To promote the adaptation of immigrants, for you what is the best solution, assimilation or integration?

[Julie4]

[Losalt]

Integration.
People seem to think that our culture here in the west has reached a peak and can't change for the better, or that other countries cultures is inferior.

They're wrong.
People with other cultures has been proven to increase productivity and more importantly innovation.

Having a diverse group of people increases a societys ability to solve problems.
Up to and including problems that might be civilization threatening.

[Guanfei]

Not welcoming any, first, except for those we really need and can't have by training a local.
And then, it's assimilation. You come in, you blend in, you make the culture, the history, the values yours, and you don't try to keep your own culture.
If you don't, you're sent back and you won't be allowed in as an immigrant again.
And above all, you don't ask the locals to change anything for you.

[Anonymous]

I prefer the Canadian method of just letting them do what they want but having really good public education. It works better in Canada then anywhere else on earth. Second and third generation immigrants still speak their native languages, unlikes in the USA. It’s cool and kind.

[zagor]

Yet a number of immigrants I spoke to in Canada expressed that they wished they had been able to get into the US.

[Opinion Owner]

@zagor lol, I work with immigrants in Canada and the #1 thing I hear is about how happy they got to come to Canada and not the usa, they tell horror stories of the American healthcare system all the time.

[zagor]

Funny, because I have relatives in Canada who buy health insurance in the US so they don't have to wait for health care. And some who were ordered not to go outside during covid - on their rural farm!

[Opinion Owner]

@zagor lol, so why to 96% of Canadians like their healthcare system? Why does nobody want American style healthcare? Not a single party wants that, because they would lose every election. It's the one thing Canadians agree on, free healthcare.

[Losalt]

@zagor
Americans pay as much as Europeans do pr capita for health care through their taxes, and they *also* pay for insurances on top, since the government spending is limited in scope on who can get it.
And then you also pay more even*with* the insurance because it doesn't cover everything, with ambulances hardly ever being "in network" and you being expected to pay a percentage of the cost even with most good insurances.
And to top it off, the actual *quality* of the average US healthcare is only average compared to other western nations, far inferior to many cheaper health care systems on *average*.
You also have fewer options then Europeans do since we often can pick *any* hospitas in the country and often also hospitals in other countries, including the US and be covered by our national health care systems.
And while yes, waiting times on nonessential medical service is usually shorter in the US then in Europe the waiting times for emergency services and *essential* health care is actually shorter in many European countries.
The only thing that the US actually got going for it is that because it's so bloody expensive it can afford to have more specialists on obscure diseases and be the best in the world in those specific areas.
But you're genuinely most of the time better off by going to Europe as a American and non citizen and get health care here and even pay for it out of pocket then to pay for the percentages you pay in the US in a lot of cases in many countries.
Or in other countries, get the healthcare free despite being a non citizen.

[Losalt]

Why is the US healthcare so expensive?
It's not because of better paid health care workers, or better drugs.
And while yes, waiting times is a economic decision and there's *some* European nations with long waiting times in order to save money (but even these will react quickly to anything genuinely important) it's not even that that's *really* causing the costs.

The costs is a combination of a lack of bargaining power for the insurance companies (small ones) and individuals (when uninsured or out of network or you know, unconscious) and just bureaucracy.

With all the paperwork involved in figuring out who's insured by who, proving the costs, billing the right people the right amount etc, and just keeping the hospitals going despite unreliable incomes you end up with more bureaucracy then any state owned hospital has ever achieved anywhere.

[Losalt]

It's such a waste of money.

And the worst part is, your own healthcare workers often can't afford healthcare themselves.
So nurses and ambulance workers being cheered on for working day and night with corona patients, often with inadequate protective equipment have to fear getting sick as they won't get treatment themselves where they work, being uninsured.

[Losalt]

@zagor
Total healthcare costs for Americans would both halve for insurance + taxes combined and also get better on average for all but the billionaires if you made it universal and covered by tax dollars.
And you'd have less issues with people being denied treatment due to costs or stupid things like someone being sick one day too many and therefore losing their job and health care insurance at the same time and therefore not getting treatment for the same disease that caused them to get fired in the first place.

[Losalt]

@zagor
As a European I look at your system as nothing less than criminal and systematic murder and suppression of your working class.
And a huge financial burden of your economy as well.

And given that Americans get bankrupt every day by your health care system anyone who have to deal with your insanity even as a visitor will of *course* make sure that they get insured in the US.
Not because you have a "good" health care system but because they're *terrified* of how bad it is and don't want to fall victims to it.
Even I would get a insurance there despite having health care in the US covered by our country in *some* US hospitals as the thought of ending up in a hospital that's not "in network" for my countrys free healthcare inside the US is *terrifying*.

