Is The British Flag Racist?

[ladsin]

Yes, of course it is.

No, it's not that's just silly.

Other

Updates

+1 y

Yes I’m aware the first isn’t the British flag, I picked that video because the argument is the same for both being racist. That was just the first video to come up when I googled it.

I also know that the picture of the flag is missing the St Patty cross. I just typed Union Jack into google images and that was one of the pictures that came up. I don’t pay attention when copy-pasting it.

[nightdrot]

The short answer is "No," but of course, we live in the age of the symbology of symbols. So people invest in symbols the meaning that they choose - as opposed to the one that the maker of that symbol intended - and then proceed to respond according to that subjective understanding.

In the case of the British flag, it was originally intended to reflect the diversity of the United Kingdom. The UK is a "creedal nation." That is a country united by adherence to a common idea or ideas - a "nation dedicated to a proposition" to borrow from Mr. Lincoln.

In Britain's case it is a country in with English, Scots, Welsh and Protestant Irish are united by "loyalty to the Crown." The Crown itself representing not just the monarch but certain ideas that attach to the Crown. (This as distinct from say, Germany for example. A country in which people are united by their common language or nationality.)

The British flag is an amalgam of the English flag - the Cross of St. George - and the Scottish flag - the Cross of St. Andrew, and including the colors from the flags of all four British nationalities. Thus, one would think that it represents diversity - not racism. (Racism is also a problem of definitions. It is NOT the same as "bigotry." The former is an ideology, the latter a bias.)

So then people point to the British Empire as an example of the racism the British flag supposedly represents. This ignores the fact that the empire was, as someone once said, "acquired in a fit of absent mindedness." It was not assembled as an ideological imperative, but rather as an accidental outgrowth of British efforts to trade with the world.

No matter, when the empire was dissolved - and there are still fourteen territories that actually want to remain colonies, as indeed no doubt Hong Kong would have loved to remain one as against what it has now - the Commonwealth was born. The head of the Commonwealth being the British monarch, British flag and all.

The Commonwealth, under the SYMBOLIC - there is that word again - headship of the Queen, is so racist that Mozambique, a sub-Sahrana (read "black") African country that was never a British colony, asked to be allowed, and was subsequently allowed, to join. It was allowed to do so only if it pledged to improve its human rights record, by the way.

Bottom line, racism just ain't what it used to be.

[ladsin]

"Bottom line, racism just ain't what it used to be." Ain't that the truth.

[Aynsof]

Well the fellow who dislikes the English flag has some good valid points but he is in my opinion still wrong
He equates it to the confederate flag in the US and while I get his point they aren't equals as we are taking about a national flag with several hundred years of history compared to a battle standard used by an army on the losing side of a civil war
Not equal and not a good comparison
His arguments have two sides the current usage and the historical usage
The current usage honestly is the stronger of his arguments and is where the comparison with the confederate flag comes into play
There is no doubt that the usage of the English flag the St. George's Cross that is in the video not the Union Jack in the picture is a symbol widely used by by the skinhead hooligan racist types in England same as the confederate flag is widely used by racists in the US
But one is a national flag and has legitimate usage that has nothing to do with race the other does not really have any legitimate use
However I think in most official functions the Union Jack will be the flag used anyway? But St. George's Cross remains the official proper flag of England where Union Jack is the flag of Great Britain
If it was decided not to officially use the English flag it would not stop the racist types from using it if anything it would likely solidify their usage of it
There is then the historical usage and he mentions the crusades it was not used as a flag there as it wasn't a flag yet it became the flag after the English knights who fought in the crusades wore garments with St. George's Cross on it but maybe that is just nitpicking but a thousand years ago is that really relevant any longer? British imperialism and colonialism is more relevant and more recent and certainly full of horrors but would it not predominantly have been the Union Jack or it's predecessor that would have been flown? I think it is not specifically St. George's Cross that would be the symbol there
So yes he does have some points but he is also a bit off target on some of them and ultimately I think he is wrong even if he is wrong for good reasons

[ladsin]

What do you mean by “does not really have any legitimate use“?

[Aynsof]

I mean that it is not an actual flag of any current proper organisation entity or nation it is a battle standard of an army on the losing side on a civil war that was quite a while ago
The English flag by contrast is still the current proper English flag it is the flag that denotes England the confederate flag does not denote anything currently in existence

[ladsin]

Ok, so you think the only legitimate uses for flags are to represent nations that are currently around. You wouldn’t for example consider the palistinian flag as legitimate?

