Do skilled workers emigrate here or do they arrive here with little and become skilled?

[OddBeMe]

Seems simple but apparently a billionaire who went down this path himself is this stupid.

They arrive in US skilled and ready to go!

No, they arrive with little and educate themselves here

[WindAtMyBack]

Approximately 2/3 of immigrants arrive on some type of family visa - spouse, parent, etc. I have never seen anything on their skill and education status, but my guess is that they are mostly low skilled and low education.

The tech industry has been pushing for looser immigration rules for at least 30 years. I have never agreed with it. All that is going to do is drive wages down.

The ones who are recruited by big tech companies are virtually always educated before they get here. Big tech actively recruits them. They are a minority of total immigrants, but pretty common in the tech industry. I worked for one company that was 30-40% Indian, and another company that was 30-40% Chinese.

Contrary to what the official rules say, a lot of work visas are given to people with very low skill levels. In theory that shouldn't happen, but it does. By low skill I mean jobs that are typically minimum wage type jobs.

The other large category are students. By definition they get the education here.

My own view is that immigration should be brought to a virtual halt - all immigration. Then work on reducing the population. Get it down to 300 million. Then get it even lower.

[msc545]

How do you expect billionaires to continue being billionaires if they can't get low-cost labor? The only thing better than an immigrant with no skills to whom you can pay minimum wage legally is an illegal immigrant with no skills to whom you can pay an illegally low wage and who can't do a single thing about it legally.

Do you really expect billionaires to pay a legal wage for having their crops picked? What an outrageous imposition!

[WindAtMyBack]

@msc545
Low cost immigrant don't buy stock. So they contribute very little to billionaires being billionaires.

[msc545]

No, instead they work for very low wages. That is important.

[WindAtMyBack]

@msc545

No it's not. It has little to do with it. You obviously don't know how it works.

[msc545]

I know exactly how it works, thank you.

[WindAtMyBack]

@msc545

Bullshit. You have no fucking clue.

[msc545]

When labor costs aare reduced, stock prices rise. You have a problem with that logic?

[WindAtMyBack]

@msc545

Stock prices rise when people have money to invest in the stock market. The more money available, the more money they invest in the market. That is what drives the market and what causes the net worth of the uber wealthy to rise and fall. Their net worth increases because tens of millions of normal people have plenty of money. The more money the average person has, the more they invest in the market, and the higher the net worth of the uber wealth.

Of course stock prices will loosely follow profitability, which is affected by labor costs. But it only follows in a small way. This is the reason why so many companies have such high PE ratios. When I took classes in this in the early 80s, a PE of 20 was considered very high. Now, we get PEs WAY higher than that, sometimes triple digits like Tesla which is pushing 200.

Yes, labor slightly affects the earnings part of the equation. It's the price of the stock that soars. It FAR outpaces earnings which is why PE ratios are so high. It's the tens of millions of people with enough disposable income to invest in the stock market that drive PEs so high. Which in turn drives the net worth of anyone owning stock - which is the MAJORITY of Americans.

They have money. They need to do something with it. It's more than they want to stick in a bank account, so they buy stock - mostly through mutual funds. You can look up (almost) any company and look at the largest shareholders. The top 10-20 shareholders are almost always pooled money like mutual funds. That means normal people investing in stock are driving the market. State pension plans are also big shareholders.

[msc545]

Corporation heads cut labor costs to increase profit margins which in turn causes stock value and price to rise.

[msc545]

You are not wrong in what you said, but I am not wrong either.

[Curmudgeon]

And yet, you Leftists deliberately imported as much unskilled as you could, all for votes and for more nanny state clients.

Whatever disagreements our side has about immigration - some want a total "time out", others want to still let skilled ones in (and there is debate about what skills count and what skills we would be better off developing at home), at least we ALL agree no more rabble, no more Fentanyl and human girl traffickers, no more drug cartels, and no more people are are typically illiterate in their native spoken languages, let alone English.

