Would this be ethical?

[Gwenhwyfar]

My friend suggested sending a team of commandos into Switzerland, kidnapping Vladimir Putin’s girlfriend and children and holding them hostage in exchange for ending the war in Ukraine.

The needs of the many (the world and the people of Ukraine) versus the needs of the few (Putin’s relatively innocent family).

If this is ethical, would it actually work?

@nightdrot I’m mentioning you cause I respect your insights into politics

Yes

No

[nightdrot]

First of all, thank you so much for your kind compliment. That is exceptionally generous of you to say and is much appreciated.

As to the question, the answer is pretty straightforward. Would it be ethical? By any objective moral standard it would not be ethical and in fact would likely constitute a violation of international law.

However, the point is academic. International relations are not - as we are seeing at the moment - about ethics. International law, for its part, is honored mostly in the breech. It is a sort of grand quid pro quo among the nations of the world - "You don't do it to us. We won't do it to you." It is effective only insofar as nations are willing to abide by and enforce it as there is no authority above states with the ability to impartially judge and enforce the law. (There is an International Court of Justice, but again, it lacks the power to enforce its will. See also its recent ruling against Russia - in a case for which the Russians did not even bother to show up.)

The guiding principles of international law are best summed up in the following quotes:

From Theodore Roosevelt: "World peace comes not from human kindness or moral restraint, but from balanced power; equilibriums of force restraining the selfish aims of nation-states."

From Lord Palmerston: "We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow."

From John Quincy Adams (on American foreign policy specifically: "Wherever the standard of freedom and Independence has been or shall be unfurled, there will her heart, her benedictions and her prayers be. But she goes not abroad, in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own."

Camillo di Cavour: "Astonish them with my ingratitude." (His response when asked by a reporter what he would do for the Italian liberals who helped him unite Italy.)

Charles-Maurice de Talleyrand-Perigord: “Surtout, pas trop de zele” - "Above all, no zeal."

These all being summed up by Victor Davis Hanson (paraphrasing Thucydides): "Power, not justice... is always the final arbiter of state relations; self-interest, not morality, is what guides and must guide the behavior of states. Appeals to mercy or hope for reprieve are misguided, not rooted in logic or a realistic understanding of human behavior."

So that leaves the question to one not of ethics or morality, but of power and utility - would it work?

There is no way to definitively answer that question, but it is a more than reasonable surmise that it would not. President Putin's actions to date suggest a man who is starkly indifferent to compassion and utterly lacking in such softer virtues. (If nothing else, recall that he is a former KGB officer.) It is therefore more likely than not that he would toss over the side anyone he needed to in order to attain his goals.

However, that must remain mere speculation based on a distant, and therefore unreliable, psychoanalysis. A more concrete analysis suggests that for such a plan to work, President Putin would have to be willing to sacrifice Russian national interests - and more importantly his own grip on power - all for the sake of three or four people. That would hardly be, in terms of pure power-politics, a rational trade-off.

CONT.

[nightdrot]

Moreover, while international law is mostly honored in the breech, it tends to be more adhered to by the Western democracies and has various constituencies, including human rights groups and the like. Thus to violate those laws by kidnapping a noncombatant woman and her children would likely badly split Western public opinion, thus wasting the unusual degree of unity - grant that such unity has been less than advertised - that the West has been able to forge in response to the Russian invasion thus far.

So the idea of kidnapping President Putin's mistress and her children would be the worst of all possible worlds. The West would be violating its own ethical and moral principles and international law - for which, on behalf of Ukraine, it is nominally fighting - to influence a man for whom such considerations are irrelevant to his own calculations and actions. A man operating in an arena where power, and power alone, is the final arbiter and standard.

It is fun to think that there is some simple solution, some waving of the magic wand, that would make this all better. Unfortunately, there is not as that is not the way of human affairs.

