Why do guys have to initiate everything with girls? why can't there be more give and take?

[Anonymous]

Why do guys have to initiative everything with girls? It's like this, if a guy and a girl want to start talking to each other, the guy starts the talking, the guy starts the conversation and keeps it going. Who starts the conversation first? the guy does. Who says I like you first? the guy does. Who asks who out first? the guy does. Who calls/texts who first? the guy does. Who picks the place to go out? the guy does. Who says I love you first? the guy does. Who has the place for sex? the guy does.

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+1 y

like why can't things be more 50/50? like more of a partnership?

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+1 y

Mainly, why do guys have to initiative almost everything in the beginning that lead up to a date or a relationship?

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+1 y

Even if it is just flirting, small talking, any form of verbal communication, conversation, why does the guy always have to start it and hold it, keep it going?

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+1 y

I'm okay with a guy asking a girl out but the girl can at least start a first conversation, small talk, or flirt, but why do guys have to initiate everything or almost in the beginning before a potential date or potential relationship?

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+1 y

Why do people say it's a Masculine thing for the guy, or Man to take the lead, make the first move, doing the approaching, asking the girl out, overall, taking the initiative, why? Is it because Biologically speaking, Men are more dominant?

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+1 y

Since on average, Men are taller and physically stronger than Women, are able to gain bigger muscles because of Testosterone, that's why even if a Man and a Woman both work out intensely at the same rate, the Man will end up becoming stronger.

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+1 y

Is that why people always say "Because Your a Man", "Man Up", "Grow a Pair", etc.?

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Personally, I think it's easier for a girl to meet a guy, a potential boyfriend and enter a relationship than it is for a guy to meet a girl, a potential girlfriend and enter a relationship because of the fact that us guys have to initiate.

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+1 y

Shyness hurts Men a lot more than it hurts Women.

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+1 y

why does the guy always or more than half the time, have to make the first move, take the first step before socializing with a girl? whether the guy is looking for a girlfriend, date, or just a friendship, etc.?

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Also even if it is for just hooking up, casual sex or a one-night stand, the guy initiates everything or almost everything.

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+1 y

Why does the guy always have to start the conversation and keep it going?

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Girls have it so much easier because they always or usually have the final say, the final approval or final denial before taking anything further sexually or socially, all girls have to do is say Yes or No.

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+1 y

Girls have all the sexual and social power when it comes to dating and relationships.

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+1 y

I agree, I hate having to initiate everything.

[jdcpa]

I'm confused what exactly you're complaining about.

Are you frustrated because you have to make all this effort? Are you just making a general observation of the inequality that's involved in the formation of a relationship between a man and woman? Or are you making a general observation about the relative effort a man has to put into creating a new relationship and the relative benefits he receives?

Let's get the last two out of the way, because they're rather short.

Men & women are both people. They have the same desires and needs.

Needs: safety, security, comfort, survival (and on that note; reproduction, or else their genes are permenantly filtered out of existance)

Desires: sex, status (feel good about ourselves relative to others), love

I'm not going to say anything anti-21st-century here, so let's assume that the man is no longer expected the be the provider for a dependent women. Let's assume that they are both able to support themselves, are independent, and don't look at one an other as a means of being able to better finance the kind of lifestyle they want for themselves (ie. K-fed & Anna Nicole)

With that assumption in mind, does a man satisfy more desires and needs of a woman, than a woman satisfies of a man? Is the benefit of entering into a relationship somehow more for one sex than the other? Does the effort that sex have to put into forming a new relationship reflect the benefit they receive? Is that what bothers you? Are you happy you got your answer in the open now? Shall we move on?

Guys have testosterone. I'm done being PC; it makes us stronger and smarter. (If you feel like debating, show me your college statistics and I'll kindly direct you to a history book or nobel prize list). We desire less, and are better able to provide what we need, not just for ourselves, but for our families, and even have extra to spare for society! We're a pretty efficient and productive creature. Women don't have that luxury. The playing field, by nature, is unfair.

