I agree. Whoever is the strongest protects the weakest. I think that’s just natural human decency. But what women don’t like is being belittled for being women when they’re quite capable, and equally better than men in some areas. It should be about working together in a team and complimenting each other’s strengths and weaknesses. Not making out one sex is superior (which is what many men (not all) did very frequently not too long ago).
Yes. Too many guys out here simping, putting random women on pedestals, and giving them treatment that they haven't earned. Treat them like you would a guy until they prove they should be treated better.
I need constant protection from men that don't understand boundaries. I need protection from me that are not my partner who think it's appropriate to make comments on my body. I think it's inappropriate to be touched without permission.
@lilyanony1 You raise two, TOTALLY separate issues, here. Yes, if someone is in danger of dying, I would do anything I can, short of killing myself to help them, male or female. Of course, if there were kids, they would come first! As for your own issues with men, and 'boundaries', I think you need to talk with some trustworthy male friends, and find out what you are doing, NOT KNOWING, that makes those douchebags think that they can act in a way that offends you. Not saying it is your fault, but sometimes a douchebag guy needs a solid kick to the groin, to get the message. Can you do that?
A make colleague at work just started it was his first day, he was nervous and making mistakes. He apologisized. We ran late I told him it was OK as he was getting familiar with new systems. He divulged that he is divorced and his wife was unkind, he said working 7 days a week means he can't find anyone noone wants to date him, so I said "I'm sure there's someone out there for you, there is someone for everyone" I was being polite, also I thought it was OK since he was clearly feeling comfortable/uncomfortable. He asked me about the local area, where to get lunch etc so I guided him, he then suggested we go to eat once we come out of lockdown so I said that's very kind maybe we can invite the weekend working staff to celebrate. Over the few weeks He kept running late by wanting to talk in between so I would shut him down. At times he sit just looking at my breast so I would start taking to him or ask him whether I had something on my top to remind him, we were at work.
The following week I changed my bra to a sports one to flatten everything, he said "oh you changed?" "what exactly have I changed?" (stern tone) "oh I'm mistaken I forget where I am, I work 7days different places sometimes I forget" I needed to ask him something to which I was told to do so by staff, when I blurted out "I needed to ask you something" he said "are you going to ask me on a date?" no I made sure he could see and hear my disgust through the mask and I said "No! Don't be ridiculous" I'm careful of how I speak to people at work because people have been sabotaging me which isn't cool and obviously it's due to job survival but I straight told my manager. When I was working with someone else he tried to talk to me in passing so I told him "can't chat really busy" and rushed off. We worked together one more week despite asking not to during which he decided he wanted to offer me a hug and I shouted no. I didn't engage in conversation, to which I would ask whether he needed help with anything then would leave the room. Because I've done this, last weekend he went out his way to try and speak to me. I was bending over and he came up behind me and said "hello" obviously I jumped. Another time he asked me why I didn't say good morning to him. So I told him my colleague responded and I was busy rushing as you could see, I thought you understood. The next step would be to tell he is inappropriate, he said he was leaving in June so I thought this would be enough.
During this period of time people have been saying how unkind others are including myself having lost a parent. Noone cares. Or cared enough to understand what im dealing with I have to work to survive and my job is essential so I can't take time out. Anyways showing people especially men compassion just seems make them think I'm into them. I was just being a decent member of staff. Especially when my other manager was unhelpful and basically threw him in the deep end without showing him things to get on.
Why don't we just un-sexist it the other way? Why don't we just encourage women to be chivalrous to men as well? That might fix the problem in a constructive way rather than destructive.
@Vetis even assuming that were true (which it is not), why would women starting to be chivalrous to men, mean that men would have to start being anything different than we are now?
@Vetis wait, do you mean you think men are chivalrous to women because we pity them? So in order to recieve chivalry men would need to be pitied by women, and the only way to do that is to become wives because wives are the most unfortunate things to be and women are already on that level? Or did I hopefully just misunderstand you, but I can't make sense of what you're saying any other way.
@Vetis how? Physically weaker? That's because as you said they are designed to further the species. One of us has to be able to grow a baby and the other has to be able to protect them while they do it. And it turns out women got to be the ones who grow the babies. Men being physically stronger is so we can protect the future of humanity that we wouldn't even have without women.