[Gwenhwyfar]

Thank you

[Bluemax]

I tend to be utilitarian in ethics. That means that which creates the greatest happiness or relieves the greatest suffering is best. So while it's sad that innocents have been kidnapped and their very lives threatened, if it worked I would agree it *is* ethical since it would alleviate the greatest suffering. A few are brutalized to spare millions from being brutalized.

However, I don't think it would work at all. Putin has demonstrated he is almost devoid of compassion. If anything he would use the act to *justify* his stance that he wants less Western influence in the area. More than a few nations would join him. World opinion would mostly be against the the kidnappers' nation. Thus not only would you *not* stop the brutalization, you would increase the suffering by having the opinions of other nations swayed more towards his side. And of course you have also increased human suffering by adding his mistress and her kids to the victims.

Also this kind of assumes Putin is acting entirely on his own. He's not, and it's entirely possible his staff would not obey a withdraw order because they would feel the order is given under duress and thus invalid.

No, I don't think it's ethical because it would increase human suffering if anything because it would not work.

[Agape93]

Not at all ethical and sadly it wouldn't work. He'd have his own commandos go and fight the other commandos, swiss neutrality or sovereignty doesn't mean a thing. Just like how they handled terrorists in an embassy, he could also find out who the commandos family members are, and have them kidnapped and mutilated until the commandos surrendered. That's even assuming he cares enough about them to even address it.

[Gwenhwyfar]

That makes a lot of sense

[Agape93]

Yeap. It's a volatile situation. I'm in favor of forcing a confrontation. I'll dm you what I sent Jim earlier today on one way we can do just that. And if you paid attention in the news lately, you'll see some of what I said already starting in regards to our veterans

[Gwenhwyfar]

Thank you

[DizzyDesii]

I dont wish harm on those who just happen to be acquainted with someone wreckless and i certainly dont wish harm on a child. I disagree with your friend. Besides, im not the type to go for the greater good. I do what i feel is right in the moment and won't have a huge burden in the long run. there's a better way to handle the guy’s actions

[DizzyDesii]

I wouldn't kill one person to save the world. So i certainly wouldn't agree to harming a family to save others. Its not my job to protect the world. I just try to help it become a better place. Not the best place

[Gwenhwyfar]

I totally agree with you

[OlderAndWiser]

When a thug is holding a knife to your neck, threatening to slash your throat, ethics is not a concern or consideration. Survival trumps morals, ethics, international law, or the Marquess of Queensberry rules.

[ohshee]

I know I've learned a long time ago with somebody like Putin he's never going to change when you're out in the country walking the roads and there's a rattlesnake in front of you you have to pin it down and you have to cut off his head and then bury the head otherwise it could still jump up and Bite some thing.. his wife a d kids have nothing to do with this. Putting is evil. Just because if Ego of self hr has put the whole world in a place we never had to go. He has changed the world a d now has every country thinking time to build their military up even more just to stay protected then you have China almost as evil as Putin thinking about joining Putin but which I need doesn't understand is Putin is very evil and will just be using China to get what they want I guarantee you when people say Russia is poor I guarantee their militaries not poor I would guarantee that Putin is printing money left and right building their arms forces up

You kind of sounds crazy but there are rules to war even though they're not followed but it takes some balls to know that this could started World War Three and you're okay with it and you okay with your kids and your wife being destroyed by doing this it makes no sense to me it's all because of you go little short man syndrome

[normalice]

Anyone who has the luxury of being concerned about ethics in a war is not in a war.

That said, if Putin cared about them they would be with him already. They will not function as a hostage but by taking them hostage it may provide Putin with an excuse for some form of escalation.

[Gwenhwyfar]

Interesting. Thanks.

