This has become a shitshow
Explosions at the Kabul Airport and hotel, several US military dead or wounded. Should we still be in Afghanistan or pull out like planned?
What is your opinion?
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Guru Age: 31 , mho 32%+1 yWe have been there for way too long as it is. Afghanistan has been like this since we stepped foot there post 911. The big reason why this is gaining traction and attention to begin with is because Biden decided to have a quick deadline for withdrawal that has been sloppy resulting in press coverage over his bringing refugees over as well as Americans still stuck in Afghanistan that does not include our troops.
This attack is now a big story by proxy because of this. We had soldiers die earlier this year back in February, but that didn't make major headlines. Just another day in that instance. This one only had it because of this whole mess with the evacuations. If we go after these guys, it will be pointless again because it made no fucking sense for withdrawal in the first place and if it means we stay there now, it will only cause tensions here and in Afghanistan to grow more.
Afghanistan has pretty much been a more modern Vietnam in a way. Overstayed welcome and no reason to be there for as long as we have because of the military industrial complex. If anything- history has taught us that Afghanistan is a rare gem in the sense of any empire or army trying to conquer the country has been unsuccessful.
Biden wants to pull out everyone by his deadline, then let's stick with that plan and see if he actually stands by it without flip flopping. Only time will tell if we get sucked back into another conflict.
Personally, we need to stop with the proxy wars and being the world police. We do not need to be involved in every little thing or conflict of another country. We need a military strong enough to defend a nation from foreign enemies and threats. We can't afford to do both.10 Reply
Most Helpful Opinions
Biden should have committed to the pull out. It was a bad idea in the first place, but the only thing worse is doubling back on that decision. Now we're back in it and already lost lives.
They have to accept the cons of whatever decision. But instead of doing that he made two bad decisions *shakes head*. Like yes, we can't be in Afghanistan forever and it's worth asking is full abandonment something we should consider.
They're not a US ally. We went in from a war. We won. Now we have friends and detractors. But if we leave the Taliban owns it and will protect terrorists to further commit acts of terror in the world at large as well as the US.
That said, is that what the people who make decisions want? We were there for years. Geared them. Trained them. Made them better and they could barely last a round with the Taliban.
To me that shows either incompetentance or lack of commitment to defending your own land. If terrorists tried to take over America citizens would go out of their way to kill some terrorists and take it back. Why isn't Afghanistan like that?
Do they not care the same way? Do they not believe they can fight? Do they agree with the Taliban and support their mission? Worthwhile questions. It only takes enough of the population supporting the taliban to make big changes. Maybe they have those numbers00 Reply
Guru Age: 21 , mho 31%+1 yYes, you should still pull out of Afghanistan. I find it so ironic how all these Westerners are so concerned for the safety of Afghani people but where have you all been for the past 20 years? Where was this energy when US soldiers were killing Afghans for sport and collecting their fingers as trophies? I guess it doesn’t matter when the West commits terrorism against innocent people.
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The West also provides the countries it invades under the premise of “freedom” destruction. Just because life is somewhat good for us in the West, that does not give it a pass to commit war crimes and atrocities upon other people.
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If it’s purely bad intent, then why aren’t the war criminals prosecuted for their war crimes?
And secondly, one thing you clearly don’t know is if you’re Muslim or even just brown in the West people always want your opinion when an individual commits a terrorist attack and they happen to share the same religion as you or look like you. So yes, actually I have plenty to say on that and I say that when the time is appropriate.
Moreover terrorism perpetuated by an individual is not the same as terrorism committed by members of the military who are there to supposedly protect the people. Both are wrong and unjust, but members of the military who claim they are there to “liberate the people” have a much greater responsibility to ensure such terrorism does not occur in the military.
It’s also intentional when US soldiers admit to killing Afghani people for sport and collect their fingers as trophies. You don’t accidentally chop someone’s finger off and keep it as a trophy. That’s very much intentional. - +1 y
How is it possible that 90% of the people can't figure this out? We just want our American hostages out, and then leave and let the Taliban, Al-Qaeda and Isis, slaughter the rest of the country.
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@SpiderManFan2002: You make the deliberate mistake of generalizing from some examples. That’s incitement if the sort that perpetuates the cycle of terror attacks.
I get asked a lot of stuff that annoys me too. Maybe people genuinely want your opinion- don’t always assume the worst. - +1 y
@Avicenna Except where did I generalize? All I am saying is members of the US Army committed such war crimes and have not been held accountable as have members of the UK and Australian Army and nobody seems to bat an eyelid so much so that for example, for the UK Army the courts found them guilty- yet they are not prosecuted. So please, let’s not use this saviour complex of the Western man going save and protect the poor Afghanis because we know very well that’s not an accurate depiction of what has been happening for the past 20 years.
Secondly, where did I say I was annoyed or that the people questioning me had bad intent? Oh wait, I didn’t. You can tell by the way they talk to you who genuinely wants your opinion and who has an agenda, so please stop putting words into my mouth. - +1 y
The Soldiers who were collecting the fingers of Afghan Civilians were sentenced to prison.
Although in my opinion, the turning point in the Talibans' fight was back in 1989:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fg3cGwwGX6o
And the fate of Afghanistan was sealed in 2003:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKVDXbIpW9Q
I was 13 at the time but even I could tell that the case for the war in Iraq was BS, I remember vividly thinking we should get Bin Laden and GTFO of Afghanistan.
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@Ad_Quid_Orator I mean right now, we’re seeing pictures and videos of US soldiers for example, with Afghan children and babies- to insinuate that they’re there to help the people which is just complete BS. Why don’t they also show the pictures of the US soldiers committing war crimes?
The interests of the Afghani people and human rights has never been the primary concern:
https://youtu.be/6fMX72z8gp8 - +1 y
And there’s still plenty in which there has been no accountability held, not just in that video above though:
https://youtu.be/WIDchC_70s0 - +1 y
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What in the world? Spidey, where are you getting that crazy idea from?
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@Avicenna
I feel like I'm living in a parallel universe. A reporter asks Biden:
"Do you regret not getting the civilians out first, and leaving our enemy billions of dollars of weapons.
Biden answers: "Look, we've been in Afghanistan for 20 years, and I don't regret ending the war."
Wait, what? No one asked him that question.
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@KimmyKimmy: Well, Ronny Jackson, who was White House Physician from 2013-18 and is therefore well-placed to opine on Biden's mental faculties (must have had lots of contact with him when Biden was VP), says he is simply not mentally up to the job of being President.
But the CCP and their confederates (wealthy US leftists and politicians) want him since he's the perfect puppet, so he's there, and his family wants him in office so they can continue to take bribes. - +1 y
@BCRanger10 What lol? You mean it’s a crazy idea that the West doesn’t have the best interests of the Afghani people at heart and is using that as a front but has some other motive behind that front? That’s not crazy, that’s reality lol- just listen to the former British soldier I linked in that video lmao
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@SpiderManFan2002 Afghanistan is a Shithole whats your point are u defending it because it's a muslim country? If so Taliban are killing random kids and men and more and the Afghani people clearly don't wanna be their under taliban order look at how many are trying to escape & how the Taliban are not letting them leave.
Whether The west intervention happen it would have been someone else before it was the British then Russia then full scale power of the US & NATO so it doesn't matter the reason why we really went there the place is a cesspool like Iraq & Syria, Lebanon, Palestinian, Isreal self destructing middle east and Asian countries so who cares if they collect fingers those extremist collected decapitated heads. One thing you are right about because most muslims refuse to hold other muslim extremist accountable & ask for order is yeah the whole world should sit back & watch the middle east destroy its self. But people like you are quick to switch & then demand the world superpowers to intervene once you see how bad it really turns out with everyone watching them burn the whole region to the ground. - +1 y
@Fuentes Whether the country is good in our eyes or not, everybody deserves to live in peace, safety and security. Calling out the West for war crimes does not equate to support for the Taliban, and just as a number of Afghanis don’t want to live under Taliban rule, a number of them also don’t want to be occupied by the West, who exploit the situation of war for profit.
You know, it’s funny how you talk about these “Muslim extremists” yet you’re clearly forgetting it was the West who created and/or funded many of these groups. For example, when the same Taliban was fighting Russia the US described them as people with a righteous cause and funded them! I suppose they weren’t terrorists according to the USA then, huh the narrative does a 180 when they want it to- right?
And look because I’m Muslim I have to clarify, whatever the Taliban has done and for whatever they will do they need to be held accountable- but so does the West for all the human rights violations that they have caused under their occupation. Terrorism is terrorism no matter who does it, terrorism isn’t only terrorism when it’s done by a brown guy in a beard and turban. The fact you’re so consumed in the evidently biased Western narrative is actually tragic, and you really need to start thinking for yourself. - +1 y
@SpiderManFan2002 war is war nothing is pretty about it if you went to war you're taking another soul & we implemented a new Afghani leader and he never asked us to leave infact begged us to stay & the US didn't start Syria & look at them? Middle East is a cesspool did you know before the US went to Afghan their were tins of warlords fighting to defeat the Taliban & true the US should have never funded the Taliban but it was only because of the Cold War and the fight to end communism and smack Russia because we have funded proxy wars against eachother for years but that was our mistake made years ago. But today they're extremist why? We wiped the Taliban to pieces why do they keep growing? Because new aged kids & men from all over the nation who were orginal muslims decided to join uo and fight for the holy war because they really think they will make the whole world muslim that is EXTREME and makes them extremist i never said all Muslims were extreme i know many who denounce the extremist but most like you will not.
So everything your saying doesn't matter, why? Because in the end the middle east is going to destroy themselves fighting for a holy war and fighting over holy ground. So regardless human rights violations have been affected before and after US intervention it just doesn't matter the middle east is a wasteland. - +1 y
@Fuetes Eh, firstly you need to purchase a map because Afghanistan isn’t even in the Middle East lol- again so consumed in the Western narrative and you Americans say the North Koreans are brainwashed lmao
So basically what you’re saying is it’s okay to violate the human rights of innocent people so long as those rights are already being violated? Imagine trying to justify war crimes lol - +1 y
"Middle East Countries : Syria, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Jordan, Saudi-Arabia"
Library of Congress.
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Well clearly that’s wrong lol
www.afghanaid.org.uk/is-afghanistan-in-the-middle-east-afghanaid-explains - +1 y
"Sometimes, the definition of Middle East is extended to include the concept of the "Greater Middle East" that includes Afghanistan, the Comoros, Djibouti, Maghreb, Pakistan, Sudan, and Somalia."
*World Atlas*
It depends who you talk to, but if you need to be right, I think that's just fine. Clearly you are right.
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If you read before i clearly said Asian and middle east countries right above that i know you have nothing refute what im saying because im right and war is war and those countries are war torn by extremist who think the whole world should be muslims by any means & fight over holy ground. It's adopted by middle east countries culture and way of life look at Iraq destroyed, look at Syria, look at Lebanon and due to Syrias issue it has spilled into Jordan, Iran will soon be destroyed. The middle east and any Asian country who has adopted the islamic lifestyle palenstine & Isreal, its fact the Islamic way doesn't work when putting religion above when running a country.
Korea was another proxy war for Russia where they funded NK to fight us in the end we split the country with Russia and China & NK is brainwashed, starving people, malnourished, no internet, living in the old ages, people can't leave NK to see the world. People like you cry about about a lot of stuff but you will never go live in a islamic law country, you won't live under communism and you defenitley won't go live in a place where you as a woman have no rights & you know it. But you'll sit and complain about what the world super powers is doing to combat it to avoid the whole world going into chaos. Like i said if everyone sat by and did nothing then you would be SCREAMING GO HELP THESE COUNTRIES!!! Because you're apart if the SJW culture that doesn't really know left from right. - +1 y
Pakistan and Somalia are certainly not the Middle East lol
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@Fuentes I don’t think I would be screaming for the US to help, because the reality is- before Western intervention so many of these countries were thriving.
And no lol, I don’t consider myself to be part of the “SJW culture” that’s just made up BS, made to keep y’all divided lol- keep falling for it. - +1 y
Clearly you're right. 😂😂😂
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Yes, I am- I think as a Pakistani I’d know if I’m Middle Eastern or not😂😂💀💀💀
www.worldatlas.com/.../...-of-the-middle-east.html
“The Greater Middle East” is a concept, not a reality lol - +1 y
Is your glass half empty or half full? 😂😂😂
As a Pakistani, you clearly know the answer that no one else does. - +1 y
The same website literally said that Pakistan is in ***not*** in the Middle East- please read what you cite as a source😂😂🤦🏾♀️🤦🏾♀️
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Half empty or half full? 😂😂😆😆😂😂
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@KimmyKimmy Sure is just really ignorant of the reality of the situation.
Its easy to hate the West when you live in the West..
Its clear she "cares" about people.. as long as it confirms her hatred of the part of the world she lives in
Yet she wouldn't survive outside of it.
the Irony..
the Ignorance.. - +1 y
I don’t know, but I can tell you got certain Pak isn’t in the Middle East, GOOGLE IS FREE😂😂😂
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@HanSwoloRevenge Hatred? So calling out your part of the world for the wrongs they do is hatred? Okay lol
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Yes, actually its known as the "Greater Middle East"
The term is not a specific to only a select few nations..
ITS a general term that also encompasses Pakistan. - +1 y
Not at all.
However what you are doing it taking very specific cases.. and attempting to highlight it as some motive for the West.
There is a difference between criticism
and then attempting to take rare situations and apply them as a whole..
Tell me SpiderManfan2002
What is your perspective of the Taliban takeover of Afghanistan?
Do you support it? - +1 y
No it isn’t🤦🏾♀️”The Greater Middle East” is simply a concept, if you ask any Pakistani they will not consider themselves Middle Eastern or Arab and nor will Somalis- and you say I’m ignorant? The source I literally cited clearly says “Pakistan is ***not*** in the Middle East” reading is not hard.
The term is literally specific to about 18 countries because that is how many countries are in the Middle East, again if you read what is cited you’d know that. - +1 y
Before the US, Brits were there then Russia after that Warlords, the leader of Afghanistan before the recent take over was one of many warlords who was fighting to oust the Taliban before the US intervention. So they were always fighting again it was a shithole it was never peaceful for years. Iraq people attempted to kill Saddam before the US many times also beforr we came Iraq attacked Kuwait another middle east country again they were always fighting out there then theirs Isreal and Palenstine nobody has intervention there and they're fighting over holy ground the British set up again always fighting. Syria, the US was never there and look fighting eachother and killed over 100k casualties. Lebanon they are bombing themselves and destruction their own country. Jordan has Syria spilling into their country and is quickly destabilizing. Iran is on their way to dieing out. You can't refute this because its all fact and its true.
You can't run a country using religion it fails in today's society & todays world which is why you won't go and live in any of those places & it's inventive you are born in the 2k baby era you automatically adopt the SJW culture and you show it by your crying and complaints you have the truth but you wanna push and argue past and say damn the facts. - +1 y
@HanSwoRevenge
Except I’m not, if you watch the videos I cited - one from a former British soldier - you’ll see that they show you a lot more what the West has done and not been held accountable for, even the soldier pretty much says it’s very disingenuous to act like the West was there to protect the human rights of the Afghani people.
And lol you’re asking me if I support it? If you read what I previously said which you clearly didn’t because we know you don’t like to read, I literally said “Calling out the West for war crimes does not equate to supporting the Taliban”
I support peace for the Afghani people, and clearly neither the West nor the Taliban have proved they can bring that to the Afghani people- we know of wrongdoings committed by the Taliban when they were previously in power, everybody is aware of that. What you people clearly don’t seem to be aware of though is the wrongdoings of our Western armies too, the reality is neither have benefited the Afghani people and many are only fleeing to Western countries because it were those countries who played a role in destabilizing their own countries in the first place. If you occupy a country for 20 years, then don’t be surprised when people seek asylum in stable countries. - +1 y
Who is denying the wrongdoings of Western forces?
You clearly have avoided Western media for decades?
You speak of these issues. BECAUSE Western media speaks about it..
These are not unknowns
These have been heavily reported throughout the years
This is the issue friend. - +1 y
You also SEEM to be ignoring some details
1. Afghanistan was FAR MORE stable under United States involvement, than previous years?
Where do you get the idea that the United States created some sort of destabilization in Afghanistan?
There was a CIVIL WAR in the country prior to United States military involvement. - +1 y
2. IF you supported peace in Afghanistan
You would have supported United States military involvement in the nation
FOR THOSE YEARS... were some of the safest in Afghanistan in recent history.
When the United States withdrew its force in 2014 (its manpower going from 100,000 in 2010.. to 16,000 in 2014).. and continued to withdrawal after (its manpower being no higher than 8,000 throughout most of the next years)
This was the period that saw the highest death tolls in Afghanistan.
2010, (the peak of USA military involvement) was a relatively safe year.. as opposed to any period POST USA military involvement
Even prior to 2001, the Nation saw heavy combat (such as the bombarding of Kabul by Hektmayar) that was never seen any period of major USA deployment.
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So why don’t the Western media show us the pictures of the Western soldiers committing these war crimes as much as they show us pictures of US soldiers with Afghani women and babies?
And if you look at my sources on these war crimes, they are not from mainstream media outlets, they are from independent media outlets.
Lol where did I say these were unknowns or people were denying them? The issue is, certain people don’t really take the human rights violations committed by the West as they do when human rights violation are committed by brown men with beards in turbans- people tend to be very selective in their outrage.
And none of what you said still takes away from my point that nor the West or the Taliban have brought peace to the Afghani people, but see you’re only ready for half that conversation, clearly. - +1 y
^ Specifically in those details lets look at UNAMA for example, that had recording breaking years of civilian deaths tolls EACH YEAR... post 2014
^ Such data is easy to access.
While Civilian losses prior to major USA withdrawals, were actually typically much lower during those hotly contested years.
This ignores the creation of the Afghan Government through Loya Jirg and Bonn Agreement of 2002, which saw the first official state of the nation since 1992 (the Mujhadeen government, which was short lived).
It saw the end of the Civil War, which the Taliban and Northern Alliance were still waging in 2001...
It saw the increase of various human rights throughout the years.. such as an women in the educational system, women in military and political roles, increases (generally) in almost every standard of living.
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WAS IT PERFECT? not at all
and the Afghan Government was clearly very corrupt (and the main culprit for its own collapse).
^ For example, when the Pentagon stopped handling the payment of Afghan military salaries.. the Afghan Government took jurisdiction (this happened in 2018 I believe), this is when corruption ran rampant throughout the military branches... leading to high desertion rates (roughly 1/4) due to elites pocketing $$, as opposed to paying the salaries.
Same applies to most leadership posts... the supplying of materials (for example, many remote posts had little to no resources... much of this due to Governors (Warlords) holding resources for themselves.. or selling it on the black market).
United States played a stabilizing role.. and this continued throughout its involvement.
HOWEVER, as the United States withdrew its involvement in the conflict.. and handed more of that responsibility over to the Afghans themselves
This is when we saw rampant corruption.. a more brutal war... and ultimately the collapse of recent
Funny how the LACK of American involvement... = Collapse
Yet the United States will be blamed for it?