[Aynsof]

Not just nations but organisations and entities as well
The European Union has a flag for example
The Palestine flag I would say has a legitimate use as they are if not a nation then at least trying to be one it is a specific active grouping
Now a flag like say the one of the empire of Austria-Hungary no longer has a legitimate use or that of Yugoslavia and a great number of other flags
Mind you when I say no legitimate use I mean outside of teaching history they will always have a place there

[ladsin]

Well, would you think it ok for a Slav to fly a Yugoslavian flag then? I think people use flas to represent something, a sense of identity, unity, and for political reasons (ie the people who fly the confederate flag tend to want more states rights). I think those are valid uses, but it seems we disagree on that point?

[Aynsof]

I don't really see Slavs wanting to most of them don't think too kindly about those days when they were forced to be nice to each other when they really hate each other
But that is maybe specific to that one
I don't think it is a good reason to fly flags representing things that are gone
I am not advocating outlawing it or anything it just seems... Stupid
If it is an actual symbol of something active it would be different if there was actual real movement or organization who used it as their official symbol it would be different
But it is not

[ladsin]

Alrighty thanks

[Anonymous]

Yes the union Jack also known internationally as the butchers apron is a historic symbol of theft, rape and genocide.

[ladsin]

Lol.

[Historylover18]

So it was once used as a symbol of atrocities which makes it racist even though the creation of the flag was when England and Scotland molded into one kingdom and was made to represent that unity?

Just because racists use it doesn't mean they define the meaning

[Opinion Owner]

@Historylover18 Under this flag millions died. This is the flag of British empire and colonialism. Its Like flying the swastika or confederate flag.

[Historylover18]

And under the Soviet Union, Turkish, and half the flags in existence there was mass repression genocide and persecution. That wasn't the initial purpose of the flags.

In a province of my country, there was a group called the Proud Boys who were flying the Canadian Red Ensign as a Confederate battle flag, and telling immigrants to leave. When I saw this happening I was mad they were attempting to turn a piece of history into a symbol of racism. Why? Under that flag, the Canadians liberated the Netherlands and Belgium from the oppression of Nazi Germany. If a Dutchman from WW2 saw that flag waving in the breeze he would start crying tears of joy, and would probably be just as mad as I was that people were trying to turn what was a symbol of liberty and freedom for the Dutch and Belgians into a symbol of oppression.

[Historylover18]

Should we ban the first stanza of the German anthem because Hitler used it even though that was never the intention of the song? Or should we ban the Russian flag because of the crimes of Russia in Ukraine? How about we ban the Hindu swastika because the Nazis used a swastika. I'm part Irish. My ancestors suffered at the hands of the British, but I wouldn't want to do away with the flag because that was never the purpose of the flag's creation. If we continue to add modernist and post-modernist views to historical symbols, we won't have history

[Historylover18]

I remember Crusaders marching through the Middle East with crosses on their banners so why not ban those too?

[goaded]

@Historylover18 Nobody sings the first stanza any more. The official Anthem is the third, and I'm not sure about the legal status of the first. The third is the best:

"Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit
Für das deutsche Vaterland!
Danach lasst uns alle streben
Brüderlich mit Herz und Hand!
Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit
Sind des Glückes Unterpfand;
Blüh' im Glanze dieses Glückes,
Blühe, deutsches Vaterland!"

"Unity and justice and freedom
For the German fatherland!
Towards these let us all strive
Brotherly with heart and hand!
Unity and justice and freedom
Are the foundation of happiness;
Flourish in the radiance of this happiness,
Flourish, German fatherland!"

[Historylover18]

I know but it's not actually banned

[Opinion Owner]

@goaded a 3rd of the world's population was enslaved under the butchers apron, we don't fly the swastika flag so why fly this?

[ladsin]

maybe you don't.

[TimeSplittersxvc]

So what country do you come from then? USA? What about all their illegal wars other the years. I think we should spit on the Star spangled banner, urinate on it, wipe our arses on it and burn it.

[Opinion Owner]

@TimeSplittersxvc Why not, it's so much worse than the confederate flag.

[TimeSplittersxvc]

That is what i do to the Yank flag.

[Historylover18]

@TimeSplittersxvc I think you actually have the Constitutional right to do that since it's a protest of the government

[AlexanderBrunnrgaard]

As if all flags doesn't have blood in their history, grow up!

[Opinion Owner]

@AlexanderBrunnrgaard it is known as the butchers apron for a reason.

[witherwing]

What isn't racist in today's society. 🙄 People like to get offended by anything these days.