[zagor]

@Losalt They buy insurance so they can get fast, quality healthcare, which is not always readily available in Canada. They are the ones who say that, I personally have no experience with the system there. Yes, there are places in the US with low-quality healthcare; fortunately I don't live in one of those places.

And yes, immigrants to Canada told me they wish they could have gotten into the US, though I don't think healthcare had anything to do with that.

[menina]

I believe it's integration. As an immigrant myself I believe that immigrants should never forget where they came from but they also should be open to learn the culture, the laws and to respect the people of host country.

[Exterminatore]

If they are legal immigrants, nothing. They can learn how to interact and the ways of their new country this is their duty.


If they are of the illegal variety they should be reintroduced to their own country immediately or simply thrown into the sea and left to fend for themselves. Why should tax payers pay for their transportation back to their own country?

[libsaretards]

Other than semantics there really is no difference. If you move to a country, you become a part of their culture. It is not up to your host country to conform to you, you conform to them.

[Exterminatore]

Exactly.

[Avicenna]

Low levels of immigration so it's easier to integrate and individuals best placed to integrate are the only ones who should be allowed to immigrate

[Massageman]

Post a sharpshooter/sniper every mile along the border. Anyone leaving the country can go. Anyone sneaking across coming in? Target practice time!

[cth96190]

I woul also put heads on pikes along the border, to send the necessary message.

[Massageman]

@cth96190 Nice touch!!! :- )

[SunnyCaliGirl]

You just used two words in your question I need a definition for

[Julie4]

Assimilation is the abandonment of a part of oneself, of one's roots, to adopt the customs, the way of life, the history, the way of thinking of one's new homeland. It is an overriding hierarchy of cultural affiliations and norms.

Integration is an immigrant who works in the country in which they have just arrived, but they continue to live as in their country of origin with these values and culture.

[SunnyCaliGirl]

Thank you for that I really appreciate it

[SunnyCaliGirl]

To answer that question going off what you've given me. I am going to say Its most likey best for immigrants to use Integration because the customs and values are what made them who they are prior to moving to a new country

[Julie4]

No problem. Is good I would say that it depends in which country they arrive and how this country is built.

For example for the USA it seems indeed possible to settle for an integration.

In a country like mine, which has a 15th century history, with its old history, its traditions and its culture, assimilation is more appropriate.

[SunnyCaliGirl]

You make a great point I agree with you on that it depends on the country someone arrived from, like if someone needed to learn the native language if its different from theirs and the new language is needed to survive

[notwoke]

building a wall and sending the ones that are her out at their expense.

[Andres77]

How about people stay in their own country?
Why is that never an option?

[menina]

Believe it or not most people in the world live in their country.
In most cases when someone moves to another place it's not because they want to, it's because they need to.

[Andres77]

@menina
Why do they need to?
War?
In the Ukraine the women moved out with the kids and the men stayed... to fight.
They will rebuild and the wives and kids will go back home.
In Syria the men moved out and the women stayed.
The percentage of rapes as a result of the Syrian immigrant's set new records throughout all of Europe. The Syrian men never plan to go back. They intend to stay and leech off of the rest of the world.
Stay in your own country and fix the problems instead of bringing the shyt problems to other countries.
It's the same stupid pathetic shyt like democrats moving from California because the taxes and crime are so high and still voting democrat wherever they go. They bring the same problems everywhere they go.

[menina]

There are many other reasons why someone leaves their country, war is just one of them. I'm obviously not talking about people who immigrate to cause problems in other countries.
Also some countries have problems that were caused by other nations but I'm not getting there. Anyways, I feel that you won't get my point because you're strongly against immigration.

[Andres77]

@menina I'm not against immigration. I'm all for legal immigration. I'm completely against open borders and shipping of tens of thousands of immigrants to other countries.
We've spent thousands of dollars trying to bring my wife's family to the US just to visit and my own state department denies them entry every time.
If you go through the legal process, welcome!
If you're one of the tens of thousands that are flooding our system then a pox on you.

[menina]

Ok, it sounded like you were against it. I understand your frustration and it's true that some immigrants cause problems. However, we're not all the same and sometimes people can't go through the legal process. Sometimes they don't have money for it and they're trying to escape from poverty, persecution, hunger, violence and war. They're fighting for their lives or for their kid's lives.

