



It really depends on what you define as "femininity". Every person has a different understanding of the word, and depending on what region of the world you come from, the answers will be different due to cultural differences.
For me, what's really eye-catching is when I see a woman hard-at-work or really focusing on something. She could be wearing a suit or she could be wearing a blouse, she could be going through a pile of legal documents or she could be gardening, or she could even just be washing dishes at a restaurant, but she'd be absolutely beautiful in my eyes. Even if she was covered in grease from working at a car shop.
There's something about that combination of hardworking+steadfastness+determination that's just breathtaking to me. Where I'm from (South-East Asia), these are traits that all adults are expected to have, but when a woman shows them it only makes her even more beautiful and desirable.
I've known a few people who believe that being feminine means showing off your assets to get attention, and I've known people who believe that being a "girly-girl" means doing their make up and going to parties and concerts all the time. However, if you're telling me that you, as an adult, don't clean your own room, your own home, you don't even do your own dishes because it's "too icky", that's not being feminine or girly. That's called being a little kid. I, as an adult, am looking for an adult partner, not some immature brat that practically needs me to tie their shoelaces.
P. S. Aside from the whole shoelaces thing, I personally know 4 people that fit the above description. They're good people, but I swear to God, they can be the most immature and childish women I've ever known. And one of them is older than me and never uses anything but paper plates because doing dishes is, and I quote, "just, like, SO not me. That 's something that boyfriends are for."
She was also between relationships at the time.
When my Granddad got shot and died in the line of duty, my Grandma took whatever savings they had and started a catering business so that she could work hard and raise 6 kids by herself. A little while after my uncle became Police Chief, he got injured and was in the hospital for a few months. My aunt took on an extra job at a restaurant to pay the bills while raising my older cousin, essentially working 2 jobs and working practically all day and all night.
That's why I'm more attracted to hard-working women. I'm looking for someone that'll have my back when I need it, a partner to help me raise a family.
My worst nightmare is waking up one day, realizing that I have 3 kids instead of 2. Not because I'm against having more than 2 kids (I'm actually fine with having more than 2), but because I'll have realized that I baby my wife so much that she might as well BE a kid.
It is absolutely normal from the biological point of view. The more feminine you are, the more attractive you are to most men because you tend to accentuate their feminine features much more. For example, you are very attractive in your photo, but would probably be less so if you had short hair and were dressed like a guy.
It does not mean that every woman has to be super feminine. In fact, it can be a huge turn off, at least in my opinion, if the woman is so feminine that she is unwilling to go hiking, travelling, getting her hands dirty alone or together with her SO, or run outside without makeup and carefully done hair... If she needs her trendy handbag instead of a nice backpack on any given day or if she must carry several kg of makeup kits, brushes, lipsticks etc. at all times with her - such women drive me absolutely insane. The perfect combination is when the woman is not afraid of her own looks without makeup or perfectly done hair; when she can behave as she wants and not how the society wants her to; but also when she can transform herself into a princess if and when such occasion requires it (a particular event). I have been with such women and known many more in my life, and to me they are the most attractive ones.
I think that some men and boys are too and the following is the reason why I feel this way ! I was eating in a restaurant and this boy came up to me and said - I like the dress you are wearing - ! I thanked him for the compliment too ! Later a relative of mine took me to our mechanic ! I had to go into my mechanics shop for the mechanic there had to do some work on the vehicle in the garage ! So I went into the garage ( wearing this same dress too ) and all of a sudden the mechanic named Johnnie says to me - Miss Dawn - ( and I turned away and whispered to myself , that is spooky , for I am calling myself - MissDawn - at some of my dating sites of which Johnnie did not know this ) so I heard him using some bad language and he said the name Johnnie too ) ! So I asked him - is it Johnnie , John or Johnathon - to which he replied it's Johnnie - ! That is the nickname he wants me to call him ! I have never received so much male attention do to that dress I was wearing either but I love the attention from that boy and Johnnie too ! Thanks
The beauty in the two sexes, and coming together in fun or in life, is recognizing the differences, and appreciating them. There is a huge, fluid, infinite sliding scale of sexuality, and it would be inappropriate to label everyone either 'masculine' or 'feminine'. We all know what those extremes of the archetypes look like. No need to define them. But most people fall somewhere in between (between the sexes, or within their own gender). Men are attracted to the female form and her personality and biological differences, and women as well (the inverse). If we didn't enjoy these differences we would never partner up, and the species would cease to exist.