When we will not speak even in the slightest for the corruption of the Afghan officials.. WHO played the biggest role in the collapse of that government.. and the decrease (and what will turn into a disaster) of the basic living standards of the people
how pathetic for you to play such a role. - +1 y
@HanaSwolo Your statements are laughable. The US has been there for 20 years- have they brought peace to the Afghanis?
I’ll literally cite the videos I already cited again, given you can’t be bothered to scroll up lol:
https://youtu.be/6fMX72z8gp8
https://youtu.be/WIDchC_70s0 - +1 y
Video number 2: https://youtu.be/WIDchC_70s0
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So why don’t the Western media show us the pictures of the Western soldiers committing these war crimes as much as they show us pictures of US soldiers with Afghani women and babies?
--- Where do you get the idea that USA war crimes were ignored? The routine reports of Civilian losses by Drone Strikes? The routine reports of USA "bombing weddings"? The routine reports of USA military war crimes (such as the Kandahar Massacre)... the list goes on and on.
This was on American news.. day in. day out.. in both Iraq.. and Afghanistan.
And if you look at my sources on these war crimes, they are not from mainstream media outlets, they are from independent media outlets.
---- Sooo What? as if CNN never reported such things? Such as the USA bombing of a Hospital in Afghanistan in 2015? You choose not to look.
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Lol where did I say these were unknowns or people were denying them? The issue is, certain people don’t really take the human rights violations committed by the West as they do when human rights violation are committed by brown men with beards in turbans- people tend to be very selective in their outrage.
---- Certain people? Who cares?
Western War Crimes have been VERY WELL reported in these conflicts
And none of what you said still takes away from my point that nor the West or the Taliban have brought peace to the Afghani people, but see you’re only ready for half that conversation, clearly.
----- Not at all, I didn't read everything in this post, only the newest ones, and you main post.
My apologies.
My question to you was that.. a question.
It helps me better understand your position on the topic. - +1 y
When did I claim the United States brought "peace"
I claimed the United States brought more stability to Afghanistan.
Those are 2 different issues. - +1 y
You’re completely missing my point lol. I never the Western mainstream media aren’t showing the war crimes that have been committed- what I am saying is the level of reporting on the narrative that they are there “to help the people” and the level of reporting on the war crimes they have committed is very different. See, they’ll report both, but you can’t deny that the narrative that they are there to help the people is far more perpetuated than the narrative that they have committed multiple atrocities upon Afghani people.
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Not at all true. You have a very weak understanding of American media.
The tone of the reporting depends upon the outlet, and who is in office at the time.
For example, when Obama was in office, his handling of the war was always ridiculed by Fox News (which services as a voice of the GOP/Conservative).
While Trump was in office, the same could be said of CNN and MSNBC (who both service as voices of the Dems/Liberals).
For example, in regards to peace negotiations.
Obama traded 5 Taliban figures for 1 American
At the time, CNN applauded such activities as good leadership
Fox News denounced it as weakness.
Same can be said of the Trump peace plan, which was ridiculed by CNN.. but was supported by Fox News as a sign of a leader "Ending endless wars"
It has nothing to do to drive the narrative of "Good America"
and has all to do to drive the narrative of the party. - +1 y
The truth of the matter is
and I believe @Avicenna is correct
You are attempting to generalize issues because of your own biases/prejudice against the United States.
This has less to do with you going on a "fact checking" drive, or attempting to utilize some fair and objective position
than it is your attempt to attack the United States and confirm your own biases.
You continually ask questions like
"Why do they show USA soldiers helping take babies, Why not war crimes"
While at the same time you just accepted that the USA media has shown War crimes?
Perhaps they show this, because its clear 1. The USA is leaving, and is no longer interested in this conflict (for better or worse), and 2. It shows WHAT WILL BECOME SOON (if not already there) a terrible humanitarian crisis
You ask these questions
yet you dont seem to ask "What can be done for Afghanistan now"
You pretend to put yourself up as some sort of grand humanitarian
yet you questioning doesn't even ATTEMPT to handle the actual crisis
Instead you use such issues to go on an Anti-American tirade? - +1 y
I’d disagree with you. See with previous US drone strikes, it was clearly shown that the drones killed innocent civilians instead of military targets- today when the West is pretty much pulling out of Afghanistan if the Western media is fair and unbiased after showing us the pictures and videos of US soldiers with women and children in Afghanistan why do they not also remind us equally as much of the drone strikes that killed innocent men, women, and children for example?
Innocent people died after 9/11 and we always get reminded to “never forget” well I wonder how many innocent people were killed by Western soldiers and US drone strikes- that many people tend to forget? - +1 y
You are contradicting yourself, and forgetting to use logic.
1. You admit that the United States Media heavily reported civilian deaths from drone strikes
YET ask why that would not be the case today?
The answer is simple.
The United States military manpower in Afghanistan in 2010 was 100,000 ... .. in 2014.. it was 16,000.. in 2020.. it was 2,000
THE USA military role in Afghanistan has been getting smaller over the past 10 years
This means fewer combat missions.. this means fewer drone strikes.. ETC
Take for example Trump bombing campaign in 2018-2019, which is thought to have helped push the Taliban to the negotiation table (and their acknowledge of the Afghan Government for the first time).
It was heavily reported the amount of civilian losses.. and many feared it meant the USA was returning in full in Afghanistan
^ it ended up being limited to USA air campaigns.. and only a small increase of 3,000 USA troops.
in 2021, there are no major USA air campaigns
there are no USA soldiers outside what was in the embassy
Why would there be reports of heavy civilian drone strikes?
Why would that be relevant today?
When as you admitted it was heavily reported in previous years when it actually happened? - +1 y
2. These reports by the media are not AT ALL positive for the USA
if anything, its one of the few times Fox News and CNN can both agree on poor American leadership
We see CNN and Fox News agree on the poor handling of the situation by Biden
We see Biden losing support among the American public for his handling of the conflict.. in particular the withdrawal
MANY blame (including in major media) Biden for many of the set backs, because of his inaction
Biden decided to...
a) continue the withdrawal, regardless of what the Taliban did (Which emboldened them)
b) completely mishandle the withdrawal (such as removing military forces.. before removing civilian staff.. . requiring a quick surge of troops just to continue the withdrawal.. which has been deadly as well)
the list goes on.. on the media attacks against the USA Government in its handling of the situation.. and in Biden in particular
MANY going as far as to state that Biden has created a humanitarian disaster in his poor decision making and mismanagement of the crisis.
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Once again you attempt to look for blame on the USA
When you seem to be completely ignoring the reports going on through all the major media outlets.
Everyone agrees (even the public, when polled).. Biden has created a disaster in Afghanistan.. that didn't have to happen
^ to be truthful, a small contingent of USA forces would have scared the Taliban out of attempting any sort of major offensive.. and would have forced the Afghan Government to secure certain problems they were having
Biden by removing the USA military.. created the disaster...
The Taliban were emboldened when they knew the USA military would not be involved
The Afghan Government and its officials decided to pocket what they could and ran
The Afghan Military suffered poor morale when both its government betrayed them, and the United States made it clear it was no longer going to be militarily involved.
Have you not been watching? - +1 y
@HanSwoloRevenge Except that isn’t the truth of the matter. If I’m generalizing based on my own biases then I guess the British soldier who served in Afghanistan who also pretty much also said it’s pretty disingenuous to believe that the Western armies are some lib-femme organizations seeking to liberate the people for example, is the same as me then?
I’m not attacking the US I’m simply stating facts that your army and your drone strikes have killed innocent people, and the people who have benefited most from this occupation are not the Western armies nor the Afghani people- but the wealthiest people, companies such as Lockheed and Martin- and that’s why the West has remained in Afghanistan for the past 20 years, it has very little or pretty much nothing to do with the best interests of the Afghani people.
Except I’m not really putting myself up as a ‘grand humanitarian’ that’s your preconceived notation based off of what I’m saying. My questions do help, because if the West remembers the terrorism and human rights violations they imposed upon Afghani people- then perhaps they should at the very least accept as many Afghani refugees as they can and give them reparations?
Lol and I’m not going on an “anti-American triade” firstly, notice I say “the West” instead of solely America, meaning I’m talking also the UK, Australia etc, so please remember the West is bigger than the USA. And there were war crimes also committed by the UK and Australia so don’t feel special the US are not the only ones lol
Secondly I love how you haven’t even bothered to watch the videos I’ve cited lmao - +1 y
Except that isn’t the truth of the matter. If I’m generalizing based on my own biases then I guess the British soldier who served in Afghanistan who also pretty much also said it’s pretty disingenuous to believe that the Western armies are some lib-femme organizations seeking to liberate the people for example, is the same as me then?
---- because it really doesn't matter does it? I can show soldiers claiming the opposite? The issue isn't in the video, its in the actual reports from the war. Which we both agreed were not positive for the USA.
I’m not attacking the US I’m simply stating facts that your army and your drone strikes have killed innocent people, and the people who have benefited most from this occupation are not the Western armies nor the Afghani people- but the wealthiest people, companies such as Lockheed and Martin- and that’s why the West has remained in Afghanistan for the past 20 years, it has very little or pretty much nothing to do with the best interests of the Afghani people.
------ When did I claim it had anything to do with the interests of Afghan people? I stated there was more stability (therefore a positive) with USA involvement. I never claimed that was the SOLE purpose of the conflict.
ISAF for example was created through a UN mandate to aid in the creation of a government.. and stability in the nation.. a security aparratus.. etc.
So What? Obviously there are more reasons for the conflict.
You once again misread me.
- +1 y
Except I’m not really putting myself up as a ‘grand humanitarian’ that’s your preconceived notation based off of what I’m saying. My questions do help, because if the West remembers the terrorism and human rights violations they imposed upon Afghani people- then perhaps they should at the very least accept as many Afghani refugees as they can and give them reparations?
-- Reparations? Why? Because the United States supported the Northern Alliance, and the new government (elected by the people) that collapsed?
I have no issues with Afghan refugees..
However once again you seem to try to put all the blame on the USA.
I mean should the Pakistani government pay reparations to Afghanistan for its support of the Taliban?
Lets discuss that. - +1 y
Lol and I’m not going on an “anti-American triade” firstly, notice I say “the West” instead of solely America, meaning I’m talking also the UK, Australia etc, so please remember the West is bigger than the USA. And there were war crimes also committed by the UK and Australia so don’t feel special the US are not the only ones lol
--- So then lets perhaps put the blame where it belongs?
Lets ask the Pakistani government to pay reparations for its meddling in the Afghan nation for many years?
For its support (and ultimate its creation) of the Taliban, which led to various crimes in the nation.
To its support (and unwillingness to crackdown) on Taliban insurgents... whom many of their officials (for example their Interior Ministry of Health) accepted.. the Government supported.. along with perhaps funded.. not to mention allowed to live (along with their families) in areas like Islamabad?
Perhaps the Pakistani government could suffer the consequences, and pay reparations for being a NEGATIVE influencer in the nation?
Perhaps Russia, should pay reparations for its involvement in Afghanistan from 1979-89
Where it overthrew the government... and supported a completely unpopular Communist government
^ which the USA supported the Mujhadeen (who were not at all good guys)
not to mention supported the last Afghan Government, which at least held popular support in the nation?
Secondly I love how you haven’t even bothered to watch the videos I’ve cited lmao
-- Because they have no relevance
Your inability to discuss the topic, and rely on videos is cute though. - +1 y
So let us be very serious here.
@SpiderManFan2002
Do you support the condemnation of the Pakistani Government for its involvement in Afghanistan?
Do you demand the Pakistani Government pay reparations to the Afghan people for the issues I highlight above? - +1 y
Furthermore I will correct some of your other misunderstandings (now that im reading through the rest of this post)
1. The Taliban didn't fight the Russians (Soviet Union), that was the Mujhadeen, which was a collection of various groups.
The Taliban didn't exist until 1994.
Actually, many of the Mujhadeen figures, would become Government officials in the last Afghan Govenrment (like Ghani, and Karzai).
But they also included people like Hektmayar (not at all an American ally), and Dostum.
ETC ETC.
It is a common misconception that the Taliban existed during the Soviet conflict.
They did not, they came into existence after the collapse of the Afghan Government in 1992, and the fall of the nation into Civil War through various different parties.
Omar, created the Taliban.. and led them to take over much of the nation.
He was originally a member Hezb-i Islami Khalis.. one of the many different groups fighting the Afghan Government and Soviets during the 1980s. - +1 y
2. You consistent speak about "War Crimes" not being reported in the United States
Yet, you seem to know so much about them (being a westerner).
and we have both come into agreement that various crimes have been heavily reported by the media
^ for example the Drone Strikes... or various massacres by USA forces.. etc.
It is interesting you kept bringing this up. - +1 y
@HanSwoloRevenge
Aww again you’re at it with the “whataboutism” arguments. Funny.
Firstly, Pakistan has taken over a million Afghani refugees- whereas the US or the West as whole hasn’t nearly taken in that many.
Secondly if the Pakistani government have partaken in drone strikes that have killed innocent people, and if their soldiers have committed war crimes against innocent people- then sure, they should be condemned, and pay reparations to the families hurt by them.
And the videos do have plenty of relevance because they act as evidence for my claims rather than just solely taking my word for it, you know, because if we took everyone’s word for anything they said on this thread we’d still be here thinking Pakistanis and Somalis are Middle Easterners lol - +1 y
As I showed you previously
Pakistan/Afghanistan is also considered the "Greater Middle East"
Please do some research on that.
the "Middle East" is not as specific as you claim
Secondly, thank you for admitting Pakistans flaws.
Clearly they deserve most of the blame for this conflict.. and they should pay reparations
Perhaps you could spend your time posting questions about that issue?
Thirdly, no the videos have little to no actual relevance to this topic
Its your cheap way out from avoiding personal answers.
If you knew the topic, you could discuss it.
showing videos of servicemen, or experts.. means little
as I stated, plenty of veterans say the exact opposite about the conflict as well
in the end, it created a deadlock on the conversation
This conversation is between you and me.
not me and some video. - +1 y
What would you say if I just provided you with something like...
UPrager or something?
Youd probably discount it. . and therefore it would be pointless.
So why does it actually matter in a conversation between 2 people putting out their perspectives on the issue
IF you knew the issue.. youd be able to openly source them (such as I with UNAMA for example, or the UNSC mandates.. in my previous replies to you).
Those are more hard sources.. as opposed to eye witness accounts.. which provide nothing but THEIR specific experiences (or political perspectives)
^ because believe it or not.. plenty of Veterans in all wars.. have various views.
NOT ALL USA soldiers supported the fight against the Nazis.
So what? - +1 y
And if you listen to what I actually say and not what you want to hear, I’m not saying the war crimes are not reported by the US at all. What I am saying is that there isn’t a fair level of reporting on them- like 9/11 happened almost 20 years ago now, why does it still get reported every September 11th? Because innocent people who didn’t deserve to die, died right?
So why don’t see the same level of remembrance from the media for the innocent Afghanis for example:
1. Killed by Western soldiers
2. Killed by drone strikes
3. Killed by groups funded by West
Like for example the zero units militias of Afghan troops run by the CIA who were involved in several atrocities- for example, a family of four brothers were murdered and weapons were dropped on their bodies to frame them as terrorists when they weren’t involved in any insurgency? - +1 y
Because 9/11 saw the deaths of 3,000 innocent people in moments.
It led to events that led to 20+ years of conflict
a massive change in politics in the USA
even internally leading to many massive change
People in the USA will tell you the country (for example private rights) changed drastically posted 9/11?
Its the same thing as Pearl Harbor for example.
You don't seem to understand that?
In regards to Afghans/Iraqis killed by the USA
as we both accepted they were both reported heavily
Is there a day of remembrance in Pakistan for the deaths it caused in Afghanistan?
Is there a day of remembrance in Iraq for the deaths it caused in Iran during its Iran Iraq War?
Does Russia have a day in remembrance for the deaths it caused in the Afghan conflict?
Perhaps... Saudi Arabia has a day in remembrance for the deaths its caused through the various terrorist organizations it supports, or its involvement in Yemen?
Perhaps Iran has a day of remembrance for the deaths its caused in its involvement in Iraq?
the list goes on
Why do you hold the USA to different standards?
Why should the USA have a "day of remembrance" just as it does for 9/11 (a disaster the befall itself) for crimes its committed?
- +1 y
Perhaps we should both start a movement
and ask for a National Holiday in Pakistan..
in remembrance for its involvement in Afghanistan
For its support of the Taliban insurgency/regime?
For its support of the Mujhadeen..
for the 100s of thousands of Afghans that died through Pakistan political decisions?
For its proxy (and hot) conflicts with the Indian Government?
Perhaps we should start a petition for Pakistan to have a National mandated day for that? - +1 y
Lol except the Pakistani people do not consider themselves to be Middle Eastern, I can assure you of that. “The Greater Middle East” is nothing but a concept which most people don’t subscribe to.
And plenty of people post about Pakistan- in fact, “sanction Pakistan” was trending a few weeks ago. Here, the issue of Pakistan does not really need to be raised because people seem to be well aware of it, however clearly, what people seem to either not be aware of or simply don’t care about is the immense role the US played in destabilizing Afghanistan- after all the Afghan government was insanely corrupt and backed by Western forces.
The reality is that nor the West or the Taliban are correct in this conflict, they’re both wrong and because of both the Afghan people have suffered greatly.
And as for why I’m proposing the same level of remembrance for the innocent Afghanis killed by the US for example, is because the US is arguably the world’s greatest superpower and those other nations don’t claim to be “exceptional” nor do they act as if they have a moral high ground and attempt to police the world. If the US is going to claim they care about justice, freedom and equal at least practice what you preach. - +1 y
Lol except the Pakistani people do not consider themselves to be Middle Eastern, I can assure you of that. “The Greater Middle East” is nothing but a concept which most people don’t subscribe to.
---- Yes, and the Middle East is a concept is it not? Just as "African" is simply a term.
I am simply teaching you why someone would refer to them as "Middle Eastern" and it would be technically correct.
And plenty of people post about Pakistan- in fact, “sanction Pakistan” was trending a few weeks ago. Here, the issue of Pakistan does not really need to be raised because people seem to be well aware of it, however clearly, what people seem to either not be aware of or simply don’t care about is the immense role the US played in destabilizing Afghanistan- after all the Afghan government was insanely corrupt and backed by Western forces.
----- Did I not just highlight that? Did I not just highlight how corruption led to its downfall? How the Taliban were not strong, and were an easy force to defeat (at least for the USA), but that Afghan corruption created much of the problems? IS that not the main news story we see today?
Did we not hear about corruption (including Private Western companies) for many years in the nation that made things difficult? (For example, contractors... which were heavily reported for many many years).
You continue down this road of "We know about this, but we dont know about Western stuff".
Yet you at the same time you accept Western reports on these issues
you continue to contradict yourself on this topic
REALLY just for the sake of you to have some sort of complaint for the USA
- +1 y
The reality is that nor the West or the Taliban are correct in this conflict, they’re both wrong and because of both the Afghan people have suffered greatly.
------- I never claimed any side was "Correct"
I merely mentioned the USA brought stability, and through its current actions exacerbated a problem? It is commonly accept the USA withdrawal led to much of the current chaos. I believe I have already discussed this.