[jasco]

First off that would be very difficult to do and even if they did it. If Russia were to find out, what makes you think putin isn't gonna attack them to get them back. If they kill his family, he has nothing to lose now. He can start using as many nukes as he wants because you killed his family. That's why I don't like hostages, its a double edge sword. If you kill them, the guy that came for them has nothing to lose and will more than likely kill you. If you don't kill them, who knows if he's gonna care enough to stop doing what he was doing/ give in to your demands

[Emiliamazing]

I don’t think this would work on a few fronts. If a democratic/free nation decided to move forward with this operation, it would set a dangerous precedent for other countries to reciprocate that type of action against our country and other democracies. Violence begets violence. It’s a lofty goal, but the only way around actions similar to what Russia is doing to Ukraine right now is to remove individuals from power or strengthen weaker countries to defend themselves.

[Gwenhwyfar]

What about assassinating Putin? My friend recommended that too.

[NathanDavis]

it is not ethical no... it is criminal

but besides that... is just the stupidest AF thing to do, ever

it's even more stupid than Donald Trump suggesting (jokingly or not) that the US should just paint war planes with China Flags and go after Russia "we'll say we did not do it, China did it"

[Gwenhwyfar]

The person who recommended it to me is a big Trump supporter

[Agagagagaga]

You know that’s exactly what the Soviet Union did when they supplied fighter jets to fight against the Americans in the Korean War.

They painted their jet planes with Korean flags and call signs and spoke in Korean on the radio instead of Russian to trick people into thinking that they weren’t involved in the war and that it was all Korean pilots. It wasn’t. Stupid?

[Gwenhwyfar]

@Agagagagaga did they have Russian accents?

[NathanDavis]

@gwenhwyfar lol... that's a funny coincidence

[NathanDavis]

@Agagagagaga just to be absolutely clear... you're referring to the Korean war back in the 1950's... right?

because back in medieval times yes... you could also wear the "gear" of your enemies, pretend to be them and then start and stir and trick some people and it would actually work, but that was centuries ago... not in 2022

what exactly are you implying here... lmfao

[boggboss]

Fuck thats really a hard one as let's say he called the buddy would u really be willing to give the order to kill them and if u could argue that being ok where do u draw the line as in theory if the world decided to work together to bomb Russia back to the Stine age u could argue we are preventing future issues that might happen

[Candiateforfun]

I agree with @WhitewingedGirl that it's not unethical. It's looking out for the most people's safety (Ukraine I agree with @whitewingedgirlhitewingedgirl that it's not unethical. It's looking out for the most people's safety (Ukraine and Europe). I don't know if it would work though.

[Gwenhwyfar]

Thanks

[Candiateforfun]

Oh wow. What happened?
Anyway, I think my message got through 😂

[Gwenhwyfar]

It got through 😊

[FreyaRed]

No one country would support that, because targeting the 1% isn't allowed. It's not about ethics because collateral damages among children and women have been never an obstacle to achieve military goals.
Even if someone could take Putin's closest ones as hostages and hide them successfully. It's too naive to believe that starting or ending a war is single person decision.

[Кураж]

No, it wouldn't be.
But I think that deportation and permanent visa and travel ban across EU, US and the commonwealth should happen to Putin, his relatives and everyone connected to his inner circle.

Make sure they can't enjoy the comforts of the western civilization while they actively commit acts of violence against it.

[DaveJord]

Well the difference between good guys and bad guys is that bad guys will never play by the rules... and they win to a certain degree because good guys will not do what ever it takes to win.

But in this case ethical or unethical... no I do not think it would be a good strategy.

[Alexandrubaschet08]

It is not an exact solution.
He would not be the first Russian dictator to place his own children to die for his own interests. Stalin did the same with his son, letting him die at the hands of the Nazis when he could save him in a prisoner exchange.
Little in this case is divorced, and not much is known about him and his relationship with his family, so no matter how daring this solution may be, the more exposed to failure it can be.

[England4eva]

As weird as it sounds there are rules involved in war... yeah I know it sounds ridiculous.
I don’t understand war. I understand it even less in 2022

[Gwenhwyfar]

I know. But is it ethical to break those rules to achieve a greater good?