So I know that's probably not what you're asking. You just want to know if guys like 'girly girls' and so on. So they can answer that part. I'm just reminding that biologically, we are meant to be different. It is the combination that makes the most of, and makes us stronger, genetically.
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I want a girl who knows how to be a girl!
I feel like in any other era this question would have a very obvious answer, which is of course men want feminine women. I don't need a woman to be strong because no matter how strong she may be she will NEVER be as strong as myself. I don't need a woman who acts like a man because I AM a man. So a masculine woman cannot give me anything because the best she can offer is a discount version of myself. She can however offer something I can never have which is femininity. She can be nurturing in a way that I cannot provide for myself, she can instill in me a sense of purpose (men are built to provide and protect women and their family. This gives them a reason to strive and a reason to work hard because now they have some one to make these sacrifices for) and importance (because biologically women are more important then men due to them controlling reproduction, specifically they choose men they think are worthy and they control the speed at which we reproduce. If she chooses the man she is saying he is important enough that she wants his genes to be passed on and that she trusts in his value enough that she thinks he will pass on the best of himself to her offspring (that's a very big deal). So yes femininity is desired, doesn't mean she can't like masculine things, but it does mean that she will have a certain outlook and a certain behavior that can only be done by women.
In such a day and age, women that are confident and independent but also feminine in ways which can be described as gentile and just more caring from instincts then men. As an example the feminine women will pay attention to the public troll while holding onto his man's hand, giving them the attention the troll wants but confident enough to face him while the man would ignore the troll and be more aggressive, walking faster to avoid the troll, perhaps embarrassed at being put in such a situation beside her. Women that are confident to not worry about small insecurities, independent to not rely on men in public situations, but also privately that are able to use their kindness and good feminine side to soften and give sense and a greater vision to a naturally more easily agitated man, that also won't be afraid to say something that may offend their partner. This is my opinion. Feminine in a sense that they are just different to men in a relationship or can offer something that the man doesn't have in their lives.
Yeah, men want women not women pretending to be men or women who look like a man. Women are not men and women don't actually get muscle like a guy does, it's extremely hard to do naturally or the women uses steroids. Now, femininity does not in any way mean dressing in all pink and being super girly with the long nails and hating getting down and dirty. It means dressing and wearing make up (If you want) in a way that enhances your beauty and makes you look like a women. Wearing the proper clothing that fits your body, wearing the proper make up (and proper amount) that makes you look beautiful and not like a whore or like you're wearing a mask.
Yes...
we are attracted to femininity like girls are attracted to masculinity.
Even a woman who likes fitness and body building (of course not exaggerated) can appear very feminine in perception of a guy.
I personally prefer the very feminine self-confident bitch type, who is elegant in her body language and articulation, knows her high value of attractiveness, doesn't behave like a teen girl and I feel she can be rude/aggressive if I would treat her like a prick. Maybe because such a person raised me. lol
On the other hand I'm sure that other guys have different perception about femininity, maybe even the majority prefers the girly girl type.
Maybe the question is more relevant "what for type of femininity is the most attractive for guys?". Because every femininity type is attractive in bigger or lesser extent for men.
"what for type of femininity is the most attractive for guys?"
That could be an interesting question to ask...
Well, think about it this way: Men and women are biologically different. Nature made it to be that both fulfill different roles that complement each other. If we didn't and were identical, we could be hermaphrodites like snails.
So from that position with men and women being biologically different - it seems to be ideal for each side to look for a partner that complements them the best, right? So if a person is rather androgynous in looks and behaviour, they will be more likely to look for a partner who is as well. But since most people are rather typical in their behaviour related to their gender, they will be attracted to the opposite.
Or in short: The more masculine the man, the more feminine he wants his woman.
I think most men are - femininity attracts masculinity and vice versa. My boyfriend certainly is attracted to it. I have embraced my femininity and the roles that come with it since I was a child. My mother taught me how to be good at sowing, cooking and baking, putting together an outfit, doing the laundry, being polite, taking care of children, and comforting a man.
My friends in school encouraged me to learn how to apply makeup, pick the right dress, to do my hair, and to flirt. I love flowers, the colors pink and (especially) purple, and am quiet, submissive, and sweet. I also want to be a housewife when I get married. It makes me happy.
