Why do some guys not understand where flirting ends and harrassment begins? (Page 2)
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Because it is exactly the same behaviour - the only difference between welcome flirting and sexual harassment is how it is received. If a woman provides no feedback, she might think that she hasn't done anything to encourage the man to continue so he should stop, whereas the man might think that she has done nothing to indicate that it is unwelcome so he should continue.
People who harass you generally understand it is harassment, they just do not care that it is. People who harass you usually have a sense of entitlement that comes along with a lot of shit personality flaws.
How shall we know? Guys mostly learn dating by doing it ourselves. We don´t read books or blogs about dating, so we learn by trying. I´m sorry if you have been harrassed by a guy. But the best help you can give is TELL him, because he won´t learn it anyother way. Every human being is different where one thinks it´s harassement the other might say it´s just risky flirting.
It works both ways. It's just many guys don't complain about it. We tend to suck it up. Women have rubbed their breasts against my body at my workplace. It wasn't an accident either because they took their time to do it. One even grabbed me and started feeling me up. That's Sexual Assault right there. Imagine a guy doing that to a woman at the workplace. Yeah, Me Too. It doesn't bother me though because I know which ones to pursue.
It doesn’t bother you if some chick at work grabs and gripes you? “Some” chick or “the ones” you’re trying to pursue?
Gropes
@On_cloud_wine No, it doesn't bother me. They eventually move on if I'm not interested anyway.
Well it bothers us
Yeah, I know
If it was me you were interested in, and you allowed some chick to rub up against you right in front of me, I would think you mad flirted with them, too
Because they are the girls... Instead getting rude or taking action against them... Let them know about where they crossed limit and give another chance... Not all are born with same instinct as girls have
Just common social skinlls
Social skills comes from society... So different society would have different Norms and followings... So I feel girl shall tell her politely rather than just outrage on him...
Explain common knowledge to a grown up? No I'm goot
You would have figured it out by now
Common knowledge is only common if it is actually common. Meaning, there are those who practice different norms as ajaykinky stated. Having said that, if you refuse to show discomfort, or state your displeasure plainly for any reason, then what will change? In your mind, it should be understood and I get that. Not everyone does though. And not everyone will follow it even if they know. So you have to educate them by clearly stating your discomfort. If someone invades my personal space when I don't want it, I let them know with body language first, and if it continues, I tell them outright. It's easy to say "it should be common decency" but keep in mind that not everyone will know what that is, nor even when knowing will they not push boundaries to see where they can go. Speak up.
Because everyone has different boundaries. Some women don't mind certain things that other women would be really uncomfortable with. Same goes for men as well, obviously. There is no universal standards for exactly where the line is drawn.
Just be clear and let the person know that you're not comfortable with how they're acting and 99,9 % of people will stop.
That's what I said too
Because each gal has a different line to cross, and us men cannot see the line. The line is invisible.
Doesn’t help that many women are passive aggressive about this stuff, and would either bad-mouth him or report him to have him formally punished/sanctioned... instead of letting him know.
So speak the fuck up when a line is crossed, so we know! 👌🏾
"The guys who understand either had good home training or have had sex with a woman without being charged🤣 "
I'm in the latter category 🤣
👍👍👍
@LexyIsSexy23 😁
@LexyIsSexy23 oh that smiley doesn't look like proud smiley hahaha
:D
@LexyIsSexy23 tbh I don't even really feel like it's much of an accomplishment.. hahaha
Hey! did you sexually harass anyone today?
Nope!
Ok then hahahaha
I think people who blame their "home training" are abdicating personal responsibility.
This is not a difficult concept to understand. You don't need years of training..
Just stop when she tells you to.
Right
I think a lot of the issue is that the boundary lines change too much for guys to really know. What is okay changes from woman to woman, which is pretty normal and reasonable, but then many times, it will change from day to day, depending on how the woman feels. THAT much change is not okay. To make matters even worse, most guys, maybe even all (straight) guys, have personal life experience of respecting a woman's signals and then getting chastised for not reading between the lines.
I would be willing to argue that a part of respect involves assuming that any stranger has incredibly strict boundaries until you can gauge exactly what their actual boundaries are.
@RomanFishTrumpet Certainly! As you get older, you'll see that women will frequently say and do very overtly flirty things for fun. More than a few sexual harassment law suits have happened that way.
Dont think they care enough to want to learn were it begins and were it stops honestly.
I respectfully disagree.
How do you teach all men something that all women can't define clearly? Like there are black and white cases (assault, repeated and clearly unwanted flirtation, invading personal spaces without permission) and then there are gray cases (certain touching, certain comments/compliments, certain conversation topics).
It's the gray cases that throws things off, and the fact that those grays can be darker or lighter depending on the woman.
I've been pressed up against, rubbed on my back after a fresh tattoo, and told I "probably have a big dick". Those comments were awkward and sometimes unwanted but could you seriously see any woman getting fired for those things? Now reverse the roles.
You want to teach men? Teach women to have a collective belief on what is and isn't appropriate then communicate those clear rules. Oh wait, women aren't a collective being and thus can't agree on something like what is and isn't ok for them.
I agree with this. It's really not complicated..
> guy flirts
> girl tells him to stop
> guy keeps flirting
@Insightfull
Not really what I was disagreeing with. I was disagreeing with the fact that it has a clear beginning and end. You gotta remember in today's climate harrassment doesn't need to be stopped with a no and can extend beyond the individual.
