Guys, Should the Democrats invoke the 25th Amendment?

[msc545]

Doing this would allow them to remove Biden as President if he won't resign. I think they should do this and soon.

Yes, invoke it:

No, don't invoke it:

[OlderAndWiser]

This are the problems raised by that course of action:

1. If you invoke the 25th Amendment, then a lot of people have some explaining to do about their delays in proceeding with this.

2. That makes Kamala Harris the person who "should be" entitled to the nomination, but she is unelectable for different reasons. Her approval ratings are abysmally low.

3. Removing Biden from the Presidency with the 25th Amendment does NOT remove him from the ballot and he is still entitled to all of the delegates who are obligated to him by virtue of the DNC's rules.

4. Failure to make Harris the nominee alienates what is left of the black bloc vote on which Democrats have historically relied.

5. Harris then needs to nominate someone to serve as VP, but that is a position that is probably a dead end move for anyone with continuing aspirations.

6. However, changing at this late date, and with Trump having such momentum. . . a smart Democrat would decline the nomination, because it is better to be the Governor or Senator from wherever running for President in 2028, rather than being the person who lost the race in 2024.

The "solution" is to

7. First accept the inevitability of the loss in November.

8. Go to Harris and tell her that Biden is going to be removed under the 25th Amendment, and she will become President for the rest of the term, but that is with her agreement that she will publicly announce that she does not want the nomination.

9. She nominates as VP some second rung Democrat who thinks the exposure is worth the price, and who understands this is a short-term position with no place on the ballot in November.

10. Biden is also replaced with a second rung Democrat who campaigns hard but knows he or she will lose in November and they will then need to seek re-election to Congress or a state-level position. Newsom and the other contenders all have a much, much easier path to election in 2028 than they do in 2024.

11. As an appeasement to Joe, Harris pardons Hunter Biden on the day before the inauguration in January, 2025.

[msc545]

Very well thought out and persuasive, except that a loss in November may be a loss in the last Presidential election this country will have for many years if Trump and his followers get their way. They already have the support of the Supreme Court. They want no more opposition ever.

[OlderAndWiser]

That's the same thing the left said before the 2020 election. That's just partisan rhetoric.

[msc545]

Project 2025 is a lot more than rhetoric.

[msc545]

Defeating Trump is critical to the preservation of our country and our way of life. I know Trump wants to run against Biden, and we cannot let that happen.

[PatKirby]

Removing Biden and allowing him an honorable way out to pasture is critical to the preservation of our republic and our way of life. I hope Trump continues to expose Biden's mental incapacitation on a nation-wide public forum, as his own corporate and celebrity supporters stop their million$ in donations, and Democrat party faithful continue to urge him to step down. We must allow Biden's departure to happen.

Besides, Project 2025 when fully implemented will set things straight by taking out the trash. We must allow Project 2025 to happen.

[ProbablyClueless]

This is just my little personal conspiracy theory, but I've always believed that the only reason Biden is still around (and maybe even alive, honestly) is because of how thorough disliked Kamala is. Invoking the 25th amendment would mean putting Kamala front and center, and NOBODY (not even Kamala) wants that.

[msc545]

This can be done without nominating Kamala. She is as unelectable as Biden is now, but for different reasons.

[ProbablyClueless]

Who else do you think they would go for? Because my understanding is that the chain of command would put Kamala in charge, but I'm also not familiar with the 25th

[msc545]

I don't really know for sure, but any sane alternative at this point would be welcome.

[GoodGuyBreakingBad]

Yes, revoke the 25th Amendment, it's getting bad.

[msc545]

I think you mean "invoke" ?

[GoodGuyBreakingBad]

Yes, invoke the 25th Amendment, it's getting bad.

[goaded]

You really want Trump as president that much?

No-one else polls as well as Biden against Trump (except Michelle Obama, who would crush Trump, but she's not interested), and the money (about $100m) raised for Biden's campaign cannot be moved to another campaign.

Even if Biden does go into decline, there's a capable replacement on the ticket.

[msc545]

Biden is in decline NOW. He will not be re-elected ever.

[goaded]

Then who else?

[msc545]

I don't know offhand but perhaps the Governor of Pennsylvania, Josh Shapiro? Even the Republicans in that state really like him.

[goaded]

Who? - and that's the point. If there was a better candidate, the time to choose them was a year ago.