[OddBeMe]

Any proof that these people "brought in" vote? Nope. Just your feel facts

[Curmudgeon]

@OddBeMe And then you turn around and post this:

Should we rename it Mexican America? ↗

You rotten Demunist Commiecrats just keep on giving yourselves away.

And what happen to the votes of the 1986 amnestied?

[OddBeMe]

You mean the Reagan law that made 2.7 million illegals citizens? Go back to sleep old man

[FreyaRed]

If you want to be a skilled apple tree expert you need apple trees in your garden. If you want skilled software and hardware engineers you need import them from countries which produce such things and have some know how in hardware and software development.
Maybe wants Elon just more curry food experts, who knows?

[OddBeMe]

Thats entirely fucking false because American institutions educate more immigrant science degrees than native born

[FreyaRed]

What about real skills, not some theoretical academic BS?
When you never worked for a tech corpo in developed country, your skill portfolio is rather thin or non-existent.
Remember the discussion is about skilled tech workers, not about people who have a bachelor made on some western third class uni. I assure you, a talented third world student will get work proposals before end of exams from ton of headhunters who look for talents. In those cases is a visa not really an obstacle. The current H1-B visa discussion in US about importing lot of cheap work force for wage dumping for jobs in medium earning range.

[OddBeMe]

So why are third world immigrants the ones with stem degrees instead of homegrown Americans?

[purplepoppy]

I always assumed the immigration questions had little to do with level of skill and more about them being the wrong colour.

[IamRight]

So the reason leftists trash on Musk in recent questions is becuase he is the wrong color? Thats probably part of the reason, but its more likely they just want to talk crap about the Right

[purplepoppy]

No we trash him because of the unhinged verbal diarrhoea he spouts on a daily basis

[IamRight]

You are a leftist? Shame, I thought your answer were about questions on GaG about Musk’s immigration.

[OddBeMe]

@IamRight you rightists make it too easy to talk ahit about you

[bobby_bush_eater]

In the USA you put a visa job out for a salary way below minimum wage and then you can force them to work more or they'll be deported.

It's simple exploitation for corporations at the expense of citizens. It's cheaper to hire and Indian than to pay a 16 year old to be a cashier.

That's not right when the system is incentived only for the benefit of the corporation but sure you can complain about race.

[OddBeMe]

@bobby_bush_eater so the answer is kick them all out? Or make immigration easier so we tax , ore workers wages?

[bobby_bush_eater]

The h1b program should be done away with. Musk, Trump, and Vivek previously said this.

I think having a US citizen compete with the entire third world for a shitty job isn't right and is exploitative. It's a government program where 90% of applications are Indian and Chinese, it's been exploited just as scammers exploited Canada.

Where musk and Vivek pissed off there base is just ignoring this fact and blaming Americans of which regular citizens do not view them as Americans themselves so to blame us is viewed as an outsider. Idrc about that shit but h1b is a net negative for everyone but corps.

[OddBeMe]

@bobby_bush_eater so you don't want any immigrants whether they're skilled or become skilled?

[bobby_bush_eater]

H1b isn't skilled, o1 visa is great

[OddBeMe]

@bobby_bush_eater feel free to take a look at immigrant kids and see the higher rates of success.

[bobby_bush_eater]

thats not even the same argument; h1bs are not immigrants nor are they accounted as them

[OddBeMe]

@bobby_bush_eater so what is an “immigrant”? This is how trumpers will redefine American citizenship by the way.

[bobby_bush_eater]

immigrants are citizens in those metrics dumbass

[bobby_bush_eater]

if you can't figure out the difference between a temporary work visa and naturalized citizens and permanent residents (green card holders), then you need to do some serious research

[OddBeMe]

@bobby_bush_eater I thought I was asking a simple question, what’s an immigrant?

[OddBeMe]

Say... everyone not a citizen? Is an immigrant?