For example, a certain burger tycoon restaurant did training with me. Under their codes even a conversation that doesn't involve the woman can be harassment. For example if John is talking to Tom about his new girlfriend and Sarah overheard it she can call it inappropriate conduct.
@Hypnos0929 "even a conversation that doesn't involve the woman can be harassment. For example if John is talking to Tom about his new girlfriend and Sarah overheard it she can call it inappropriate conduct."
Depending on the conversation, I guess. But, fundamentally, that is not real harassment.
Also the idea that it doesn't have to have a "no" is not correct nor just. What if a guy flirts with a woman, who didn't want to be flirted with. She says no, then he stops. Though the sexual attention was unwanted, it is not harassment. Calling it that produces a climate where men are afraid to talk to women. What if I talk to a woman and don't know that she is this crazy and end up in trouble even though I respected her wishes to not when she expressed them?
It is going way too far.
@Hypnos0929 So, I have done a bit of research..
It turns out that there is no specific criminal charge in the Criminal Code of Canada for Sexual Harassment.
There's Sexual Assault, and Criminal Harassment.
Sexual Assault is a subtype of Assault, the law reads:
Assault
265 (1) A person commits an assault when
(a) without the consent of another person, he applies force intentionally to that other person, directly or indirectly;
(b) he attempts or threatens, by an act or a gesture, to apply force to another person, if he has, or causes that other person to believe on reasonable grounds that he has, present ability to effect his purpose; or
(c) while openly wearing or carrying a weapon or an imitation thereof, he accosts or impedes another person or begs.
Application
(2) This section applies to all forms of assault, including sexual assault, sexual assault with a weapon, threats to a third party or causing bodily harm and aggravated sexual assault.
Consent
(3) For the purposes of this section, no consent is obtained where the complainant submits or does not resist by reason of
(a) the application of force to the complainant or to a person other than the complainant;
(b) threats or fear of the application of force to the complainant or to a person other than the complainant;
(c) fraud; or
(d) the exercise of authority.
@Hypnos0929
Criminal Harassment is causing a person to reasonably fear for their personal safety. The law reads:
Criminal harassment
264 (1) No person shall, without lawful authority and knowing that another person is harassed or recklessly as to whether the other person is harassed, engage in conduct referred to in subsection (2) that causes that other person reasonably, in all the circumstances, to fear for their safety or the safety of anyone known to them.
Prohibited conduct
(2) The conduct mentioned in subsection (1) consists of
(a) repeatedly following from place to place the other person or anyone known to them;
(b) repeatedly communicating with, either directly or indirectly, the other person or anyone known to them;
(c) besetting or watching the dwelling-house, or place where the other person, or anyone known to them, resides, works, carries on business or happens to be; or
(d) engaging in threatening conduct directed at the other person or any member of their family.
@Hypnos0929 There is a separate provision in the Canada Labour Code that addresses Sexual Harassment specifically in the context of employment.
www.Canada.ca/.../sexual-harassment.html
@Insightfull that's hilarious dude...
Either we don't tell it to them straight up OR they have a screw loose
The same reason some female's doesn't.
Or for that matter are passive, doesn't say what the want, say something else, doesn't say or show what they feel... the list goes on.
You have to be straight forward, that he did get to far with you and what it was that was to far.
They do understand they just don't care. Those are also the guys that rape chicks than claim she wanted the sex to happen. I'm sorry if you've experienced that
Yikes
And the obvious desperate hookup attempt goes to... :)
@DiscomfortZone not me
Wow, perceptive!
Yeah, I was talking to Mr_Shite :)
@DiscomfortZone each to their own I guess
He seems nice
Yeah lol
Lack of respect, lack of recognition of boundaries, or both.
Thank you
Because to women the difference between "flirting" and "harassment" is defined by whether or not they find the man attractive. If a man who women find unattractive tries to flirt with them, they can report him to HR and have him fired or even criminally prosecuted.
We are at the point where being unattractive is borderline "criminal" for a man.
Any man who flirts with women (or even talks casually with women) at work is a damn fool.
Men tends to overact and not respect boundaries and men are not as intelligent as women in reading body language and picking up on sexual cue signs.
Good answer
Because everyone draws the line at different points and the only way to find where that is is to breach it. Some people find some things flirtatious where others would say it goes too far. Isn’t the very act of flirting seeing where that boundary lies?
Because there isn’t a hard line, so it can’t be known. It’s wherever a woman decides it is and that changes from moment to moment and from guy to guy and depends on all sorts of stuff. How do you navigate that? You can go gently, but even then sometimes your going to misstep. Historically you could apologize when such Hingis happened, it now it’s a minefield and if you mister you can be ended by a MeToo mine just like that.
Because to this day there are a number of women who indicate no when they really want the guy to keep pursuing, because heaven forbid women need to evolve too...
How do I know this? The number of women who come running after me after I walk away because they indicated they weren't interested. The look on their face when I remind them no means no is priceless
I'm on board with women who often show interest when I drop mine. But no always means no when talking about physical space. We don't get to decide that no really means yes there.
For guys it can be tough. Me amd this co-worker flirted with eachother for a while, then she got kind of distant, so i backed off. I moved onto to another job soon after. She drunk texted me to know why i became distant. It takes communication on both sides. You can't solely blame a guy for it.