[msc545]

OK. We KNOW that Biden cannot win, so letting him run at all harms him and us both. Choosing a different person at least gives that person and us a chance to have a semi-decent country for the next 4 years and does no harm.

Having a chance no matter how small is better than having no chance at all - which is what Biden would provide.

[goaded]

We KNOW nothing of the sort. He's still the non-convicted felon in the race, he's still doing good things for average people, he's still never going to need immunity from prosecution, he's still not going to do any of the things in Project 2025, and he's still running the country.

[msc545]

He also has significant cognitive impairment, and it is probably progressive - and people know this. Nothing else you mentioned matters at all. Take a look at the post-debate polls and compare them to the pre-debate ones - there is a significant decline in favorability. He cannot win.

[msc545]

I don't think you know what you were looking at, assuming you watched the debate. I know exactly what I saw, since I do this for a living. If you knew what I know, you would not be so optimistic.

[goaded]

Did you watch anything since the debate? Like the same evening, iirc.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHJoewM3WfU

[msc545]

What is your point?

[goaded]

You could listen to the first interview he gave after the debate...
wurdradio.com/.../

You want to give up Contest and Incumbency www.american.edu/.../...eys-to-the-white-house.cfm tot to mention $100million.

By the way, the answer to "who else?" should have been Kamala Harris; she's already on the ticket, she knows the job and the people, her name is known (but still not nearly as well as Biden's), and racists and sexists weren't going to vote for Biden anyway.

Choosing not to choose her would be Democrats shooting themselves in the foot, especially if they went for an old white man instead. Why not just elect Biden? If he really is incapable, he will step down, he's not Trump.

The election is 4 months away. Don't forget, Trump and the media (NYT, in particular) were playing the same game with Clinton in 2016.


"‘We Should Take a Drug Test’ Before Debate, Donald Trump Says" www.nytimes.com/.../...lary-clinton-drug-test.html

Only one in four Americans have heard of Project2025, and they don't like it when they do, which is why Trump is claiming to "know nothing about" it, as he says he disagrees with parts of the thing he knows "nothing about" (and his Super PAC advertises it).

[msc545]

Kamala Harris would be a suicidal choice. I don't think you have any idea how many Americans are both sexist and racist. A black woman is unelectable in this country. She is more unpopular than Biden even now based on polling. Do you seriously think she is a good choice?

As for Biden, I don't really care how many interviews you have watched or the fact that you apparently found his presentations to be "normal", since I don't think you are qualified to make that judgment. What appears normal to you is probably not - laypeople are notorious for missing subtle neurological signs. I am not a layperson and I was worried about about Biden long before the debate. I am even more worried about him now as I think he has a progressive neurological disorder that will just worsen over time - and it is bad enough now as I imagine you have already seen. I don't feel like risking my country and my personal safety to appease the feelings of an arrogant old man who is in denial.

[goaded]

Then Democrats should stick with the only candidate they've got who has a chance, shouldn't they?

Have you put any effort into diagnosing Trump?

[msc545]

All I need to do for diagnosis is look and listen, Not like we have blood tests for this stuff.

[goaded]

Yes? How's Trump doing?

files.mastodon.online/.../08b159024d4ba1c5.jpeg

[msc545]

Not well, but you already know that. The problem is that his hordes of followers don't believe it and will vote for him anyway.

[goaded]

Removing Biden would effectively hand Trump $100 million, almost incumbent status, and a whole new load of attacks to use on whichever no-name person the DNC appoints in the face of all the people who voted for Biden in primaries.

Not a winning move for the Democrats.

Biden's the only one who can choose to step down. He shouldn't.

The Republicans have been fighting Biden this whole time because they know he can beat Trump. People are waking up to the dangers of the far right, just look at the UK and France. Project2025 is them telling us exactly what they have in mind, and it's disaster.

[msc545]

None of this matters. People will not vote for Biden after that debate performance. An alternate candidate might give us some hope of defeating Trump.

[goaded]

Nonsense, most people never even saw it, and the election is four months away.

[msc545]

People who haven't seen it will have seen YouTube videos of it, or will have heard about it. Biden's poll numbers went way down after the debate.

Biden cannot win and Harris REALLY cannot win.

Why are you so insistent on keeping Biden? The guy was losing votes before the debate because of the way he mishandled Gaza, and even more so now.

[goaded]

I thought I'd explained already. Here are some more reasons:

Republicans will make sure any other Democrat can't get on all the ballots.