[England4eva]

But then what if everyone started doing this during wartime? What if it set a new standard? I see the point your making. The issue though is, what if it inspires others to carry out this type of act for the same results in the future? This is why noone can touch the nuclear buttons... it gives the go ahead for others to resort to this type of war fare.
Peace talks and negotiations will work if enough of our leaders take them seriously and push for peace.

[Gwenhwyfar]

I agree with you

[England4eva]

Thanks chick (don’t feel obliged to agree tho, just my thoughts) 🙂

[Gwenhwyfar]

I don’t feel obliged 😊. I really do agree.

[England4eva]

Ok cool. Cause your always entitled to feel differently. Sometimes on here people can be a bit overwhelming if you don’t agree with them 🙂

[Gwenhwyfar]

Once again I totally agree! LMAO

[England4eva]

Just my own crappy experience on here 😂

[Gwenhwyfar]

You’re not wrong girl

[lrina]

first of all, you wouldn't be able to do that. but even if you did, do you really think that'd do anything?

[Gwenhwyfar]

Honestly, no. But she’s convinced it would work.

[lrina]

bruh :')

[Jerre]

It’s not ethical, but neither is war. I think anything should be done, ethical or not, to stop the killing of helpless innocent women and children in Ukraine. Personally, I don’t think Putin would blink twice if your scenario happened.

[Gwenhwyfar]

I think you’re right. And they are innocents.

[msc545]

No it would not be ethical. This is the same sort of terrorist tactic that other terrorists use. Although the United States basically uses terrorist tactics it usually does so under a guise of concealment. This would not be concealed and would therefore affect public opinion negatively. That said, public opinion of the United States is so low now that a little more probably would not make much difference.

[TommyMountainFigure]

You are talking about a man itching for any excuse to use nuclear weapons!!! Why do you think there isn't a no fly zone in The Ukraine (yet)? It's as a last resort only, or if he attacks any NATO Country!

[Star_88]

I think it is. What they're doing?
Ruining, scarring and finishing lives of millions of innocent people?
But just holding their wives and children as hostage is fine as long as they're not being harmed.

[Xoirwinkan]

Even if it was ethical, I doubt it would work. These Russian/Soviet leaders are made of stern stuff, like when Stalin's son was captured by the Germans he made no deals for his return.

[Gwenhwyfar]

Interesting. Thanks.

[n4meAL]

Wow Interesting

[n4meAL]

@gwenhwyfar come to think of it it's only suspected that his family is in switzerland we don't know the truth where he is hiding and some say that his first wife and daughter are hiding in an underground city in siberia.

kidnapping may not be effective because the location is not clear and also they have highly trained troops.

[silkjames]

That would Make it even worse he would use that too keep waring on harder and they are probably well protected anyways and plus his girl and children have nothing too do with his and Russia actions.

[B4852]

I don't think so. Especially when there are other ways to help end this war.

Besides, Biden is in violation of our 1994 treaty with Ukraine, where we promised Ukraine security assurance against Russia in exchange for Ukraine to get rid of their nuclear weapons.

[B4852]

The text of the agreement can be found in the, "Ukraine: Budapest Memorandum of 1994." Incase anyone is interested in looking it up.

[Grond21]

I don't think it would be ethical, even if it's tempting

[Gwenhwyfar]

Thanks

[dustybiker]

Wouldn’t he be just as likely to send in people to professionally poison high-ranking people in whatever country pissed him off? Long history of similar already.

[legalboxers]

why not get a sharpshooter and plug him? or would that hurt his boyfriends feelings?

[Gwenhwyfar]

She (my friend) mentioned that too lol

[legalboxers]

@gwenhwyfar lol... people think like me as well? scary

[GoodGuyBreakingBad]

My advice @gwenhwyfar - Give Ukraine weapons to knock Putin's weapons down and knock down his tanks, Maybe this will make him see that he is not getting anywhere?

[KatherineJ]

Sounds awfully risky, and isn’t Switzerland a neutral country?

[Gwenhwyfar]

Yes. It is. Although they did join in sanctioning Russia.