[bobby_bush_eater]

H1b visa is shit, it just steals low skill jobs at a cheaper than minimum wage, it's simple exploitation of economies of scale but musk portrays it like USA citizens are lazy even though most innovations start here.

Why are there tech and finance layoffs when they lower the wage and offer it to SE Asians?

I worked in big 4 finance and they offshore as much work as they can, use as many visas, and as much AI as possible with layoffs annually but I guess it's strictly because our grads are stupid or something.

[IslaTheWitch]

to get a work visa, you have to have a company that wants to hire you and sponsor your visa... so yes, you have to be skilled AF

[OddBeMe]

So skilled immigrants in America never come here and educate themselves? You should attend more college and see the vast numbers

[IslaTheWitch]

I have two degrees... don't feel the need for more :D

[lightbulb27]

Both. the ones I was party to bringing in, had the skills the company needed under H1-B. They went and brought back wives [I never saw the females bring back guys... different cultures], often skilled, then parents and family and such that were unskilled. And from that, whole areas of the city were filled. That's just one city.

[Still-alive]

Skilled or not one thing to note about most immigrants is they are ready to work their asses off in order to stay. If they don’t they run the possibility of being forced back to whatever terrible situation they cane from. Rich ass billionaire capitalists take advantage of that hence why elon is in favor of this.

[exitseven]

Rece try it is neither. They flow across the border, impoverished and unskilled and expect the American taxpayer to supply them with free everything in perpetuity. They are truly the gift that keeps on giving

[OddBeMe]

Again I'll ask... evidence theyre getting anything at all? Not some charity bullshit. From the govt. Subsidies as you said.

They get nothing and pay sales tax.

[exitseven]

There are two hotels 4 miles from my house that will show you all the evidence you need

[OddBeMe]

Paid by charities. And 20+ migrants at a hotel is hardly the trend

[exitseven]

No, the hotels are leased by the state. There were many full time residents in these hotels, some were veterans tht got evicted to make room for these freeloaders. The state paid the owners double the rate and when the hotels are completely trashed by these savages the state will pay to have them rebuilt.
The cops and first responders are there all the time and there have been multiple armed robberies in the area and the rape of a 15 year old girl.

[msc545]

Provide evidence.

[exitseven]

@msc545 This is near my house. They live better than most elderly and veterans.
www.nbcboston.com/.../

[msc545]

How do you know how any of the people you mentioned live, and why does it even matter? Everyone needs and is entitled to shelter as a human right.

[OddBeMe]

And the GOP congressman accused of rape? Don't treat all rapists the same eh?

[exitseven]

he was accused but there is no proof. That's how ir is with the fake news Some "unnamed source" comes up with a story about a republican and the fake news takes it as gospel. There is so much evidence about the Biden crime family and their influence peddling business and the fake news gives it a good leaving alone

[msc545]

Everything you dislike is "fake news" - everything to do with Biden is "criminal.

[exitseven]

@msc545 its funny how that is. Proves that i was not born at night.

[OddBeMe]

@exitseven you know how blcokchain works right? It's not disputed he paid a girl who was underage

[exitseven]

Whats a blcokchain?

[OddBeMe]

A public list of transactions that can't be altered.

www.nytimes.com/.../...etz-venmo-payments-sex.html

[OddBeMe]

I like how you come to a conclusion without the knowledge.

[msc545]

Exit is a man who literally believes everything that Trump says is true. I have never heard him. Contradict Trump's propaganda once. I don't think he's capable of it. That being said, he's also a nice guy.

[OddBeMe]

@msc545 fair enough. At least he talks to us. Most rightists say their bs and leaves.

[msc545]

He does do that and he doesn't curse and threaten us, so there is that...

[Juxtapose]

The people who are successful are the ones who already are a bit better off. You're not going to get someone with rags on their shoulders all of a sudden becoming skilled workers, especially if they're foreigners who are alien to our culture.

