Do you believe most women are Hypergamous (or they marry 'up')? (Page 2)
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It goes both ways with women, I'd say the vast majority though would be happy being married to one man who's life is just ok.
http://i.imgur.com/DPB6Tq2.png
I see plenty of stay at home dads, times are a changing
Not really. Also they have a much higher probability of being divorced by their wife if they stay at home. Its also why women who earn a lot of money marry much later in life because they refuse to marry some one who makes less then them (in general). Their is nothing wrong with it, Its no different then a man wanting an attractive woman, its biology and it serves a practical function. Just don't let it be all consuming and it should be fine.
@hellionthesagereborn whoa I didn't know that, I thought guys didn't wanna settle down since they can live that bachelor lifestyle
Statistically men are happier married then when they are not. It gives us a purpose. (reminds me of a quote that mentions how women in a way have it easy as they know their purpose from the moment they are born, to create life, but men can search their entire life without finding out why they exist). The fact is commitment for men is as costly as sex is to women. For women if she gets pregnant she is in for nine months of dealing with that, then the many years of child rearing, so she is much more selective about whom she will have sex with, for men they are not because short of the calories burned during sex, they have no investment in it. However when it comes to relationships the opposite is true, he has to work and earn money (more then her (this is also why statistically single women out earn single men but married men significantly out earn married and single women, because they need to be the provider (which is what women want and generally men are happy with it as well as it
gives him purpose) to provide for the family (which is expensive and the more children you have (historically quite a lot) the more money it takes, he has to be a protector and be the one to manage the family primary decision maker etc which is a lot of additional responsibility. For women they don't really get more responsibilities in the relationship and they tend to get more resources so its less investment and thus for them its easier to "commit". So that's why men are far more picky about whom they commit to, again its biology and their is nothing wrong with it just as their is nothing wrong with a woman being more picky about whom she has sex with.
Lets put it this way, do you enjoy the bachelorette life style? How many guys do you think live it up? Its not really that many guys, we don't sleep around as much as a lot of women think (in fact studies have shown that men have on average the same amount of partners as women have). Plus we are people, we want intimacy and a connection so again, that's why we are statistically happier when married then when not (also married men live longer).
@hellionthesagereborn wow thank you so much for the insight, that gives me so much hope for the future!!! I thought guys resented being the provider, I try not to ask for anything because some people I know make it seem like I'm pulling teeth when I ask for a favor. Or they hold it over my head and remind me so I try not to ask for help even if it'd make my life easier... I noticed that guys think that I don't want or need them because of that. I don't know, I just want to bother them or depend on them because it makes me worry that they won't follow through or will get mad if I ask.
Well some do but not for the reason you think. Its mostly because in todays society we are no longer balanced. See previously we had our role to play and women had theirs, now we have our role to play but society tells women they don't have to do their part, in fact it likes to tell both men and women that women don't even need men. So some guys do not like being the provider not because they particularly dislike it (as I said its instinctive for us to be the provider, that's our contribution, women birth and nurture, men protect and provide its a good system where both parties work together offsetting each others weaknesses as an individual with their own strengths thus making a much more effective and strong pair, more so then they could be individually.) but because currently women generally speaking do not appreciate it. Its expected its just something men are "suppose to do". Previously men where respected for it, they where rewarded for it, traditionally women doted on him
went out of their way to please him and make him happy (our society states its because "oppression/sexism" or what have you, incorrectly) because she knew that he was out working his butt off for her (historically pre 1900s the 100 hour work week was standard (just imagine the toll that takes on a person (a man since the vast majority of women did not want to do that so it was the man doing the work the vast majority of the time) and their kids, that if it was necessary he would fight and die for them so it was her way of giving back. Now we are told that we are the bad guy, we "oppressed" women or what have and that expecting this treatment from a woman (Just little things like cooking or being their for him) is "sexist" and that women don't exist to please their husbands/boyfriends (ironic since we should try to please our partners, why wouldn't we?) but
they still expect the same gender roles that they claim are sexist and shouldn't be applied to them absolutely should be applied to men. For instance about 80% of women surveyed said that men should pay for dates, fair enough, but what is she giving him? In fact a dating coach mentioned this to an audience of women, asked them if the man should pay, every woman said yes that they would not even consider being with a man who would not pay. Then he asked if a man, husband or boyfriend, was entitled to sex, again every one of them said no that it was her body her choice and she should not be pressured or obligated or what have you. He then pointed out that how can you say that your entitled to his money but then claim that your not entitled to give anything back. This is the divide that has pushed men to the point where they no longer want the responsibilities that are expected of him, because if women don't have to have them why should he?
