Is "Green Energy" a scam?

[Daniela1982]

It is supposed to save money, not throw it away as not renewable.

[RavVid]

I'm in Australia not the US but the same fuckery, the same three card trick is being played everywhere so I'm gonna bite bitterly on your insightful question.

When I found out the lifetime of a wind turbine is 20 years it was quite clear that the build out would never be completed because after 20 years you have to do it all over again. Real power stations have a fifty year life time - the 30 year difference is significant.

The basic engineering question of "Does this have a hope in hell of working?" was never addressed because fanboys are in charge. It wasn't a difficult question to ball park. Lots of weather stations record wind speed. Assuming you can put as many wind turbines at each weather station you could get a first approximation as to if it was a GO or NOGO and how much it would bloody cost.

As it turns out it is a NOGO. With lots of installed capacity the effective capacity is at best 20% of installed capacity and quite often only 10% and sometimes 0%. The theory was that a specific wind farm might be becalmed but other wind farms would be spinning and it would average out. Wrong, the entire 4,000 Km eastern freeboard of Australia can be becalmed. That assumption could have been easily tested. but of course they didn't.

One of the funny ones was the Australian state most dependent on wind power omitted to observe they could have a week in a becalmed state. They couldn't restart when the wind did blow because you have to sync generators because if generators aren't in phase there is an enormous short circuit between the generators. Elon Musk rang up and said I will build you the worlds largest battery.

The ignorant thought that meant the state would run off the battery when the wind wasn't blowing. Wrong. The worlds largest battery was just able to substitute for one wind farm for two hours. A big three card trick. The impression given is way way different to the reality.

The most current three card trick is that offshore wind is stronger and more constant. My question is what makes us think so? What wind data do we have for offshore? We will have some because ships take wind measurements but shipping lanes and offshore wind turbines aren't a good mix.

So just for devilment I have requested the entire offshore meteorlogical record for Australia from our met office. So far I have just got fortnightly emails telling me they are 'working' on my request. If I had requested the entire land met data for Australia I would already have it because when I requested it only took a week to get.

My net step after our met office answers my request in the negative (i. e. by not supplying) will be making a Freedom of Information request to my Federal Gov't. I want to make them fess up to not having any actual wind data and at best they have 'modeled' data and hence have no bloody idea if the billions they intend to spend has a prayer of working.

Love the pic by the way.

[onedarkcloud]

Love you did lot of homework which your government and mine, DID NOT DO. You use of the word becalmed is the best description of as we Yanks say the wind isn't blowing. What I find amazing is no one is talking about is wave power which is never at rest I have only heard of one wave power program a few years back, which sound better than limited life windmill and solar with big batteries as back up for a few hours. THE OCEAN IS ALWAYS IN SOME SORT OF MOTION. I can see this being used in rivers in some form and not have to build destructive dams. New York Citys East River has an underwater watermill making power to run a large super market for a few years now. Our governments are trying to do all this in a few years to try and play catchup for their lack of foresight of 50 years and as usual we are the ones being screwed again.

[RavVid]

@onedarkcloud There is one wave power site only that I know of in my country. Yes wave power is superior because the medium is denser and ocean (but not all bays) are always in motion. It is a corrosive environment is the problem but had sufficient effort been paid from the beginning material science might have been developed that overcame corrosion.

There is a cost in going down paths that don't have a hope in hell of working and it is not hard to ball park.

Large cost investments inherently require a long working life time - that has always been the case. Solar panels have about a 20 year life time too by the way.

If politicians are going to ignore these two basic points then I think it needs some citizen science/engineering to pull them into line instead of letting them to continually bleed us out.

What is the name of that East River watermill - I'd like to look it up.

And thanks for your kind comments too.

[onedarkcloud]

My description was poor at best it a smaller version of a regular wind driven generator with modification for underwater salt water use. The East River is a fast flowing Tidel river that separates Manhattan Island from the other boroughs of New York City... the water powered power plant supplies power Grestidies Supermarket [ approx. spelling ] on Roosevelt Island. There is no name for the power plant will try to get more information for you.