What do you want women to do? To bend over and beg you? To tell you "please! I'm afraid of being alone and lonely, I want to feel pretty, and wanted, I need to feel safe, I want someone to take care of me, I need your hard throbbing manhood inside me, I want someone to take me shopping and pamper me like a princess, and listen to me, and a million other things; which are so much more than what you want from me or from what I could ever give you. I surrender! you win! I submit to your dominance. I'm yours"

If you were a woman, you'd think the same thing "like hell I'd say that". So instead, to compensate, and increase what little value you have to men, you make yourself less easily available! You demand that men work to have you, even if you'd benefit more, because it "LEVELS THE PLAYING FIELD" and "NOBODY WANTS TO FEEL POWERLESS!"

So give her the courtesy of making her feel you're "working & making an effort" to have her. It's lets her feel special.

[Asker]

So you are against aggressive women?

[QueenKatie]

The statement that men are smarter than women is really offensive. Not to mention inaccurate. The reason men figure more strongly in history and nobel prize lists has nothing to do with inherent intelligence and everything to do with restrictive features of culture: men have simply had opportunities that weren't available to women (and this continues to be the case, despite girls outperforming boys at school).

[InquisitiveMale]

QueenKatie - I agree with everything said aside from "girls outperform guys in school". Check your facts. Labeling one gender smarter then another is just ignorant.

[jdcpa]

"girls outperforming boys at school" School is such a general term. Are we talking pre-k & undergrad in college? Or are we talking medical & law school? Are we using college grads, or practicing doctors & lawyers as our proxy?

I don't want to start a flame/troll war. 3000 characters was just not enough space to get the main point across AND be politically correct at the same time.

You're a feminist, and I love & respect feminists (and distrust women who aren't); so I do appologize.

[Asker]

So are you saying it is part of nature, biology, the reason why us guys have to initiate?

[jdcpa]

In re. to ur question update: it's called framing, leading, or psychological manipulation.. If I could make you feel bad or negative if you didn't do what I wanted you to do, and good for doing what I wanted you to do.. and you wouldn't notice, or better, would actually agree and support this system of me controlling your behavior to cater to my needs and wants.. all that's left is to make up some b/s excuse or justification so you don't feel controlled or used.. and I don't feel guilty

[jdcpa]

Ie: A "real man" isn't "afraid" to make the payments on my new Lexus. If you accept this frame & statement as true, and you do not make the payments on the new Lexus, then that means you have accepted that you are "afraid" and NOT a "real man". Very clever isn't it?

If you take a step back and think about it, you'll begin to become aware of just how naive most men are to this type of manipulation, and how easily they accept these frames and subject themselves to psychological control

[jdcpa]

Bringing it back to your question; If he doesn't have the "balls" (metaphor for masculinity and male identity) to approach me, initiate, etc, then he must NOT "be a man". Justification for you to accept this frame? Biology.

want some more?

if he doesn't _____, then he does NOT "really love you"

if he "loves you", then he will/won't ______.

if he pays & takes care of u, he's "such a gentleman"

if he doesn't, he's "cheap"

none of these statements apply to me as a woman.. sorry

[Asker]

Well then why is it the man's job?

[jdcpa]

Your question presupposes that it "is" the man's "job" to approach, initiate, pay, etc.

since that's the case, the answer is simple:

1. because that's what you continue to believe is the case

2. because you accept those imposed obligations as your job (b/c you've accepted the conditional statements and suggestions that force you into the frame of making it your job because you are a man)

otherwise, "why is it a man's job?" is a poorly phrased and non-applicable question

[jdcpa]

Let me ask you to consider it an other way;

What is a "woman's" job? Not obligations that are self-imposed (that she "chooses" to make her duty)

Think about it. Both guys and girls have an incentive to look attractive for the other. From that point on, can you think of a reason to justify the disporoportionate amount of effort that goes into forming a new relationship? Or for that matter, the disproportionate amount of investment?

not really..

[iamranga]

Idcpa, you have enlightened me and for that I salute you.