So some men reject these expectations because they are tired of being expected to do all of this but then not get anything in return (and believe me, being appreciated goes a long way and guys really don't ask for much, sex (if your in a relationship) gives intimacy and makes him feel wanted, her being nurturing really means a lot because guys use their relationship with women to deal with their emotional needs and issues (they may not say anything (guys don't socialize their emotions, they deal with them through actions usually) but it means a lot), her cooking/cleaning shows that she is thinking about him and knows that he does a lot and wants to give something back etc. So when guys don't get those things they just stop seeing a point in taking all of those responsibilities (no one likes being taken for granted and right now it seems socially acceptable to do that with guys) when no one appreciates it. So yes you will run across guys who resent that role, however
if you show your appreciation, show that your going to be invested in him and his needs, a man will not just want but need to do the same. Obviously some people are just, for lack of a better term, assholes and its important not to let him take advantage of you, again obviously, but in general if you do those things, you make him feel like he matters that you care that your their for him, yes men will gladly do these things for you.
@hellionthesagereborn my mother is a successful business woman and married a gardener (my father). just a random addition to hopefully brighten your day.
@SirBunBun and? Ancedotal evidence is irrelevant. I survived a car accident when I wasn't wearing my seat belt, does that mean that you should never wear a seatbelt? No, it just means I got lucky. I mean, I'm happy that your parents worked out but statistically that is not a likely scenario, if their is a substantial difference in incomes the probability of divorce is higher, obviously its not set in stone, obviously its not a guarantee that they will divorce, people vary, but we also have certain trends that we follow, this is one of them.
@hellionthesagereborn I want going to defy statistics man
@SirBunBun you where not what? You are not trying to defy statistics? If that is what you are saying then that's fine I'm just pointing out that one time does not mean every time and the most common counter argument to statistics or arguments in general is by brining the one time things did not conform to those statistics which isn't logical. A lot of people try to bet on that anecdotal evidence when they have a high probability of failure and they end up suffering because of it. That's why I pointed it out. Also being aware that this is what happens will allow people to avoid the issue or if that is not an option be aware of it so they can try and work around it i. e. the woman being more understanding that the reason why she feels resentful has nothing to do with what her husband is doing and thus let her move past it etc..
Yeah, I think most are. I'm not. I'm used to earning more than the men I date, or even dating men who aren't working at all.
Sorry love that just means you took the bait. You don't get brownie points for that
It means that I don't mind stay at home husbands and fathers.
Of course. It's no different than men mostly wanting to marry younger attractive women
yes i think most are looking for at least one of those
It is true ! and I believe its the differences of the behavioral nature between the sexes.
Most women I know are the opposite.
any of those women making 6 figures and dating a guy who might be making significantly less?
Not six figures... jeez I wish. Nobody I know makes that much except the VPs at my company.
A lot of college-educated women I know marry blue collar guys. Often the wives end up being the main breadwinners for a period of time. Or the guys give up trying to get jobs and start some kind of side business, like home improvement, that doesn't supply a steady income or insurance benefits.
That's what I mean.
Sure.
Most men and women are hypergamous.
are you sure men are?
... have you not seen the number of men who post essays online complaining about how their girlfriends are golddigging cunts who won't get off the couch to find a job? Before planning really complex play-by-plays on how to destroy them to save money?
nope not really.
oh?
Be sure to google various forums/sites about 'men's rights'. Many of which involve complaints about 'money hungry cunts' and how impossible it is to find a woman who can pay for herself.
(which would imply that the man is seeking a hypergamous relationship.)
im really just looking for a rational discussion about this. Not looking to just argue
nor am I.
Hence why I told you about a few examples of why I believe it's not only women who wish to date/marry 'up'. The more easily accessible ones that are online, since you seemed doubtful of my opinion.
So just check out those sites/forums and let me know what you think.
What is wrong with a guy who wants a woman to pull her own weight? That isn't the same as a woman who expects a man to be of a higher social or financial value as her.
One is looking for equality, the other is looking to have her cake and eat it too.
@freakyzeaky There's nothing wrong with it at all.
It would make zero sense for a man (or woman) to seek someone who they'll have to be a financial/emotional support for.
How is a man who is 'supporting a gold digger' and wants her to "pay for herself' trying to move up a social level? At very best he's wanting someone of his own level but settling for someone lower
@johnboymuscles Never said that men who 'support golddiggers' are trying to move up a social level?
Erm... yes you did... Many of which involve complaints about 'money hungry cunts' and how impossible it is to find a woman who can pay for herself.
(which would imply that the man is seeking a hypergamous relationship.)
@johnboymuscles I'm glad that you can quote things I've said previously.
Too bad you continue having a hard time understanding them.
Cute how you deleted your original message hahahaha
look again:
s8.postimg.org/.../...ure_1262017_13505_PM.bmp.jpg
hahahahahh
Cute that you made the effort to screenshot and upload and share a link.
@johnboymuscles thanks. I feel like it's worth the minimal amount of effort to keep half-assed tangential arguments under control. :)
Or you could just post non-contradictory posts to begin with? Just an idea cutie
@johnboymuscles 'non-contradictory posts'
... what in the fuck?
I'm glad that you can quote things I've said previously.
Too bad you continue having a hard time understanding them.
Kayla - That might be what you think they meant. It's a lot more complicated then that and men don't care about "marrying up". It's about being taken advantage of, "taken for a ride" so to speak, I know that's an older quote most people don't get these days. If a woman puts in her share of effort to the relationship and the estate of the family, a guy is not going to complain about her not paying her way.