@Vetis I don't have any little mutants yet cause I haven't got her pregnant yet. But yes, aside from the environment and other animals, I would be protecting them from other humans, including you. Fortunately most humans don't have any reason or desire to hurt other people's children at this point in the development of the species.
@Vetis sorry but you keep saying these things that you see the connection but I don't see any of the connections so could you please explain? how does Hitler have to do with this?
10.1K opinions shared on Society & Politics topic.
The problem is that sexism like any other "ism" isn't always overt or fully intended.
Yes there are r/niceguys and r/nicegirls but most people do not go out there way to target the opposite sex in every scenario.
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Anonymous
(36-45)
+1 y
It doesn't matter what you or anyone one else thinks "should be encouraged" or "should be discouraged. What you're calling "benevolent sexism" or what normal people would call "chivalry" is known to biology and nature -- a. k. a. REALITY -- as a "successful mating strategy." And so it shall continue.
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Anonymous
(30-35)
+1 y
Depends, do they expect equality?
I’ve said this often on question about things like who pays on a date. The reality is that all that equality rhetoric was about changing all the things they didn’t like and keeping all the things they did. It had little to do with equality or gender roles. It’s about boobs for women.
You can tell from the pole, most want to be treated differently, not equally.
The thing about benevolent sexism is that it is still sexism and a gateway for worse kinds. The above examples of chivalry still promote women as weak and that we need constant protection.
Benevolent sexism and chivalry are the same thing.
It doesn't promote women as weak. We already know you are weak. Do you realize how huge the physical strength difference there is between men and women?
@grega239 perhaps once and perhaps sometimes this will happen. I think the point is that sexism implies that it is always the case that women are defenseless. I have studied self-defense specifically for women because yes most women cannot overpower a man but it doesn't mean a that is the only way to fight back.
Chivalry is sexism by definition. Sexism is discrimination based on sex. Chivalry is a code of conduct that states that men are obligated to help a woman.
Men don't offer their coats or jackets to men do we? I'm not gonna help a man pick up 20 kgs because it's not hard to do for a man.
Unless you train to defend yourself or have a weapon for that purpose, you are defenless. I know it sucks to hear , but you're gonna have to accept this fact.
And hey, I'm not too find of going out of my way to spare women such inconveniences as opening doors, and lift things that are heavy for women and all that. But I, like a lot of other men, have been borderline brainwashed as kids that it's the right thing to do because we are men and to not do those things makes us lesser men.
Maybe instead of complaining how it's sexist and makes women look weak (which it doesn't) you should be greatful that you're afforded these privileged simply for being female
Then what about men? Some strange man has to die because your valued by society more? To get this kind of privilege comes some kind of responsibility. Men should get something out of the deal for being less important...
I should restate that. Your prioritizing kids over adults and I agree. But if that’s the save he have better luck grabbing the kid and running then dragging you along.
When your husbands not there... you just gonna die or do you want a man to jump in and fulfill his role? I agree with your side I’m playing devils advocate. Why should you and your kids lives be more important just because he has a penis?
They are important because we would give our lives for them. I agree if he could take one and I take the other that’s the beat chance. We would send our kids off without us if we had to but they need an adult. They won’t survive on their own. They are too young.
I think he forgets that women died in childbirth time and time over to have his children. Most men have that natural instinct. Just like women are prone to nurture. I guess some just don’t.
@lives2learn your children are a good point though. Their the future. Do you want your son growing up being taken advantage of because he’s a man and society has expectations of him while not of women to balance it all out? What about your daughter? Do you want her to die alone because more and more men just don’t want to commit because of the dangers of getting involved with the opposite gender outweighing the benefits several fold?
I prefer a society where women care and men protect not just where couples look out for each other because the fact is... today’s woke women provide nothing to a good quality man to incentivize him to say fight or die for them.
Biologically, men are more expendable than women. One healthy male can impregnate multiple women. Social ideas and attitudes are as ruled by social evolution as physical traits are ruled by biological evolution. The traits that lead to the most reproduction tend to persist.
Also biologically women are weaker and need a man to protect them from the works. Take away welfare and police and see which sex survives. They dropped a group of women on one island and a group of men on a different island for the same time with the same time. The men succeeded abs the women had all kinds of failure. Look up the video and understand is society that men but that allows women to act like their better.