And as for why I’m proposing the same level of remembrance for the innocent Afghanis killed by the US for example, is because the US is arguably the world’s greatest superpower and those other nations don’t claim to be “exceptional” nor do they act as if they have a moral high ground and attempt to police the world. If the US is going to claim they care about justice, freedom and equal at least practice what you preach.
---- You seem to have a great misunderstanding of this topic.
1. The United States (as a whole) does not view itself in this way. This is why for example we see consistent cultural revolutions, and counter voices.
The USA educational system for example doesn't teach "exceptionalism" (quite the opposite).
On top of this, its not a particularly unique trend to the USA.
PAKISTAN for example claims itself as "Exceptional"
On top of this
"Exceptionalism is the perception or belief that a species, country, society, institution, movement, individual, or time period is "exceptional" (i. e., unusual or extraordinary). The term carries the implication, whether or not specified, that the referent is superior in some way."
Does it necessitate "Good"
no.
the Nazis surely viewed themselves that way. - +1 y
AND INDEED
Sanction Pakistan WAS A TREND
much thanks to the Afghan people
It was one of the few times the Pakistan role was discussed openly by the International community
PERHAPS we should discuss that?
Instead of an issue that has world recognition (the flaws of the USA)
- +1 y
Once again, You seem to avoid the Pakistan issue
LETS DISCUSS :)
What should Pakistan do now?
Should it have a National Holiday recognize its negative role in the nation?
Should Pakistani's be educated about their governments horrible foreign policy?
that not only led to deaths in Afghanistan, but also MANY in Pakistan?
Should we dumb down Pakistan nationalism, and their general "Pro Taliban" views.. as being a negative result throughout much of the world
and being a reinforcement of Jihadist attitudes?
There is a long list of things we should do in Pakistan right?
PERHAPS a complete rework of the educational system
PERHAPS we should contact the United Nations.. and have them investigate Pakistan for crimes against humanity?
Surely something
RIGHT?
@SpiderManFan2002 - +1 y
It’s not really correct to refer to Pakistanis as “Middle Eastern” though because the concept of “The Greater Middle East” is not really one accepted by the vast majority of people, including the Pakistanis themselves.
And no, you did not just highlight that. If the Taliban were easy for the US to defeat then why haven’t they done so in 20 years? They have pretty much the largest most advanced military in the world- yet they couldn’t even beat a group who was far less equipped and not as technologically advanced as they were? You seem to be perpetuating the Western narrative, that it’s purely Afghan corruption (at least this is what you are insinuating by not mentioning Western corruption) the truth is both corruption of the Afghan government and Western forces themselves- led to this, let’s not forget that the Afghan government was backed by the US and other Western countries, billions and billions of dollars were spent on this war, yet it clearly didn’t benefit the Afghani people.
And I never said that “we don’t know about this Western stuff” you might, but lots of people don’t, and if they do they’re not willing to remember that the West also played a huge role in screwing Afghanistan over.
I’m not contradicting myself you’re just failing to understand what I’m saying because either you don’t understand or you don’t want to understand because the truth hurts, let’s be very clear:
The West *does* report on issues of Western corruption, but not as much as they should. For example, I’ve seen so many Western mainstream media platforms discuss and show the concern of human rights under the Taliban. But to be fair in the reporting why do they not also discuss and remind us of the human rights of the Afghani people under their occupation? You can say “because the violations of human rights and war crimes happened then so they discussed them then” yes that is true, but by purely focusing on the Taliban now, takes away focus from the full picture. - +1 y
Arguably Pakistan also has world recognition, if you look online or pretty much any mainstream media outlet they will currently be discussing the role of Pakistan in the conflict, I have no idea where you have been lol.
Secondly, I never avoided the issue of Pakistan. You just want to shift this conversation onto Pakistan for what reason I don’t know, but as I said I think Pakistan should be held accountable and yes they should remember their wrongdoings in this conflict also.
That being said, we also need to remember that Pakistan does not exactly pride itself as “exceptional” nor does it really pride itself on values of freedom and justice in the same way that America does. For example one argument used by the US right now to counter the Taliban is women’s rights, but tell me if they care so much about women’s rights then why is one of their largest allies Saudi Arabia a country that has an appalling record when it comes to women’s rights- Pakistan does not go around preaching to other nations about women’s rights and then contradicts themselves. So the US should either practice what they preach or stop preaching, because if the US is going to preach about things such as women’s rights and human rights then of course people will hold them to a higher standard and expect a higher level of responsibility from them than they do from a country like Pakistan- if Pakistan went around preaching about women’s rights and human rights to the world and used that as a reason to go and occupy countries then of course people would hold them to the same standard they hold the USA. - +1 y
It’s not really correct to refer to Pakistanis as “Middle Eastern” though because the concept of “The Greater Middle East” is not really one accepted by the vast majority of people, including the Pakistanis themselves.
---- Once again, this is an educated perspective of the world.
"The Greater Middle East" debate is the same as the Persian vs Arabian Gulf.
You are making a bigger deal out of the issue than it actually is.
And no, you did not just highlight that. If the Taliban were easy for the US to defeat then why haven’t they done so in 20 years? They have pretty much the largest most advanced military in the world- yet they couldn’t even beat a group who was far less equipped and not as technologically advanced as they were? You seem to be perpetuating the Western narrative, that it’s purely Afghan corruption (at least this is what you are insinuating by not mentioning Western corruption) the truth is both corruption of the Afghan government and Western forces themselves- led to this, let’s not forget that the Afghan government was backed by the US and other Western countries, billions and billions of dollars were spent on this war, yet it clearly didn’t benefit the Afghani people.
---- Once again you didn't read everything I posted
If you check my previous reply, you will notice I mentioned Contractors as being a source of corruption as well (Private Corporations?).. Etc.
Secondly, Yes the Taliban were defeated in 2001, and their insurgency during the USA years were never capable of taking over anything in Afghanistan.
They hide in Pakistan, and had their leadership there (Quetta Shura).
The Taliban were never capable of defeating the United States Military, and were routinely defeated on the battlefield.
Their gains were made AFTER the United States removed most of its soldiers.
These are the simple facts.
- +1 y
And I never said that “we don’t know about this Western stuff” you might, but lots of people don’t, and if they do they’re not willing to remember that the West also played a huge role in screwing Afghanistan over.
---- Its on the News EVERY day, and has been on the NEWS for years.
This is your bias, not mine.
You have clearly avoided western media for many years.
I’m not contradicting myself you’re just failing to understand what I’m saying because either you don’t understand or you don’t want to understand because the truth hurts, let’s be very clear:
The West *does* report on issues of Western corruption, but not as much as they should. For example, I’ve seen so many Western mainstream media platforms discuss and show the concern of human rights under the Taliban. But to be fair in the reporting why do they not also discuss and remind us of the human rights of the Afghani people under their occupation? You can say “because the violations of human rights and war crimes happened then so they discussed them then” yes that is true, but by purely focusing on the Taliban now, takes away focus from the full picture.
--- -Likely because human rights issues were MORE FAIR, and Stable under the USA involvement.
There were fewer massacres (if hardly any to the level of the Taliban).
there simply were not many war crimes, or clear violations by USA forces to report.
the majority of civilian losses during those years were caused by Insurgents as well (according to UNAMA).
However, the incidents WERE reported (as you admit).
The reason there were also an emphasis on Insurgent attacks
was because they were the basis of the MAJORITY of war crimes during the conflict.. (and during the Taliban years of course the Taliban were the basis of most crimes).
But once again, those reports were largely ignored
in comparison to the high profile cases of USA crimes.
You are rewriting history here. - +1 y
Arguably Pakistan also has world recognition, if you look online or pretty much any mainstream media outlet they will currently be discussing the role of Pakistan in the conflict, I have no idea where you have been lol.
---- YES Currently
10 years ago? No, it was even risky to mention it in USA Congress.
You are attempting to take the CURRENT recognition.. and compare it to the near complete silence of years past.
Very rarely did USA politicians even mention it (outside of certain Republicans for example) and it never played a major role in USA strategy as well (outside of the drone strikes)
Secondly, I never avoided the issue of Pakistan. You just want to shift this conversation onto Pakistan for what reason I don’t know, but as I said I think Pakistan should be held accountable and yes they should remember their wrongdoings in this conflict also.
---- Then lets talk about it! :) LETS have a day of remembrance!!
- +1 y
That being said, we also need to remember that Pakistan does not exactly pride itself as “exceptional” nor does it really pride itself on values of freedom and justice in the same way that America does. For example one argument used by the US right now to counter the Taliban is women’s rights, but tell me if they care so much about women’s rights then why is one of their largest allies Saudi Arabia a country that has an appalling record when it comes to women’s rights- Pakistan does not go around preaching to other nations about women’s rights and then contradicts themselves. So the US should either practice what they preach or stop preaching, because if the US is going to preach about things such as women’s rights and human rights then of course people will hold them to a higher standard and expect a higher level of responsibility from them than they do from a country like Pakistan- if Pakistan went around preaching about women’s rights and human rights to the world and used that as a reason to go and occupy countries then of course people would hold them to the same standard they hold the USA.
---- AH! But the Pakistan government denied it supported the Taliban for years.. until just recently? under Imran Khan who accepted it, and the Interior Ministry of Health that accepted the Taliban resided largely in Pakistan?
So many Pakistanis I have spoken to are HEAVY Taliban supporters, and have great pride in the exceptionalism of their nation
EVEN according to Wikipedia article on Exceptionalism
PAKISTAN is listed. (since I guess you like using outside sources such as that)
Hold each side accountable for what they do
That is how you practice what you preach friend.
You are clearly in the "ANTI USA" mood
as opposed to being even handed, and objective on the reality of this situation.
That is what I am asking of you.
- +1 y
You continue to run in circles over and over and over again
speaking on issues I have already debunked.
You are consistently stuck on this assumption USA crimes have never been discussed (Which they have), or they are not "discussed enough" which means next to nothing.
What is enough? What does that even mean?
Americans are routinely educated (and have been) on the many crimes of their nations
We live in an era where the USA is considered evil, and its policies evil, and a net negative on the world
Most media (be it news or entertainment) speaks about these issues.. and have for many many decades
MANY FAMOUS films even DECADES AGO.. speaking about the flaws of the USA.. and its many crimes.. or the corruption within its government of the private industry
Its spoken about nearly every election cycle (and most people recognize with great dishonesty by people who want power)
Yet you seem so stuck on a topic that EVERYONE in the world is very well versed.
- +1 y
It’s not on the news everyday, that’s for sure. Do we see the videos of the drones striking unarmed Afghani people everyday? Do we see videos of the US soldier “kill teams” murderering Afghani people everyday? Do we see the pictures of the Australian soldier who drank beer out of an Afghani’s prosthetic leg? Do we see pictures of US army urinating on the bodies of Afghanis? What news are you watching because I surely don’t see this on the BBC as much as I’ll see Western soldiers holding Afghani children and with the Afghani women attempting to help them? It’s very possible that the fathers of those children, could have also been killed any one of the Western armies.
Human rights were not “more fair” under the US, when you had cases like I mentioned above. The West also violated many rights of the Afghani people- which you seem to be playing down a lot.
The issue is not, who committed more war crimes- the reality is, both sides committed war crimes, and crimes against humanity and neither really had the best interests of the people at heart, and both screwed over the Afghani people immensely.
The reason I am mentioning the US more here, because what would be the point in mentioning something the people on this site are pretty much aware of? The crimes of the Taliban. Why state the obvious, what everybody already knows? What many seem to be not willing to accept on here is that the US and the West also did not benefit the Afghani people, and that over the past 20 years Western intervention has not benefited the Afghani people.
The reality is many people yourself included are not “well versed” on this because if you were you wouldn’t be supporting Western occupation in Afghanistan- because for the past 20 years it has not benefited the people at all, similarly the Taliban also did not benefit the people when they were in power. Nobody is right in this. - +1 y
It’s not on the news everyday, that’s for sure. Do we see the videos of the drones striking unarmed Afghani people everyday? Do we see videos of the US soldier “kill teams” murderering Afghani people everyday? Do we see the pictures of the Australian soldier who drank beer out of an Afghani’s prosthetic leg? Do we see pictures of US army urinating on the bodies of Afghanis? What news are you watching because I surely don’t see this on the BBC as much as I’ll see Western soldiers holding Afghani children and with the Afghani women attempting to help them? It’s very possible that the fathers of those children, could have also been killed any one of the Western armies.
--- Once again You are delusional?
Do you not remember for example the Iraqi Prison? Or the American special forces urinating on dead Taliban soldiers? ETC. Such stories were common place in the USA..
You continue to ignore this reality
pretending it never happened.
Human rights were not “more fair” under the US, when you had cases like I mentioned above. The West also violated many rights of the Afghani people- which you seem to be playing down a lot.
---- Yes, they surely were more fair under the USA
Did the USA or Afghan Government commit anything similar to the atrocities committed by the Taliban in 1990s? no.. not even close.
Get a grip on yourself.
The issue is not, who committed more war crimes- the reality is, both sides committed war crimes, and crimes against humanity and neither really had the best interests of the people at heart, and both screwed over the Afghani people immensely.
--- Sure? Who disagrees with that?
- +1 y
The reason I am mentioning the US more here, because what would be the point in mentioning something the people on this site are pretty much aware of? The crimes of the Taliban. Why state the obvious, what everybody already knows? What many seem to be not willing to accept on here is that the US and the West also did not benefit the Afghani people, and that over the past 20 years Western intervention has not benefited the Afghani people.
--- WHO in their right mind knows nothing about crimes committed by the USA?
We get questions on here about this all the time.
Where do you get the idea people are clueless about it?
The reality is many people yourself included are not “well versed” on this because if you were you wouldn’t be supporting Western occupation in Afghanistan- because for the past 20 years it has not benefited the people at all, similarly the Taliban also did not benefit the people when they were in power. Nobody is right in this.
--- so which was worse? Taliban regime of Afghanistan, or the Afghan Government?
Do you say the USA military and the Taliban are the SAME?
- +1 y
Also I literally said in the reply that Pakistan and pretty much any country should be held accountable for their crimes and remember their wrongdoings, so how am I not being even-handed here? The issue is that the US as a nation that preaches certain things to the world, should be held to a higher standard as they present themselves as being that very high standard.
- +1 y
It’s not necessarily a matter of “which is worse” the reality is both are terrible, and bring about misery for the Afghani people. Both have committed atrocities upon the people, involved themselves in corruption- I wouldn’t argue they are the same but both are incredibly poor choices for the Afghani people and none have their best interests at heart.
- +1 y
I don't know
1. 2012 U. S. Deplores Video of Marines Urinating on Taliban". New York Times
2. 2005 . "In U. S. Report, Brutal Details of 2 Afghan Inmates' Deaths" New York Times
3. 2010 "Stryker soldiers allegedly plotted to kill Afghan civilians". The Seattle Times
ETC
you act as if these were NOT major news stories in the USA.
reported by CNN, MSNBC.. etc.. and all outlets that led to outcry and movements against the conflict..
Please educate yourself. - +1 y
And the United States for its crimes, are well known throughout the world.
Everyone knows about the Bombings of Nagasaki and Hiroshima (regardless of the arguments about it)
Everyone talks about Slavery in the USA, and the historical treatment of Black people in particular
Everyone speaks about the United States relationship with Native Americans
Or the various high profile war crimes committed by the United States
Everyone speaks about the Crimes committed by the United States in Vietnam for example
The issue is that OTHER nations (for the most part), are often ignored for their crimes?
- +1 y
The issue is, the United States in comparison to much of the world is fairly OPEN about its crimes.
We see this especially through movements in the country that make it acceptable to SPEAK about such issues.
Take for example, the Anti-Government attitudes in both parties.
We can get the HEAVY NEGATIVES (even exaggerated) by both the Democrats and Republicans
Which would NOT be acceptable in most nations around the world
MANY nations (for example China), don't even recognize their crimes
CHINA for example, does not even allow mentions of Tiananmen Square within its own nation.. OR properties (like Tik Tok).
- +1 y
As far as I’m aware the Taliban did not commit drone strikes upon unarmed people, that’s not to say their atrocities weren’t disgusting but at the same time so are ones committed by the US. Just because you view the US’s atrocities as “not similar” to the Taliban does not make them any less harmful to the people. They were not more fair under the US because people were still suffering and being killed and being dehumanized- that’s not fair, what you’re essentially saying is “our atrocities weren’t as bad as theirs therefore we were better than them” but were they? The US atrocities may not have been as brutal as the Taliban, but none the less they were still atrocities- how is that “more fair” “more fair” would have been bringing about progress for the Afghani people in terms of bringing them peace and security- but given the atrocities they committed the US Army clearly didn’t do that?
By the way, you’ve been questioning me on my support for certain things so let me question you- do you support the US Army in the atrocities they commit upon the Afghani people? - +1 y
If the US is “more open” about its crimes then why are people who exposed these crimes pretty much paying with their lives? For example, Assange? Hale?
- +1 y
So, maybe you should start directing your disgust towards nations that actually IGNORE their criminal history.
The issue, is that is not spoken about
We don't speak about the crimes in Iran... in Iran? Where is the discussion of the routine executions? or its involvement in supporting various organizations that have led to the deaths of many many thousands? OR its support of regime changes? Where is the education of Iranian people on this topic?
Or perhaps Saudi Arabia can start educating its own people on its support of terrorist organizations? Or its support or regime changes? or its various military actions that have led to the deaths of many thousands?
PERHAPS Russia, or China, or many of the other great powers that are NOT in the West.. . Can start educating their citizens on the crimes of their nations..
with Mao and Stalin being killers beyond any Hitler?
or the MANY MANY MANY MANY crimes (acknowledged in the West, but not as heavily in those nations) that were committed by those regimes
Or perhaps Vietnam, and the millions its killed in its conflict to unify the nation? the Boat people? the Re education camps? the support of various negative actors in the region (like Pol Pot) that led to the deaths of millions of people?
the list goes on and on and on
The United States at least recognizes these issues
educates its citizens on the negative aspects of its history
FORIEGN POLICY DEBATES in the United States are almost ALWAYS negative?
Have you even ATTEMPTED to watch Republican or Democrat primaries? REGARDLESS of how its used.. its common sense.. and common knowledge in the United States that USA involvement aroudn the world is not ALWAYS positive
Even Trump ran on a ticket of "isolationism" and having little involvement in the world because of its negative track record
Do you pay attention AT ALL? - +1 y
As I said, watch the videos I provided not for the sake of this argument but for perspective. I’m not attempting to argue through the videos but the videos provide evidence that I simply cannot give in words.
- +1 y
As far as I’m aware the Taliban did not commit drone strikes upon unarmed people, that’s not to say their atrocities weren’t disgusting but at the same time so are ones committed by the US. Just because you view the US’s atrocities as “not similar” to the Taliban does not make them any less harmful to the people. They were not more fair under the US because people were still suffering and being killed and being dehumanized- that’s not fair, what you’re essentially saying is “our atrocities weren’t as bad as theirs therefore we were better than them” but were they? The US atrocities may not have been as brutal as the Taliban, but none the less they were still atrocities- how is that “more fair” “more fair” would have been bringing about progress for the Afghani people in terms of bringing them peace and security- but given the atrocities they committed the US Army clearly didn’t do that?
---- This is where you show you ignorance.