I am not attracted to feminine men, and men usually aren't attracted to masculine girls. We were made this way, and there is a reason for it. Besides - I think relationships where the girl is very feminine and the man is undoubtably masculine last the longest and are the most loving.
Men tend to be attracted to beauty, first and foremost, and usually feminine women are looking more pretty, also men tend to dislike the idea of dating a woman who behave more masculine than them, because it's like she is the one who is the man in the house.
tvtropes.org/.../MenAreStrongWomenArePretty
tvtropes.org/.../NoGuyWantsAnAmazon
Not necessarily. I heard this study once that talked about the feminine and masculine spectrum. Some men behave 90% masculine and 10% feminine. Some men are 60% masculine and 40% feminine. And some women are the same way in their respective femininity.
The study argued that the spectrum of two people should balance out. For example, a man that is 75% masculine and 25% feminine should be with a woman who is 25% masculine and 75% feminine.
So for someone like me who is probably 70% masculine and 30% feminine. I'm looking for a girl who does have some more masculine traits or behaviors. I like a girl who dresses up nice but hates the color pink. She also needs to be level headed and can make decisions but at the same time cries in movies. A balance that some guys aren't necessarily into but that I am. The woman featured in these photos is not a woman I would be attracted to.
So it just depends on the
Feminine is nice, but not simpering. Anyway I think your relationship coach is wrong. I go to high-performance driving events and any woman who shows up to drive gets all the attention she could want. Watch Sam Shepherd and Barbara Hershey in the movie "The Right Stuff". They race on horseback and she gives him all he can handle. Or watch Nicole Kidman as Martha Gellhorn in "Gellhorn". Not very feminine but sexy as hell. Weak men are afraid of strong women.
So be yourself. If a flannel shirt, jeans, and boots is your style, stick with it and meet the guy who will love you for it.
Depends on your Man, I personally swing more towards the Tom Boy end of the spectrum. Also you have to account for upbringing. I was Raised alongside a sister who is 3 years older than me.
Men raised with brothers don't learn that girls their age are not as angelic as their tinder profile shows. Girls burp, girls fart, girls make a mess. When you love a girl even though she's in her PJs, unbathed, greasy hair n all, and you still love her.
Girly girls are better aesthetically but a Tom boy will eventually steal my heart ♥️
I think I am attracted to feminine girls. But not to a degree where all her mind is centered about her body and make up and accessories and dresses. and nothing in her brain except being pretty Barbie and seductive, and enjoys attracting guys and controlling them by their lust. I think I really dislike those girls, and can never get in relationship with them. have sex with them, ok wow hot.
but no we can't connect I like smart girls more, girls that are intellectual and less egoistic , educated, college grandaunt, focused and responsible.
I'm attracted to extroverted women with strong personalities, but a woman whose demeanor radiates femininity is still alluring af.
That's not something she can fake, it's just who she is.
A lot of guys want a version of themselves but with breasts, not a woman whose femininity complements his masculinity.
I've also heard that "you tend to be attracted to what you've had success with." To a degree I can see that, but I've never been attracted to skinny girls, I prefer a woman who has a bit of muscle. I don't want to feel like I'm gonna break her, ya know?
Wow thank God we have professors telling the truth. Of course there are many variables here. Some masculine men like masculine women and some feminine men like feminine women... but... in most cases manly men like us a soft, petite, feminine, womanly traits and features. And in my experience real feminine women love thems an aggressive, confident, Alpha male. Just because culture has changed like it has in only a short time, doesn't mean that our DNA and Epigenetics will change that fast. We've had these monkey instincts for thousands of years and we are stuck in a world where the ability to interface is incompatible
Yep. I noticed that strong confident men are usually more attracted toward feminine women, cause they have the sweet side they lack, but beta men on the other side want tomboyish women not because they are attracted to them but because they can’t even protect themselves so how can they take care of a feminine fragile woman. The more you act like a strong tomboyish indépendant woman the more losers you’ll attract but the more you take care of your look and act like a Princesse the more you will attract men who can treat you like one
I agree with your update: "I would like to point out that just because a woman is feminine and a girly girl does not automatically mean she’s weak, shallow, or an airhead, not by any means!"