*Performs the worshipful motion over and over again*

[bobair]

In regards to your latest updates (start a new thread, this one's getting muddy)

"Update: Girls have it so much easier because they always or usually have the final say, the final approval or final denial before taking anything further sexually or socially, all girls have to do is say Yes or No. Girls have all the sexual and social power when it comes to dating and relationships."

Of course it's up to her whether or not she's going to have sex with you, but I'm unsure why you think that gives her any more power than you?

I can say no to sex just as she can.

As a man I have just as much power to be selective about the type of women I chooseto talk to, who I choose to sleep with, etc.

The reason you're complaining is because you're likely living a life of low value where you think women are only valued for the sex they can offer, and that you can only provide her value through money, social status or attention.

The truth is that those men who get any girl they want are men who see themselves as powerful valuable guys, who assume the status they display. They definitely don't whine about women, or complain that "women have all the power."

Take a moment and try to understand the importance of this mindset. Think of yourself as a powerful sexy man who women want to be with and you'll start to see the world very differently.

Good luck!

~ Robby

My Blog ( link )

[Asker]

Thanks, well that's easier said than done, but it's hard to develop that kind of confidence and attitude if you have little experience with women. Not only is it up to the woman if she is going to have sex with me or not, it's always up to her whether a relationship or date is going to happen.

[bobair]

Fair enough. Sometimes learning a new mindset requires us to see the impossible. If you think attracting women is hard, then you need to spend some time with guy's who are amazing with women. You'll notice that they have beliefs that you may never have considered before.

What's what happened for me - I started seeing things I thought not possible, until I was making those same impossible things happen.

If you can't find those guys, then read about them. Start with "The Game" by Neil Strauss.

[Asker]

None of my friends are amazing with women, they are all single. Seriously, women have always had it easier, and they always will have it easier.

[bobair]

It's that "limiting belief" that's messing you up. The reality is that woman have it WAY harder than us guys. Put yourself into the shoes of any cute girl and you'll become overwhelmed by the unrelenting unrequested attention from creepy and dangerous men. You can't relate because you've never felt the physical/emotional dangers women do when dating. They need protection we don't, so don't blame them for being picky - blame men for making them feel unsafe.

[Asker]

I still think women have it easier because all they have to do is just wait, they get easy dates standing still, us guys have to work in order to get anything from a woman and with a woman.

[bobair]

Your problem is that you're trying to "get something" from women. And they can tell when you approach them. If you had something to share, instead of take, you'd have much more success.

Read This: https://www.fullofhateandreadytodate.com/blog/how-do-i-get-a-girl/

P.S. I work far less at getting date then any of my female friends... so explain that.

[Asker]

No, I'm referring to the fact that us guys have to do all or most of the work when it comes to getting a date or relationship.

[bobair]

I'm unsure what "work" you're referring to.

Do you mean working out 5 days a week, eating hardly nothing to stay thin, buying endless makeup, hair extensions, hair coloring, high heel shoes, perfumes, dresses, eye lash extensions, books to explain how to catch a guy, coffee's with girlfriends to find out if he really likes you, and self defense courses in case he tries to rape you?

No wait, that's what women do.

All you have to do is put on pants and ask her out. Seems pretty easy.

[Asker]

The work I am referring to is that us guys always have to make the first move, and all the other moves that lead up to getting her number, first date, first kiss, first time making out, first time having sex, asking and starting the relationship, making it happen.

[bobair]

That's not work, that's fun. Like playing a video game, or eating a yummy breakfast. Next you'll start to complain that mommy doesn't wipe your bum anymore, and that nobody is lifting the fork to your mouth when you eat.

Leading a woman into a fun sexual relationship is one of the greatest events life has to offer. I can't see how you would want to participate even less the you already do.

Perhaps you're more angry that you haven't met the right girl?

[Asker]

I hate doing that work because I hate it when a woman is not receptive, I hate being rejected, women have it easier because all they have to do is say yes or no.

[Asker]

It's way more easier for a girl to meet the right guy than it is for a guy to meet the right girl, because when a girl gets a boyfriend, it just happens, however when guys get a girlfriend, it did not just happen, the guy had to make it happen, waiting for the right person to enter your life is better than going after it because you get to avoid being rejected that way.

