How should a person with Klinefelter syndrome (XXY chromosomes) identify?

[supercutebutt]

VOTE BELOW!

For 28 years Adele was known as Matthew until a stunning medical discovery revealed her true sexual identity.

Most people are born with sex chromosomes that are XX (female) or XY (Male). But 1 out of 500 babies are born XXY, also known as Klinefelter syndrome or KS.

The primary features of KS are infertility and small, poorly functioning testicles. Usually, symptoms are subtle and subjects do not realize they are affected. Sometimes, symptoms are more evident and may include weaker muscles, greater height, poor motor coordination, less body hair, breast growth, and less interest in sex. Often, these symptoms are noticed only at puberty.

Due to a lack of understanding of the condition amongst healthcare providers, KS is grossly underdiagnosed, with most patients never receiving a diagnosis. Within this population, gender dysphoria is of a considerably higher incidence than in the general population.

Click here for Adele's story!

Click here for famous people who were either diagnosed or suspected as being XXY

Male

Female

They should decide

[loveslongnails]

I don't care how they "identify". I put an end to all this brouhaha, at least in my mind, by asking and answering this simple question: "Which FULLY FUNCTIONAL REPRODUCTIVE SYSTEM were you born with?" If you have a uterus and can give birth, I'm labeling your "SEX" as female. If you have fully functional, sperm making apparatus and injection system (or even if the latter is faulty but the former works fine), then I'm labeling your MALE as male.

So, if you're a Female (my definition), but you want to identify as something OTHER than that, here's where it gets messy. Since male=man and female=woman is NOT acceptable these days, the Female (my definition), who chooses to identify as a "man" and calls herself a "trans-man", can birth a baby. So, now all of a sudden "trans-MEN" can have babies, or as the fringies like to say "men can have have babies". Hmmm, not really, not by my definition. A "trans-man" is still a natural born female with a working uterus.

So identify any way you like - until you can change your functional reproductive system, you are what you were born with in terms of "sex" categorization. So what's the big deal?

[supercutebutt]

Well KS people are infertile unless there is extensive medical intervention from what I have read.

[loveslongnails]

I don't know about that. My answer would likely be the same if they are - identify however you want.

[Lionman95]

Interesting question because many people don´t know about the phenomen. I would say they´d either be male or decide themselves. I got diagnosed with it at age 14 since doctors wondered why my puberty hit late.

I always thought of me as a guy and I wouldn´t change that though it influences my life. I therefore define being a guy more by character aspects than physical ones.

[supercutebutt]

Do you think it's true that George Washington was XXY?

[Lionman95]

I don´t know. I never spent time looking for famous people that also are said to be diagnosed with KS.

[monorprise]

You realize theses people have man parts, and many if not most are even capable of impregnating a woman?

This makes them effectively male does it not?

[Lionman95]

@monorprise yes it does and I never meant to neglect that. With saying i rather define masculinity by character and less with physical aspects i was rather referring to myself since I'm tall and thin not having a strong physique. I would just disagree in terms of the majority of them being able to impregnate a woman since a symptom of having Klienefelter Syndrome is infertility. If a guy is fully fertile but he is a tall and has a small dick, I'd assume that he doesn't have klinefelter.

[monorprise]

@Lionman95 It may lower your sperm count, unless it makes that count 0 you can impregnate a woman.

There is also a large number of guys who have it and just dont know it. Since as you pointed out something odd would have to happen for a doctor to even have reason to check. Which is not nessarly even the case.

[supercutebutt]

@monorprise From what I read, medical intervention is needed for impregnation.

[monorprise]

@supercutebutt observational bias as they would be unlikely to know Klinefelter unless you were showing symptoms significant enough to require medical intervention.

The bar for requiring medical intervention however is to only increase the odds that were already non-zero.

[supercutebutt]

@monorprise The number of XXY people who identify as female is also non-zero. You can read about Adele with the link I provided up above. :)

[monorprise]

@supercutebutt the number of XY people who 'identify' as female is even more significant, so that is hardly of any consequence.

[supercutebutt]

@monorprise It's a higher % within the XXY community, though. And it's an inconvenient truth for you and others within the busybody community. :)

[monorprise]

@supercutebutt What makes the fact that certain genetic and environmental factors make people more predisposed to general/mental health issues inconvenient?

The fact that your family has a predisposition to alcoholism doesn't change the fact that alcoholism is bad for you and can ruin your life it just makes it harder for you to control it.

[supercutebutt]

@monorprise You argue poorly. Maybe brush up on your "skills."

[monorprise]

@supercutebutt Perhaps you can answer the question of what makes your observation inconvenient to me, rather than give me your opinion on the technique of my argument?

[Lionman95]

@monorprise It´s not odd since a guy with KS has man private parts but undersized ones meaning his balls are small, too. But that´s not the only problem in life another aspect is that he has a low level of testosterone which makes working out harder for him, he has less facial and body hair than other guys his age... I would be astonished to be honest that there are supposingly large numbers of guys with such symptoms though I also think that the ratio is higher than the scientific stats.

[Lionman95]

Thanks for the MHO by the way.

[Amy10223]

I feel that they should decide what gender they are most truly comfortable with, and with whatever they identify with. Let them make that decision for themselves.

[monorprise]

These people have male not female parts, many if not most are even capable of impregnating women.