But... the question is what's "feminine" in what part of the world? I've seen what's considered feminine in other cultures and I think... "no way, not for me", for instance, girls with unibrows, and hair down to the floor. Or lots of piercings. Doesn't do it for me, but for someone else it could be the height of femininity. So... I can answer that if a girl fits what I like as feminine, I'll obviously be more attracted to her.
These things exist on a continuum. Most people have both sets of traits to some degree.
Every woman and man has to embrace who she or he is, and not unduly change themselves to appease other people or fit preconceived ideas.
I don't mind women with some masculine traits, provided they're still likeable people. I like a woman that can stick up for herself and is fiery, which can be considered masculine. However, I don't like overbearing or charmless crude women.
I actually thinks it depends more on the type of guy some prefer shy, other prefer athletic , delicate , mean , sweet, childish, mature, intellectual, tomboyish, adventurous , best budy type, independent or codependent.
The myth of every guy has the same mindset it basically that, it has a lot of variants and the same way some womens are attracted to bad boys and others to shy guys.
It basically personal taste, just be yourself and naturally somebody will come up.
Of course you have to try looking for someone because sitting at home, will be pretty hard for you get someone unless it's the food delivery guy, ups or something like that.
Let's put it on a scale of 1-10, 10 being complete tomboy/bodybuilder chick and 1 being the prissiest woman you can imagine. I am attracted to women in the 4-7 range. This means she can dress up and be girly when the occasion calls, can be EXTREMELY tough when needs, takes care of herself and her health. Her everyday appearance would probably be athletic wear/casual and not much makeup. Too much, either tomboy or priss, turns me off.
100% True. Men want women who are feminine and women want men who are masculine. It's biological. Having a tomboy partner feels more like having a guy friend than a woman. Opposites attract when it comes to biology. And yes, being feminine does not mean she is weak or oppressed or any other claims haters make.
How do I decide if I am feminine enough? I do have traits of both sides. For example, I do weightlifting, have a job in IT, I am not afraid to have different opinions than other people and many more. I am also into anything beauty (makeup, hair fashion, house decoration) and tend to be very tolerant and suportive and many more.
Nope, you’re just a well balanced woman. You’re indépendant and have your shit together but you also didn’t loose your femininity. You’re actually just like me, I also love programming, I do kickboxing, but i also wear very feminine cloths, but when I have a boyfriend i sometimes act like a damsel in distress to jerk off his hero instinct and makes him feel like a man ( like asking him to open a bottle of water cause it’s too hard, then I thank him with a sweet smile as if I needed him) while I could easily use a hack to open this bottle of water lmao
It's really basic advertising. If you advertise that you are/want to be a girly girl, then you will attract men who want the femininity. The opposite is true.
I personally wouldn't have any girl who did not enjoy wearing a dress and (at least on occasion) style her hair. Makeup always makes a girl a refined lady—if they do it right. Sloppy rouge won't do it!
Femininity has a lot more complex meaning. just for looks if a women in feminine and the mentality wise if she is strong and opinionated there would be a frequent clashes between him and her. You want to be agreeable but not too agreeable. There is a certain things to it.
Really depends on the guy I personally could care less how feminine you are. I have found to be able to relate and get along with girls who are at least a little more tomboyish I guess u could call it in my experience those woman are more standoffish and isn't afraid to get in your face and fight you
Obviously yes, was there really anyone thinking straight men are attracted to masculinity? I find femininity very attractive, doesn't mean I think hours of makeup etc is what's classed as feminine. Just being a girl, not trying to act like a man like so many girls do these days.
Every man been say yeah. Anf i say fuck that lol. Feminine is annoying as hel most of yhe time, don't get me wrong i can see the good but middle blance is always the best.
Plus most people i have had crushes on have been tomboys so... And i am feminine my self sort of. But meh.
Honestly every guy is different and say a 100% yes comes from a person who has no clue what there on about or over exgratted af
All men are different in there taste of women. There is not a man alive that will turn away a woman who has no a little black dress, nice pair of pumps, smokey eyes, and her hair down. But do you want that day after day? I say hell no give me a woman who loves a pair of Jean's as well as a dress. What is it that is said variety is spice of life
I would say that a majority of men prefer feminine girls, but there's still a strong minority who prefer tomboys.