@love2learn are men incapable of caring for children?
I love how you hold traditional expectations of men but not yourself. When it benefits you, tradition must stay, but otherwise you abandon it without a moments hesitation. If you're gunna make this traditional argument then at least be a traditional woman. Like you make the bullshit argument of pretending like women are the only ones who can care for kids, but also you don't think women should be working full time instead of raising and caring for kids.
@devilman666 you are taking what I said completely out of context. What I’m saying is if I were to send my children off away from me I would need to know they would be cared for.
At this point, feminists can go fuck themselves. I'm tired of bitches wanting to make anything men do some sort of "aggression". Fucking idiots are just so sexist and hateful they'd forbid men to breathe if they had the opportunity.
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"Benevolent sexism"? Is that what they're calling it now?
Apparently, I went with positive sexism but that's not PC anymore apparently 🤷🏽‍♂️
I agree. Whoever is the strongest protects the weakest. I think that’s just natural human decency. But what women don’t like is being belittled for being women when they’re quite capable, and equally better than men in some areas. It should be about working together in a team and complimenting each other’s strengths and weaknesses. Not making out one sex is superior (which is what many men (not all) did very frequently not too long ago).
So do you protect men or do you assume that as a woman you are weaker? Cause if so... that's sexism.
@devilman666 of course I protect men where I can. I have 3 brothers and make best friends. 🙄
*male but they’re all very protective of me off their own backs.
Yes. Too many guys out here simping, putting random women on pedestals, and giving them treatment that they haven't earned. Treat them like you would a guy until they prove they should be treated better.
I need constant protection from men that don't understand boundaries.
I need protection from me that are not my partner who think it's appropriate to make comments on my body.
I think it's inappropriate to be touched without permission.
But being saved in a life n Death situation id hope any man would help but not use it as an opportunity to be inappropriate
@lilyanony1 You raise two, TOTALLY separate issues, here. Yes, if someone is in danger of dying, I would do anything I can, short of killing myself to help them, male or female. Of course, if there were kids, they would come first!
As for your own issues with men, and 'boundaries', I think you need to talk with some trustworthy male friends, and find out what you are doing, NOT KNOWING, that makes those douchebags think that they can act in a way that offends you. Not saying it is your fault, but sometimes a douchebag guy needs a solid kick to the groin, to get the message. Can you do that?
A make colleague at work just started it was his first day, he was nervous and making mistakes. He apologisized. We ran late I told him it was OK as he was getting familiar with new systems. He divulged that he is divorced and his wife was unkind, he said working 7 days a week means he can't find anyone noone wants to date him, so I said "I'm sure there's someone out there for you, there is someone for everyone" I was being polite, also I thought it was OK since he was clearly feeling comfortable/uncomfortable.
He asked me about the local area, where to get lunch etc so I guided him, he then suggested we go to eat once we come out of lockdown so I said that's very kind maybe we can invite the weekend working staff to celebrate. Over the few weeks He kept running late by wanting to talk in between so I would shut him down. At times he sit just looking at my breast so I would start taking to him or ask him whether I had something on my top to remind him, we were at work.
The following week I changed my bra to a sports one to flatten everything, he said "oh you changed?" "what exactly have I changed?" (stern tone) "oh I'm mistaken I forget where I am, I work 7days different places sometimes I forget"
I needed to ask him something to which I was told to do so by staff, when I blurted out "I needed to ask you something" he said "are you going to ask me on a date?" no I made sure he could see and hear my disgust through the mask and I said "No! Don't be ridiculous"
I'm careful of how I speak to people at work because people have been sabotaging me which isn't cool and obviously it's due to job survival but I straight told my manager. When I was working with someone else he tried to talk to me in passing so I told him "can't chat really busy" and rushed off.
We worked together one more week despite asking not to during which he decided he wanted to offer me a hug and I shouted no. I didn't engage in conversation, to which I would ask whether he needed help with anything then would leave the room.
Because I've done this, last weekend he went out his way to try and speak to me. I was bending over and he came up behind me and said "hello" obviously I jumped.
Another time he asked me why I didn't say good morning to him.
So I told him my colleague responded and I was busy rushing as you could see, I thought you understood.
The next step would be to tell he is inappropriate, he said he was leaving in June so I thought this would be enough.