1. The Taliban regime killing many 10s of thousands of people, and and launched ethnic cleansing campaigns against minority communities (such as the Hazaras).
On top of this, the Taliban Insurgency was ALWAYS at fault for the majority of yearly deaths according to UNAMA. This only got worse as the United States Military left
^ feel free to check the UNAMA records.
YES! The United States military committed atrocities, but those were few and far between in comparison to the Taliban.
They were also NOT favorable.. or used as a tool.. as they were for the Taliban.
By the way, you’ve been questioning me on my support for certain things so let me question you- do you support the US Army in the atrocities they commit upon the Afghani people?
--- Of course not.
Those individuals who commit them should always suffer the consequences (some do, some dont sadly). - +1 y
If the US is “more open” about its crimes then why are people who exposed these crimes pretty much paying with their lives? For example, Assange? Hale?
--- Likely because Assange and Hale released information that was detrimental to USA policies.
However, the atrocities that you mention were already known and widely discussed by the public.
You act as if people knew nothing about American atrocities in Afghanistan prior to this.
This is just ignorance on your part.
THE USA is not perfect, and has CLEARLY tried to hide issues
HOWEVER, as I stated
in comparison to many other nations
ITS very open about its problems
It doesn't wholesale deny everything
MANY nations do.
Turkey for example, doesn't even accept the Armenian Genocide happened.
According to them, its not even real history.
Such things don't exist in the USA.
You are trying to compare to completely different types of issues. - +1 y
Furthermore in a previous point
2. The US Army committed far fewer atrocities in Afghanistan than the Taliban
and actually brought a level of stability to the nation.
Let us remember the progress made during those 20 years..
that has very quickly collapsed in the previous month.
There is simply no denial of that
YOU LOVE THE NEWS RIGHT?
That is the main discussion of WHAT happens to Afghanistan now
WHAT happens to the Afghan women? Or WHAT happens to any sort of system where Afghans have a chance?
THEY had a chance during USA military involvement
it was not perfect
But it was better
HOWEVER, once the USA left (which was starting many years ago)
things just got worse and worse.
This is the reality
The Taliban never brought this
and there are many questions WHAT will happen to Afghanistan now that the Government has collapsed
You are denying the reality that is in front of you. - +1 y
You are just attempting to argue a losing fight.
This direction you are taking the conversation will lead you nowhere.
The United States in comparison to MOST nations.. is quite open.. honest.. and its track record is VERY well known (among its citizens, and others).
It is NOT a perfect nation
and there are things that select other nations do far better
there is no doubt of that.
The fact you are even HAVING this discussion with me
is a proof of that - +1 y
@SpiderManFan2002
But do you think that the Taliban could have been "defeated" in 1989 if a fraction of the money was used for the covert ops against the USSR (let alone the US wars in Afghanistan) had been spent on building infrastructure in Afghanistan? And was the US right to support the Mujahedeen in the first place?
- +1 y
You also argue so much from this
"American Exceptionalism" "America is Perfect" type argument
that AS AN American. I've never MET an American that believes it.
These are ideas of what the USA "can be"
or to some "what it was" (but likely not)
The fact you have to consistently ground your arguments around a concept that is not commonly accepted in the USA... nor is it taught... nor it is particularly important to most Americans (especially now)
something that is at best, used as a "We are doing amazing" type speech by Politicians during election time
is pretty sad. - +1 y
@Ad_Quid_Orator ^ those are good questions
id be curious her answers on that as well.
She clearly has a position of "USA go away"
However, should the USA have supported the Anti-Government forces during the Soviet conflict
or just allow the Soviet Union to do what it wants?
GOOD Question - +1 y
^ I will further add
@SpiderManFan2002
As I stated, the USA has done its fair share of terrible things.. no doubt
However, its history is relatively mundane, and not as "Evil" as MANY other peoples histories.
The fact is, the United States has nothing that is resembles the Holocaust, or massive millions and millions spanning conflicts started by itself.. for ethnic cleansing.. or religious brutality... etc...
its even overseen one of the most peaceful eras in human history.. as well as one of the most prosperous...
Like I said, its had its fair share of "evil" acts
However, in comparison to MANY... its a relatively "good" "empire"
- +1 y
@SpiderManFan2002
I will further mention that I hold a History degree...
Soooo.. its a bit of my specialty on this topic.
I understand your Anti-American sentiments.
They are common place..
and the fact such sentiments and knowledge can be spread so easily in the West, SHOWS the openness of Western society in general
ATTEMPT this in most Muslim nations?
Try to speak about again Iran in Iran
Or perhaps against the Chinese regime in China
etc
There are far far worse places
You are actually very lucky to live in the West. - +1 y
Your Foreign Policy debates are negative because your Foreign Policy is negative and has bright misery to many. It’s no good having debates, saying all the correct words but then doing nothing to change it.
Awww look how pressed you are, because I’m directing my disgust at America. Why would I be mentioning other countries criminal history in a debate about the US? Moreover, no other country in the world is currently involved in as many wars as the US is.
Secondly I never displayed ignorance given I never really denied any of that, my point is the US harmed innocent Afghanis in different ways to the Taliban, and sure it may not have been as many but none the less the fact that they did is also brutal and inhumane. The Afghan warlogs revealed torture, death squads, individual group killings, I mean Daniel Hale’s works revealed that 90% of the victims of the US drone program in Afghanistan were innocent bystanders yet as a result of exposing these things both Hale and Assange are paying the price today- a very different reality from the rosy picture you’re trying to paint of the US being “open” with its war crimes. Tell me had Hale and Assange not leaked such information do you think we would know about it today? If the US was so open and honest then why are Assange and Hale facing imprisonment meanwhile Bush and Obama who are pretty much war criminals are free? - +1 y
Your Foreign Policy debates are negative because your Foreign Policy is negative and has bright misery to many. It’s no good having debates, saying all the correct words but then doing nothing to change it.
-------- Wow, coming from the woman that isn't willing to do anything to change the policies of other nations and their atrocities against many.
What an ignorant statement.
Awww look how pressed you are, because I’m directing my disgust at America. Why would I be mentioning other countries criminal history in a debate about the US? Moreover, no other country in the world is currently involved in as many wars as the US is.
-------- Oh, because no other nation is fighting multiple conflicts? The UK isn't? Nor is Germany? Russia surely isn't? Turkey isn't currently fighting on multiple fronts right now?
You simply choose to be ignorant.
Secondly I never displayed ignorance given I never really denied any of that, my point is the US harmed innocent Afghanis in different ways to the Taliban, and sure it may not have been as many but none the less the fact that they did is also brutal and inhumane. The Afghan warlogs revealed torture, death squads, individual group killings, I mean Daniel Hale’s works revealed that 90% of the victims of the US drone program in Afghanistan were innocent bystanders yet as a result of exposing these things both Hale and Assange are paying the price today- a very different reality from the rosy picture you’re trying to paint of the US being “open” with its war crimes. Tell me had Hale and Assange not leaked such information do you think we would know about it today? If the US was so open and honest then why are Assange and Hale facing imprisonment meanwhile Bush and Obama who are pretty much war criminals are free?
- +1 y
--- You not only give out misleading information
but you also mischaracterize my statements
the 90% claim is for example NOT for the Drone program as a whole, but a short period of time (for 35 specific targets).
So you continue to put out misinformation... not to mention Assange and the like were known to have done the same thing, and be on the payroll of other nations.
None the less,
Yes the United States was far more open about this
they didn't openly deny every single thing did they? No..
China would.
You clearly recognize you are wrong on this topic
and you think that individual cases somehow make you correct.
No my friend... you are terrible wrong
considering these are nations that DENY very well known atrocities
Get over yourself
Youve lost this debate. - +1 y
@HanSwoloRevenge lol bro she has lost every single time she just doesn't get the bigger picture and doesn't understand war is not pretty & all the countries who adopt Islam as a way of life are failed countries and are proven to not be able to survive in 2021 and now. they're all war torn shit holes and that started way before the west intervened into those places. All because extremist wanna fight a holy war and make the world muslim and rule under islamic law & won't stop until they do & thats truly sad and she want to argue the whole worlds effertos agaisnt all the extremist is wrong because it wasn't done nicely lol typical SJW 2000 kid era stuff
- +1 y
@Fuentes I agree with you sadly.
She doesn't entirely grasp what I am saying..
She just wants to go on the Anti-American.. or Anti-Western.. rampage
without realizing THOSE nations are by far the most open and progressive in the world.
Lots of her arguments make little to no sense
She acts as if Westerners (and Americans in particular) don't understand the atrocities committed by their governments.. Or they are just oblivious to the history of crimes their peoples have committed
... Even though at the same time she lives in the west... uses largely western sources.. that mention all of these crimes.
Even her concepts of Afghanistan, show she doesn't entirely understand the history of the conflict
Nor does she seems to have any answers to WHAT should be done.
Its just simply "BOOO FU USA"
as opposed to anything actually constructive.
Its just ignorance.
and he keeps running in circles on the same issues
and making a fool of herself.
Honestly, I hold a History degree... and I am appalled by her lack of historical knowledge..
or her understanding of current events.
But she is also young. - +1 y
@HanSwoloRevenge
Why are you changing the subject entirely now? Back to the “you’re lucky to be here” argument- that’s not what we’re discussing. I mean- yes, the West is open to a certain extent but I’d love to hear you say this to Assange, Hale etc- I mean since the West is all about openness and freedom- shouldn’t people such as Assange and Hale be celebrated instead of imprisoned?
Where did I argue that in terms of free speech China or Iran is better? I didn’t, so why have you taken it there? Go tell Assange and Hale that they’re lucky to live in the West. I dare you.
Lol if I lost the debate, you wouldn’t need to say it- moreover, I wasn’t aware this was a competition-
Also, answer me these questions:
1. If the West is all about openness and freedom then why are figures such as Assange and Hale being imprisoned? Should they not be celebrated given they brought mass injustice to light?
2. I never said it represented the drone program as a whole, but what I was trying to get at what I should have been clearer about is that the Operation Haymaker killed over 1,000 people- and though not every drone strike killed innocent people, several did- for example in Afghanistan it is estimated that drone strikes, airy strikes, missile attacks have killed up to 4,000-10,000 civilians. Those aren’t tiny numbers.
- +1 y
Why are you changing the subject entirely now? Back to the “you’re lucky to be here” argument- that’s not what we’re discussing. I mean- yes, the West is open to a certain extent but I’d love to hear you say this to Assange, Hale etc- I mean since the West is all about openness and freedom- shouldn’t people such as Assange and Hale be celebrated instead of imprisoned?
---- 1. I am not changing the topic, by adding extra. I have stayed on topic, and answered each of your paragraphs with my own. Do not make such claims. They make you look pathetic.
2. I mentioned you being lucky, because the West IS far more open than the rest of the world
What would have happened to Assange or Hale in China? North Korea? Russia? Saudi Arabia?
Would they have treated them better than the USA? No
They would have been more harshly punished.
ANY sort of actions against the Government are brutalized immediately
The West is however MORE open
Did I say it was perfect? No.
Once again you attempt putting words in my mouth
Its very pathetic of you.
Where did I argue that in terms of free speech China or Iran is better? I didn’t, so why have you taken it there? Go tell Assange and Hale that they’re lucky to live in the West. I dare you.
-------- Because Assange and Hale releasing records in China, would have been treated just as harshly? No they would have been executed.
Lol if I lost the debate, you wouldn’t need to say it- moreover, I wasn’t aware this was a competition-
--- You have because you haven't brought any good points out.. and have been debunked several times.
- +1 y
Also, answer me these questions:
1. If the West is all about openness and freedom then why are figures such as Assange and Hale being imprisoned? Should they not be celebrated given they brought mass injustice to light?
--- I stated, the West is more open, not that its perfect.
Once again putting words in my mouth.
2. I never said it represented the drone program as a whole, but what I was trying to get at what I should have been clearer about is that the Operation Haymaker killed over 1,000 people- and though not every drone strike killed innocent people, several did- for example in Afghanistan it is estimated that drone strikes, airy strikes, missile attacks have killed up to 4,000-10,000 civilians. Those aren’t tiny numbers.
--- Of course not, however its much smaller than those inflicted by the insurgents, who used civilian deaths as a way to destroy government morale.
This is universal regardless of conflict.
MANY of the worst terrorist attacks for example, were launched in Iraq, against civilian populations.
I don't see you going out of your way to mention the main perpetrators of civilian loss during the past 20+ years of conflict. - +1 y
You just consistently bring up pointless issues.
Lets go over it again
1. I never claimed the United States (or the West) is perfect in its representation, or its openness.
However, I stated it was MORE OPEN than the rest of the world.
This is simply a fact.
The West does provide more rights to its people.. the ability to speak out.. and is not as aggressive in its government domination of various programs (like education) where everything is "State is Good" is you see in many other nations.
The Fact is, the West is more open.
It is more open to various races, sexualities, genders.. ETC... is it perfect? NO
However, in comparison to what happens in other parts of the world.. it is FAR better.
It is more open about the negative aspects of its governance, its policies.. ETC..
In most every other part of the world, such things are almost nonexistence.
It is normal for a government to completely ignore the majority of its atrocities.. and pretend it never happened.
THIS does not happen in the west
ONCE AGAIN, is the West perfect in this regard? NO
But it is much much better than the rest of the world. - +1 y
2. Lets be honest.
You as a Muslim, would much rather live in the USA, than you would in Somalia, or Pakistan, or Afghanistan, or Iran.. etc
and there is a reason.
You are currently acting out in a way that would NOT be acceptable in many of those nations
HELL it would NOT be acceptable in a nation like China, or even in many regards in Russia.
You consistently seem to ignore this reality.
3. You LOVE to highlight the negative influences of the USA.
while ignoring most every other nation
and even when brought up
you simple saying "Well Exceptionalism... Soooo different standards"
You are acting ignorant
and childish.
and you have show some very pathetic standards here.
Your logic simply doesn't work - +1 y
To be honest, your ignorance throughout most of this conversation shows me
your main interest is "America bashing" or "West Bashing"
You have no real interest on discussing the issues
and going through your long list of replies on other questions
over the many many months (especially since I've been here before)
Its clear its about your only interest.
That is very sad, and very pathetic. - +1 y
@HanSwoloRevenge
Lots of Westerners don’t understand the atrocities committed by the West. In my experience, many have either equated innocent Afghanis to the Taliban or simply dismissed them and gone onto to talk about atrocities committed by the Taliban.
I understand what you’re saying that the West allows me to have free speech in order to speak against them which is a privilege I wouldn’t get in other countries, that being said- though they are more open in that sense, still when it comes to the things that really make a difference such as the footage Assange and Hale exposed- they’re still paying the price for it today as opposed to being celebrated for exposing the truth. And do you think had Hale and Assange not exposed such wrongdoings that we’d know about such atrocities today? Just because the West allows me to speak freely to a certain extent- does mean we should ignore cases such as Assange and Hale who really made a difference? Because in reality what difference does one individual simply speaking against the West make to the government? It doesn’t really expose them in any way given we’re just talking about things that had already been exposed- but for Assange and Hale who exposed things that really did make a difference, they’re paying the price for it today.
And moreover, with China and Iran- they don’t advertise themselves as free and fair nations, and that may not be correct- but hey at least they are honest about it.
Meanwhile with the US, while there is some truth to their openness- let’s not pretend they’re completely honest and open as many perceive them to be. Because clearly they’re not with what happened to Assange and Hale. It’s hypocrisy at its peak.
Moreover I never said you stated the West was perfect, you’re putting words into my mouth. What I am saying is when it comes using freedom in a way that really exposes the government the West will act unlike a democratic free state.
- +1 y
Lots of Westerners don’t understand the atrocities committed by the West. In my experience, many have either equated innocent Afghanis to the Taliban or simply dismissed them and gone onto to talk about atrocities committed by the Taliban.
--- Sure there is ignorance among the specifics of events (that is normal). However, being an American, and a Historian, and a Teacher. The atrocities committed by the USA are very well taught in most every school.
Nearly every page has a negative portrayal of the USA, and very rarely are the positive highlighted at all.
ITs been this way in the educational community for many decades now (especially since the 60s)
I understand what you’re saying that the West allows me to have free speech in order to speak against them which is a privilege I wouldn’t get in other countries, that being said- though they are more open in that sense, still when it comes to the things that really make a difference such as the footage Assange and Hale exposed- they’re still paying the price for it today as opposed to being celebrated for exposing the truth. And do you think had Hale and Assange not exposed such wrongdoings that we’d know about such atrocities today? Just because the West allows me to speak freely to a certain extent- does mean we should ignore cases such as Assange and Hale who really made a difference? Because in reality what difference does one individual simply speaking against the West make to the government? It doesn’t really expose them in any way given we’re just talking about things that had already been exposed- but for Assange and Hale who exposed things that really did make a difference, they’re paying the price for it today.
- +1 y
---- Once again you are conflating issues here.
You are highlighting an example of people speaking out that get negative responses.. THIS HAPPENS.
As I said, the West is not perfect.
However, also as I said, its far far more open than other parts of the world
Something you just continue to bypass.
You are giving harsh criticisms to what is essentially the most open and free part of the world.. as opposed to pointing it towards parts of the world that are a aggressive.
And moreover, with China and Iran- they don’t advertise themselves as free and fair nations, and that may not be correct- but hey at least they are honest about it.
---- They have an emphasis of the perfection of the state, and the happiness of their people? A complete denial of the reality of the situation. They outright lie about most every single issue within their nation.. they censor information.. and enforce strict guidelines
while denying such things to the world
- +1 y
If China and Iran claimed to be free and democratic nations, then it would make sense for you to compare them to the West, considering they don’t- it makes very little sense for you to do so. Western nations claim to be these ‘free democracies’ yet that standard they claim to be is not always lived up to, and when you claim to be high standards people will hold you to those high standards. I’m not being “anti” anything I’m simply holding the West to the high standards they claim to be of.
- +1 y
Meanwhile with the US, while there is some truth to their openness- let’s not pretend they’re completely honest and open as many perceive them to be. Because clearly they’re not with what happened to Assange and Hale. It’s hypocrisy at its peak.
---- Would you rather live in the USA and its freedoms, or would you rather live in Iran?
Pick one.
You continue to conflate issues, and takes the words of certain politicians. as opposed to the general understanding
You assume the USA views itself as the "beacon of freedom"
Most Americans do not see it this way.. Most politicians do not see it this way
Stop bringing up nonsensical points.
It means little to nothing
I live in the USA.. and these perspectives are not spoken hardly at all
They are not even shared by most of our leaders.
Moreover I never said you stated the West was perfect, you’re putting words into my mouth. What I am saying is when it comes using freedom in a way that really exposes the government the West will act unlike a democratic free state.
--- As I said, Yes it happens
However, the West is far more open and free than the rest of the world. - +1 y
If China and Iran claimed to be free and democratic nations, then it would make sense for you to compare them to the West, considering they don’t- it makes very little sense for you to do so. Western nations claim to be these ‘free democracies’ yet that standard they claim to be is not always lived up to, and when you claim to be high standards people will hold you to those high standards. I’m not being “anti” anything I’m simply holding the West to the high standards they claim to be of.