Men are way, way, WAY more individualistic than women. We don't all agree on what's hot and what's not. Ask five guys, you'll get at least six different opinions. Ask five women and you'll get one opinion. Maybe two.
ROFLMAO! of COURSE men are more attracted to feminine women; that's how a society DEFINES feminine.
"adjective
1.
having qualities or an appearance traditionally associated with women, especially delicacy and prettiness."
"traditionally associated with" is about cultural norms.
I like women that get their shit done. I don't really like to assign gender roles to activities like the gym or anything like that.
Most girls who fit into the whole feminine aesthetic i usually find more physically attractive but they usually come off as fake to me.
I would much rather be with a girl that i can relate with in the types of activities that we do.
Feminine + useful. Y'know she's girly but not a helpless child waiting to be rescued.
Seems like modern women don't believe this is possible. Useless princess, or shaven headed cunt with a wrench sticking out of her back pocket who's covered in grease all the time. Thats it! No other options.
Yes. But not... prissy... I tend to really like a girl that can get her hands dirty, work, gets out there and does stuff, but then can clean up, understands how to use makeup (amplify, not cake), and can wear heels and skirts/dresses. There is always a need for balance.
I think what we perceive as "masculinity" and "femininity" are like magnetic poles or personality... and aren't necessarily traits that *must* be assigned to one particular gender. As a girly boy who's basically straight, I'm mostly attracted to boyish girls.
I have no problems with a woman that can fix a flat or change her own oil, wears flannel and blue jeans. And don't cry too much if they break a nail.
Cause most can still dress up and look like a lady, maybe they won't want to, but there is still a woman under there.
Depends on the person.
Personal can't I stand passive people that tries to show they are week individuals that must fitt in to be one in the bunch obsessive usage of makeup alternative reasons relies on others doing thing's... and so on what usually fallow those that tries to be feminine.
In a lot of cases yes, however that doesn't mean that tomboys can't be sexy or attractive either, in their own way, it's just different (ie they are still female). The good thing is there are a lot of people in the world, all with different tastes and likes/dislikes.
It totally depends on the guy in question. Personally I like it, but it's not something I see as that important. Just average is good. Good values and a personality that works well with mine are more important, I know that for experience, my ex was very feminine but we ended up not getting along because our core values were conflicting and our priorities in life were opposite
Being girly (the flowers, dresses, pink stuff) can be beautiful. But sometimes I feel they associate femininity with being submissive and quite (prim and proper) and etc. And that's not how it's going down for some of us, haha.
If that's what floats their boats lol.
Well women are by nature submissive (hence women having rape fantasies (I believe it was over 70% of women surveyed stated they had that as a fantasy)), but being submissive is different then being a doormat. You can't claim a woman doesn't want to be submissive while women themselves demand that men be aggressive and assertive. Those cannot coexist, one must yield to the other so if women are the assertive one, the pursuer, the one making the decisions then by extension the man cannot be doing those things. So by women's nature they want to be submissive but they want to be submissive to the right man i. e. your not submitting to every single person you see, your not being submissive to a man who mistreats you, but rather you are looking for a leader, some one who will act and assert their dominance in a way that is beneficial to you as the woman. Obviously not all women want that but the majority do.
Hence nothing, tons of men have fantasies of and like getting dominated too. In many ways might I add, did you forget about cucks too? I'd like to see that study more importantly the sample size. It's not completely different, matter of fact the only difference is the level of submission. I didn't claim none of that, you did. I just said that isn't how it is for SOME OF US. By definition they can coexist (meaning same time OR place) And while it may not be able to happen at the same time they can still be able to switch roles (you forgot about switches?) easily if that's what they wish. And lastly women WANT to be submissive? By nature? In general no I can't see that being true. Certainly that's just crazy to me. I'm sure everyone has been and probably will continue to be submissive at one point in their lives whether sexually or non sexually, and whether if they have, want or need to but I digress a little. I'm skeptical on what makes you believe you can speak on the "majority" of women. Maybe majority just was a decent partner and for a relationship to be 50/50? What you're saying just sounds like some misogynistic fluff, I'll just take it with a tiny grain of salt and continue to stand on what I said and think.
Please forgive me as I am an old fart and I cannot keep up with "cucks", "switches", "subs", "doms" and the rest of the labels that are out there today, Why is everything so complicated, I fear that if I met a woman in a bar tonight I would have to bring a sex manual with me to to figure out what she is talking about... HELP!!!