[Juxtapose]

These bums coming in illegally are disrespecting everybody with their behavior and most are not going to amount to anything.

[Juxtapose]

The Nigerians do pretty well. Black America could learn from them and their lack of a victim complex.

[OddBeMe]

Not answering the q. Are the skilled immigrants coming here or are they bums who became skilled?

[msc545]

Indians are typically educated in Indian technical schools and colleges - some of the best in the world - before they are foolish enough to come here to be exploited and mistreated.

[OddBeMe]

@msc545 false, they arrive here to attend America's second to none colleges

[msc545]

Be sure to let the guys who graduate from India's first-rate technical colleges all about that, please. They will want to know that they too can compile massive debt in a bogus US school, similar to how Trump University was before a Judge shut it down.

[OddBeMe]

@msc545 I'm uneducated in Indian colleges. I just see the stats in American STEM degrees.

[msc545]

American colleges are known for grade inflation because they are afraid to fail anyone who even just occasionally shows up and learns nothing.

Check out India's tech schools.

[OddBeMe]

@msc545 sure…ivy leagues. I figured that since Bush W graduated Yale. But don’t think legit universities are bs. Common stats on earnings show it’s worth it

[msc545]

Even the "legit" trade schools aren't.

[OddBeMe]

@msc545 not sure why an educated therapist would say that.

[msc545]

I'm talking just about the tech schools. Not the schools I went to nor the ones you went to.

[OddBeMe]

@msc545 yeah, def shit “for profit” ones like phoenix U, infamously. There are actual tech schools, usually small local ones, that train AC, or electricians. I did some marketing for one that seemed really good.

It’s funny because all colleges and tech schools are for profit. But there are shit ones who peddle shit degrees.

[msc545]

exactly my point.

[Garud]

American companies and companies from other countries only hire students with high grades from Indian universities.

[Garud]

Many Western companies also run a business of inviting students from different countries to study in the US or Canada. This is an education business as students actually spend a lot of money to study in these countries.

[Friendlybro79]

It's not so black and white. Some are skilled labor and some are ready to work their ass off in manual labor. You know the jobs many young and old Americans (not all I know) don't want to do.

[OddBeMe]

So illegal immigration is a good thing

[Friendlybro79]

No I'm not saying that so simply. The topic of illegal immigration is complex, as it carries both contributions and challenges that defy simple categorization as "good" or "bad."

On the positive side, many undocumented immigrants contribute to the U. S. economy by filling labor shortages in industries such as agriculture, construction, and hospitality, often doing essential but low-paying jobs that others may avoid. They also pay taxes, including sales and property taxes, and some even contribute to Social Security despite being ineligible for benefits. However, the challenges include concerns about the strain on public resources such as healthcare and education, as well as debates over fairness in bypassing legal immigration processes. Additionally, the lack of documentation can make it harder to ensure fair treatment for workers and can lead to exploitation. This duality highlights the nuanced nature of the issue, requiring thoughtful policies that balance economic needs, ethical considerations, and national security.

[Friendlybro79]

Also, the original question isn't necessarily referring to illegal immigrants. I was answering the question that was asked.

[OddBeMe]

Fair enough. But it doesn't seem complex. There are jobs unfilled today.

[Friendlybro79]

If it was so simple it wouldn't be a problem. It's very complex. Imagine how many more would be unfilled if we had less people here to take the jobs avg Americans don't want to do? Also, there are unfilled jobs due to lack of compensation. People aren't going to take back breaking jobs and live in a cardboard box. Some of these unfilled jobs are by small businesses that depend of cheap labor. I'm not saying that's right.. but it's how the food literally gets to our supermarkets so we can bring it home to feed our family's

[ProbablyClueless]

From a numbers standpoint, far more people coming here are unskilled

[OddBeMe]

And become skilled

[msc545]

Yes, agricultural workers. In two years your orange will cost 3 dollars without them.