Most of those guys you are talking about are complaining about women who refuse to do anything, including work or working on the house and keep demanding more from the sofa with a bowl full of bon bons (which are really good btw).
Let's not argue. I know a good many of those guys who are on the most common MRA posts and I have an insight. I'm not flaming you. K?
@Charleslvajr ok, true.
MRA guys aside, though, most socially inept guys I know who are in LTR and working full-time wouldn't be interested in dating unemployed/couchpotato women either.
I think hypergamous dating is neither exclusive to either gender, nor is anything wrong with it in the first place. It would be an idiotic move to 'date down', in my opinion. I wouldn't date someone without a job or a post-secondary education, either.
Hypergamy becomes a problem when a person monkey braches and leaves a trail of broken hearts and suffering in their self-centered and manipulative climb to the top.
And again, many men don't care about dating "up". About the same or slightly less is fine. I personally don't think about status when I date. I don't care if she is a hairdresser, a nurse, a lawyer, or an administrator. I don't care if she made 40k or 80k. Doesn't matter to me at all. I don't think to myself about how my station in life is going to rise after marriage. Doesn't even cross my mind.
@freakyzeaky I've never known a guy to call his buddies with a line even approximating "... and you wouldn't believe what she does for a living..." I've heard plenty of women say that.
Not most but it's definitely more common than men marrying up
Yes, but like with everything woman, uncomfortable truth needs to be rationalized hidden or denied.
That's some fake MGTOW bullshit.
Someone had to say MGTOW 😂 xD :D
@Unit1 well, they bring it up constantly so I feel like I should be able to make fun of them just as often.
Seems only fair :>
@Unit1 j’avoue, yes.
https://i.imgur.com/OX0rWkG.png
Yup. I'm sure MGTOW brought it upon themselves.
No one stays with someone they think is beneath them, but hypergamy is an actual sociological term, meaning women marry up for social status specifically, which is something that has happened and been observed in every society, gender equal or no, even back to the extremely gender equal hunter-gatherers (even though they didn't really "marry", but you catch my drift). In fact, the hunter-gatherers may have even been matriarchal at times, with a woman leading, and women STILL were hypergamous (we know this because of genetic information that shows that relatively few men reproduced at this time). Hypergamy is a natural human condition. Not saying people can't overcome their programming, but it's still their programming.
However, the inverse to this is that men try to marry women more attractive than them. Even though there's not really a word for that.
@WhistleForTheChoir
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@Astoriana Okay, then just stay incorrect and ignorant, doesn't hurt my feelings.
@WhistleForTheChoir really? Because it certainly appears to
@Astoriana Nice try lol just a little too transparent.
Also helps that you essentially just said, "Really? Because [me being incorrect and ignorant] certainly appears to [hurt your feelings]."
@WhistleForTheChoir you wrote me a novel with some completely unprovable pseudoscientific bullshit, and now you’re getting all up in your feelings about how I won’t listen to your preachings.
@Astoriana It's social sciences, so ya know, not really science. But it is accepted terminology to explain a widely dispersed phenomenon, even by feminist thinkers who add the important caveat that it's necessary to view hypergamy through the context of a patriarchal society. And I wasn't trying to have an argument at first, just was pointing out it wasn't "bull-shit", which requires a little elaboration. I'm sorry you have a problem reading not-really-long paragraphs.
And you're trying to have an argument about someone else's feelings lol, so who has really lost the thread of what their original point was here?
@WhistleForTheChoir
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Cited source for a feminist on hypergamy > "Human Evolution: a Philosophical Anthropology" by Mary Maxwell, page 162. Sorry, took me a little bit to find the page, but I knew I had it around here somewhere.
@WhistleForTheChoir you are so boring
@Astoriana Yeah, I guess knowing what you're talking about IS pretty boring isn't it. Good one lol
Your pride in your own ignorance is much more exciting ^_^
@WhistleForTheChoir
Why do you feel the need to correct people you find ignorant on views that have absolutely zero bearing on your life or even theirs?
@Astoriana Am I allowed to type more than one sentence or would that be too much reading for you?
Short version: The only thing worse than someone who is right and can't let it go, is someone who is wrong and can't let it go.
@WhistleForTheChoir ugh, you and your pretentious ilk bore the shit out of me
Smart attractive women are.
Aren't we all more or less of hypergamous?
No, men don't care about money or status. Men are more focused on the physical women are focused on the physical too but also on wealth and status which is what hypergamy reffers to. Its nothing to be ashamed of, at least no more then it would be for men to be ashamed that they like attractive women, so long as it doesn't get to the point of disregarding them as a human being (i. e. gold digging/womanizer).
Many are. But this isn't a bad thing.
Why isn't it a bad thing?
Because having high standards is good.
No at least not in my area
It's not true
How so?
I know lots of girls that date below them
Looks like you aren't one of them
Exactly
So therefore you are hypergamous
I guess if you want to place me in a corner
You just proved it in my other question lol.
Yeah so
yes a lot of women in my country are like that
Yes I believe most women are hypergamous
It's obviously true.