That they may be less developed than a normal male with lower than normal Testosterone does not make them less male. It doesn't fundamentally change the fact that they could sleep with a woman.

[Amy10223]

@monorprise That, I realize. But my opinion was based on how the patient felt most--if they felt as if they were neither male nor female when young--I imagine their gender identities would come later as they matured.

[monorprise]

@Amy10223
Is your "Gender" is a matter of your feelings or your biology?

If it is your feelings, there is little to stop you from changing your mind everyday as such what you think is only relevant to you.

Just as it is unknowable to everyone else much like whether or not you predisposed to assault or rape other people. Therefore we must address what you could do physically in taking prudent measures to contain such abuse.

As such from the practical point of view someone who has a Y chromosome and therefore male physical capabilities must be regarded as male.

[supercutebutt]

@Amy10223, you are conversing with a gentleman living within the busybody community. @monorprise feels he should decide things for people he doesn't even know.

[monorprise]

@supercutebutt You seem to be missing the point of the conversation with @Amy10223 .

The point of the question "is 'gender' a matter of your feelings or biology?" and follow up discussion of the implications of each answer.

Was to point out that we as OTHER people need not busybody ourselves to know or care about other their feelings.
This is because anyone CAN and DO change changes such feelings as often as they want, and we as OTHER people can never know what they really are regardless.

Instead we as OTHER people can and should be concerned about their biology for it defines what they CAN do to us and others regardless of their unknowable 'feelings'.

Like it or not. not knowing their "feelings" means we also can't know if they are a rapist or criminal and there is a significant difference between a male and female capabilities biologically with such feelings.

What we can do try to make it more difficult for the males to have access to the females in compromising positions. So that regardless of their feelings the females have a greater sense of security.

We can also likewise take measures to insure fair competition knowing the males biologically have an enormous advantage over the females.

As such the biological definition of gender has meaning even thou the emotional one really doesn't.

[Amy10223]

@monorprise Your gender is based on biology, not feelings. Most men with Klinefelters syndrome grow up identifying as men, and some develop female gender identities. There is no “should” in these cases. It is up to them to decide what they feel they want to identity with best. Your question is written in a way to have others form a judgement on how someone else should act, or be. No one has this right.

[Amy10223]

@monorprise I wanted to add--part of your biology IS your feelings, whether they are feminine or masculine. They are part of your phenotype--so what you're comparing are two things that go with one another.

[Amy10223]

Supercutebutt-- I'm trying to reason with your question at hand and his reply-who knows what his circumstances are? No one but him.

[monorprise]

@Amy10223 The point is whether their feelings are part of their biology or not they are unknowable to others.
Just like someone's predisposition to be a rapist or a murders could in fact be related to their biology.
What is knowable and testable is the physical capabilities of their biology. With that knowledge risk can be mitigated via segregation such as keeping men out of women's locker rooms.

This is the practical meaning of sex, and if gender has any other meaning I don't really see it's unknowable relevance to anyone who doesn't know you.

How is that not the most reasonable and egalitarian position?

[Amy10223]

@monorprise I don't know exactly what your point is now---because you keep changing your question and asking something else. My point is that people will choose the identity that they feel more comfortable with. Your personality is part of your biological makeup because of the phenotype you inherit. That will determine how much of masculine or feminine traits you will inherit. So based on that and maybe other factors--the person will choose the identity they want--and again--there is nothing anyone "should" do because that is their decision to make and no one else's.

[monorprise]

@Amy10223
I feel the point is rather consistent in asserting what I feel to be a fact that only biological sex is meaningfully description, in describing a both knowable and meaningful distinction.

I really do beleive we human by nature are far more defined by what we learn than what we are, what we are being soo little different from each other. The main exception thereof being male and female where there is a significance difference, however clearly even then not so much as to radically alter what we can learn to be.

To this end I call theses learned traits personalities that some people associate certain aspects there of with a particular sex does not nessarly follow said association is relevant to said sex. nor by nor in anyway defining. As such the original question of how you define 'gender' is a question of personality or observable biology.

[Amy10223]

@monorprise I’ll have to disagree with you on that point because I feel we are not just defined as to the biological gender we were born with. You are very verbose in your explanation and to me what you’re saying doesn’t answer the original question.

[Jennz6]

There was a “Study” about people with XXY chromosomes that were all criminals but the only thing wrong was the study was using convicts as Study Participants?

[supercutebutt]

Yeah that sounds like something jerky people would do.

[Jennz6]

@supercutebutt I know right?

[Jennz6]

Thanks for the MHO

[monorprise]

You realize theses people have man parts, and most are even capable of impregnating a woman?

How does this not make them male?

[Dargil]

By looking down while in the shower. Convex = male Concave = female. Keep it simple.

[supercutebutt]

So if you visit my country and a MAGA patriot shoots your genitalia off (32% chance it will happen) you will return home as a lady?

[Dargil]

Nope. Just neutered like my cat.

[humanearth]

They should have that decision.

I really don't care. It's their life, Its not my life to live.

[OddBeMe]

This may be unnatural…but self decision is kind of in right now…

[AngryCarl2]

If you have Klinefelter Syndrome I think how you identify is the least of your problems.

[supercutebutt]

List the "problems," Angry.

[AngryCarl2]

Eh, do your own research.

[Guardian45]

That is a private matter between a patient and their doctor.

[SteveSmith1985]

However the fuck they want.

[Debbie14217]

not sure tbh