[Asker]

I still call it work, because when us guys have to make all the moves, do all the talking and conversations in order to get the girl, it's like we have to pass or go through a series of sh*t, annoying tests

[frustratedchump06]

I agree with him, it's only not fun when the girl is not welcoming our advances

[Tamikaze]

It's the natural order of things, for a very good reason, but not quite what you make it out to be.

In general, guys approach a lot of women initially out of sexual attraction and could be very happy to enjoy sex with a woman and nothing else, no risk of falling in love.

In general, women are looking for a relationship. In fact, I would love it if I could be the one to start up the dating process and everything else. But, the reality is that if I do I am looking at you as a potential boyfriend, no sex would happen until I knew you were the one and we were in a relationship, and, this would all happen really fast. Like in a few weeks, maybe a month I would date you a lot, talk on the phone a lot and makeup my mind and we would be in a relationship. But most guys are highly uncomfortable with that and I get that. You need more time to process your feelings and decide if you really want a relationship. That is why you end up being the one to queu each stage of dating and a relationship, at least in an official way.

On to why you haven't quite captured the essence of what is really happening. Men and women alike seem to want to focus only on direct communication in relationships and negate all the indirect communication. I understand, it can be hard to tell the difference when someone does something, as to whether they are just trying to be friendly or they are telling you that they really like you and want to move to the next stage. But, I don't know, when I like a guy there just isn't much confusion on how I feel. I don't have to say "I love you", it is in my eyes, the way I act around my man, how I treat him and the fact that I want to see him at any point in time he asks to get together.

Luckily I do think there is also give and take in this. I have been the one to say "I love you first". I have no problem starting up a conversation either. I do leave the asking out on a date part up to the guy. I also try to let them set the pace on contact in the beginning so I don't overwhelm them and push them away. It has helped me to learn the difference in how much contact most guys tend to want initially and slow down what I would probably normally want. Oh, and the place for sex, well maybe guys put more effort into making sure they have a place to have sex considering you hope to have it more so than you hope to have a girlfriend.

[Asker]

You women have everything so much easier, I just f***in' hate how women complain and whine all the time that they have it harder than men do, I hate how they complain about periods, pregnancy and childbirth, grow up and get a life!!!!!!!

[Tamikaze]

Why dd you leave that comment? I don't complain about being a woman or anything that goes with it. Stop complaining about the stuff that goes with being a man.

[QueenKatie]

I agree with you! I think it's terrible that in the twenty-first century, some women still don't feel able to ask a guy out for fear of rejection or being called 'immodest'. The model seems to be that girls are supposed to 'wait on the shelf to be picked by guys' - essentially a very passive role, which places all the important choices in the dating game out of their control. Look at how many girls there are on this website agonizing over 'whether he likes me' and asking 'why doesn't he say something?' It's really depressing.

At base, there's also an assumption behind the inequality that men are only interested in sex, while women want relationships. There's still a view that the 'good girl' (i.e. the girl who wants to get married) must sit back, shyly, and wait, virginally, for Prince Charming. Meanwhile the aforementioned Prince Charming can sow his oats wherever he pleases with 'bad girls' (who are confident in bed, but not relationship-worthy). It's unbelievably chauvenistic, like something out of the medieval period! And it couldn't be more untrue. There are tons of guys out there who are desperate for companionship, and tons of women who just adore sex.

I think it's a lot more erotically interesting if the dating game is more equal, because women no longer have to wait around to be noticed, but can get out there and make empowered choices for themselves about whom they want to date, and why they want to date them. I also think that there is a big connection between having the courage to initiate things with a guy, and being confident in bed!

The best thing that guys like you can do is to help sledgehammer those reactionary sexual ideas that lie behind the inequalities that at the beginning of a relationship. Speak up! Be vocal about how much you like and value women who are independent, women with careers who make their own money, who know their own minds, and who aren't dependent on men! Get out there and help to level the playing field, so women get an equal deal not just in relationships, but in sports clubs, offices and boardrooms. Don't put up with a situation where women put their careers aside for childcare and chores, while men continue earning cash and kudos. Once we have equality in the home and at work, maybe we'll get equality in dating too.