[collie22]

not really cause Putin's family isn't responsible for Putin's sin's

[Gwenhwyfar]

Agreed

[Apulu_3]

It's a good idea only if his kids are adults. They could have stopped their dad but they didn't and they at least get that for punishment.

[Sour-rose]

That sounds insane... and I'm unsure if that would get the wanted results. Results of course, but I don't think that would be good for anyone. :c

[Whatthefluff]

It's basically the trolley problem. Risk a few for the lives of millions? Rationally, there is no downside.

[Guffrus]

The trolley problem is a no brainer though, you don't get to pick who lives and dies.

[AviatorTom]

Kidnapping is NEVER ethical. It is an interesting suggestion though, maybe for a future spy movie, not real life.

[Dargil]

The Russian army is being ordered to fire on women and children. I don't think there is an ethics issue here.

[msc545]

When the United States kills women and children it's just called something like collateral damage. When the Russians do it it's called they were ordered to do it. What hypocrisy.

[Dargil]

@msc545 Collateral, not intentional.

[msc545]

Shitty munitions and shitty targeting cause these casualties, and the people that plan this stuff KNOW ahead of time this is likely to happen and do it anyway.

[CrazyGirl2]

Kidnapping women and children is never ethical.

[Gwenhwyfar]

Thank you

[CrazyGirl2]

Oh, you are so welcome Gwen.

[DaveToo]

Ethical? Probably not. But far more ethical than bombing the shit out of apartment buildings, killing men, women and children.

[Jamie05rhs]

That's kinda fucked up, tbh. Lol.
But good thought, though.

[melanieeeB]

The fuck.. no. The poor woman and her children

[Gwenhwyfar]

Thank you

[fonduegirl]

Two minus don't make a plus (well they do in math but you know what I mean).

[CaptainSmartass]

Bollocks to ethics. I'd just go ahead and do it. Even head to Moscow and take Putin, and hand him over to the CIA or whoever.

Simples...

[Anonymous]

Two things:

1) If it actually worked, I don't see a problem with it. But does he really care about them more than himself?

2) I don't think the USA should be involved. We don't need to be the world police. Stay the fuck out of it.

[crmoore]

As an individualist, I don't support sacrificing the few for the many. But either way, it wouldn't be ethical.

[ragooo8]

What happens when putin does something similar. He's already arming America's enemies

[Andres77]

A cruise missile into Putin's office would be the most ethical and effective.

[Friendlybro79]

Effective at potentially causing nuclear war.

[Andres77]

@Friendlybro79 what? By killing the fucker that could order it?
Oh no! We can't do anything because the bully might hurt us!
We've got nukes too but a pussy president who allowed this to get out of hand months ago..

[Friendlybro79]

I'm not sure if you understand the ramifications of nuclear war and what a nuclear winter could cause on our planet. Look it up.

We need to do anything we can to try to stop this without encouraging Nukes flying around. What's happening in Ukraine is awful. I hope we can help end it without it getting drastically worse. Also, is it possible you yourself don't actually have a qualified opinion based on several or more possibilities?

You most likely don't have access to classified materials

You're probably not a military general that knows how to formulate war like strategies while playing out simulations with experts

You probably are angry and rightfully so. Calling people pussies when you've never had as much responsibility as any president isn't making your opinion correct.

The other president loves Putin hates Putin loves Putin hates Putin. He is all talk just like you.

Grow up

[Andres77]

@Friendlybro79 ok you dumb fuq, I spent years in the military and I still have access to..."accurate information".
I know plenty.
If our leaders and the leaders of NATO had any courage there would never be a threat of a nuclear winter.
Biden showed his incompetence during the Afghanistan pull out.
He showed his indecisiveness during the buildup while Putin moved troops to the border.
Putin has so much dirt on Biden and the Clintons that he felt like if he actually stood up against Putin that dirt would be made public.
Biden's corruption and fear sentenced millions of Ukrainians to suffering and death.
You and the general public are so ignorant to how the world works it's really embarrassing and sad.
You might be "friendly" but you're sadly inept to engage on topics like this.
If you knew of how many threats were eliminated over the last 4 years but not covered because the media just hated Trump you'd be shocked. And the media doesn't know about all of them either.
The amount of foreign operatives living here now after Biden opened up our borders should terrify you. They're just waiting.
America is fucked.
We're going to face our own Ukrainian fiasco shortly but it will come from sleeper cells already here.
You voted for this.
It's coming.
We're fucked... well... you are because I'm ready for it.
You're out of your depth boy.
Just live in la la land for the next year.