[onedarkcloud]

Look up Verdant Power of NEW YORK... Triframe mount turbine. Also Tide Mill institute please keep me advised of your thoughts on this form of power and if I be of help

[RavVid]

@onedarkcloud Thanks. knew a little of east river.. Will read up an get back.

[OtterMan68]

We used to use wood and whale or vegetable or animal fat oil for lighting

Then we used whale oil for light. Then kerosene.

Then we switched to electricity powered by coal. Trains and ships ran on coal.

Ships and trains switched to diesel.

Electricity is produced with coal, natural gas, hydro-power, geo-thermal power, wind, and solar.

Times change and sources of power change.

Time will come when fossil fuels are no longer needed to produce electricty: batteries will be longer lasting and hold more energy to make-up for down time in wind or solar. Cars, etc will become more efficient. It's the march of progress.

Progress is not easy, cheap, or clean. It's messy. We will find better more affordable and more sustainable ways.

No one thinks breathing air with coal particles and ash in it is good for you.

I don't support ANY gov subsidies for any energy source. We do NOT need to "save coal" if it means tax-payer money or price floors. We don't need to subsidize fossil fuels or green energy.

Let the markets and the consumers decide.

[MicahRaine]

Amen to energy sources evolving. I've seen it. If any country in the world wanted this, there would be unlimited energy available to all. I've seen it. Nobody wants it.

[Daniela1982]

Electricity can not rely on Nuclear, wind, hydro, or solar in a sustained basis. Nuclear can do more harm than good. The radioactive waste needs to go somewhere. Wind would need huge windmills that would mess up the scenery. Solar needs huge fields of solar panels, and replacing a few thousand cost mucho denairos. Hydro does no good in a drought as was seen in California. In fact, in Oregon and California more than a few dams were removed to save a few fish that will die anyway in a drought.

[Siri137]

Oh God, is it EVER! I could go on a very long rant about all of the things that are wrong with 'green energy', from the fact that it isn't at all 'green' (i. e. friendly to the environment), to the fact that it ultimately relies upon fossil fuels to provide the back-up energy requirements that are needed during peak times of usage, to the exploding Tesla cars, the huge amounts of waste generated by these hopelessly inefficient contraptions, to the birds that are killed by those blasted wind turbines, to list just a few.

But I'll spare you all that. :)

[onedarkcloud]

THERE IS ONE POSSIBILITY that is from the ocean wave power. there was some guy building a system that took the motion of the ocean and it turned it into power. As a regular guy I can see this working in a part of the ocean not used for shipping., better than solar and bird killing windmills and oil

[FreyaRed]

Making sustainable and recyclable products isn't in interest of industry. And interest of the richest 1% stand far above interest of the pleb and whole humanity.

[Papisongo]

I wouldn’t go so far as to call it a scam, but there are certainly real concerns, particularly with the increasing number of electric cars in use. Out electrical grid is already at or near capacity. Whenever we have an extended Summer heat wave, residents are encouraged to conserve energy and to use air conditioning sparingly. Electric cars need to have their batteries charged. Where is that extra electricity going to come from? If we will have to burn more fossil fuels to produce the additional electricity, then why not just cut out the middle man and burn the fuel in a conventional gas engine vehicle instead? Another concern is that the electric car batteries are no longer suitable to power cars once their charge capacity drops below 80%. Without enough alternative uses for these used batteries, they’ll end up in landfills, and their contents aren’t exactly environmentally friendly. Finally, when going on a road trip, who wants to be forced to stop for upwards of an hour every few hundred miles to charge the car?

[onedarkcloud]

This crap of green energy is being floated with nothing to replace in a timely manor. They want electric cars NOW without an electrical grid that can support it. They want electric tractor trailers that can only carry 2/3 the load requires tons of batteries with only two hundred miles range before charging causing longer travel time hundreds of thousands of trucks to make the difference in capacity and mileage. again, no electrical grid to support the truck There is nothing in planning to build the infrastructure needed except wind and solar which has been proven to have MOJOR problems Then there are the farmers who need diesel to run farm equipment they can't afford the hundreds of thousands of dollars to up grade. REMEMBER NO FARMERS NO FOOD. NO FOOD NO LIFE All this GREEN NEW DEAL is floated with no real thought behind just do it food shortages be dammed. Material pollution be dammed, shortages be dammed, people be dammed, Mankind rush to green energy, regardless of consequences.