[Regularguy]

That's a great idea, the next time I go on a date I will let the other person know how much I value women who are independent and can make up their own minds.

[Asker]

So you believe there is nothing wrong at all with a girl asking a guy out on a date?

[QueenKatie]

Absolutely! And I practice what I preach - I was the one who initiated things with my current boyfriend by asking him out!

[Asker]

Well good for you, I love aggressive women!!!!!!

[QueenKatie]

Thanks! I'm glad I did, because he's an absolute sweetheart and I would have wasted forever waiting for him to ask me, because due to a miscommunication with someone I work with, he thought I was dating someone else at the time!

[Asker]

I wish it would happen more often, like it still seems that 80 or 90 percent of the time, girls wait and expect guys to initiate.

[jdcpa]

That's used to be 99.9999999% just 40 years ago. You should read a book called Pig Theory. It talks about how useless the pig is as an animal. But the only reason it's survived is because its main predator (humans) prefer the taste of its meat (pork); and so allow it's useless genes to survive. The women who do survive are ones who appeal to what men desire. If they don't, quality men won't pick them, and so the 99% of women who wait turns to 90%, 80%, 70%, 60%, 50%, 1%..

[jdcpa]

Douche' bags & skit-chasers do most of the initiating. those are usually on the lower spectrum of successful & quality guys. the successful & quality guys don't chase after women, because they're busy chasing after business/investment opportunities, bettering themselves physically & mentally. so as part of natural selection, the women who wait will end up with a certain quality of man, while those who are more proactive will end up with an other. the dominant trait will persist; while the other wont

[toona]

And this is how we achieve balance: the women who wait will end up with a aggressive guys, and the good guys will end up with aggressive girls! And this pig theory, was very funny, but wouldn't that go the same way for guys? And another little question to idcpa: you say 'Douche' bags & skit-chasers do most of the initiating' , so what kind of women initiate? Are they also from that category? Or it only applies to men?

[QueenKatie]

I don't know that the natural selection thing holds. That's a theory about reproductive success, and the passing on of genes that are best suited to survival in a particular environment. The 'fittest' individuals aren't those who are more intelligent, more wealthy or more beautiful, but those who have the most kids. In modern human society, those reproducing the most aren't necessarily the cleverest, richest and most powerful individuals.

[jdcpa]

Toona.. I'll have an article up by this weekend about partner selection, bargaining, negotiations and pricing in "the market".. I promise it'll be an interesting read and not too heavily technical on economic/finance/real-estate terms.. basically how for as long as we're participating in the market, we have both a value offered/supplied and value demanded/wanted.. so I'll talk about how we price ourselves, and the bargaining/negotiation strategy in the dating market based on our value & wants

[Asker]

So it's part of nature or biology as to the reason why men have to take the initiative?

[Anonymous]

Of course guys have to do all the work on one-night stands and casual sex. Girls don't want that. They want a guy who will be their boyfriend, not a hookup. They only go along with that because in the back of their mind they think it will lead to something more. So, if you want to hit it and quit it, be prepared to work. I personally wouldn't want to have sex with some passive guy who felt so uncomfortable saying hello. It would make me wonder how uninvolved you would be in the bedroom. Good luck.

[Asker]

Well then how come all the girls out there who are into having one-night stands or casual sex, hook-ups, still make the guys work for it? C'mon, girls should know that they have almost nothing to lose because almost no straight guy will say No to Sex.

[Opinion Owner]

That is where you are mistaken. There are not a bunch of girls out there who are into casual sex. There are a bunch of girls out there who end up in it but only because it was a guy's idea. Girl's would totally prefer a relationship and mistakenly believe sex could give them that.

[Asker]

So in reality, there are not as much sluts, whores as society and the media makes out to be? I bet the girls that get called sluts, whores, do not sleep around by choice right?