-- I actually have a friend from Iran
Yes, they do view themselves as being nearly perfect, and a free state.
YES, they do view themselves as being far ahead of the United States in their degree of freedom
This is commonly mentioned by the Iranian regime to its people (is it accepted? not always.. hence the riots).
It views itself as a free nation, and its leadership consistently speak about it.
The same thing applies to the Chinese doctrine. - +1 y
As for giving harsh criticisms- I harshly criticize those nations when that criticism is due. For example, if we’re discussing the issue of the Uighurs, religious freedom in China, etc I will harshly criticize the CCP- the CCP tend to deny that anything is happening to the Uighurs which is just flat out false, and when I’m discussing the issue with supporters of the CCP I will be harsh. Why would I need to be harsh on China however, in a conversation about the US? It’s like if we’re discussing the Uighur’s in China, and somebody brings up Islamophobia in the US- why would I bother talking about that in a conversation about the Uighur’s? It doesn’t make any sense.
And Assange and Hale have received more than negative responses- they’ve faced imprisonment. - +1 y
I just don't think you entirely get how this stuff works?
China doesn't go around and say "Yes we oppress you, obey"
That is not how those nations dominate.
They instruct their people in a certain way, tell them that they have great freedoms.
They say the USA and other more free parts of the world are terrible to live in.. that they are nasty... and undesirable
That the nation (be it Iran, or North Korea, or China, or Russia) is by far a preferable place to live.. .. they outright censor information that allows their people to see WHAT exactly is happening...
This is normal throughout the world.
You consistently speak about this "Beacon of Freedom" for the USA
because the USA is the most powerful... and ESPECIALLY through its media.. has a great influence thoughout the world (especially the West).
You see these things.. because its Americanized Media... or perspectives.
^ and honestly you ignore every other voice (there are MORE Anti-American concepts in the USA.. than there are Pro-American concepts... we dont have a "Everything is perfect" type mentality.. no news media reports that way.. if often reports on "Exceptionalism" or "Perfection" as what can be.. not what is)
^ FOR EXAMPLE
Political elites speak about it as either a "past" concept (like Republicans referring to the 50s golden age) or Dems referring to what the future will be.. ETC
While in many other nations you have the regimes speaking about it as a CURRENT trend.
and its largely ignored
because they don't have as much of an image as the USA
- +1 y
As for giving harsh criticisms- I harshly criticize those nations when that criticism is due. For example, if we’re discussing the issue of the Uighurs, religious freedom in China, etc I will harshly criticize the CCP- the CCP tend to deny that anything is happening to the Uighurs which is just flat out false, and when I’m discussing the issue with supporters of the CCP I will be harsh. Why would I need to be harsh on China however, in a conversation about the US? It’s like if we’re discussing the Uighur’s in China, and somebody brings up Islamophobia in the US- why would I bother talking about that in a conversation about the Uighur’s? It doesn’t make any sense.
--- Probably because what is happening to the Ughyers in China, is far worse than anything happening to a minority community in the West.
If you want to actually be constructive.. speak about issues that have the greatest impact..
the fact is the West is not perfect.. and there are problems
but its nowhere close to the issues in other nations.. . that largely go unnoticed
And Assange and Hale have received more than negative responses- they’ve faced imprisonment.
--- and in China they would have been executed.. and on one would have known or cared
Yet in the West, it created an outcry.. and many different movements..
and the knowledge of a young 18 year old British girl. - +1 y
And once again, you haven't really given any constructive arguments on WHAT TO DO
Take Afghanistan for example
We both agree the USA removing its influence created a vacuum that led to the Taliban taking over.
This leaves a lot of questions that you are ignoring.
1. Should the USA have withdrawn? Because the entire withdrawal (and unwillingness to use its strength to force the Taliban back to the peace table), has led to a humanitarian crisis. that will likely get worse and worse?
THEREFORE...
a) should the USA have stayed to some degree in the country until it could be assured of a peace settlement?
b) Is the USA playing a more negative role by leaving?
HOWEVER, considering the USA is leaving.. and we NOW have this crisis..
What is the actual answer to this all of this?
What should be done?
Should it simply be ignored now?
Because all I hear from you is "USA is bad, it made bad decision, it shouldn't be involved"
Well, Afghanistan is now an example of the USA no longer being involved
without its involvement
the nation is falling into chaos and complete ruin
2021, is FAR WORSE for Afghanistan... than any period between the collapse of the Taliban regime in 2001.. and 2020..
and it will likely get far worse without any sort of USA involvement (which isn't likely to happen). - +1 y
So perhaps if this is what only Assange and Hale have revealed- do you not think that there are perhaps things that haven’t been revealed that are far more disturbing and shocking?
Secondly, I know it’s not as simple as “Yes, we oppress you, you obey” but what I find ironic is you’re saying all this about China which is true, but isn’t that what you’re literally doing in this conversation?
You think the USA is “better” (note not perfect but better) that you have certain freedoms, that living in China or Iran would be worse- but have you actually lived in China or Iran? I’m not necessarily defending these nations by the way, but I’m simply saying how do you know living in China or Iran is worse than living in the US? Do you know from experience or have you just heard that from secondary sources.
I mean because I’ve spoken to CCP supporters who argue similarly to you tbh. Like for example, you seem to downplay Western war crimes because you’ll say to a lot of my examples “that’s one specific case” but the funny thing is CCP supporters will often tell you the same thing about the Uighurs. That Xinxiang is just one city and that China has 12 Muslim provinces and allows Muslims to open businesses for example. That’s all well and good that for the other Muslim provinces they’re not facing persecution but it still doesn’t change the fact that the Uighurs are even if XinXiang is one city and that the Uighurs are one group of Muslims.
Equally for Iran someone could easily argue for the case of hijab for example, well at least in Iran you could leave your house in the hijab without worrying that you may get assaulted for simply wearing the hijab- and that is true, and that’s a plus- but I wouldn’t have the choice to take it off, either and I’d most likely face a penalty if I did- and then the pro-Iranian government person could just respond with: “Well Iran isn’t perfect but at least you can wear the hijab without fear of getting attacked for it here”
- +1 y
I will give you my perspective on the Afghanistan issue.
1. The Biden Withdrawal was absolutely unnecessary, careless, and had an extreme negative impact. The current process is ultimately a humiliation to the USA that could have easily been avoided.
For example,
a) The United States could have kept a small contingent of troops to enforce the Taliban to keep to the peace talks. They stalled because they knew of the change of leadership (the Afghan Government did the same thing). Biden could have enforced the Taliban.. and in this process it could have avoided the current chaos.. HOWEVER.. Biden turned a Conditional Withdrawal (where the Taliban had to fulfill requirements) to an Unconditional.. which only emboldened them, weakened the Afghan Government, and helped created a lot of chaos
2. The main blame goes to the Afghan Government, and its extreme corruption. This was an issue that would not be fixable (especially under Ghani). However, it was an issue that was manageable. The Taliban feared the USA military, but it did not fear the Afghan military. The USA military was the main chip preventing collapse.. once it was gone... everyone recognize chaos would ensue. The Afghan officials sold out their people... many leaders left immediately.. or made secret deals.. etc.
This could have all been avoided by simply keeping to the peace process.
IF an Interim Government was created (one of the initial plans), it could have prevented much of the current chaos.. and led to an orderly withdrawal, and to relative stability in Afghanistan
^ much of this proves the USA was the main figure keeping stability in nation - +1 y
So perhaps if this is what only Assange and Hale have revealed- do you not think that there are perhaps things that haven’t been revealed that are far more disturbing and shocking?
--- Once again, you ask a question that is quite irrelevant.
We are moving into conspiracy territory here.
Secondly, I know it’s not as simple as “Yes, we oppress you, you obey” but what I find ironic is you’re saying all this about China which is true, but isn’t that what you’re literally doing in this conversation?
---- What have I dont other than speak the truth of the situation.
You think the USA is “better” (note not perfect but better) that you have certain freedoms, that living in China or Iran would be worse- but have you actually lived in China or Iran? I’m not necessarily defending these nations by the way, but I’m simply saying how do you know living in China or Iran is worse than living in the US? Do you know from experience or have you just heard that from secondary sources.
--- Oh so you are saying China and Iran are better to live in? Before you ask such questions, maybe give your actual views.
- +1 y
I mean because I’ve spoken to CCP supporters who argue similarly to you tbh. Like for example, you seem to downplay Western war crimes because you’ll say to a lot of my examples “that’s one specific case” but the funny thing is CCP supporters will often tell you the same thing about the Uighurs. That Xinxiang is just one city and that China has 12 Muslim provinces and allows Muslims to open businesses for example. That’s all well and good that for the other Muslim provinces they’re not facing persecution but it still doesn’t change the fact that the Uighurs are even if XinXiang is one city and that the Uighurs are one group of Muslims.
--- Not at all, considering the Ugyhers deal with issues none of the minority groups in the West suffer under. Its not comparable
The "What If" questions mean very little.
Equally for Iran someone could easily argue for the case of hijab for example, well at least in Iran you could leave your house in the hijab without worrying that you may get assaulted for simply wearing the hijab- and that is true, and that’s a plus- but I wouldn’t have the choice to take it off, either and I’d most likely face a penalty if I did- and then the pro-Iranian government person could just respond with: “Well Iran isn’t perfect but at least you can wear the hijab without fear of getting attacked for it here”
---- Or you could go live in China, and suffer from actual persecution - +1 y
Your last tirade is just a bunch of "What Ifs"
They mean next to nothing.
You expect to discuss "negatives" or possible issues that are nonexistent.. on the assumption they might exist
and then give you random claims of "well I can wear my hijab in Iran.. but then can't take it off"
which contradict themselves...
Then mention "CCP supporters talk the way you do" proving my point
when in reality the West isn't anywhere near as bad
You live here
You know it
that entire reply from you was just pointless
You know very well if it was SOOOOO bad for you in the UK
youd find a way to live.. and go live in Iran.. or Saudi Arabia.. or Pakistan.. or China.. ETC
You don't because you recognize you have MORE freedom there.. even as a Muslim. - +1 y
Okay here’s what I suggest should happen:
Yes, the USA should withdraw because this is simply a war they cannot win. They have been there for the past 20 years and achieved pretty much nothing- not to mention the atrocities committed by the US.
Foreign occupation has not really been of any benefit to the Afghani people either. Between now and 20 years ago the development of Afghanistan hasn’t really changed for your average Afghani person.
That being said that doesn’t automatically equate to the Taliban being correct though, their regime in the 90s was clearly impractical, insufferable and they committed atrocities upon many innocent people.
As for the solution, I really don’t know. But the answer is not foreign occupation unless they do what they claim to come to do, develop Afghanistan and provide better security- I mean under the occupation crime still sky-rocketed, the occupation only brought benefit for few, certainly not your average Afghani.
The reality is, that both foreign occupation and the Taliban are terrible solutions and I support neither. - +1 y
As for it being "Winnable"
I think the issue is the USA never defined what "Winning" was
It is clear the war was "Won" in 2001 early on.
The main objective then was dismantling and getting Bin Laden, which was achieved by 2011.
None the less, the "Nation Building" process was folly no doubt
and much of that due to the nation itself... various ethnic groups. . and warlords taking advantage of the situation... tons of corruption
and YES obvious contractors wanting to make money...
Militarily it meant very little
The Taliban were defeated in nearly every engagement.
but USA forces could not stay forever (hence the creation of the ANDSF)
but as USA were slowly withdrawing... the Taliban were able to simply make up the vacuum and gain more strength... largely due to the ineptness of the ANDSF (which once again was influenced by the corruption).
However, you then get the point that the USA withdrawing in the way that it did was careless
the USA should have stayed until a peaceful settlement could be reached.. be it an interim government... or power sharing. WHATEVER..
In that way, a structure could be in place..
Would the aftermath be great? I am not sure
But it would not be the chaos and humanitarian crisis we see today. - +1 y
No, I’m not saying China or Iran is better to live in. From what I am used to, the UK is most likely the best country for me to live in given it’s the country I’m born in and grew up in. That’s for me personally. For you it’s the US, most likely. Where is the best place or better place to live is subjective to the individual.
And to be honest, I don’t think I would face persecution in China given I know of a couple of Pakistani Muslim girls living in China- they’re not facing persecution. So it’s not really as simple as because I’m a Muslim China would persecute me, though they do persecute other Muslims.
As for my hijab claim about Iran, that’s not random. I could anywhere freely wear my hijab in Iran, a freedom I would not have in France for example- but then in Iran if I wanted to remove my hijab permanently- I couldn’t as it is enforced by law, that’s a freedom that I don’t have in Iran that I would in France.
And how is my CCP point “proving” your point? If a Chinese person was defending the CCP the way you defend the US government you’d be calling them brainwashed.
And for the record, the UK is pretty good for me- I can practice my religion freely and that’s what matters the most to me. Let’s say the UK was like France and it restricted me from wearing religious clothing, eating halal meat, and generally restricted my religious freedom- if the UK was that bad, I still wouldn’t be able to move out of here, for several reasons.
That being said, I never said the UK was bad, but other countries aren’t the complete hell holes you make them out to be either. I’ve had family who have lived in Pakistan, family who returned to Pakistan, I know of people living in China who actually appear not be suffering or being persecuted, I know of a man who have lived in Saudi and enjoyed it too and this was someone who is a white American by the way, what is the “better” place to live really depends upon the individual. - +1 y
Thank you for proving my point. :)
- +1 y
Except how did I when you literally told me I’d be persecuted in China and gave you examples of girls who are similar to me- who are not being persecuted?
Also, the white American who actually preferred and plans to move back to Saudi or another Muslim country someday?
If the UK became like France for example someday, I would move providing I had the means to- that means if I had the finances- right now, even if I wanted to move I couldn’t, because of the issue of finances.
But I know of many Muslim women who are planning to move out of France for example to a Muslim country because France is simply taking their religious freedom away and they’re restricted from going to school, going to work etc if they practice basically.
- +1 y
Because ultimately you just proved my point that you are perfectly settled where you are :)
Thank You.
All the other things you bring up are completely pointless
You prefer the UK, good! :)
Thank you for proving my point. - +1 y
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Tell em queen spiderman lol they are in denial and its sarcastic
- +1 y
Lol I was never arguing that I wasn’t settled here- so I don’t know why you’re acting like you just proved something, when nothing needed to be proved😂😂
Please quote where I tried to tell you I wasn’t settled and wanted to get out so desperately because it was just so bad and awful here?
You know just because you say the other things I bring up are pointless, doesn’t mean they are.
Because if you want to get perspective on is it better living in the UK or elsewhere- I’m really not the best person to ask, given I haven’t lived anywhere else- it’s like asking someone if they prefer Fanta or Pepsi when the only soft drink they’ve ever had is Fanta- of course they’re going to say Fanta because they’ve never tried Pepsi.
My late grandfather for example, lived in both the UK and Pakistan, he preferred Pakistan overall but came to the UK as it provided better work opportunities but in the end- he went back to Pakistan.
A Somali girl called Shurki Abdi said that she preferred Somalia because people were mean here, in the UK and she got killed by the way.
The other things I bring up are not pointless because they are experiences from people who have lived in more than just one country😂👏🏾 - +1 y
Well, then all things must be equal
Iran, USA, UK
All equal countries.. and equal kindness and brutality.
No such thing as betters
The End
- +1 y
@Ryfyle
^ This is what I mean by Ignorance friend
@SpiderManFan2002 literally proves all of my points
and debunks herself several times
still doesn't realize it. - +1 y
And how do you come to that conclusion lol- I never said there are no such things as “betters” nor did I say they were all “equal” the reality is that living in any one of these nations is an experience subjective to who you are.
An atheist for example will have a much easier time living in France than a Muslim for example. A Shia Muslim will have a much easier time living in Iran than an atheist.
“Better” is not objective, it’s subjective based off of what demographic you fall under. - +1 y
Nice! wow amazing.
- +1 y
I can promise you not being a naturally born American myself
You are an idiot :)
and completely delusional. - +1 y
@HanSwoloRevenge You know just because you keep repeating that, doesn’t make it true- I’m not “debunking myself” you’re hearing what you want to hear and creating arguments that don’t exist as opposed to hearing what I actually say, and talking about it- but sure, if the “I won” attitude makes you feel better then knock yourself out dude😂
- +1 y
Enjoy that ignorance that its benefited to you from your upbringing and the part of the world you lived in
SOME of us did not have it
I sure as hell didn't throughout most of my life
and I was lucky
For I have seen what its like to live in other countries
Sometimes you Westerners amaze me with your ignorance of how easy you have it.. and how WELL you have it.
even the various minority communities not recognizing they have it far easier than their others throughout the world
Enjoy that that...
Honestly you disgust me with that reply
for I grew up in outside of the USA
and people like you make me sick
its disgusting. - +1 y
@HanSwoloRevenge
And I can promise you getting an opinion on where is better to live from a person who has only lived in one country- you’re not the sharpest tool in the box either☺️And consumed by Western propaganda🥰 - +1 y
@HanSwoloRevenge yes when u stop beig American/dumb ull understand every struggling country is struggling because of western colonization then ull stop being a fucktard
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@SpiderManFan2002
I wasn't born in the USA
I lived most of my life outside of the West.
Thank You :) - +1 y
@MessikaOfra I wasn't born in the USA
thank you - +1 y
@HanSwoloRevenge What? I disgust you, because I simply stated facts that not everybody wants to live in the West? It’s disgusting that my grandfather returned to Pakistan after spending years and years in the West? It’s disgusting that many French Muslim women would prefer to move to Muslim countries because they have the freedom to practice their religion there? Because I simply said experience on what is better is simply subjective to an individual as opposed to an objective reality?
It doesn’t matter if you weren’t born in or spent most of your life outside of the USA, you’re still clearly consumed by Western propaganda lol if you’re disgusted by the fact that the West isn’t the best for everybody such as @MessikaOfra and many others. - +1 y
@SpiderManFan2002
Well then perhaps you should move to Pakistan
and I will move back to my country of origin as well
That would be better
Stop talking to me
You are disgusting. - +1 y
@SpiderManFan2002
Move outside of the UK
You will see the reality
You have proven how stupid you are...
You talk down the region you don't even want to move out of
MOVE OUT
Go to Pakistan
PLEASE :)
If its so much better
GO
LEAVE - +1 y
LEAVE THE WEST PLEASE!!
YOU DONT LIKE IT
LEAVEEEEEEEEE
:) - +1 y
I am seriously done talking with you
I don't think you realize how much you just offended me
I came from a war torn region
I saw my family die in front of me..
I witnessed pain and sorrow from a brutal regime that routinely killed.. murdered.. plundered...
raped my sister in front of me
I was lucky to flee, while the rest of my family died
and you sit on your computer.. as some warrior
pretending you know anything about the world
a young 18 year old girl... who has the audacity to speak out against the freedoms she has
while she stays nice and safe
How pathetic of you. - +1 y
@HanSwoloRevenge Ok and? why are u acting like the American troops didn’t rape women? Vietnam war and history repeats itself i am so sorry for all war rape victims but u are literally defending the perpetrators themselves like🤢
- +1 y
@MessikaOfra
North Vietnamese raped women, and committed significantly more war crimes
The Insurgents in Iraq/Afghanistan committed significantly more war crimes... rape.. plunder.. and used it as a tactic according to things like UNAMA
Get over yourself.
