Have men forgotten how to be "real" men?

[Blitzkrieger]

In the ancient Roman empire a man was called a "homo", but a masculine man was called a "vir". This is where the word virility came from. In ancient roman masculine virtue, it is a manly thing to raise your children, to take them under your wing, to be a father to them, to nurture them and to see them grow into adults.

The modern notion of what is a traditional man is that a woman raises the children while the man does not. Why is the modern view of traditional masculinity reduced to almost nothing?

This concept had a Greek equivalent as well. And when I say ancient Roman empire, I say all of it, not just the city of Rome.

Why is it no longer manly to raise your children? Why is it a woman's job now?

[Orph__]

I fought tooth and nail in the Family Court to gained shared custody of my son, because Family Law assumes that the mother is always the primary carer. Of course, they don't spell that out, but it's still the general consensus. Why? Because there are so many deadbeat fathers out there who are too selfish to step up to the responsibility of raising a child.
There are ever increasing numbers of boys and young men, who haven't had strong, healthy, loving male role models in their lives, and they are suffering because of it.
I know of plenty of fathers who won't hold their sons hand or hug them because it's "gay" to show affection to another male.

I believe it's up to us men. We need to tell those deadbeat and uncaring fathers to man the fk up and show your soft side. We need to encourage each other to take pride in raising our kids and maintaining a household, and to tell others that they should too.

Just as it's unfair for feminists to blame males for their problems, us men need to take responsibility for our problems too.

From: a loving Dad in a shared custody arrangement, ex Muay Thai fighter, bouncer, bodyguard, surveillance officer and now residential youth worker. Yes, I'm looking after kids who's deadbeat parents don't deserve them.

[Blitzkrieger]

thats great man, keep up the great work.

"I know of plenty of fathers who won't hold their sons hand or hug them because it's "gay" to show affection to another male."

i agree with all that you said, especially this. thats terrible in my opinion.

[Orph__]

Thanks mate.

[BlueCoyote]

You got that a little wrong. "Homo" means first and foremost "human". It can be used for either sex. For example "Turba hominum" means "a crowd of people". This can be said whether the crowd is all male, all female or a mix of both. Or when Cicero's daughter died, a friend wrote to him: "homo nata fuerat" ("she had been born a human"), by which he meant to say that she was eventually going to die.
"Vir" means specifically "man" in a biological sense and in relation to its opposite, the female sex.

[Blitzkrieger]

then wikipedia told me wrong. vir was never used for a man who had not done military service by the way, so not all men where considered vir.

[Blitzkrieger]

especially not slaves.

[BlueCoyote]

Well, slaves are a bit of a special case anyway as they weren't considered "homo" either but rather "things" that can be owned.
The thing about the military service is true. That's still the case today: in many countries, such as may own, where there is a mandatory conscription for military service, conservatives love to say that you're not a real man if you haven't done that. Frankly, I think that's absolutely retarded. I couldn't go to the army even if I had wanted to because I have a disability. That doesn't make me less of a man.

[Blitzkrieger]

Thats true.

[Anonymous]

I don't know what your point is by bringing the Romans into this, as that in no way proves that it is the right way to be a man. I also do not agree with your view that it is no longer seen as manly to take care of ones kids, as it is in fact strongly encouraged. Species are mainly monogamous when it increases the chances of their offspring being more successful, which has been proven to be true for humans. Now more than ever, men are expected to help women raise children, mainly because women also work, increasing the share of responsibilities between men and women.

[Blitzkrieger]

Why is fatherhood then reduced to almost nothing?

[Opinion Owner]

In what way, exactly?

[Blitzkrieger]

if the mother doesn't want you to be part of the childrens lives you are not going to part of it. if she doesn't want you there at the delivery of the baby then you are not going to be there, the same for ultrasounds. the mother can rob the father of his involvement and role as a father whenever she wishes to do so.

[Opinion Owner]

I think that's mostly due to men's consistent lack of desire to raise children throughout time. So, even though men are encouraged to do so, it is still recognized that women have always been the ones more willing to actively participate in caregiving. So, yes, women are given the privileges, but mostly because men have always been less willing to put in the work required to raise children. And, it makes sense biologically because women carry the child, women can breast feed the child, etc.

[Blitzkrieger]

Actually a man's brain chemistry changes when he becomes a father. He becomes more altruistic towards his new family and he engages less in risk taking behavior. Being present at the ultrasounds and the delivery is crusial for this change in the chemistry of his brain.

Men are made to be fathers, there is no argument against it. The notion that men dont want to be fathers to their own children is false. There are plenty of men who fight for some involvement in their childrens lives. Taking fatherhood away from a man is one of the worst things that can happen to a man.