[Agagagagaga]

@menina You really believe in this poor huddled masses crap about how every immigrant is some refugee just wanting to make it in the USA honestly... except they can’t be bothered to obey our laws. But hey no sex trafficking is going on across the border. No narco trafficking or cartels doing business. Certainly no criminals would want to come into America. Every. single. poor. precious. immigrant has pure and noble intentions. 🙄

[menina]

@Agagagagaga I'm not going to get into details with you. There are criminals everywhere and you don't have to be an immigrant or a refugee to be a criminal. Believe it or not there are immigrants and refugees who just want to work and have a peaceful life.
Also I'm not talking about the US because I'm not American and the United States is not the only country that has immigrants.

[ManHater]

Conditional Immigration that you have a certain amount of time to learn the language and test or out you go.

[WhiteBoyChill]

We should only accept immigrants who share our values. If they aren’t Christian I have no interest in them

[007kingifrit]

only assimilation works. anything else eventually leads to war and genocide

[DiegoO]

Acceptance and inclusion.

[OddBeMe]

Is there really a difference beyond semantics?

[Julie4]

@OddBeMe Yes there is a huge difference. Assimilation is the abandonment of a part of oneself, of one's roots, to adopt the customs, the way of life, the history, the way of thinking of one's new homeland. It is an overriding hierarchy of cultural affiliations and norms.

Integration is an immigrant who works in the country in which they have just arrived, but they continue to live as in their country of origin with these values and culture.

[OddBeMe]

I look up both definitions and neither have wording like “abandonment”. An immigrant can assimilate and keep their culture. It’s not mutually exclusive. Again semantics…

[Julie4]

Not, impossible. Assimilation is adopting the culture of your new country.

Example : if there were Spanish immigrants, their stories should no longer be Charles V or Franco, but Napoleon, Joan of Arc etc. Here is how he explains himself these foreigners who have become assimilated, The homeland is the land of the fathers. There are fathers according to the flesh and fathers according to the spirit ” “I am what is called an assimilated Jew. As a child, I cried over the misfortunes of France at Waterloo or Sedan, not while listening to the destruction of the Temple. No other flag than the tricolor, no other hymn than La Marseillaise will ever wet my eyes ”, Raymond Aron this

I'm not of French origin but Spanish, that's why I took the example of Spain here.

Note: this does not mean denying your religion. but for example for France, it implies religious discretion in public.

You are an Anglo-Saxon you can't understand that lol

[OddBeMe]

So you think assimilated immigrants forget everything about their native country? Are you serious?

You don’t think assimilated immigrants can cook native meals, teach about liberal heroes from their countries?

[Julie4]

They must consider their new country as their real country. and adopt its heroes.

For the kitchen it doesn't matter.

In reality, that doesn't mean denying everything from your past, but it requires establishing a hierarchy.

My grandparents were Spanish, but I learned to love the history of France and its culture, I adopted its heroes. When I read for example that France lost a battle against Spain it makes me sad and I do not consider Charles V as a hero, but Jeanne D'arc, Richelieu, Louis XIV yes.

I eat a paella from time to time. and I can listen to Spanish music like I listen to American music etc. But in the end I am steeped in French culture, not Spanish culture.

assimilation is the abandonment of a part of oneself, of one's roots, to adopt the customs, the way of life, the history, the way of thinking of one's new homeland.

This assimilation was the key, according to the great historian Fernand Braudel, of the "painless integration" of these Belgian, Italian, Spanish, Russian, Jewish, Armenian, etc. immigrants. who for a century "quickly blended into the stains and creases of our civilization as their home cultures added nuance to our complex culture."

[OddBeMe]

I think you’re being a bit too unyielding with these definitions. This is an issue I see in religion and politics a lot. We put our own standards into a definition or idea (like feminism, eg) when actually on a base level, the word is defined very lightly.

But these are your usages of the words which changes for everyone. My in laws are from Paraguay and are very successful Americans. I’d say they’ve assimilated yet hold their culture very dearly.

[Julie4]

These are not my own standards. but it happened like that in France before. Add that for assimilation before the end of the 19th century also go through the conversion of foreigners to Catholicism. The 3 rd French Republic to secularize this principle.

[OddBeMe]

Yeah I get you. Just still, there's never 100% assimilation.

[Julie4]

I agree with you

[CuriousMufuxka]

Speak fucking English!

[cth96190]

Expulsion.

[Anonymous]

Speak the language, hold the values.

[exitseven]

Deportation.

[Xoirwinkan]

Don't let them in.

[SignedAutographs]

Integration

[Guardian45]

Inclusion