Only Biden or Harris has access to the Democratic war chest. Any other Dem would be starting from scratch financially. (That's the $100 million I was talking about.)

Democrats changed horses in 1968 and lost mightily.

Incumbency helps in elections. If Biden is elected, the same people will still be around him (or President Harris), making sure the country is run as smoothly as possible.

What's driving the polls is the media not reporting "old" news.

Trump tells a lie?

Old news, not worth reporting.

Biden tells a lie (and we'll count saying $15 instead of $35, as a lie akin to saying Democrats kill babies)? Massive news! BECAUSE Biden doesn't lie very much.

Mental problems? 27 psychiatrists, psychologists, and other mental health professionals concluded in The Dangerous Case of Donald Trump that Trump’s mental health posed a “clear and present danger” to the nation. John F. Kelly Trump's CoS reportedly found the book helpful in dealing with Trump, whom he considered to be insecure, egotistical, and a pathological liar.

Old news, not worth reporting.

Biden has a problem during a debate, and there are hundreds of articles written about it, ignoring the quite reasonable interviews and speeches Biden gave around the same time, and that Trump lied every time he spoke - old news, not worth reporting.

[msc545]

Biden had more than a problem at the debate; he demonstrated many of the signs and symptoms of his neurological problem very clearly on national TV. This morning I read an article noting that a doctor who specializes in Parkinson's disease has made a total of nine visits in the last year to the White House. I am not surprised at this, but I am glad that somebody's caring for Biden. I said that Biden looked like he had Parkinson's disease right after I saw him in the debate. Apparently I'm not the only person who thinks so. Parkinson's affects both motor abilities and cognitive abilities. A man with Parkinson's has no business being president of the United States for multiple reasons. It is in no one's best interest including Biden's that he run for president again. He has absolutely no hope of beating Trump who is now ahead of him by six points in national polling.

[msc545]

I think you should stop focusing on how much money some prospective candidate will not get from the Democrats. If they run in place of Biden. I think instead you should focus on the very human notion that Biden is a very ill man who needs medical care and who should not be subjected to the rigors of presidential office, the pressures and stress of which are very likely to exacerbate his illness.

[goaded]

They were saying the same about France just a couple of days ago.

[msc545]

I don't think you get it. Biden is in decline now. It doesn't matter what the fuck they say in France.

[goaded]

It's not what they say in France, it's what the polls said. A few days ago, they were looking at a majority far right government, in practice the far right came in third.



Face it, you have a choice between two old men; support the one that supports democracy and will be replaced, if necessary, by someone else with the same vision, not Project 2025.

[msc545]

It doesn't matter what the French polls said; this is the US and things are very different. We have two mentally and physically ill old men running, one of whom is a criminal. Neither has any business running and both should be replaced. We have no ability to replace Trump but we sure as hell have the ability to replace Biden, and we should - unless you think Trump is somehow a better choice.

[goaded]

I don't think that, at all, as you know, but I accept that replacing him while he's the best chance of beating Trump (as he was in 2018, which is why Trump's been attacking him and his family all this time) is idiotic. You're playing Trump and the billionaires' game, despite having played it before, in 2016, and seen the results.

[msc545]

He is NOT the best chance of beating Trump, and you have no evidence save your own opinion to support that. Sorry - but there is too much at stake here to rely on that.

[goaded]

I didn't address this before, but it came up on my feed elsewhere.

"This morning I read an article noting that a doctor who specializes in Parkinson's disease has made a total of nine visits in the last year to the White House."
That would be "Dr. Kevin Cannard, ... a neurologist who specializes in movement disorders and recently published a paper on Parkinson’s."?

Nothing to do with Biden's "stiffened gait", described in this report (section six, pages 3 and 4) that says there were "no findings that would be consistent with any cerebellar or other central neurological disorder such as... Parkinson's", and the chief doctor had "assembled a team [including] movement disorder neurologist specialists".
www.whitehouse.gov/.../Health-Summary-2.28.pdf

Look, I showed you what the NYT was doing eight years ago when Clinton took a spill, why are you falling for the same crap again?



I'll take that sort of thing seriously when they start writing similar articles about Trump.

[msc545]

First, Kervin O'Connor is NOT a neurologist, so in regard to neurology, I would take his findings with a grain of salt. Second, most importantly, do you actually think if Biden had some neurologic disorder O'Connor would WRITE THAT DOWN? At this time? Lastly, why is a Parkinson's specialist going to the White House so often? Because he likes the view? That report from O'Connor Is dated Feb 28th. Perhaps he was asymptomatic then, but I think the report omits a lot.