[Ghost285]

Typical cracka comment

[grega239]

typical whatever racial slur response 😁

[madhatters4]

some may utilize or appropriate for a cause that is racist. it doesn't make the flag racist. the flag is a flag. objects cannot exert personal feelings. but they can be appropriated by people to represent a sentiment.

the swastika symbol. it has no personal convictions but is sanskrit for well wishings. of course it was appropriated for a much different purpose

obviously the English flag is not at that level but people should be concerned when people fly a flag for reasons that may not represent it's intent

[Cammy137]

A flag is a flag. It only has as much meaning as people apply to it.

[JimRSmith]

They're arguing about the St George's cross, which isn't the British flag. It's the English flag, commonly seen flying from churches, and other such places which that mixed race dingbat would probably claim are "exclusive" and "oppressive".

In your picture below, however, you have a flag that became obsolete in 1801 (it doesn't include the St Patrick's cross). You do see that flag in loyalist areas of Canada, but that's about it, these days...

[ladsin]

The Union Jack is the national flag of the UK. I don’t know why you mean when you say it became obsolete.

I know about St George’s, it was just the first video that came up when I typed “British flag racist” in YouTube. I figured it would get the idea across as the arguments are pretty much the same for both flags being racist.

[JimRSmith]

The version in your picture became obsolete in 1801. As I stated, it doesn't include the St Patrick's cross.

It's obsolete in the same way a 48 star American flag is obsolete.

[ladsin]

Eh, I just googled Union Jack. It must’ve pulled up the wrong version.

[N192K001]

As written in another post (with editing), it can be to some and not to others:
「Flags, like other things in communication, are meaningless symbols. It's the meaning attached to them by the viewer that gives them meaning.

For example, the swastika is seen as a symbol of hate in the West because of Hitler and this experience has been associated with the symbol.

In the East, it's a symbol of good luck associated with Ganesha (Hindu god of luck) and Buddha, whose religion branched out of Hinduism.

The symbols may be identical (or mirrored), but many (except Hindus and Buddhists) generally don't recognize the flipping, but the ideas attached will still be attached, merited or not.

The same seems to be the case for the "Confederate flag" (and the English flag) in that Southerners (and Englishmen) who love the flag attach a wholly different set of ideas to it, than do others with no affinity to it. 」

So, it can be… not not, depending on the viewer and what ideas the viewer attaches to it.

[Tron5678]

Mum is British and Dad is Indian. Brits ruled India for more than 200 years and they robbed and were exploited but that is in the past and Indians don't want their past affect their future and their current relationship with UK for the future We adopted lot of ideologies and the English language. I respect both flags and your question and you actually asking us if it's racist is SILLY!

[ladsin]

Apparently some brits think it’s a racist flag.

[Tron5678]

and those Brits are NPC snowflakes.

[Ecco939]

K so about the video, the concept that the man in the chair is spouting is rubbish. The first crusade in 1095 was fought due to the Christian Byzantine empire coming under threat by Muslim Seljuk Turks. The ottoman empire expansion is another reason for the crusades. The idea that you can throw rasisim around to pursuade others is foolish as is the statement of "your ancestors tried to enslave my ancestors". After all the ancestors of the guy in the chair were likely part of the ottoman empire which had a legal slave trade in which both African and eastern European slaves were common. Byzantium on the other hand had by this point in history replaced the slavery concept with semi feudal and serfdom concepts.

[NoxWriter22]

Flags can't be racist. They are flags. People are racist. This is so frustrating. Why does everything have to be racist or offensive. Why are we on this constant search for the bad? Would we cut down a tree because it was used to unfairly hang people of a specific race 200 years ago?

[CountessSarah]

But... All flags are 'adopted' by the far right. This is a problem of nationalists of all stripes, and is in no way a problem specific to Britain.

[Aynsof]

Now that is also an excellent point
The far right nationalists will use any symbols that are recognized as symbols for their nation
Shame on whoever disliked this

[goaded]

@Aynsof Hell, a major German retailer was considering dropping Lonsdale sportswear because it was favoured by right-wing dickheads (it includes the letters "NSDA").

They now actively counter racism.

[Aynsof]

@goaded
Oh that is interesting
German businesses are quite touchy about being connected to such things generally so it is not surprising that such a thing happens there

[Lillyroses234]

I'm Indian and my country was colonized by the British for 200 years.
I don't care about the flag but don't deny your history.

[ladsin]

Who's denying history?

[Lillyroses234]

I was just making a point. People like to forget what the UK has done in the past.