You have no idea how easy people have it in the west.
I have lived in 5 different countries in my life
the USA is BY FAR the best, and easiest to live in.
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@HanSwoloRevenge I’m disgusting because I simply state that the West isn’t the best place for everybody? You’re entirely missing my point lol and I can’t tell if you’re genuinely so consumed by propaganda or if you’re doing it on purpose.
If the West is the best place for you that’s okay, but don’t try and impose that perception upon everyone because it’s not the case for everyone. Certainly wasn’t the case for Shukri Abdi, for example.
And how am I talking down about the UK by simply stating that this isn’t the best place for everybody? For somebody who is born and raised in the UK and has never been anywhere else, of course this would be the best place- logic would suggest so, given they wouldn’t know anywhere else. But different people have different experiences so that may not be the case for everyone. Some people born here might just dislike it here, I had a teacher that was born here but she moved the Qatar. I also know a girl from Qatar that went to the USA and she didn’t like it at all. The US may be the best country for you, but it wasn’t for her. If you’re getting butthurt at that fact? Then you seriously need to grow up.
Stating that the West is not the better place for everybody- does not mean I dislike the West, it simply means I am willing to accept the reality the West isn’t everybody’s ideal world.
And I am sorry that happened to your family, and I’m glad you found refuge in the USA- but the reality is, not every country outside the West is a brutal regime- I’m not speaking out against any freedoms I have, and now you’re further proving my point of “best” is subjective to the individual.
Let’s look at the Shukri Abdi case for example, it was reported that she said that she didn’t like it in the UK because of the abuse she was facing from her classmates- and she got pushed into a lake - bear in mind she had a fear of water - and she drowned. She came here for safety and a better life, yet she was murdered - +1 y
Then please leave if the nation of the UK is such a threat to muslims
if its terrible for you
Then Go :)
you are only making yourself look like an idiot
but consistently PROVING my point.
bringing up random examples of clear prejudice means nothing to the OVERALL freedom people enjoy in the West.
You dont get this.
- +1 y
She preferred living in Somalia compared to what she faced with having moved to the UK- and she was killed- are you going to call her mother disgusting if she tells you she would have preferred to stay in Somalia? Are you going to call Shukri Abdi disgusting for saying she preferred Somalia to the UK?
- +1 y
@MessikaOfra every country has raped and pillaged you are defeniitley ignorant if you think that was an American war problem you ever heard of the Romans, Vikings, Japanese in the early 1900's and and the Moor's, and more conquering nations all raped and pillaged because its war its not pretty and its not just a US problem i know that hard for your brain to understand because you lack history & much more and your anger is US, US, US lol but somehow think WAR IS NICE and peaceful lolol shut up already
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No.
Not what I am saying
You don't understand it at all. - +1 y
You are not paying attention to what I am saying
and you bring up pointless issues that have really no relevance to what I am trying to tell you.
YES, there are people who are persecuted in the West
is it to the degree of those in other parts of the world? NO... on a individual BASIS there are cases of terrible atrocities in the USA.. that IS TRUE
However, in the modern era, we don't see any major government (or major populace) movement like you do in other parts of the world
THAT is simply a fact.
You are bringing up some very poor arguments
They debunk themselves, because you are using some very circumstantial examples
that could be applied in almost any way
OKAY! You know a Muslim who hates the USA, and wants to move out GREAT!
I know a Muslim who LOVES the USA, and wants to say! .. GREAT...
HEY! I know this White guy who HATES the USA, and wants to move to CHINA
COOOOL
It means nothing on the large scale.
INDIVIDUALS will be different
and have different needs and desires.. etc
What I am speaking about is the BIG picture
You just don't seem to grasp that AT ALL.
You don't grasp that the West is far more free... far more progressive... far more open
- +1 y
Except I never said the nation of the UK was terrible or a threat to Muslims. I never said it was terrible for me, but it was clearly terrible for Shukri.
And how can you on one hand tell me what happened in your life then based off your experience and your example tell me, that the US is the best country to live in- then simply dismiss Shukri’s case like it’s nothing?
Shukri’s example of was not just a case of prejudice, she was killed- she preferred her country of origin to the West.
I understand what you’re saying. In your view, the West gives your ideal image of freedom, you see this as the best way of life- understandable with all you have been through.
That being said, there are different people who have experienced different things- that results in the West not being the best place for them, like with Shukri Abdi for example.
That’s all I’m saying, yet you’re taking this in all different kinds of directions. - +1 y
Lets compare for example
Lets say, there is a Lesbian, who lives in the Western world
She was attacked by a group of Homophobes, and they beat her to death
This is PROOF that the West is Homophobic, and isn't much different from the rest of the world (or at least no better)
Then I know a Gay person from Iran, and they were not attacked for being gay..
This must mean Iran is GAY friendly
We know both of those are BS
and that those individual cases do not represent the overall publics (or governments) view of the issue.
YES, in the case of the Lesbian, she was attacked in the WEST. . and clearly by Homophobes
This doesn't mean the NATION is
Nor does the Gay person not being attacked in Iran, mean that Iran is now somehow a "goood play" for Gay people...
We know the West has far far far more rights for Gay people
and we know that Iran has very strict rules against Gays
You are speaking from a very individual basis
and the reality is even in any given nation there are different cultural attitudes. - +1 y
My attempt is to speak to you from the BIG picture
YES the West is far more gay friendly, and treats minorities more fairly than the rest of the world.
as I stated, NOT perfect..
but far far better.
individual cases of attacks against minorities.. or gay people
does not equate some mass hatred
HOWEVER.. major public or government legislation DOES. - +1 y
This is why Westerners annoy me.
They struggle telling the difference
Lets take for example Iran.
Brutal regime, routine executions, heavy censorship, heavy government involvement in all aspects of life, anti-progressive.. ETC ETC.. the list goes on
If an Iranian in America wants to return to Iran for whatever reason (lets say racist neighbors).
We don't then assume Iran is some "better" place to live because of that.
these cases are very far and few..
VERY FEW move back to their original countries... and its often for reasons not related to "I didn't like the West".. but often out of expectation (for example, law enforcement, or problems that force them back.. such as family deaths).
YES, some do desire to move back due to attacks.. or issues like that (or at least move to different nations.. often within the West)
You pick random cases
cases that are NOT common place.. and not really a good representation of what is happening
It would be like me picking out a case of a White man being attacked and brutally murdered by a gang of Muslims.. in downtown Chicago.. and saying "Well, thats just how Muslims are"
We both know thats BS
But we also both know there are people in the West who think that.
How you are handling this topic is simply NOT realistic.
and it creates the type of argument that says
"Every place sucks, or Every place is perfect"
Because the FACT IS.. we can find cases like this for ANYTHING
but they are not the rule... but often the exception to the rule. - +1 y
Ya, I am just done
You don't grasp a lot of common sense things
and you constantly contradict yourself
or ask questions that contradict previous positions you held
and you consistently change your perspectives over and over again
Or attempt to put words into my mouth
You are mostly here just to bash the West, because you are free to do so
but you lack the intelligence to recognize how clueless you are on most of these topics
and at the same time you have no interest in leaving..
Its really just sad listening to you...
You are so foolish
Goodbye. - +1 y
@HansSwoloRevenge
Individual attacks against minorities can equate to mass hatred if they happen continually. Legislation can condemn such actions, but if the actions keep taking place- then legislation is clearly not enough.
For example police violence against African Americans in the USA is not supported by legislation- yet we continually see African Americans being disproportionately assaulted and killed by police and the police not be held accountable there’s many many cases proving so. It’s not confined by legislation yet it’s a mass problem.
In France, you do actually have legislation which affects Muslim women being able to practice their religion- so by your logic France, a Western country equates to mass hatred towards religious people specifically Muslims.
Then there’s the indigenous people- a minority that has been severely mistreated to this day.
There’s still a lot systemic problems in Western governments with how they treat certain minorities. Yes, the treatment of the LGBT community is better in the West than most places, yes there are instances in which minorities do get treated better in the West but there are also instances which minorities are treated absolutely disgustingly in, and it’s a result of a systemic issue not an individual one. - +1 y
Yes because Africans commit a disproportionate amount of crime in the USA
for example over half of murders..
Gang violence is far more common in black communities.. than in whites (or even latino)
on top of the consistent "anti police" attitudes.. that lead to more altercations
This all makes it far more dangerous
YES the majority of people killed and attack by police every year are WHITE
roughly 25/100 people killed by police are black
the majority of the rest are White
Use your head some.
and actually try researching once in a while. - +1 y
@HanSwoloRevenge lmao cuz of systemic racism abd conditions government puts them no one is born a criminal because of their skin tone its ur system idiots
- +1 y
And why do African Americans commit a disproportionate amount of crime? Why do they commit over half the murders? They’ve been discriminated against systemically for decades- when a government discriminates against a group of people, whoever they may be- of course that community as a whole is going to have problems. How is it you can so apologetic for soldiers who have raped and killed yet you can’t even provide an understanding as to why such figures may exist within the African American community?
You know the double standards you present are astounding.
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@SpiderManFan2002 i am black and I WOULD NEVER WANNA LIVE in any middle eastern or African continent country EVER and. tons of. blacks join the Marines and Army in conbat jobs and police force their is a systemic issue in America with racism but that has nothing to do with the wrirdo extremist that exploit your religion and n9 black would never wanna leave the US to a shithole so nice try & i can also tell you fail history because you actually blacks are African in America their is no proof most slaves were even African your so anti white government but you still belive everything you read lolol you do what typical females do base your feelings and think feelings = fact when the hard world. is FACT = Fact.
- +1 y
@Fuentes That’s not the point I’m making here, the point isn’t that systemic problems of racism exist consequently you should move to the Middle East or Africa. The point is, this that there is a systemic problem of racism in the US and it goes far beyond a few individual cases of racism like the other dude suggested earlier- and where did I say that most slaves in the US were African?
You say “n9 (which I assume means ‘no’) black would never wanna leave the US to a shithole” and yeah you’re right nobody would want to leave the US for a shithole, and to prove that I know of a number of black Americans who would prefer to move elsewhere so I guess you’re right about that😂👏🏾 - +1 y
I literally know many black americans who moved out lol its hell for minorities its such a low country I don’t get it like how they oppress and kill minorities is beyond human comprehension
- +1 y
@MessikaOfra you live in Egypt another shithole your military coups your leaders and murders them if they dont like. nobody would never live there and thats a straight cold lie, i am black i grew up out here and i see nothing but mostly blacks so thats a damn lie you wish blacks would wanna live in a war torn shit hole & @SpiderManFan2002 you know i am right that's all you got is a mispell you know nothing about black Americans at all.
- +1 y
I’m not trying to get ‘a misspell’ on you, I was literally just clarifying if that’s what you meant.
And yes I do, and no you’re not right given you didn’t actually address anything else I said lol - +1 y
@SpiderManFan2002 you're such a 2k baby its bad your generation can't mix with mine y'all are like forever children no growth at all. Lol you hate facts & think your feelings matter more and yes you know nothing about blacks at all in the US & i bet it angers you to know that a Black American loves the US instead of islamic countries.
- +1 y
@Fuentes Lol says the one who’s been whining literally calling other countries “shitholes” because I’m simply criticizing the USA- but sure, I’m the one arguing with my feelings.
I couldn’t really care less if you love Islamic countries or not but whether you do or don’t it literally proves my point that the West is for some, but not others given I also know black Americans who would prefer to move to other countries- again, just because you say “you know nothing” doesn’t make it true😂 - +1 y
I'm talking about your original post.
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You are you ignore cold hard facts the Middle East and Asia were shit holes way before the US stepped in i gave you mutliple countries that have been fighting for decades before the US, Iraq vs Kuwait, Palestine vs Isreal, Iraq VS Iran, Syria self destruction, Lebanon Self Destruction. Jordan has Syria spilling into them infact Syria had over a mass of 100k plus dead and still growing but is that the US? Nope thay's the toilet bowl of the middle east. & every country that has adopted the islamic way of life (Afghanistan in Asia) can not thrive in todays world people want freedom. Not less rights the same way kings and queens dictatorships won't work.
and you are because your upset over the word shithole its the truth those countries will never function normally ever again they're all wastelands. Then you bring up rare stuff like rape in war like it's only the US doing it? Rape and pillaging has been done for years. Kosovo war their was rape done by Serbians and violent acts, The Moor's, the Romans, Japan when they annexed most of Asia in the early 1900's and enslaved the Koreans in 1910, The NVA, Iraq's were raping if they caught a female trucker during war & so were the Taliban and many more etc. It's wrong for everyone but it's war it's not pretty and the fact humans are killing eachother is already worse enough it's WAR. THE SAD FACT is if you go to war those are things you will see and violent acts why do you think most people suffer from mental problems once they're back? War isn't nice.
But your gonna respond ignorantly & ignore history which sets cold hard facts look for misspells, act like a child because 2k babies are forever children & spew more fictional rhetoric & blame the US because countries can't use religion as a way to run in country it doesn't work. Extremist think they can force religion on everyone & make the whole world muslim & that isn't possible and thats why those areas are toilet bowls. - +1 y
They’re only “shit holes” in your eyes right now because of Western invasion. Take Libya for example, arguably one of the best countries in Africa before the US invasion, Iraq, Afghanistan etc we’re thriving before the West invaded- you pin the blame on the “extremists” but where do their weapons come from? Who funded them? Who created them? Spoiler alert, it was Western forces.
You are so consumed by the Western narrative, it’s actually sad. - +1 y
In Libya for example before US invasion, yes it was a dictatorship- but that doesn’t necessarily mean that it was completely terrible to live under. For example: www.africanexponent.com/.../ten-reasons-libya-under-gaddafi-was-a-great-place-to-live-2746
Though it was a dictatorship, arguably this could have also been considered better, than many democratic nations. - +1 y
@SpiderManFan2002 Libya is another toilet bowl again i just told you before the US those countries have been fighting eachother and your still saying US, US, US! WEST, WEST, WEST so you ignore history by choice? Libya
has fallen not because of the US because dictatorships don't work you may say the people agreed but most did but when the internet has come out and they see people living free on the west they decide to no longer want to live that way and them it falls because democracy works.
Ur issue is the idea of of "freedom" it's like you don't like that America introduced democratic governments and how Communism & Kings & Queens and Islamic Law does not work anymore but you hate that America is the reason it failed and fell because of how this country is ran you hate that people can be who they truly wanna be & you hate that people have choices in religion. The US may have funded these cells but these cells have chosen to do do bad things in the name. of religion and have made the middle east and most counties who have adopted Islamic Law to fail. Look at Iran people protest for rights and freedom because they see how the west lives and the tactics Iran uses are no longer normal & they have been fighting eachother for awhile there, thats why North Korea blocks their people from the internet. You have to get over it it's life technology changes, science changes and the way of your life as you very well know it changes. The world is nothing but growth and you have to accept that Democracy works. - +1 y
Where did I say US citizens supported the invasion of Libya? There are ones who did and ones who didn’t- again, quit putting words into my mouth.
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@HanSwoloRevenge
Hi again,
I just wanted to apologize to you, given I was incredibly insensitive towards you. In all honesty, I didn’t know you were from a war torn country nor did I know your family were victims of such horrendous crimes. Truth be told I do have a lot of anger at the West, with good reason- but I should not have let that anger play a part in this discussion.
To be honest, I see this discussion as quite a waste of time, because we both were not really listening to each other and instead we assumed things about each other based on what we were saying that didn’t really help this conversation get anywhere.
At the end of the day, my point was the Western occupation did not benefit the Afghani people- given what should have been the main aim in this war was to create peace plus a safe and secure Afghanistan for the people of Afghanistan. This over the past 20 years, has not been achieved and Afghanis will tell you that the difference between Afghanistan now and the difference between Afghanistan then is practically non-existent for your average Afghani person. I completely disagree with your claim that the Western occupation has brought “more stability” to Afghanistan given the country has basically no security and high-levels of crime and kidnappings still occur so much so that parents wouldn’t even send their children to school, overseas Afghanis would not even risk going to Afghanistan in fear of being kidnapped. Whereas one could argue that in the 90s the Taliban regime provided better security for the Afghani people but at the cost of living under unbearable rules with no freedom whatsoever.
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Now my issue is that I’ve seen so many people focus on the Taliban, becoming so one-sided that the blame is being pinned solely on them, when yes they do have a large blame in this, but what people seem to be forgetting is that the West were the ones backing the insanely corrupt Afghan government, and that the West also committed disgusting war crimes against the Afghani people and the West intervention is also a colossal reason for the Afghani suffering today- and you say I learn about such war crimes from Western media, that is true- but it’s not *because* of the media it’s because of Assange and Hale who leaked such information. I believe had Hale and Assange not leaked such information we would not know about about such war crimes today because both really seem to be paying the price for leaking such information as opposed to being celebrated for exposing the truth. And then that leads to the question, if this was hidden- what else is being hidden if anything at all? We don’t know. But it really would not surprise if more is being hidden.
As for living in the West being ‘better.’ Again it comes down to the individual and what is most important to them. For example if your biggest priority is being in a safe and secure country, then yes, the countries in the West would seem like the best options. When Middle Easterners who move to the USA get asked “Why do you come to America if you complain about it so much? Why don’t you leave?” I’ve seen several respond with “Because we know America isn’t going to bomb America and therefore we are safe here” or something along those lines. And there are different things that different people value- for example in France and the US I see many Muslims planning to leave and move to a Muslim country simply because it’s easier to practice Islam in a Muslim country, than it is in France or the US. Clearly for those people being able to practice their religion is the main priority. - +1 y
And I’m not saying I hate the West by saying this, I’m simply saying while there are many perks and privileges to living in the West, for a lot of people there are also downsides and as a result of those downsides they’d prefer to live outside of the West. I’m not saying *I* want to leave right now- and moving out of the West is something I have also considered especially if the UK becomes like France in restricting religious freedom then I will move out of here no question, but it isn’t difficult for me to practice my religion in the UK right now- so I see no reason to move just yet, but if it becomes difficult in the future I will move if I can, or if (in terms of my career) I get a better opportunity in a non-Western country, I may leave. That’s where I stand with living in the West, it’s not that I completely despise it because like it or not, I grew up here so I will always feel a sense of attachment to the UK but that doesn’t mean I wouldn’t move anywhere else outside of the West if I had good reason.
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And yes countries such as China do have things about them which are better than the USA too, as well as it being vice versa. For example if we look at the homelessness rate in the USA and the homelessness rate in China- China has a far lesser homelessness rate despite having a much larger population. China brought 850 million people out of extreme poverty, that’s more people than the US population yet there are still many in the USA living in extreme poverty. Now that’s not to say that everything the CCP does is good, clearly their treatment of the Uyghurs for example is appalling, their restrictive laws on religious freedom, and the list goes on- but not everything the CCP does is bad either, just like you say about the USA, not everything is good but there are good things about the USA too, let’s be fair here.
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@SpiderManFan2002 you hate freedom and you're a huge hypocrite. You honestly think living in horrible situations is ok it's truly sad yet you sit & contradict everything you stand for with your extremist views by contineing to live in the west but hate the west but won't leave & things make you angry that doesn't even affect you, you were a baby & a child during the invasion living the good life in the west I don't know how many family generations you are British but you chose to be there and stay. Yet you hare freedom, you hate democracy but i bet you condemn others who fled shithole countries because lack of freedom and no rights as a women.