[Papisongo]

@onedarkcloud Politics play a huge role in all of these things. Corporate greed runs a close second, with the lines between corporate and government interests becoming ever more blurred. Back in high school, circa 1978, my Earth Sciences teacher told the class that the real reason we didn’t have more Solar Energy was because the big oil companies couldn’t figure out who owned the Sun!

[Massageman]

The CONCEPT of shoving it down our necks- on the pretext that it is helping things in the long run- is the scam. There are a few things we can do to use less energy in the total equation, but everything we can do will ALWAYS have an effect on something else. The problem is that very few really think about the upstream and downstream effects of alternative power sources. Wind farms? Ooop - a bird might get whacked. Old lithium ion batteries? Good luck getting rid of them. AND paying for the replacement. Using obviously less efficient sources? That's a biggie. Solar cells are the answer? Oh, sure - until a hailstorm takes out 90% of your grid. etc

[Daniela1982]

@Massageman Also, the panels have to be cleaned regularly of all the sand and dust, like the solar farms that they have here in the desert. No one does that for free. And if they are not cleaned off regularly they will be less effective. And then we have nuclear plants. The prime target for terrorists. We don't need any more Three Mile Island, Chernobyl, or Fukushima power plant failures where big areas could be made uninhabitable for a long time. But yet that idiot Biden wants to do away with gasoline powered anything. Our power grid would never be able to keep up. Look at all the rolling blackouts we have now.

[Massageman]

not to mention the lawsuits when those windmills fly apart or collapse! (I've seen both on I-65).

[Daniela1982]

There is a highway 65 in Missouri. Does I-65 go through Louisiana?

[Massageman]

Interstate I-65 goes south through Indiana (where we see the DOA wind farms) south through Alabama through Mobile. I-49 and I-55 go through Louisiana, I believe.

[Massageman]

US Route 65 does go through MO, but it's not part of the Interstate.

[BadApple69]

Yes it’s a scam. And I have the perfect example to prove it too.
Bill Gates is backing a company (the article is in Forbes behind a pay wall or I would post the link) basically trees capture carbon so if you cut trees down and burry them you trap the carbon underground.
If that isn’t a bunch of shit I don’t know what is…. Trees also give us oxygen, and carbon is plant food.


seriously what tree hugger (and I’m not one) would believe that cutting trees down is better for the planet?
Oh and to let you know why they are doing this it’s because by burying the trees this company creates carbon credit which Bill Gates then sells for millions of dollars.
The man is a scum bag!

[Levin]

I'd say I'm a sceptic.

It needs to be balanced against the very real and impoverishing effects of green subsidies and technology on the population, which is essentially a regressive taxation;

the adverse impacts upon business and the economy;

the dubious green credentials and just downright crappiness of green technology, such as electric cars, which I think are garbage. Consumers are voting with their feet and recently sales have slowed.

I note in the UK we have reduced CO2 emissions by a half since the 90s. But we have also lost around that much of our manufacturing capacity. Essentially outsourced the dirty parts of the production chain to poorer countries.

[Levin]

Also, I understand there's a big upcoming problem similar in kind with solar panels. They can't be easily recycled and the first generation are just coming to the end of their lifecycle.

[Soteris]

No it is not a scam and there is a very good reason why green energy is the largest growing industry in many countries. Furthermore, it is an industry that is rapidly growing in technology as well which means every dollar invested into it not only gives you great returns but also fuels new technology that performs even better in a year or so.

Also we do have the technology to recycle windmill blades but without government regulation it is unlikely that the industry will do it by themselves. Knowing you I do not think you are in favor of government regulations so I am just going to assume that you are cheering on that tractor as it buries those blades.

[onedarkcloud]

If you really believe what the Government is telling you blindly, I have some bridges here in New York to sell you CHEAP! If you have not learned anything about Government from the COVID 19 follies is that GOVERNMENTS LIES. They don't even, try to hide that they are lying. Just look at what Biden says every day and it is an outright lie. Everything about The New Green Deal is a lie half truth half BULLSHITand all to put money in Democrats pockets

[Soteris]

@onedarkcloud I dont particularly care if you support the green new deal or not, it does not change the fact that green energy is the future. It also does not change the fact that we can recycle the windmill blades but corporations do not want to do it as demonstrated by the picture above.