[Opinion Owner]

You are coming across as a misogynist, not as someone who is shy and has trouble approaching women. Women do not sleep with multiple partners for the same reasons guys do. Women prefer to meet the guy who is going to treasure them for a partner and can be highly misguided to think sex will lead to a relationship. Guys on the other hand can and do sleep with multiple partners sheerly for sexual pleasure and nothing more.

[Asker]

No I am just misinterpreted what you said before.

[ErosIsDead]

You mean as "Uninvolved" as girls are in every other area?

[Mahmenn]

@ErosIsDead amen

[Ankitbhawsar]

LOL... That's the answer that could be expected by only a cheap mentality person !!!
The worst excuse I have ever seen in my life !!!
What a cheap mentality, well dear I would like to suggest you, First grow up, And get matured, then Answer such type of questions. Ok?
Best of luck ! ☺️

[bobair]

Read David Deida books and you'll understand the deep genetic drives we have as men and women. ( link )

You're a MAN for God's sakes... why are you trying to force women to risk embarrassment, public rejection, and social upset!? Women already have enough on their plates... worrying about how they look, how people perceive them, physical dangers of dating, etc.

The reality is that the rejection we get from a "I don't give my number to strangers" is harmless.

Perhaps complaining that you're too insecure to tell a woman she's beautiful isn't the right approach?

Instead take action, learn how to build your confidence, forget about your useless ego, and start surprising the beautiful women who come into your life by being MASCULINE, proud, and unashamed of your direct approach.

~ Robby

[Asker]

I don't care if I am a "MAN", like you say, why does it have to be the "MAN'S" job? is it because Men are naturally, biologically, physicall stronger than Women?

[bobair]

No, it's because of pure chivalry and heroism that it's your duty to step into that dark scary room ahead of your date... not the other way around.

What kind of "man" expects the woman to face such dangers?

[Asker]

In a way, you kinda are implying that the reason us men have to take the initiative is because we are the dominant sex.

[bobair]

Ha! If that's what you think, then read it again. I'm saying the person with the most masculine traits (typically the man, but not always) should be the one taking the risks.

Would you let your sister or mom walk ahead of you into a dark dangerous room? I hope not.

It's the same with dating... don't ask her to take the risk of rejection. Besides, how can she respect you if you proven yourself cowardly before she's even gotten to know you?

[Anonymous]

I wish it was easier to meet a guy and enter a relationship. It is easier to meet a guy if you don't mind being their one night stand or booty call. But most guys are very uncomfortable to nicely tell you that they don't see you as relationship material, so instead they just make you feel crummy and call you things like clingy or just don't respond to your messages and ignore you. Or they make jokes about girls behind their backs if they think the girl is beneath them.

Most guys just are not like you at all. You and your friends are unusual. Again I think a lot of guys in theory joke about wanting a girl to jump their bones, but in reality they do not like girls trying to put the relationship moves on them.

[Asker]

Well even if it is just small talk, socializing, conversation us guys almost all the time have to start it.

[Opinion Owner]

At your age, sure. Not when you get older. At your age girls are given the subtle message by society that they look like whores if they do anything to get a guy's attention. Since talking to a guy when you are young is all about trying to get with that guy, it makes it real uncomfortable for girls. But we all get over this stuff the older we get. But then you will be confused because a woman can talk to you without wanting to get with you when you are older.

[Asker]

Well that sucks, because we all get uglier as we get older.

[Opinion Owner]

It sounds like you already want life to suck. You have such a doomsday philosophy anyways. Luckily we do not all get uglier as we get older. And guys, even at your age, do not do all the initiating. It's a dance between two people.

[Asker]

What do you mean us guys do not do all the initiating?

[MrNameless]

Because too many women out there are morons and still stick to old tradition of "waiting" for guys to ask them out. The men who support this old tradition are idiots too.

Listen... If you like a girl, by all means.. make a move on her--not because of stupid old stereotypical washed out gender traditions.. But because you don't want to risk losing a potentially good girl friend.