But here you're arguing & debating and using your feelings in the matter lol but you stay in the west as a true hypocrite because you love voicing your opinion imagine living under the Islamic law or communism as strong as NK's or a dictatorship. That voice i can tell you love using, that research you love doing & all that energy to think your fighting for what's right is all the window, Why? You may ask because in those countries that promote that lifestyle women don't have rights. You could be stoned, hung or even beat or shot but nobody will do anything. Wanna know what else they're stories of rape in countries that use islamic law & the some can't report it because then she is no longer pure & her own father coukd kill her even though it wasn't her fault. Yet you wanna actually live in tyranny like that & angry at democratic government that chose freedom to run a country & not religion. - +1 y
@Fuentes I’m sorry if I have offended you or if you’re upset by anything I said. I just want to ask you one thing- where did I say any of what you’re accusing me of? My views aren’t extreme, I’m just saying it how it is. The reality is, not everyone wants democracy imposed upon them through war and sanctions. Moreover, the West claims to go to war in these countries to bring about freedom for the people, end dictatorships, and impose a democratic government- but if that’s the case, then why are the people not thriving in their countries today, as they were before the war? As I said about Libya, Gaddaffi may have been a dictator but a dictatorship does not always equate to a oppressive nasty regime, just as democracy does not always equate to freedom and equality. Gaddaffi was actually a leader who had some very progressive ideas according to some sources- Education and Healthcare were free, now some Libyan citizens did claim that the quality of the healthcare was appalling- so it had issues but it’s better to have free healthcare that is accessible as opposed to having no healthcare at all, Libya also had legislation providing a $50,000 grant for newly weds, and he considered having a home to be a human right as opposed to a luxury and you’ll see that if you read his Green Book.
And as for living under Islamic law, when implemented properly given it is based on the Mercy of God- I’d argue that Islamic Law is actually incredibly just and not bad to live under, if we look at history in which Islamic Law was implemented correctly by the State. Nowadays, there is not a single country in the world that implements the Sharia correctly.
Democracy does not equate to morality, and if the government does wrong things then people have every right to be angry at the government whether it be democratic or not. - +1 y
@SpiderManFan2002 it's not offensive its how you think which you can think anyway you want the issue is democracy is the way of life, dictatorships are the old ways and they do not work and guess people revolt always to dictatorship it's built in the human. Think about every country who had a dictatorship and they were overthrown by their own people it doesn't work people ask for a change all the time. Islamic law is the same exception not everyone believes in god & the harsh punishments they serve and rules. You keep saying if its implemented right thats a daydream you have they're so many people who have escaped those type of countries and you have never even lived there and your basically just saying they're wrong for being abused as woman and leaving because you're selfish and believe muslim countries should be ran this way & that's what is extreme and that's your view but its extreme because nowhere in the world should people live in such harsh living conditions. But yet you won't move to countries like this to prove anyones point you just wanna talk about the fairy tale you have about the old days. The reason these countries don't thrive is because people are fighting eachother over religion and fighting over holy ground and corruption is at an all time high just look at Egypt they had to coup their own leader because they felt he was corrupt. The problem is you can't run a country with people who severely corrupt to the people because it will be poor and people will become angry & it can and will lead to a civil war. Just look at what the people did agaisnt Assad now Syria will never be the same but you will blame the west for proving democracy WORKS.
I also don't understand how you as a women who enjoys researching and talking thinks that no rights for women works, yet you keep typing and talking and learning and researching which is everything against the way those type of countries are ran. So why are you being a hypocrite? - +1 y
@Fuentes Any man-made system will have flaws, whether it be democracy or a dictatorship. Many dictatorships have failed because many dictators in the past have been unjust, and democratic societies aren’t exactly thriving right now either. Look at the Capitol Riots who wanted to overthrow the new presidency, the amount of protests we have against the decisions our democratic governments make- if democracy is the best system as you claim, then why is there so many people dissatisfied with the governments? There is so much problems we can talk about from marginalized communities, to poverty, to inaccessibility to healthcare and education- this idea of that we are “free” is false because as human beings we all by nature submit ourselves to something whether we know it or not- like, why do you wear the clothes you wear, eat what you eat, etc? You can say “it is my own choice” but it’s not entirely your own choice- because the society around you influences you to a certain extent.
And you talk about Islamic Law as if you know anything about it- tell me, can you even define Sharia Law- let alone understand the depths of it? You mention countries such as Egypt or Syria but neither of those countries implemented Islamic Law.
Islam gave women rights way before the West. We’re talking divorce rights, property rights- the first person to convert to Islam was a woman, one of the greatest people who fought for Islam in its early days was a woman, one of the best Islamic scholars was a woman, the first martyr of Islam was a woman- so please, I’d suggest you don’t judge Islam from the governments of Muslim majority countries but from understanding the Quran, the Hadiths, finding people who have studied Islam to learn from- preferably someone who is considered a trusted scholar, and if you do want to learn about Islam I can assist you in obtaining the correct resources. If you’re not even willing to learn however, I’d suggest you don’t comment on Islamic Law. - +1 y
As you know nothing about Islam and would not be willing to learn.
That said, why do I live in the West if I don’t believe democracy is the best system? Firstly, you cannot help where you are born- I didn’t move here, I was born here and I’m an 18-year-old who currently can’t afford to move, for financial reasons, all of my family that I know live in the UK, all my friends are here. Just because I don’t think democracy - or at least how it is currently being implemented - is the best way, does not mean I hate or despise democratic countries. Yes, I dislike it when they do bad things, just as I would with any other kind of country- who wouldn’t dislike that? But that doesn’t mean I hate the countries themselves or the people of those countries. Secondly a huge priority for me is being able to practice my religion. Currently in the UK I’m not restricted from practicing my religion and that’s one of the reasons why I love it here, but that’s not the case in every democratic country. If we look at France I would be extremely restricted when it comes to practicing my religion- so if the UK ever became like that, providing I could- I would leave.
The West does have a large blame in many of the Middle Eastern conflicts- as do the dictators who run those countries, those are just facts. And you are a prime example of what I am talking about- you can blame the dictators for their roles in the conflict, but not the West- you see the West as “proving democracy works” because if that is the case after Western invasion why are those countries not thriving?
It’s not hypocritical to live in the West and critique democracy. After all, if one great value of Western society is freedom of speech- then why is it such a problem that I critique the way the West is ran? It’s okay if I critique the systems of, dictatorships, Communist governments- but the second I critique democracy you seem to have a problem with that? - +1 y
There are pros and cons to systems of democracy, dictatorships, socialist governments, capitalist governments, communist governments- no one of them is perfect. By saying that it does not mean, I am against the West or anywhere for the matter- it simply means I am willing to accept that there are immense flaws as well as good things in man-made systems.
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@SpiderManFan2002 i told you it's your view and you can say what you want, did you not read that lol South Korea isa prime example of democracy so is Germany and the reason we pulled out of South Vietnam was because the leader Dim Sim or whatever was coup'd for corruption and the people hated him and they decided they wanted a communist government & Hoochi Mihn has kept Vietnam stable but they don't practice communism as hard as North Korea does. How come Saudia Arabia is apart of NATO? and is the RICHEST biggest and thriving middle east country with the nicest of everything. It's proven by fact and society dictators don't work.
The revolutionary war, many countries have had civil wars, Syria, Military Coup's & more, it doesn't work that's like saying the Nintendo 64 can compete with the newest tech of a ps5 and a xbox series x. Everything changes and the way of life you study and think is so great you have no idea how bad it is and you admit you were born in the west (do not accuse me of being racist, i just don't agree with a lot of religion a persons race has nothing to do with it) so you know nothing about thriving in a dictatorship i know some indians who told me they could be killed for not being pure, i know some persians/Iranians who escaped Iran and a girl told me they have to travel through jungles and showed us a movie that showed the true life of Iran. Women had no respect, they could not show their hijabs with hair, husbands were abusive and they could say nothing, people pulling out shotguns on women if they got out of line, stonings and more and that's still their everyday life and it's WRONG.
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@SpiderManFan2002 Another guy just told you how horrible he had it living under tyranny and how living in the west is a breath of fresh air and way easier. Yet you sit there with no background of living under those conditions trying to pull facts out of wherever you can find it to say no it's not like this and its not like that & it would work if it was rAn right? That's a slap in his face and every other survivor and the women i knows faces who came from that.
What makes you a hypocrite is you say you love the west for being able to practice your religion? So imagine wanting to be a christian and jewish or a buddist or a shaman in those countries and you can't practice any of that in peace? & you brought up France, France is a communist country filled with fascist behavior.
You as a women having no rights and being beaten up and you have no rights & birthing a daughter and knowing thats the life she expects as a women you would not take it and i know this by how you are fighting me on this right now so imagine having this fighting spirit and bring stoned for it as a women. - +1 y
@Fuentes Material wealth for a small group of people does not equate to a thriving state. You provide Saudi Arabia as an example, but Saudi Arabia is not even a democracy- it’s an absolute monarchy.
If you listen carefully to what I say, I’m not pro-dictatorship, I said there are pros and cons to dictatorship. Of course if you have an unjust leader, like Kim Jong Un for example who practically brainwashes his public to worship him, then of course that is a negative to dictatorship that if an unjust person rises to power, there will misuse their power. But if a just leader, who wants to take care of his people rises to power under a dictatorship- then that’s obviously a pro in that you will have a just leader who will have the people’s best interests at heart running the country. I didn’t say dictatorship was a good thing, I said that there are pros and cons to both.
And you bring up Iran as an example, great. I agree with you, forcing hijab upon women, not being able to speak against your husband if he is abusing you, and the overall lack of women’s rights in Iran is unjust. But what does that have to do with anything I just said? I hope you’re not avoiding my points about Islam, and using Muslim majority countries with unjust governments as a scapegoat.
And again, I’m re-reading what I said and I can’t see anywhere where I denied tyranny going on in any place in the world nor can I see where I denied that he found refuge in the West. Of course any victim of war who comes to the West will find safety here, as the West is safe and secure if we want to talk about stability. Again, critiquing democracy doesn’t necessarily mean I deny the West’s safety and highlighting the West’s flaws does not mean I am denying the safety either- safety meaning safe from war.
And as for your point about religious freedom in countries such as Iran (I assume that’s what you mean correct me if I am wrong) nowadays non-Muslims in Muslim majority countries do face discrimination *cont* - +1 y
Unfortunately. Some places will be worse than others, it’s not necessarily that in every Muslim country religious minorities are persecuted, however, in the 21st century that has been the case for a number of people in Muslim countries and that is wrong. But why are you talking as if I am defending these countries? I simply stated that different kinds of governments have their pros and cons- nowhere did I show support for any kind of government, giving credit and criticism where it is due is not support or opposition it’s simply giving credit and criticism where it is due.
And as for France being communist- France is not purely communist, socialist or capitalist- it is a mixed economy. And France is a democratic country, in which religious freedom is being restricted in the name of secularism.
Also I’m not fighting you right now, I’m simply discussing with you- there’s a difference. I’m strong in my opinions, but I’m not fighting you so I apologize because I’ve clearly given you the wrong impression.
And as a woman I’m not getting beaten up, Islam does not allow men to beat women. And Islamically, the status of a daughter is actually raised and it is an Islamic saying that the daughter opens the door of Jannah (Heaven) for her father. As a woman Islam gives me many rights, and it gave women many rights 1400 years ago. A prime example is divorce- Islam gave a woman the right to divorce 1400 years ago, whereas divorce for women was legalized in the UK 1857, and for women in the US divorce was legalized in 1937 (so that they could divorce on the same grounds as men) as I said and I mean no disrespect to you when I say this, but you clearly lack knowledge on Islam because what it seems you are doing (and please correct me if I am wrong about this) you are seeing unjust governments in Muslim majority countries and equating the policies, actions and injustices of those governments to Islam- when Muslims are not equal to Islam. *cont* - +1 y
Regardless of pro's and con's of dicatorship you agree dictators are an outdated way to run a country & you can't blame the west for that the same as a country being ran under one religion & that isn't true people still die in Iraq for not being Sunni or Shiaa if im spelling them correctly or just being a christian & i never said Saudi's were democratic i mentioned them being apart of NATO and how they're a thriving country in the middle east and a very nice place with tons of women.
The issue with you is you don't think the west should be Metaling and world policing many Americans feel the same way the US is not prefect but people beg the US for help and cry about their dictatorships or human rights. When Iraq attacked Kuwait and annexed them we came to help. For years Afghanistan has had issues Blame Bin Laden rather he was a rogue CIA agent or a terrorist leader or whatever it is people theorize about him today that does hold merit, the Taliban should have never housed him & gave him up instead they wanted war & people cried for us to rebuild so the US did that. Your argument is agaisnt the US and if you don't support tyranny then why are you attacking the west and the war that had happen? From 2001-2014 combat mission ended from 2014-2021 we rebuilt that country to be a thriving country they chose to surrender to the taliban who keeps growing due to extremist using religion as an excuse to kill. - +1 y
A Muslim is simply a person who believes in one God and the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as the final messenger of God and a Muslim should try to follow the religion of Islam to the best of their ability. Unfortunately, not all Muslims do attempt to follow Islam to the best of their ability, and we clearly see that with pretty much every government in Muslim majority countries.
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I agree that dictatorships are not the best way to run a country. That said, I also don’t agree with democratic nations going to countries that may be ran that way and attempting to force democracy upon the country and war mongering in those countries. Would you like it if say China came to the USA with its army, and tried to impose Communism upon the USA through war because China believe Communism is a better system? I doubt you’d like that, and I wouldn’t like that either.
Okay as for the Sunni and Shia thing- according to statistics Iraq is majority Shia, but there is also a sizeable Sunni minority in Iraq. Sunni extremists will often condemn Shias for being Shia and at worst attack them and kill them, likewise Shia extremists will often condemn and at worst attack and kill Sunnis for being Sunni. But this isn’t a thing that happens to every Sunni and Shia in Iraq. I had some Iraqi neighbours when I was younger who were Shia, the parents were Iraqi immigrants, the two eldest daughters were born in the Netherlands but raised in the UK, and the two younger siblings were both born and raised in the UK. They took regular trips to Iraq, and came back every time just fine- the last time I heard they went to Iraq was around 2016 I think, and they came back fine, they didn’t get killed for being Shia Muslims. Now unfortunately Christians probably do face persecution in Iraq for being Christian nowadays (from extremists) and nowadays it is estimated there are around 200,000-300,000 Christians in Iraq, before the US invasion of Iraq it was said that there was around 1.5 million Christians living in Iraq.
Secondly the war in Afghanistan was a war that the US could never win. Afghanistan is a land that is extremely difficult to conquer. The Afghan war was a war the cost approximately a quarter of a million lives and 2.26 trillion dollars. Nor the people of Afghanistan have benefited from this war, nor have the soldiers that were sent to fight, nor have you or I - +1 y
Who has benefited is the most wealthiest people in the world. Just one example is Dyncorp, a private military contractor, they profited immensely from this war- and Dyncorp employees were hiring child prostitutes in Afghanistan. This war was not for the sake of liberating the Afghani people, but for the sake of filling the pockets of extremely wealthy people. If there is no war, these companies such as Dyncorp will go out of business, that’s what it is about.
Not to mention what the Afghan war logs revealed was absolutely disgusting, yet clearly, so many people tend to forget that. I mean even today I found out that Kabul airport attack victims are claiming that as well as a suicide bombing that took place US soldiers directly shot at them- how can anyone justify this?
This notation that the poor people of these countries beg the US to help them, is not always as it seems. See, for arguments sake let’s say that’s true- well, *have* the US helped those countries? No they have not, if the US helped those countries successfully there would be no refugees left let alone 37 million- because if the US really helped these countries, the countries would return to peace and stability and the people of those countries would be able to continue living in those countries in safety and security. Instead millions of those people are turned into refugees and they remain in the West or other countries such as Pakistan or Turkey.
The problem is that in my opinion, the US seems to prolong war, instead of end it. - +1 y
@SpiderManFan2002 we obliterated the Taliban all they did was regrow and step up once we left. Yes i know more about Islam & muslims then you think i do i am a Malcolm X supporter but i make my own choices & would never be too religious.
Also if any commie came here the whole US would whomp down on them lol
Anyway i see your anger is with the US & how democracy was implemented but it works and most countries asked for our help as for war human rights are no longer being measured is that an excuse for the uneeded violence nope but again it's WAR.
So do you sin as a women living in a western country? Such as no longer being pure they say? - +1 y
If the US obliterated the Taliban- then how did they regrow? And they didn’t even “regrow” once the US left, they practically took over Kabul within three hours and chased the US out of their country- Biden was planning to withdraw from Afghanistan on September 11th, but the Taliban demanded they withdrew by August 31st and the US clearly gave in to the Taliban.
And again with the point about democracy, it works to a certain extent but it also has many flaws. For example, do lobbyists not appeal to politicians in order to get certain legislation passed? Can this not create corruption? This is just one of the flaws of democracy, but none the less it is a system that has positives too. But it’s not necessarily a system that everybody wants. And certain countries may or may not have asked for US intervention- but even if that is the goal of these wars, then they have clearly been a failure as under US occupation in many countries human rights have not been brought to the country and arguably it has been the US armies who has also played a role in further violating human rights in those countries by committing war crimes.
You may have little knowledge on Islam, I can tell you might know some things but by the question you ask me about sinning it shows your lack of knowledge on Islam- and again, I mean no disrespect when I say this because as an average non-Muslim American I don’t expect you to have a good understanding of Islam (from what I know about you) it’s not something to be ashamed of, it’s normal. And as I said if you ever decide that you want to learn more about Islam someday, I can assist you in doing so.
Now moving onto your question on sinning. Every Muslim sins, whether you’re in a Western country or not. The point of following Islam, is not that we should be perfect (from an Islamic perspective) and never sin, but that we should try not to sin and when we do sin (because it’s human nature to make mistakes) we should repent and ask God for forgiveness. - +1 y
And because God is the Most Merciful, if we are sincere in our repentance and intend to stop the sin- God will forgive us as long as we keep seeking forgiveness.
If your “no longer being pure” question refers to asking me if I am promiscuous or not- then no, I am not promiscuous. And I’d also like to add that modesty and not being promiscuous is also something that applies to Muslim men too, just as much as it does Muslim women. - +1 y
And it’s great that you support Malcolm X, me too, but supporting Malcolm X doesn’t necessarily make you knowledgeable or have a good understanding of the religion of Islam, sure it can give you some kind of understanding but not a large one.
It’s like I support Martin Luther King Jr, but just because I support MLK Jr does not mean I have a good or solid understanding of the religion of Christianity. Yes, I learn some things about it through MLK Jr, but that doesn’t mean I have a solid understanding of Christianity. In reality I do have a certain level of understanding of Christianity but it’s not really a deep understanding of Christianity. - +1 y
@SpiderManFan2002 i don't believe in whose pure and whose not i am just saying thats how other countries you deem were great without IS intervention see it, so once you lose your virginity before marriage they see it as a issue of being pure and you can't tell me that's not true i know many muslim women im just asking cause you say you don't wanna live in another country but you act as if without the US intervention the west has ruined it for you to ever experience such living and such countries but why would you even want to if you take part in what is considered sin activities so just imagine being blocked from that. Im also not denying Iraq and Afghanistan were beautiful countries before war.