Only the government has the realistic ability to capitalize on the future of green energy, which is inevitable, and the ability to force corporations to recycle. You can dislike the government however much you like but that is the truth.

[onedarkcloud]

The government want to do in 5years what in reality should take between 30 and 50 years to do. They are pushing a pipe dream. change a way of life with no replacements

[Soteris]

@onedarkcloud *rolls eyes* We should have done this 50 years ago, not IN 50 years. The advancements in green technology has not been limited by current technology, it was limited by investment and interest. We could have started to work on them whenever we wanted, but we stubbornly refused and kept churning out fossil fuel alternatives which we knew was both bad and a dead-end technology.

The market will not change on its own, its already demonstrated this. The government giving them no choice is the objectively best way to push the market to innovate. This is actual progress, finally after all these decades we got the free market of ideas to actually consider new ideas. Capitalism is FINALLY working as advertised and you think we should shut it all down again so it can stagnate for another 50 years.

[onedarkcloud]

Like I said they have no replacement in place. Ban gas powered cars GREAT replace them with cars that no one can afford its cold outside they don't charge milage drops to less than 50%. Then the electrical grid is 50 years out of date no plans to build any replacement OH YEAH wind power and solar yeah that worked well in Texas didn't it hundreds of millions of dollars in damages when the system failed in a cold snap and no back up. Change is needed but like I said you cannot do in 5 years what should have started 50 years ago. It takes time to remove tech and replace it. decades to remove and build replacement transmission tower and wiring and transformers. With new types of power generation new tech is needed to keep up. farmers need old types of fuel to upgrade to other form of energy will cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. I am not saying something as stupid as shutting everything down like what will happen if we follow the plans that people want to do today, If we follow that plan we crash and million die due to food and fuel shortages. We need to build the new and have it running in place and shut down the old not shut down and try to build new, because it takes time to do such a massive job not run blindly screaming save the Earth with a half a plan.

[Soteris]

@onedarkcloud First of all, it was not Solar and Wind power that failed Texas, it was its fossil fuel power plants. They simply blamed it on the green technologies for political reasons. Also, once again, it was politics that removed winterization standards and politics that cut Texas power grid away from the rest of USA so that they could not import electricity when they needed it.

The power outage in Texas is as such a failure in politics, not in the technologies themselves. Also you are exaggerating the problem. For example, the plan is not to remove the old but to make sure all the new is built with green technology or as close as possible. You will still be able to buy petrol, you will still be able to drive internal combustion cars, it is just that if you buy a new one then it will be an electric car instead.

As for the power grid, green energy is not nearly as taxing on the energy grid as coal and such is. Specifically because it is more spread out and therefore does not have to travel as far to reach the customer.

What you are saying is not reflecting reality.

[onedarkcloud]

Lol Texas could not import the power needed because the grid failed and is 60 years behind. Please explain to me and the hundreds of millions of people going to be affected by the governments half thought out plan to implement Greem Power by stopping the use oil natural gas, coal, nuclear. when wind and solar don't work because of the fact that it would take tens of thousands of acres of land the hold the number of units to generate the amounts of power needed plus no infrastructure to transmit the power to where it is needed. Explain to us how are we going to do this in a 10 to 15 time period as Biden wants. That is the reality we face. Shut down power without a replacement in place. Lets see what the AI comes up with.

[Soteris]

@onedarkcloud No, the whole point of having a power grid is to import electricity when you are having problems locally, and no it was not the transmission lines that failed in particular as the problem came from power generation. Texas can't do this because they intentionally cut themselves away from the rest of USA's power grid, essentially isolating themselves.

Of course, as with anything Texan, they dont uphold a high standard so of course their energy grid is 60 years out of date because "it still works so why bother upgrading it?". It is capitalism at its dumbest.