During this period of time people have been saying how unkind others are including myself having lost a parent. Noone cares. Or cared enough to understand what im dealing with I have to work to survive and my job is essential so I can't take time out. Anyways showing people especially men compassion just seems make them think I'm into them. I was just being a decent member of staff. Especially when my other manager was unhelpful and basically threw him in the deep end without showing him things to get on.
Why don't we just un-sexist it the other way? Why don't we just encourage women to be chivalrous to men as well? That might fix the problem in a constructive way rather than destructive.
That would mean learning how to be a wife
@Vetis why would it mean that?
Cause women have nothing else to offer the world
@Vetis even assuming that were true (which it is not), why would women starting to be chivalrous to men, mean that men would have to start being anything different than we are now?
B. c. society hasn't been built in a way for men to be generally pitied by women
@Vetis again WHAT would that have to do with men becoming wives OR women being chivalrous to men?
@Vetis wait, do you mean you think men are chivalrous to women because we pity them? So in order to recieve chivalry men would need to be pitied by women, and the only way to do that is to become wives because wives are the most unfortunate things to be and women are already on that level?
Or did I hopefully just misunderstand you, but I can't make sense of what you're saying any other way.
Thats pretty much it.
@Vetis what the fuck are you gay?
you aren't helping your case with that statemtn
@Vetis I can't image how you would ever want to be with a woman since you think so little of them
Women exist for the continuation of the species
@Vetis that even alone sounds like an important position, not one to be pitied.
Theyre pitied because theyre generally inferior
@Vetis how? Physically weaker? That's because as you said they are designed to further the species. One of us has to be able to grow a baby and the other has to be able to protect them while they do it. And it turns out women got to be the ones who grow the babies.
Men being physically stronger is so we can protect the future of humanity that we wouldn't even have without women.
So how are women inferior?
In your goodness you forgot that you're protecting your little mutants from something. Who do you think that is. Me? Possibly
@Vetis I don't have any little mutants yet cause I haven't got her pregnant yet. But yes, aside from the environment and other animals, I would be protecting them from other humans, including you. Fortunately most humans don't have any reason or desire to hurt other people's children at this point in the development of the species.
@Vetis also how does that matter?
Have you never heard of hitler
@Vetis sorry but you keep saying these things that you see the connection but I don't see any of the connections so could you please explain? how does Hitler have to do with this?
@Vetis also you didn't give a reason to why women are inferior. Unless it was just for the reason that I explained did not in fact make them inferior.
The problem is that sexism like any other "ism" isn't always overt or fully intended.
Yes there are r/niceguys and r/nicegirls but most people do not go out there way to target the opposite sex in every scenario.
It doesn't matter what you or anyone one else thinks "should be encouraged" or "should be discouraged. What you're calling "benevolent sexism" or what normal people would call "chivalry" is known to biology and nature -- a. k. a. REALITY -- as a "successful mating strategy." And so it shall continue.
Depends, do they expect equality?
I’ve said this often on question about things like who pays on a date. The reality is that all that equality rhetoric was about changing all the things they didn’t like and keeping all the things they did. It had little to do with equality or gender roles. It’s about boobs for women.
You can tell from the pole, most want to be treated differently, not equally.
The thing about benevolent sexism is that it is still sexism and a gateway for worse kinds. The above examples of chivalry still promote women as weak and that we need constant protection.
Benevolent sexism and chivalry are the same thing.
It doesn't promote women as weak. We already know you are weak. Do you realize how huge the physical strength difference there is between men and women?
Upper body strength difference is about 50%.
@grega239 we aren't talking about biological differences here.
No but biology is why men are supposed to defend women
@grega239 perhaps once and perhaps sometimes this will happen. I think the point is that sexism implies that it is always the case that women are defenseless. I have studied self-defense specifically for women because yes most women cannot overpower a man but it doesn't mean a that is the only way to fight back.
Chivalry is sexism by definition.
Sexism is discrimination based on sex.
Chivalry is a code of conduct that states that men are obligated to help a woman.
Men don't offer their coats or jackets to men do we? I'm not gonna help a man pick up 20 kgs because it's not hard to do for a man.
Unless you train to defend yourself or have a weapon for that purpose, you are defenless. I know it sucks to hear , but you're gonna have to accept this fact.