But Sadam Hussain was attacking other countries such as Kuwait, and they had problems with Iran and still have Tension with them today. So let's say 9/11 didn't happen if it wasn't us it would have been another super power & would you hate them?, let's say in the 80's we never supported extremist cells and Russia would have been there for years fighting that's another world super power. Did you know what Japan did, They went to Korea and raped and pillaged and enslaved & annexed many Asian countries they did the same with Vietnam and parts of China. When France came to support China, they left their doors wide open for Germany to take over. Im not saying any thing anyone did is right but war is war you're talking humans taking humans lifes, stealing things from people and scraping the country for everything it has and more, rapes will happen, torture camps and torture and brain washing and many more savagery it's war you can't expect anyone whose invading to be decent they're solely their to kill and maybe give out supplies. War is War and that has been going on since cave men era.
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@SpiderManFan2002 Im not claiming i know all or im stepping foot into the muslim religion i respect all religion what im stating is how certain aspects are taken to serious in religon just how mormons view christianity and more? Their is corruption and twisted up words in every religion. I believe religion all ties to eachother in a way and somehow it got twisted depending one's experience with God and how they saw things & where they came from and how God chose to expose himself to them. I also don't feel God would allow such evil but it happens that's how you know nothing can be forced.
The US is not perfect and their is hella issues and i know a lot of corruption that happens here and systems in place that are still wrong today & things in this nation i don't agree with and how many people back on the day were whacked for speaking out and how the US has used the Black Americans as their personal lab rats in so many ways but i can't ever sit there and dwell on that because this country is slightly changing but it has changed so fast that in order to support yourself as equal now you need to support gays and more wrong things im just not into which has me hating SJW's But see that's just a first world issue.
One thing you can't deny is nothing has really worked and what was proven to work is DEMOCRACY in the USA look at how big it is economically worldwide and how much progress a country has made since 1776 when other countries have been around a lot longer and never got this far. Dwelling on the past will get you nowhere and i feel cause you're young you don't see it yet but one day you will see the bigger picture.
- Guru Age: 33 , mho 67%+1 y
Just keep withdrawing. It's too late to turn back now and it would just mean war if you did.
It was gonna be a shitshow no matter what. This never should have happened to begin with. The US should stop trying to be such a strange wanna-be global police force (with painfully obvious corporatocratic ties).00 Reply
What Girls & Guys Said
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Opinion
71Opinion
Right now America and every about it looks very weak and stupid around the world. A dumb pullout leaving not only Americans, Alleys and equipment likes guns, night vision and helicopters behind, but then turning around and try to get people out of there, so quicky that it will be a miracle if we don't bring back a lot of ISIS and Taliban cells here into the states.
And we as Americans should be very upset and fearful. We have an administration that is blaming their predecessor agreement to pullout, but don't take much blame for their actual execution of the plan. It almost sounds like they are saying, the last dumb president planned all of this, and we simply went with his plan, knowing he was dumb. So don't blame us for being "Adults." This is such an insult to every American citizen, and such a dishonor for all men and women who died and came back injured over there and still dying over the current administration's poorly executed pullout.
Now that Administration and their party is mad that some call for an impeachment, as though they went for two their self with the last president. They say, don't make this political!
Sadly, when all these terrorist start showing up blowing up Americans, on American soil will the consequences begin to even start to reflect that will take years for their fruit to be understood. And we beat hope all our real enemies use it as a way to really attack us. Most Americans assume we have such a great and powerful military. We take all of that for granted. I just hope this doesn't lead to a war we have never seen or ever experienced.10 Reply- Xper 6 Age: 59 , mho 67%+1 y
Your first question should be why did the Pentagon evacuate a multi billion dollar secure air base months before they knew trouble was on the way. They also left behind billions of dollars of arms and equipment that the Taliban gladly took over.
That question in itself describes the total failure of our Military leaders who are lead by the Commander in Chief. Had they held on to that air base they would have had a much stronger defensive position to deal with the problem of getting people out in a safe and orderly manner.
Then instead of issuing dire warnings, they should have started a forced evacuation back in the spring. This whole mess is goes beyond embarrassing, many people are going to be murdered and tortured by the Taliban, and all that blood lies at the feet of the Commander in Chief.
At this point nothing short of all out warfare with the Taliban is the only alternative to we have to walking away. Sadly, many people are going to lose their lives because of the incompetence of our leaders in Washington.00 Reply - Xper 4 Age: 34+1 y
Here's the answer, but Americans will deny this and believe they have a God-given right to invade other lands and pay mercenaries (ie: extremist groups) ISIS, Al-Qaeda, Zionist groups, White supremacy groups, etc. Mercenaries don't have any real allegiance to a country or religion, they kill and hurt others for money and money alone. Even American politicians have admitted doing this, it's not hidden. But Americans are ignorant, they allowed their arrogance to take over common sense because they sold their soul and disregarded human rights or even God's morals. To anyone who reads this and dislikes my comment or the guy dropping a 100 in this video clip below will indicate to me, individuals continue to be manipulated by the bias news reports and whatever they read on social media.
https://www.youtube.com/embed/yddqvuFDxvA
Instead of listening to White people who are pro-capitalist politicians living a fancy life with a colonial mindset of what to do in Iraq or Afghanistan or Syria and others, why not talking to those people who live in those lands and want American troops to leave. When Empires are in power it is all about White-washing and implementing those values via force and America has done this time and time again, people should read what America did in the 1970s of pushing neoliberalism in Chile after Chile's democratic victory. America deployed troops and mercenaries to fight in that country as well. If people still want to dislike my post to those I say, they are nothing but a stooge in life.01 Reply- +1 y
To the poster, your title even shows that you don't seem care much about how many Afghani or Iraqi's alone have died at the hands of America's military and private companies. Take Blackwater, a private military group by Erik Prince who's also related to Betsy Devos, those Blackwater guys who killed innocent Iraqi's had a reduced sentence. Soooo imagine if foreign invaders went into America, killed Americans, and through that foreign government system those men who killed innocent Americans had a reduced sentence, how would Americans feel then? Pissed, correct? But that's the thing, people lack empathy and now colonialism has been engrained and normalized in the hearts of many. Therefore, if any one of you thinks this way and goes through a bad break up or bad divorce, I won't have sympathy.
- Explorer Age: 35 , mho 44%+1 y
There should never have been any involvement by the west in my opinion. Seems to me that given the situation now all those British and American lives have just been traded for nothing. I actually feel despair for their families. But like all west involvement there was likely an ulterior motive and soldiers were used as pawns on both sides
40 Reply - Guru Age: 54+1 y
Just another day in paradise, without the 🍔's, of course 👉🖕👳♂️🖖👳♀️🤘👳🙌 👈Hail, Jimmy Buffett, kill Ayatollah suck it 💩🎸
In today's news, bombings, rape, massacre's, distorted religious dogma the only doctrine available. Religious leaders who accused Alla of being a loving God, ventilated with a power drill to the Head for Thier sacrilege; thank you our savior's, Black & Decker cordless power drills, and kill the Western devils that manufacture them.
Burn, baby burn🔥 What will the "alledged" axis of evil do without American Capitalist Devil's too blame thier own stupidity on🖕 00 Reply - Xper 6 Age: 51+1 y
I personally don't think that third world cesspool of a country is worth saving. It's not worth the life of a single American soldier. As soon as the U. S. is completely out I have no doubt they will resume killing each other.
However the way this withdraw of our personal and military is absurd.
They should have quietly evacuated all the civilians and the weapons technology before announcing the withdraw.
You don't need to be a politician or a graduate of West Point to figure that out.00 Reply - Xper 6 Age: 32 , mho 64%+1 y
Pulling out was good. Pulling out the way they did. Not good. Didn’t have a plan to pull out. Was just some impulsive thing like ok bye bye. No warning was given. People that needed to evacuate could have evacuated had sufficient warning been given for example.
50 Reply - Xper 6 Age: 32 , mho 39%+1 y
It was always a shitshow, right from the very beginning. Twenty years, wasted billions and countless lives lost, and for what? A Taliban victory.
Maybe the US should have sent those blue-haired social justice warriors, because they seem to have plenty of them and no one would ever miss them.421 Reply- +1 y
Well, I think there were a few clear issues.
1. The United States military hadn't been heavily involved in the war for 7+ years.
The peak of USA involvement was in 2010 (100,000 manpower), which decreased to 16,000 by 2014.. and fewer than 8,000 throughout much of the past 7 years... to 2,000 just a year ago.
The more the USA removed its involvement, we saw the Taliban gain strength
2. The Afghan Government was inept and corrupt.
Its military rarely the resources it needed
^ for example, salaries were often pocketed by Afghan officials that were meant to go to Afghan soldiers.
Or various outposts were poorly manned and armed..
or the famous "Ghost Soldiers" issue (where commanders would claim having far more men than they had... just to pocket more soldiers).
This meant the Afghan military was hollowed out
especially when the USA military left (which provided logistics, training, materials.. etc)
THIS corruption was rampant in the Government itself... Ghani in particular was a poor leader.. this lead to many showdowns with the USA government (even Karzai was a struggle)..
For example, the 2018 election between Ghani and Abdullah was contested.. this led to the USA to threaten withholding funding if the issue could not be resolved. - +1 y
Furthermore, the Taliban Victory was simply impossible with any sort of USA military involvement.
The Taliban themselves clearly used the Summer Offensive to test USA responses (which were next to nothing)
Its why Biden's announcement of an unconditional withdrawal led to the Offensives.
So, it really was an unnecessary decision by Biden
the USA military could have had 2,000 soldiers in Afghanistan, and prevented its collapse.
It simply didn't matter to him I think
and clearly Biden is suffering the repercussions for that decision
its the first time I've seen Fox News and CNN agree on something
and Public Opinion of Biden is dropping rapidly.
especially in regards to his handling of the Afghan crisis.
WHICh ultimately he helped instigate.. through removing any sort of USA involvement. - +1 y
@HanSwoloRevenge Here are a few more "clear issues":
1) Your own government is corrupt and inept, and no, by this I do not mean only since Biden became the president. You've had corrupt and incompetent governments for decades now, for at least as long as I can remember.
2) As I understand it, you people had the chance to actually catch Osama bin Laden early on, in 2001, but the special forces unit that spotted him were given orders to not apprehend, and allowed him to escape. www.theguardian.com/.../afghanistan.september11
3) Your nation has no right whatsoever to try to "spread democracy", or "nation-build" which, as we all know by now, are merely euphemisms for the plunder and exploitation of nations that have resources the US wants. - +1 y
Well for one you make a lot of assumptions of my positions
When did I ever claim the the USA was not corrupt, or that ineptness has not existed prior to Biden?
Or when did I ever claim we were "spreading democracy"
- +1 y
Secondly
Perhaps you shouldn't post articles that debunk your claims
"Several high-profile military operations to capture them - most notably last December in the Tora Bora mountains - failed because Britain and the US sent in too few troops of their own. Instead, the US commander in Afghanistan, General Tommy Franks, relied too heavily on local anti-Taliban warlords who were more interested in making money than in hunting enemies of the US." - +1 y
I will say thats cute though, coming from someone who apparently lives within the Russian Federation.
Perhaps practice what you preach? - +1 y
@HanSwoloRevenge No, I just listed a few more "clear issues" for you. I wasn't assuming anything. Also, it seems that you didn't really read the article, or at least not the part where it says in the very first paragraph that:
"Osama bin Laden and most of his top-ranking Arab associates were able to escape from Afghanistan last year because of a series of avoidable strategic blunders by US military commanders, well-placed sources in Kabul have told the Guardian. Of the 3,000-4,000 "foreign militants" trapped in Afghanistan last November after the collapse of the Taliban, most got away." - +1 y
Lets look at your claim
"2) As I understand it, you people had the chance to actually catch Osama bin Laden early on, in 2001, but the special forces unit that spotted him were given orders to not apprehend, and allowed him to escape"
AND
also lets recognize
your copy/pasted the opening paragraph of the article
the SECOND paragraph was what I posted to you
Next time, maybe read past the opening line?
- +1 y
Note the words "avoidable" and "strategic blunders".
- +1 y
note the words in your post "special forces" and "spotted him" and "were given orders to not apprehend, and allowed him to escape"
OH and in the ARTICLE you gave me
NOTICE the WORDS
" failed because Britain and the US sent in too few troops of their own"
and
"relied too heavily on local anti-Taliban warlords who were more interested in making money than in hunting enemies of the US."
You already contradicted yourself
and its just the beginning of our conversation :) - +1 y
@HanSwoloRevenge Yes, I KNOW that was the second paragraph you copied and pasted, but you apparently seem to have missed the reasons why O. bin Laden managed to slip through their fingers, one of the reasons listed being because, as it clearly states, "Britain and the US sent in too few troops of their own".
Here is what it says further down:
"US special forces coordinating the Tora Bora assault, where al-Qaida fighters had been sheltering in caves, closed a northern escape route, but fatefully left a snowy track to the south open. "The US operation was like a Swiss cheese with too many big holes," another source in the new Afghan administration said." - +1 y
Please show me where in this article it says
the Special Forces unit that spotted Bin Laden... were told to NOT apprehend him.. and to ALLOW him to escape? - +1 y
@HanSwoloRevenge "They had plenty of time, they had the people, they had the information - this was not a matter of miscommunication. This was a matter of general officers deciding not to do it because they didn't think it was their mission."
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-14190032
A different article from a different source, but it backs up what I said before. - +1 y
@HanSwoloRevenge It's under the subsection headed "Military Incompetence".
- +1 y
Yes. But once again, this doesn't prove your point at all.
Nowhere does it say Special Forces saw Bin Laden
and were told not to apprehend him. . and were told to allow him to escape
You continue to misread issues.
putting in your own views instead of what is said in the text. - +1 y
Accept your fault and move on.
- +1 y
Furthermore
"The commander of the CIA Afghan operation, Hank Crumpton, spoke to the top military commander who said it would take weeks to get troops in.
"Tora Bora was just a case of military incompetence," argues Richard Clarke, at the time, a White House counter-terrorism adviser.
"They had plenty of time, they had the people, they had the information - this was not a matter of miscommunication. This was a matter of general officers deciding not to do it because they didn't think it was their mission.""
You continue to misread these articles purposely to push a point you are knowingly wrong about. - +1 y
You just consistently misread these articles?
It clearly shows the USA didn't have the manpower, and had little interest in putting many boots on the ground (That was the incompetence).
And that the Afghan Allies were incompetent, and were not interested in following orders.
This is not
"Special forces see Bin Laden, and they are told not to apprehend him and allow him to escape"
Accept your fault
MOVE ON :) - +1 y
@HanSwoloRevenge "Nowhere does it say Special Forces saw Bin Laden
and were told not to apprehend him. . and were told to allow him to escape"
Don't you know how to read between the lines? Do you only ever accept things literally? The fact remains that they had the chance to stop him, but decided not to. - +1 y
"read between the lines"
another word for conspiracy?
Where does it say Special Forces say Bin Laden, and were told NOT to apprehend him, and allow him to escape
- +1 y
@HanSwoloRevenge What was the US doing in Afghanistan, boy?
The guys who did 9/11 were all Saudis. Why didn't we invade Saudi Arabia?
- Xper 6 Age: 25 , mho 37%+1 y
Afghanistan was never fully controlled by an outside force from Alexander the Great to the US/NATO joint forces. So, there is no point to even try at this point. Also, the people there would be uplifted rather then develop socially themselves, which is not good either. Road to modern values is as valuable as the finish result itself.
10 Reply We should pull out, yeah. Probably shoild have when bin Laden was killed, the. But leaving a country is a hectic affair, as current circumstances are showing - especially when the operation spans two administrations that are hostile with one another resulting in one never really handing power off to the next.
00 ReplyPresident Trump and General Petraeus had a draw down schedule that left nobody behind or unprotected, but biden being the jealous little bitch he is, scrapped that plan and now biden is getting a lot of folks killed, not just Americans. That’s what happens when you put a PUNK ASS BITCH in the White House.
00 ReplyYou guys should let them be. They are not ready for your democracy. People want it, people you put in power just want power and money. Until there is someone local who can inspire people to fight, there's not much you can do unless you stay there forever and babysit them.
00 Reply- 512 opinions shared on Trending & News topic. Master Age: 38+1 y
I think this entire ordeal is just ridiculous. We spent 10 years there, claiming to want to establish a democracy and what did we accomplish? Nothing. It's time we realize that we failed and made a fool of ourselves and just leave them alone finally. That's what we should have done to begin with.
10 Reply - Xper 7 Age: 37+1 y
I heard that the pull out method isn't very effective but if it works it can possibly save you a lot of monetary- as well as emotional drama
20 Reply I think a international presence In Afghanistan is essential. The U. S. should negotiate with allies about sharing the burden further. NATO forces could also do more extensive co-operation with regional powers such as India and Russia. The sudden withdrawal was a massive misjudgment by president Biden.
10 Reply- Yoda Age: 59+1 y
I think we should be there till all Americans and approved Afghanis are able to evacuate. The Taliban has not yet said if we get an extension past Tuesday. Lets hope they do. The problem is after 10 years they were only playing army. Once we were left and they had to fight they folded. Its a shame
10 Reply - Xper 4 Age: 30+1 y
I think we should refrain from war with them. We gave it our all. My buddy doesn’t want to go back. It’s been a shitshow from the jump. Heart goes out the families effected tho.
This could easily be the new “Lusitania” or another “weapons of mass destruction discovered “ events. I think it’s more going on than we are being told. Can’t believe everything cnn says.10 Reply - Master Age: 39 , mho 64%+1 y
I don’t know why they they were there in the first place so I cannot give in an informed answer but I think Biden would only do it if he believes it benefits Americans and he may know things we do not.
111 Reply- +1 y
@jennifer_bloom “Biden would only do what benefits Americans…” are you f’ing kidding me? He was given accurate military intelligence that this was a very bad idea but he plowed ahead anyway. You know why? He only cares about saying “I was the president who ended the war in Afganistán” for political optics. He wanted to push that headline for campaigning in 2024 (or campaigning for Harris).
Something tells me you would have a radically different opinion if this all went down when Trump was in office. - +1 y
They were there to eliminate Osama bin Laden. Apparently, in order to apprehend (or assassinate) a person, one must invade the nation within which they are hiding, and not co-operate with the government that is in place in order to bring that person to justice (unless, of course, the nation that one wishes to invade can actually fight back, has nukes, or is a Western 'democracy').
- +1 y
That's a joke, right? Please tell me you were just joking Jennifer.
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- +1 y
- 549 opinions shared on Trending & News topic. Master Age: 51 , mho 35%+1 y
We can't leave fast enough. That's why the August 31 deadline is so important.
Get the fuck out of Dodge!40 Reply They shouldn't have been there, to begin with. Let's face it this was never about the Taliban, they don't care what happens to the citizens they only care about oil. America has bombed Afghanistan themselves plenty of times.
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