[ProbablyClueless]

@OddBeMe That's certainly possible. It's not what typically happens, but it is possible.

[OddBeMe]

Not sure why it’s hard for rightists to learn immigration is good for the economy. Even illegal immig

[ProbablyClueless]

Because they understand that the economy doesn't actually need to function that way.

[OddBeMe]

So an economy doesn’t need constant influx? Go back to school

[ProbablyClueless]

That's not what I said. Learn to read.

[OddBeMe]

"Function that way" in a convo about immigration... pretty sure I got it right.

[ProbablyClueless]

Then try again. Because you got it totally wrong.

[OddBeMe]

Then tell me. What economic function did you figure out?

[msc545]

It is hard for them because it conflicts with their commitment to racism. The immigrants that come here from Europe don't bother them at all and they never talk about them in a derogatory way because they are white.

[OddBeMe]

@msc545 yes I'd respect them more if they just said they wanted less brown people here.

[msc545]

Why? - that is still very racist.

[ProbablyClueless]

People like Nick Fuentes are very open about how they feel. But I think most Trump supporters don't say they want fewer brown people because that's not reflective of how they actually feel.

[OddBeMe]

@ProbablyClueless What! There are racist brown people! I won't have it!

Still tho. You didn't tell me about the wonderful economy without immigration. Explain to me how that works.

[ProbablyClueless]

@OddBeMe It's simple: ILLEGAL immigration is only "necessary" in a non-protectionist economic environment. When you have a global economy that is structured on exporting labor; illegal immigration is necessary. When you have tariff structures in place that protect domestic production, the illegal immigration is no longer necessary because the domestic companies are no longer have the same pressure to compete against slave labor markets like China. It stops being cheaper to produce in other countries, so the labor force returns to the US, where it also becomes more advantageous for people to immigrate within the confines of the law.

[OddBeMe]

Illegal immigration is only poor immigration. T/F?

[ProbablyClueless]

False.

[OddBeMe]

How easy is it for poor immigrants to do it legally? Easy enough to feed their starving family?

And wouldn't any illegal become legal if they had a choice?

[ProbablyClueless]

Excellent questions... I can only answer based on the immigrants I've spoken with about the subject, but I have spoken to a fair number of them. Based on what I've heard, I don't think illegals would necessarily prefer to become legal. They don't necessarily gain much benefit from citizenship; they lose a lot of flexibility and citizenship gives them only a little bit better access to infrastructure they can already mostly access.

It SEEMS like the issues are more to do timing and access to jobs. Visa applications are complicated for people who don't have a great grasp on English, and the bureaucracy moves slower than the illegals need it to. Beyond that, the most attractive thing about hiring an illegal is that you can pay them less; they lose that edge once they become citizens. The unskilled worker just gets tangled up in a bunch of red tape, which prevents them from sending much needed money back to their families.

Immigrants looking to go to universities or build careers for themselves have to find universities and companies willing to sponsor them or provide whatever other formality is needed to complete the visa application. That's often not easy to find.

The immigrants who have the easiest time are the ones who have education or special skills before coming into the country. The guy picking fruit on the farms is better off staying illegal.

[OddBeMe]

They wouldn't want to be protected by cops and not running from them? Getting scammed by cash employers?

I don't think you've spoken to any illegals

[ProbablyClueless]

You have to think about what their alternative is.

They wouldn't get paid at all, and the cops mostly don't bother them.

[msc545]

Picking crops is skilled labor...

[ProbablyClueless]

@msc545 No, unskilled laborers are people who don't require additional training to do their job. Skilled laborers are people like electricians, plumbers, welders, and such.

[msc545]

By those definitions, I think you are probably right. That being said, even picking crops takes a certain amount of skill and if an immigrant doesn't have that skill from previously working in its own country, he's going to have to acquire it here.

[Sevenpointfive]

those foreigners no longer accept lower pay. they charge more!