But if you keep on making more moves than her, and she doesn't reciprocate much.. Forget about her and move on. If you like her still.. wait for her to come crawling back, or get to know another woman.

[Asker]

I hate those kind of women.

[Anonymous]

Love is not partnership. At least in my opinion. Confessing demands courage, guts, nerve… you name it. Courageous woman is certainly appealing, but courageous man just blows my mind! I want him to blow my mind, that is why. In addition, in a relationship, if a guy has to initiate, a girl has her own 'duties', she has to manage it so her man is happy and feels complete. All I demand is to show me he likes me, I will do the rest for him. In other words, we don’t have the same 'tasks' in a relationship, I don’t want to do guy's job and I will not let him do mine.

[Asker]

Why can't there be more give and take? Us guys get shy and nervous as well, how come it's okay for girls to be shy and nervous, but not for guys?

[Opinion Owner]

Why? I guess, because shy is not a 'male' attribute. It was like that for centuries, it is very difficult to overlook it, but I think it is changing slowly. It is not just give and take, it is more give 'this' and take 'that'. If the girl is smart and she wants you, you will never have to do 'all of it'! It really will be 50/50 (and even 25/75), but in a different way.

[Asker]

Is it because society thinks men are the more dominant and stronger sex? is that why?

[Opinion Owner]

Society thinks? no no no, the mother-nature did so! It will take some time to 'undo' it.

[jdcpa]

"we don?t have the same 'tasks' in a relationship, I don?t want to do guy's job and I will not let him do mine."

If you were given the easier tasks, and s/o else was given the difficult tasks, would you want to trade? if they wanted you to share some of their tasks, would you want to do their job? would you let them do the easier tasks? would you find ways to justify maintaining things the way they are? would you be in favor of traditional duties or progressive duties? (point & case)

[Opinion Owner]

I am traditional girl, probably because of my family. I can not justify things accepted for thousands years, I am just explaining how it works in my head. Are you looking for a way to make it easier? I don't know if other girls think the same, but in my opinion a guy who wants it to be easier, well, he is not a man enough for me (sounds like a cliche hoh). So in the end you'll look for a girl who can ask you out (she will look for you), and I'll look for a guy who asks me out. Be happy :)

[Asker]

So you want it to be hard for guys?

[Opinion Owner]

Nooooooo, I am not that biachy....If it is hard for you don't do it! You will find your girl , oh well she will find you, I am sure.

[Asker]

Well still in 2009, more than half the time, it is the guy that finds the girl, literally.

[vmw2008]

It's because experience has taught girls that if we chase the guys, we lower our value in a guys eyes. We never see a guy tripping over himself, picturing a marriage with a girl that's calling him and asking him out. It's always the girl he had to chase to get. We hear you guys complain about those annoying, easy, "ho's" that call too much, show our feelings too much, act too desperate. So we learned. Girls that let the guy chase get placed at a higher value. Just the way it is. Girls are turned on when a guy chases. Guys are turned off when a girl does.

[jdcpa]

So true! Which is why I guess it explains why girls never say things like "ugh, he won't stop calling me!" or "he's still talking to me after I told him no". And why guys who chase are never seen to have lower value themselves. Mhm.. makes perfect sense.

[jdcpa]

I think the more appropriate answer should just be. "Listen little boy, do you really want me to waste both our time and make up some nice sounding BS, or do you want to really know why. You wanna know why? Because I just like being chased. I love the attention, and it makes me feel good, desired, wanted. It validated all my hard effort that goes into looking good. For you, being chased doesn't mean that much."

[vmw2008]

Couldn't have said it better myself lol

[Asker]

Do you really think all guys are turned-ff by aggressive girls? I am not not, and my friends are not either.

[vmw2008]

I didn't say aggressive. But you can't tell me that the girl you dream about spending the rest of you life with is the girl who calls you every day when you never call her, who makes all the plans, who keeps telling you she likes you until you finally like her back. She sounds clingy. Whereas that's the way it works in reverse everyday.

[Asker]

Well I am not turned-off by a girl who calls or texts me everyday, because it shows how much she likes me or loves me, I hate reading non-verbal hints.