[ladsin]

Well that’s true with everyone. I don’t see many Indians being extremely excited about the old casket system. I don’t see “native” Americans reveling in human sacrifice, or the Jews in genocides 😂

[grega239]

true. lets not forget that britain was the first to make slavery illegal. not only that, they forced the world to do it aswell. go google west africa squadron

[OnlyYouKnowThat]

British colonisation vastly improved India and improved the standard of living for millions of Indians.

[Waffles731]

@ladsin
Only certain tribes of Native Americans practiced human sacrifice and they were generally in mexico or south of.
Slavery was similar, only a handful of tribes practiced it

[ladsin]

@Waffles731 I’m not disagreeing. Not all Europeans colonized everything either.

[Waffles731]

Yes but to be frank the Rape of the New World and Africa was far far more widespread among Europe than Slavery and Human sacrifice was amongst the People of The New World

[ladsin]

@Waffles731 hard to say. We know that many if not most religions called for human sacrifice in antiquity.

[joanofarcher]

What the fuck are you talking about? Brits can't scratch their nuts without hearing about how the gesture has "problematic implications dating back to colonialism and slavery". Your country on the other hand engages in horrific persecution of its Muslim minority to this day. And no one bats an eye.

[Waffles731]

@joanofarcher being brutal colonizers of like a fifth of the world isn't something to ignore, its worth nothing they engaged in the American Indian Wars, all the Native tribes in my area were completely subjugated before America was even a country, and they fought the Plains Indians in Canada as well

[joanofarcher]

@Waffles731 What is your point? Every civilization throughout human history has practiced slavery, and genocide. Many still do to this day. And that is very literally ignored by people like you. I doubt you can even tell me where it happens without looking it up. Yet you can enumerate crimes of white Europeans from over a century ago.

[Waffles731]

@joanofarcher a. Not every single civilization has practiced slavery, slavery was very limited in the new world, most restricted to Mexico and below or a couple tribes in the coast of the pacific northwest.
B. Crimes of a century ago, how about crimes of now. Europeans are still fucking over Africa, how about Margaret Thatcher's (You know British Reagan) son financing a coup staged by British mercenaries in 2004 in Equatorial Guinea.
How about Private Military Companies wiping out villages because some European Mining company wants the minerals, how about the Belgian Diamond Trade, how about the fact that France literally never left Africa and right now have openly deployed their military backed by the British and Canadians claiming to be an anti terror group when really French companies have lots of assets in the area.
Give me a break, Europeans never stopped raping africa

[Waffles731]

@joanofarcher but despite what white nationalists and other assorted idiots like to consider, America ain't Europe and doesn't need to fucking act like a butcher and repeat their crimes

[joanofarcher]

@Waffles731 Yes, just about every civilization HAS practiced slavery in one form or another. From Ancient Egypt to the Roman Empire to Genghis Kahn to the Ottoman and Trans Atlantic Slave Trades to present day Mauritania. by the way that includes many indigenous tribes of the precolonial era.
Now you're talking about the attempted coup against one of the most brutal, corrupt and oppressive governments in Africa. Don't worry dude, Margaret Thatcher's son was convicted for his role in that incident and the monstrous government of Equatorial Guinea is free to continue its atrocious abuses of human rights, which I suspect you are either ignorant of or generally ok with based on the melanin levels of those responsible. Your seem to have a very myopic view of both history and current events wherein only white Europeans can do wrong. I don't know if that's because of some subconscious assumption that they should be the ones "know better" or if you've just spent too much at University. Either way, it is a twisted and implicitly racist worldview. I encourage you to travel the world, and broaden your perspective. Stop listening to your ignorant professors. These matters are far more complex than can be taught in a classroom.

[Waffles731]

@joanofarcher yeah Mark Thatcher got convicted and FINED, no prison time and yeah lets not pretend his motive was altrustic in the slightest when he openly made deals with oil companies for it

[Waffles731]

@joanofarcher and again, slavery was very limited in the north america but again you don't care about actual facts,

[joanofarcher]

@Waffles731 I can't imagine what type of childlike worldview one would have to possess to think that altruism plays any role in geopolitics. That is naïve to a point of absurdity. My point is that you're bitching about an attempted coup against one of the most corrupt, murderous and oppressive governments in the world simply because some white people happened to be implicated in it. That tells me all I need to know about your worldview. Why would you want a government like that to remain in power? How many of the African people you claim to care so much about have been wrongfully imprisoned, tortured, murdered, deprived of healthcare, education and economic freedom by that government? Do you even know? Don't bother answering. I've dealt with your kind ad nauseam and I know you won't let facts get in the way of a good virtue signal; not where there's white privilege to be checked!
And just to clarify, slavery as it was practiced by Europeans (buying and selling of forced labor) may have been somewhat limited amongst the indigenous tribes but the taking of concubines from the vanquished tribes as well as the imprisonment and torture of its survivors was common practice. Honestly, just read about some of the practices they engaged in before extolling their virtue relative to the Europeans. It might just be eye opening for you.