[hellionthesagereborn]

Well technically they thought that being into women was feminizing as one ancient recording showed an argument where the "manly" man argued that since he had sex with men it made him more masculine by virtue of exploring masculine attitudes or some such and the other man was feminine as he wore make up and such to attract women. Like attracts like I guess. Also what your describing was not actually the case, at least not in later years, they did take young males under their wing however this was due to pedestry, they would essentially groom them as sex toys, or at least do so frequently. They thought that being penetrated made you unmanly but apparently being the one to penetrate made you extra manly. So I wouldn't really go by ancient roman civilization for what is and is not masculine. That said yes I think their is an issue with masculinity in society however that is because it is demonized by society and by women. Men are constantly negatively portrayed in media, if you act masculine in school which is now mostly feminized and geared towards how women learn you are not only punished (a boy was expelled from his grade school for pointing his pop tart threateningly as if it was a gun, another due to a drawing of him beating up a monster) by frequently medicated (over 80% of all children with "learning disabilities" are male.). Then you have the rise of divorce and single mothers that take men out of the home so that these boys grow up not knowing what it means to be a man. It is a sever issue but one that women and society have created. The best men can do is try and choose women properly, maintain the family unit (hard to do since almost all divorces are filed by women who benefit the most from it) and try and show what it means to be a man while not giving into societies demands to feminize them.

[Blitzkrieger]

Anything not to have to raise your own child right? This bullshit avoidant behaviour is weak.

[hellionthesagereborn]

Who said that? I stated the exact opposite, all I stated was that its both men and women. Not that only men are to blame for everything but that women are equally responsible when they divorce or when they choose a mate poorly. If a man chooses a woman whom is clearly only interested in his money and she divorces him the moment that money is gone then he is responsible for that. She is as well but he is not a innocent victim he needs to take responsibility for his poor judgment, the same goes for women who get with men during one night stands and get pregnant then are upset when these men don't stick around, that's her fault as much as the guys. Why do you think women can't do wrong? Do you think they should be allowed to avoid the responsibility of making sure they don't abandon their marriages the moment things stop being perfect?

[ArthurV]

Parenting styles traditionally varied from culture to culture:

In Rome, the 'Mediterranean family' was more common. Fathers, mothers, cousins, uncles, etc. all were joined at the hip. This type of attitude is still common in rural parts of Italy.

In northern Europe, the nuclear family (father and mother raise kids with less help from others) was more common.

In both systems, the fathers had an obligation to see their kids become responsible adults. They would traditionally work long hours while the mother did most of the nurturing (which is very logical since most kids back then were breastfed and men can't do that - so mothers had to stay close to their babies).

However, in the modern world both parenting systems have been broken down by a completely degenerate culture. Many young men really do act like overgrown 14 year olds. And who can blame them? They've been raised by a culture which encourages them to play video games, have fun, and smoke weed.

As a young man, it really is frustrating trying to make mature friends. Most guys in their 20s just want to have fun - they don't want to do anything meaningful with their lives.

[Blitzkrieger]

who can blame them? they are trying to run away of these modern societal expectations of what a man is supposed to be.

[ArthurV]

What I'm saying is that young Western men grow up in a toxic culture and very few are clever enough to see through it.

I am not excusing their behavior, just saying that it's hard to be mad at them when they've been thoroughly brainwashed by the media.

After all, when was the last time you saw a sitcom with a White alpha male father figure? Young Western men are growing up in a culture which attacks their history and - at the same time - tells them that they can be care free and irresponsible. It's an absolutely horrid combination.

[Blitzkrieger]

you can't blame them but you can't excuse them either. every time an issue like this is talked about you see this bullshit kind of avoidant behaviour. and then they keep bitching about why are western birthrates declining.

[ArthurV]

I completely agree.

But the good thing is that there will always be young men who realize something is wrong with the modern West. Natural instinct cannot be suppressed by the media forever.

[Anonymous]

Actually it was traditionally part of being a man to help raise children - primarily as they got older I would say, guiding them towards adulthood.

What happened is we decided that the notions of adulthood men were teaching were sexist. So the last traditional generation just stopped doing it. Instead they either did nothing, or sort of helped mother the kids as well. And that's where we are today.

[Blitzkrieger]

Yeah stuck in a generation of manchildren.

[AleDeEurope]

It's still a man's job, only feminists have made it look like it's a woman's job, cause it helps their agenda of oppressed individuals who are the core of society (LMFAO).
But every sane individual knows it's a man's job to raise the kids too, I mean, just look at the statistics, single mothers are fucking up their kids. A father is necessary for a kid, just as important as the mother.