I saw and heard what I saw and heard. Doesn't change my opinion regarding his electability. Even if he is ok, at this point you cannot convince people of that and they will still not vote for him.

[goaded]

That would be why he assembled a team... And, yes, I think he would have written it down, he's not Ronny Johnson (or is it Jackson) saying the president's got amazing genes.

Do you think he would have written down "no findings that would be consistent with any cerebellar or other central neurological disorder such as... Parkinson's" if that were a lie?

This was all before the primaries started.

Anyway, we're not going to convince each other, so it's just wasting time.

[msc545]

Yes, either he found nothing because his exam was inadequate, or he lied. Either way I don't believe him, but that is far past mattering. And yeah, we will not persuade each other. Let's agree to disagree, ok?

[goaded]

OK. Just one more data point, without comment.
files.mastodon.online/.../fd1038e9ff2108df.jpeg files.mastodon.online/.../0fc6e48659ca899d.jpeg

[msc545]

Kind of funny how the neurologist didn't sign this, isn't it?

[Curmudgeon]

Well, if they do that, they get Commielah "Heels Up" Harris, and that is out of the frying pan and into the fire. Regardless of political differences, as a MGTOW, I would think you would understand that. Harris epitomizes everything wrong with 3rd Wave femi (commu) nist "womyn".

[msc545]

They do not necessarily get Harris, but even if they do she is preferable to Trump. Trump, like Biden, is very ill, and unlike Biden is very dangerous.

[Curmudgeon]

I will set aside the "Trump as Boogeyman" issue for now, but YES, we DO get Harris. Text of 25th Amendment:
"Section 1: In case of the removal of the President from office or of his death or resignation, the Vice President shall become President.
Section 2: Whenever there is a vacancy in the office of the Vice President, the President shall nominate a Vice President who shall take office upon confirmation by a majority vote of both Houses of Congress.
Section 3: Whenever the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that he is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, and until he transmits to them a written declaration to the contrary, such powers and duties shall be discharged by the Vice President as Acting President."

[Curmudgeon]

Long amendment, it goes on:
"Section 4: Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President. Thereafter, when the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that no inability exists, he shall resume the powers and duties of his office unless the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive department or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit within four days to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office. Thereupon Congress shall decide the issue, assembling within forty-eight hours for that purpose if not in session. If the Congress, within twenty-one days after receipt of the latter written declaration, or, if Congress is not in session, within twenty-one days after Congress is required to assemble, determines by two-thirds vote of both Houses that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall continue to discharge the same as Acting President; otherwise, the President shall resume the powers and duties of his office."

[msc545]

We can all read. What is the point of posting this?

[PatKirby]

It would likely be a bipartisan effort but for different reasons. Should have been invoked long, long ago. I opt for giving the man some time to acknowledge what's happened first then walk away honorably and gracefully into the sunset by resigning before forcing the issue though.

[msc545]

Not willing to acknowledge it now. So what makes you think he would be willing to acknowledge it in the future? why should we wait? Everyday that we wait makes it less likely that anybody we select would prevail against Donald Trump.

[msc545]

Trump is not as strong as you think he is, and he is beginning to sound nearly as bad does as Biden when he speaks.

[exitseven]

No, hen will only get worse. There will only be a few people more braindead than him that will vote form him. Trump needs to win by a large margin to prevent having the election stolen.

[msc545]

No election has ever been stolen in this county save that of Bush, with assistance from the Supreme Court.

[exitseven]

@msc545 once a real investigation is done there may be a new narrative.

[msc545]

You mean an investigation by people who lie as much as Trump does? Those people?

[exitseven]

I mean an honest law enforcement agancy. We seem to be lacking one of those.

[msc545]

Right, there is no such thing anymore.

[madgoat]

What does his Mrs say?

[msc545]

Who cares what she says?

[OddBeMe]

If we want to look like idiots and hand the election to Trump, sure.

[msc545]

Biden cannot beat Tump. Why take a chance on him?

[goaded]

Who else has beaten Trump? At least he reads and understands the PDB.

[OddBeMe]

“I find fortune telling is not a lucrative enterprise”
- Lincoln

[Sevenpointfive]

it would end ikeubrickly

[NathanDavis]

I agree...

[Staximus]

I think this is poor planning