[Waffles731]

@joanofarcher i know quite a bit about the practices, and the fact is africa is the way it is because a bunch of europeans decided to rape pillage and burn africa then left it in mess only interfering where it benefited there interests, equatorial guinea is the way it is due ot the collasal fucking mess the fucking Spanish left.

[joanofarcher]

@Waffles731 Yup. After 40 minutes I'm sure you know everything Wikipedia has to say about it. And even found a way to blame white colonialism. Using your logic I could almost definitely find a way to blame the Huns for present day economic trends in India.

[OldSchool_Metalhead]

At this point everything is racist. Someone may even see this comment and think its racist lmao

[OldSchool_Metalhead]

@Modell054 lol XD

[roaring20sman]

Anything and everything that has to deal with white people's culture is racist... didn't you get the memo? 😂😂😂😂

[ladsin]

I read the UN's position yes XD

[RIVERTAY888]

nope but l hate them as l want independence for scotland

[ladsin]

Freedddooommm!

[RIVERTAY888]

Magic we will have independence very soon

[ladsin]

I’m a half breed so I want it for the Scotts and the Irish. “do dhúiche bhreá i seilbh meirleach
's tú díolta leis na Gallaibh.”

[RIVERTAY888]

Fantastic love it

[JimRSmith]

Not happening. There was something called a vote, and 'indy' lost. Handsomely.

[RIVERTAY888]

@JimRSmith Wait and see we will soon be free

[JimRSmith]

Scotland is 'free'.

[ladsin]

@JimRSmith yeah but if they’re going to do a record for brexit then so can we 😂

[RIVERTAY888]

@JimRSmith l dont think so and we want to stay in the euro zone l have nothing against the English

[JimRSmith]

Who's 'we'? You're American, aren't you?

[JimRSmith]

You're not in the euro zone. You really don't have much grasp on the facts, do you?

[RIVERTAY888]

@JimRSmith l am 100% scottish l stay in the north of scotland look at my profile

[ladsin]

@JimRSmith yeah buddy it was a joke. I’m as American as hot dogs and herpes. I do know that many are calling for a revote on Brexit though.

[JimRSmith]

That clearly doesn't mean you're able to understand and use the facts to pull together an argument. We get it. You're an anti-English bigot.

[RIVERTAY888]

@JimRSmith l dont think so l have family in england you dont even know me to be saying that lolhave a nice day

[JimRSmith]

The people who want that aren't believers in the democratic process, however. They'd run that vote again, and again, until they got the 'right' result, if they could.

[RIVERTAY888]

@JimRSmith Yes very true

[JimRSmith]

You said, at the top of this very post "nope but I hate them".

Case closed.

[ladsin]

This was productive.

[RIVERTAY888]

love scotland for ever

[madgoat]

The argument appears to be that the British have previously waged wars, and fascists have used the flag, therefore the flag is a racist symbol.
It's a stretch.

[goaded]

I've not watched the video, but I suspect you need to learn the difference between the English and the British flags.

[ladsin]

The arguments are the same for both being racist so I just picked that one because it was the first to come up. I know the second is the wrong flag. I typed “Union Jack” into google and that picture came up, I wasn’t paying all that much attention when I just copy-pasted it.

[Waffles731]

In England no, the Argument could be made if flown in India or Africa it is due to historical context

[tartaarsaus]

Yes. This is the proper non-racist flag

[ladsin]

Lol.

[FatherJack]

... Coming soon !!

[AlexanderBrunnrgaard]

No. And anyone who thinks so is incompetent beyond belief. There's really no need to say anything else, this isn't a complex subject.

[ROCKS128]

I wonder what has gotten into people these days?😂😂

[BobbyC65]

I like the British Flag who ever thank the British Flag is RACIST THEIR RACIST THEM SELF.

[InTimoreDei]

It's a flag that represents everything I hate. British imperialism stole my language (Gaelic), my surnames, and butchered my people. May it burn in Hell.

[ladsin]

Ireland is doing a fine job of destroying its culture on its own. Dhíol tú ár dtalamh d'eachtrannaigh. That said I have no qualms with ousting the black and tans, but how about we take care of our own first -.-