

It WAS a clumsy attempt to make people feel better.
That's because it's not the point of the take. I also had a lot of trouble with the GIFs because GAG weirded out, so I was rather frustrated and not focused as I wrote the final section.
At any rate, I appreciate your discussion, and would likely change how I worded that if I had an edit option.
Thanks!

[ScruffynateAK]

As for semantics, I think you are mistaken about exactly what I meant, but it's not important.

[brain5000]

I know what you meant. Thanks for a nice, frank and honest discussion. :)

[PippiL]

Eh, tell that to the Duchess of Devonshire. She pretty much invented this "beautiful" look. And people really did think it was sexy. The higher the horsehair, the hotter!
www.library.yale.edu/.../miss_prattle.jpg

[ScruffynateAK]

Fashion changes, attraction to birthing hips and nursing bosoms is forever.

[PippiL]

Maybe. Vicky's models seem to get plenty of attention, despite having neither.

[ScruffynateAK]

Blame that on women and gay men in the fashion industry, not the average joe.

[PippiL]

Hmm, interesting. I wonder how much the fashion industry impacts men's beauty standards.

[ichot]

Guess who's making the biggest deal with 'beauty standards'? The one that started that #effyourbeautystandards of course...

Obese model... OF COURSE..

[ScruffynateAK]

I didn't want to get too specific...
But the only women pushing this idea are those that are really insecure in their looks. They tie their self worth directly to whether someone thinks they're attractive, and so of course, when they don't exactly fit the bill, try to blame it on someone else.

[ElizG45]

It bothers me that it's almost only women who do it tbh

Like, I don't see a whole lot of guys saying "omg we need more fat/ugly/old/minority/unconventional men on tv". I see a whole lot of women saying it tho

[GirlsLie]

That's a good way to think about it, nice take. Also I love judge judy lol

[Zombie-Killa]

Thank freaking Jeebus, somebody finally said it!

[ConsultantIsBack]

Great take man!