I'll gladly explain. The topic of sex and it's many forms of it I see it as a little hobby to learn about and partake in. So basically a cuck is a guy who likes to see his wife get fucked (that's what I usually see) but ofcourse she can do other humiliating things to him. Some cucks say they just like seeing their women taking control and making themselves feel good no matter how insulting it may be to them. A switch (👸🏽hey there) usually means a person that can be both dominate (a dom) and submissive (a sub) They literally switch. No worries I think the kink community especially in regards to devoted doms, subs and etc is still a little underground. Probably meet 10 "average" women before you meet one who's like that. Or more or less depending where you live.
So basically you don't get horny or want to have sex?
There are easy, more relaxed women out there that don't require such tests or as many. There's still hope.
Beats the current died streaks biker tattoo angry victim mentality sjw types.
However like someone that doesn't mind getting a bit dirty or sweaty. I like the outdoors and camping.
The high maintenance arm candy girl does nothing for me. No thanks. Im a look good on paper guy, don't need anyone draining my savings or screwing up my mortgage.
To be honest, those in the images seem more girlish than feminine, like the types who would go to slumber parties, I tend to prefer one who is more womanly, mature and confident.
Yes, it's true in general, but it doesn't mean you have to go full "Barbie Doll" complete with pink Corvette either. It just means turn the dial a couple of notches towards femininity, and men will appreciate it.
I like a woman to be feminine enough but not too feminine to the point of having to be constantly pampered, someone who can be hang out with the boys on occasions ( football games, car racing & video gaming ) but still love to dress up.
The average guy doesn't wanna date another guy. (Unless they're gay, and that's ok.) Guys like girls. So yes, this should be an obvious thing. If you act like 'one of the guys', you'll be seen as 'one of the guys'.
I’m ONLY attracted to feminine girls, both in style and characteristics 😍👗👠💃🏻💄 If I wanted masculine girls or tomboys, why don’t I just date the real deal: men? 🤔😒
Speaking for myself ABSOLUTELY. I want a GIRL, not a guy. I LOVE when a girl likes being a girl and all the girly things that go along with it. It's one of the most attractive parts for me.
That's definitely true. Women are attractive because they're women... females are attractive because they're females. So, possessing any masculine traits isn't attractive at all. This doesn't apply only on a physical level, but alson on personality & attitude. It's also important to point out that too much of it (like being overacting or exaggerating things) turns a man off. Just embrace your femininity and act GENUINELY based on it.
Personally I like women to have some feminine aspects about them but they don't need to be like a beacon of femininity or anything. Though that would be fine as well.
Every man probably and woman probably has a different idea in the definition of masculinity and feminity.
Like some person said black hair is a masculine trait. Lol. (I highly disagree).
Feminine women are certainly refreshing to see. its like a special kind of allure that just captivates. Always take time to notice it mostly because its rare to see girls do that
Yes they are, however that doesn't fit into everyone id say. Im not especially girly and yet I have a boyfriend despite there being girlier girls almost everywhere.
I don't mind tomboys, but I draw the line somewhere.
If they are literally presenting themselves as masculine in every way, then no, completely unattractive. They can be a mixture of both or just completely feminine.
I think most men like a woman to be feminine to a certain point.
At the same time she can't be afraid to get her hands dirty when needed.
As a general statement I would say that is correct, of course there will always be exceptions
Personal preferences and interpretations will also play a part in this though
I like a figuratively girly woman. But nothing is hotter than a chick nerdier or more mechanically enclined than I am! Girls don't need to play dumb, that shit is hot!
I would rather date or be in a relationship with a woman that is a blend of feminine and tomboy.
I would say that is likely an accurate assumption, especially in 2019 when nobody wants to look at someone and be unsure of what gender they are.
I don't know about other but personally yeah! Absolutely. I would love myself a girl with actual feminine qualities unlike those fake qualities that are projected by today's western societies
yeah i would say generally they are but of course there's always exceptions of guys who just like tomboys or other types
That depends on your definition of feminine. I am attracted to strong women mostly who are athletic and their personality is strong not meek. They don't give a shit about what society thinks about them. Even a woman in uniform. Hell yeah. 😁
For me it is the truth, I like feminine girls/women more, but I think that's different for other men/boys
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