[InquisitiveMale]

Its a woman’s virtues that are the problem. Their rights have come a long way but their virtues remain much the same.

All those statements you made about what a guy does and a girl doesn’t are vastly untrue. Aside from the initial introduction and asking for a date it is pretty much 50/50.

MY opinion, not yours.

Cheers.

[Asker]

Yeah, why should women take it upon themselves to approach when siting back, relaxing and waiting for the date puts them in a position of absolute power? I guess that's why most women do not take the sexual initiative.

[InquisitiveMale]

It all depends on how you view things. Women only have the pick of men who make a move, men have the pick of every women they see.

[Asker]

Well when women only have the pick of men that make a move on them, that makes it easier for women because they get to avoid rejection that way, they get to do the rejecting instead of receiving it.

[jdcpa]

I think ur missing IM's point.

If you're looking for work, you can either be active or passive.

If you're passive, you don't risk applying & being rejected. You wait until a firm sees you and is interested in you, makes you an offer, you consider offers made to you, then pick one you like.

If you're active, you risk being rejected, but you also pick which firms you want. Some of them might not want you, but of the ones that do, you just gained a better paying & more satisfying job.

[jdcpa]

And if you want to take the metaphor further, there's a psychological filter in the labor market.

the less human talent an employee has, the more insecure he/she is. this causes them to "wait" for firms to approach them, because being sought after and desired comforts their lack of value they have to offer employers.

the more human talent an employee has, the less insecure they are, which causes them to feel comfortable in going after the firms and jobs THEY want, rather than waiting.

[jdcpa]

It really depends where you stand psychologically.

If you're not confident and secure, you naturally perfer to wait for others to notice you, show you interest, and make you offers, while you sit back and consider. (because this comforts your insecurities & validates your low self-esteem)

But if you're confident & secure, you care less about comforting yourself emotionally, and more about getting the REAL value you want (looks, great sex, money, status, love)

The issue is you, not women

[Asker]

Women have it easier because it's easier to be visually appealing to someone than it is to be emotionally, socially appealing to someone.

[InquisitiveMale]

You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.

This is a debate that never started. If you're not willing to listen and try to understand another persons views what is the point? You're what I like to call an "extremists". Once you obtain a certain belief you close yourself down to rational paths of thinking.

Accepting sometimes you're wrong is a life lesson you've yet to learn. You will sooner or later.

[xxsocalgrlxx]

we are scared of rejection... but I have said I love you first, I have texted first, and I have said I like you first...but it really all depends on the female... because I know what doesn't kill me makes me stronger... and I look at it as its their loose not mine! the other stuff maybe true.. I don't bring a guy to my compound unless he for sure is the one...

[Asker]

But what about talking, flirting or conversation? why does the guy almost all the time have to initiate that part too?

[Asker]

How come any form of conversation, communication, the guy has to initiate?

[armyant]

That's just how it works. Men are attracted to some behaviors in women and women are attracted to some behaviors in men. This is one of them.

Don't think women are happy with their role in male-female interactions either. Hell, this site is full of complaints about how relationships are so unfair for women and society this and society that. You're part of society. If you don't agree with it you can go play by your own rules, but I imagine the company might be dull.

[frustratedchump06]

It is tradition, and since our culture and society has made that the status quo, why girls women risk rejection when they can let all the guys come to them? They can get away with doing nothing, so of course they are going to get away with it"

"Why should girls take it upon themselves to approach guys and ask them out, start a conversation when siting back, relaxing and waiting for the date and right guy puts them in a position of absolute power?"

[lala-b]

girls are just scared of rejection

[InquisitiveMale]

So are guys.

[iwbym]

We tend to be scared as well...but society says we shouldnt...society also says women should...god I hate society

[Asker]

We all are just as scared, I hate double-standards in society.

[lala-b]

Well I'm not saying you guys aren't but that usually the reason

[HateBeingSingleAspie]

life was never meant to be fair

[ihatetakingcharge]

easier to do nothing than to do something