[Blitzkrieger]

thats true, but many men fell for the feminist notion that in post-industrial societies masculinity had to be revised for the better of men. a man wanting to raise his children according to feminists will fall under 'toxic masculinity' or some other bullshit.

if a woman does not want you to be part of the ultrasounds at the gynecologist, you are not going to be there. if she does not want you while the baby is being delivered, you are not going to be there, and if she doesn't want you involved in the upbringing of the kids its the same, you are not going to be part of their lives.

women are under control of what role a father plays now. its disgusting.

[AleDeEurope]

That's why you should never date feminist idiot. A real woman, a good one, the one every man should strive to marry, will make you part of the pregnancy too. She won't bitch you about how she's the one struggling with the pregnancy so she has ultimate power, cause both of you know that she has more work during pregnancy, no one's denying that, so she doesn't have to remind you all the time. And you both know that without you, she wouldn't be able to make it, cause you're a team.
You want that kind of woman, the type that even though she's the one carrying the kid, still believes you're part of the pregnancy. So she'll want you there during the big moments, like hearing your kid's heatbeat for the first time, or seeing the ultrasound, knowing the gender, and most importantly, she'd want you there for the delivery.

[Browneye57]

Feminism would have you believe that men are not needed for raising children. Studies show that this is simply not the case, that both girls and boys do better with a father.
I think we'll see a trend back to more traditional values - some of this super liberal stuff is just going to go out of style, since it doesn't work and no one is really happy.

[brain5000]

Be whatever kind of man you want. Why do you need to impose your imagined vision of masculinity on the rest of us? Go raise kids if that's what you want to do. We won't judge you -- too bad you can't say the same for the rest of us.

[brain5000]

*oops, I meant "too bad the rest of us can't say the same about you."

[Blitzkrieger]

thats what cucks what you to believe.

[Phoenix98]

It's always been the woman's duty to take care of the kids, the father protects, provides and teaches his children, the mother takes care of and nurtures them.

That's how it has always been.

[Blitzkrieger]

clearly it was not but believe whatever you want.

[Phoenix98]

But it has.

[Jamesol1]

Ok oliver twist.

[Phoenix98]

@Jamesol1 All you have to do is look at history.

[Tarvold]

Men haven't forgotten how to be real men. Men have just made the mistake of listening to what women say they want in a man.

[Blitzkrieger]

this is spot on from what i am reading in a book at this very moment lol.

[gobsmacked3]

the term 'real man' is ambiguous that is dependent on self- your definition would differ to mine but lacking no credibility for it is all about self appraisal

[Blitzkrieger]

Do you not know the meaning of these " " or did i use them wrong?

[gobsmacked3]

it is why i used the term ambiguous for it is all on how you define 'real'

[Blitzkrieger]

you are the one writing an entire mytake that a man is not a real man if he hits a woman. you are really not in a position to criticize my sarcastic title, because thats what it is.

[gobsmacked3]

not criticising you, just making the point that all define it differently

[Words_and_Wisdom]

First problem I noticed is that you think there is such thing as a 'real' man.

[Blitzkrieger]

why do you think i wrote "real" between these things?

[Anonymous]

Men have been men for thousands of years then women decided they wanted to taste power and money and used their seductive strength to lure men into a trap. It was women that changed and society got fucked up because women decided to be the man and women of the house... in doing so... they will loose everything worth living for. Mark my words you bitch hoes... fuck you women. Filth whores

[Chico_brah]

Real men are men who listen to what real men are by other men from the men of gag.

[Other_Tommy_Wiseau]

Men also buttfucked each other on the daily back then... keep that in mind

[Blitzkrieger]

back then, right, because they dont do so now. and in all the time between then and now.

[Other_Tommy_Wiseau]

You buttfuck people? 😂😂😂😂

[Blitzkrieger]

no i dont.

[Other_Tommy_Wiseau]

So what was your point?

[Blitzkrieger]

that gay sex never went away.

[Other_Tommy_Wiseau]

Most straight men now and for the better part of 2000 years don't/didn't buttfuck adolescent boys...

[Blitzkrieger]

lol thats what you think. you dont know what happens behind closed doors.

[Other_Tommy_Wiseau]

Trust me, those doors were open 😂😂😂

[Other_Tommy_Wiseau]

Ok, Brian Williams...

[blondfrog]

Roman men also used to kiss each other as greeting there was also gay sex even at that time.

[Blitzkrieger]

What a compelling argument.

[blondfrog]

As opposed to yours?

[Blitzkrieger]

Quite so yeah actually.

[blondfrog]

You are so wise

[ThisDudeHere]

Times change, sadly.

[Anonymous]

Why do people keep complaining about "real men"

[Omar5881]

I blame macdonalds