[Friendlybro79]

Hey if you've been in the military thanks for your service.

Also, sounds like what I said is correct regarding you not having access to classified materials, not being a general, or a president etc.

You do have more experience than me regarding the military, and that still doesn't qualify you to have any insight as to the level of difficulty this situation puts the world in.

Stop talking about what Trump and changing the subject to why you don't like Biden. That's not this conversation. As for La La land... we won't have any land if we destroy ourselves.

You're assuming I'm taking the opinion we shouldn't do anything militarily. I'm saying you're original idea wasn't thought out. No one can say what Putin would have done if prior circumstances with NATO were different or if Trump was president and it's irrelevant because that's not the present we're in. So if you're going to continue to derail the conversation into poor trump, no one credited him with all the adulation a narcissist desires, then move on.

[Andres77]

@Friendlybro79
Would you have killed Hitler if given the opportunity?
Don't you wish Operation Valkyrie would have been successful?

I bet 3rd grade kids that have experience dealing with bullies could give very clear insight on how to deal with Putin.

I'm not a general. I've served on General Staff before. Met foreign presidents, I was invited to Hugo Chavez's inauguration and given clear guidance on what not to do.
Venezuela USED to be the Gem of South America. Look at it now.
Listen, you don't know what I've done professionally and I can't say everything in here. You can call bullshyt because people like you never realize who guys like me really exist. Fair enough.
Killing Putin is our best option IMHO.
Voila...

[Friendlybro79]

Good for you.

[Anonymous]

This will directly lead to a nuclear war.

Very bad idea.

[Gwenhwyfar]

Thanks

[TheAfrikan]

It would work in capturing them but that would drive Putin Nuts and he would tap those consoles for the Nuclear ☢️ weapons. @gwenhwyfar

[exitseven]

It is not ethical. It would be a real dick move.

[Gwenhwyfar]

Agreed

[WowwGirl]

No kids don't pick their parents

[Gwenhwyfar]

Agreed

[Erron_Black]

they should kidnap putin right away haha putin was waiting for commandos to kidnap my family. even putin does not protect his family at all

[WhitewingedGirl]

It's not unethical but it wouldn't work

[Gwenhwyfar]

Thank you

[WhitewingedGirl]

You're welcome

[Tstrbrainer]

Is your friend alright?

[Gwenhwyfar]

She’s good 😊. This is a friend from law school. Not the one who was in a car accident.

[Tstrbrainer]

I was wondering if this friend hit her head somewhere.

[Gwenhwyfar]

No 😊. She just likes cutting the Gordian knot.

[Tstrbrainer]

She'd better be careful with selecting her so if she thinks loved ones are also punishable for crimes

[Gwenhwyfar]

I agree with you

[DevinAM]

Why not just go directly after him?

[Gwenhwyfar]

She also proposed that but thought getting his family would be easier

[Desconhecida]

It seems pretty fair to me. 🤝

[boobliker]

may be if you think you can do it go try

[joeldalton]

It is not ethical and likely a war crime.

[anylolone]

Holly fucking shit, kidnapping children?

[michael1469]

Putin wouldn't give a shit

[Sabretooth]

no. I suspect he'd happily abandon them.

[jimmy2]

I am not sure you dont want KGB after you

[JesseJayNeak]

Ethics are worth nothing when it comes to war

[Anonymous]

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

[Adam_West]

I am not sure but you need to masturbate.