And hey, I'm not too find of going out of my way to spare women such inconveniences as opening doors, and lift things that are heavy for women and all that. But I, like a lot of other men, have been borderline brainwashed as kids that it's the right thing to do because we are men and to not do those things makes us lesser men.
Maybe instead of complaining how it's sexist and makes women look weak (which it doesn't) you should be greatful that you're afforded these privileged simply for being female
I mean, in an emergency I’m going to be holding my kids. I do think we should be rescued first.
Then what about men? Some strange man has to die because your valued by society more? To get this kind of privilege comes some kind of responsibility. Men should get something out of the deal for being less important...
Men are not less important. I know my husband would make sure the kids and I were ok before himself.
Why should he?
Because our kids are everything to us.
Some other man’s kids mean nothing to me.
I should restate that. Your prioritizing kids over adults and I agree. But if that’s the save he have better luck grabbing the kid and running then dragging you along.
When your husbands not there... you just gonna die or do you want a man to jump in and fulfill his role? I agree with your side I’m playing devils advocate. Why should you and your kids lives be more important just because he has a penis?
They are important because we would give our lives for them. I agree if he could take one and I take the other that’s the beat chance. We would send our kids off without us if we had to but they need an adult. They won’t survive on their own. They are too young.
More important than a stranger I mean.
I think he forgets that women died in childbirth time and time over to have his children. Most men have that natural instinct. Just like women are prone to nurture. I guess some just don’t.
*mens (not his)
And you forget men died fighting for your safety.
@lives2learn your children are a good point though. Their the future. Do you want your son growing up being taken advantage of because he’s a man and society has expectations of him while not of women to balance it all out? What about your daughter? Do you want her to die alone because more and more men just don’t want to commit because of the dangers of getting involved with the opposite gender outweighing the benefits several fold?
I prefer a society where women care and men protect not just where couples look out for each other because the fact is... today’s woke women provide nothing to a good quality man to incentivize him to say fight or die for them.
Biologically, men are more expendable than women. One healthy male can impregnate multiple women. Social ideas and attitudes are as ruled by social evolution as physical traits are ruled by biological evolution. The traits that lead to the most reproduction tend to persist.
@loves2learn So you are a stay at home wife?
Also biologically women are weaker and need a man to protect them from the works. Take away welfare and police and see which sex survives. They dropped a group of women on one island and a group of men on a different island for the same time with the same time. The men succeeded abs the women had all kinds of failure. Look up the video and understand is society that men but that allows women to act like their better.
Your husband would do that because he thinks you and the kids are more important than he is.
Male disposability is a real thing
I agree that kids should be rescued first but not women. You're not a child. Don't put yourself in the same category with kids.
@devilman666 no I work full time.
@apimpnamedslickback who will care for the children? They can’t survive on their own.
@love2learn are men incapable of caring for children?
I love how you hold traditional expectations of men but not yourself. When it benefits you, tradition must stay, but otherwise you abandon it without a moments hesitation. If you're gunna make this traditional argument then at least be a traditional woman. Like you make the bullshit argument of pretending like women are the only ones who can care for kids, but also you don't think women should be working full time instead of raising and caring for kids.
@devilman666 you are taking what I said completely out of context. What I’m saying is if I were to send my children off away from me I would need to know they would be cared for.
@devilman666 furthermore I do work full time.
They wanted equality, that means no special privileges. Time to lean in, buttercup.
Well said.
There's no such thing. Common courtesy is not sexism.
Women want their bread buttered on both sides. Who are we men to disagree?
Me, I disagree, you get butter in one side, that's enough, otherwise we're buttering them up too much. Butter.
In Dave Chappelle's words - "Chivalry is dead, and women killed it" - There is your answer
At this point, feminists can go fuck themselves. I'm tired of bitches wanting to make anything men do some sort of "aggression".
Fucking idiots are just so sexist and hateful they'd forbid men to breathe if they had the opportunity.
The tendency to want to protect women and children is instinctive, not sexist.
Women instinctively protect children too.
I don't know if I'd define it as chivalry, but I can't see why anything benevolent should be discouraged.
No, because it's not sexism to worry about, rescue, or pamper someone you care about.
Benevolent sexism sounds like "I'm a victim because someone wanted to help me". The concept needs to be exposed of its stupidity.