Also Biden literally has a published plan. If you are asking me how Biden is going to do something, why dont you just go read his plan in the first place?
www.energy.gov/.../biden-clean-energy-plan-update-march-2023

[Astarlessnightsky]

Nope, its not. Why would it be a scam?

There are a lot of companies "greenwashing" their practices, which may be a scam or not. Some are actually doing good things others are just trying to maximize profits while pretending to do good.

[Siri137]

You're from Germany. Yes, that explains your naivete. "Why would it be a scam?" you ask, while giving a few reasons yourself why. Use that brain of yours.

[handsomelad70]

As all sorts of companies have done and will always do.

[Siri137]

@handsomelad70 And that's okay with you? That's acceptable, so long as they're doing (or pretending to do) their "bit for the environment"?

[handsomelad70]

@Siri137 No, I'm saying lots of companies feign being "green" when they're far from it, just as other companies pretend they're charitable. NONE of it is acceptable and must be brought to light.

[Astarlessnightsky]

green washing and green energy are two different things.

green energy like solar and wind is just using whats already there and transforming it into energy, with minimal pollution or harm to the environment forever.

Green washing is tricking customers into buying your polluting, environment destructing product by promising some sort of repair, while actually not doing a thing and just wanting to make profits as usuall hoping shit won't hit the fan in your lifetime.

[JacobJordan]

Best source of renewable energy is nuclear reactors. Not enough power cam be generated by wind. Solar is only 50 ish % effective. And hydro has wear and tear problems long term. If we want more sustainable/clean/renewable energy nuclear reactors are perfect

[exitseven]

Of course it is. Everyone who is pushing this is going to get rich from it. During the industrial revolution there were so many coal fired plants that soot would get deposited on the plant life and choke them out. We did not have global warming then. Anyone thinks they are saving the planet by driving a battery powered car is an idiot

[ProbablyClueless]

As things have unfolded, that's certainly how it appears. The infrastructure for everything except nuclear is an environmental warcrime to produce, it's insanely expensive, and the energy output is comparably low and unreliable.

Green energy initiatives aren't very productive if they result in coal power plants being fired up when energy needs can't be met through the renewables.

[llorando]

Green energy it's self isn't a scam, but a lot of the means at which were trying to achieve green energy is a scam. Eventually were going to run out of fossil fuels and renewable energy will be our only options, but we must do renewable in a way that isn't impacting the environment like wind turbine blades that can't be recycled.

[bolverk]

Yes - 'Green' energy is a scam (and I say that as someone who has researched the hell out of it) there is no 'end of life' recycling for the wind turbine blades or the glass of the solar panels and there is no convenient way to store any excess energy if there is any that is.

It makes sense for small 'off grid' applications where it is not economically viable to run in mains power or solar PV works out cheaper than mains power from a local utilities.

[Likes2drive]

They never think far enough ahead to know what to do with the waste of green energy like the batteries from electric cars and phones, if they ever figure out how to do that like they can with regular car batteries from a gas motor then maybe it will all be worth it and if the infrastructure could be made to handle being electric, but until then it’s really not practical

[BCA6010]

If nuclear power isn't being discussed, you can't have a serious conversation on the subject for anything large scale. Solar and wind are not, and never will be anywhere close to good enough.

[Daniela1982]

And any back up electrical generator is usually gas fired. It's all on how much money there is to be made. They killed Tesla because his ideas of free electrical energy stepped on some rich people's toes.

[DaveJord]

No, no, no... you got it all wrong. It is not supposed to save money. It's supposed to be good for the environment, because we are using renewable resources to generate energy.

[KostasKouvalis]

I think so. It isn't actually renewable as people claim. It's also much more expensive to produce and install. Not to mention all the negative externalities that are associated with their production

[normalice]

Of course not. That isn't to suggest we've properly figured it out but sustainability will be critical to the survival of civilization going forward.

[Sober_Irishman]

Pretty much. A combination of both a money making racket and a bunch of left wing virtue-signallers.

[DrPepper12]

Not a scam. Just in some ways aspirational Because we haven't developed the infrastructure and modeling for scaling it up.

[Nice222]

At least where I live it is. The government is promoting Solar panels meanwhile it’s cloudy and dark most days of the year. Also they won’t let you cut down trees so the panels can get full sun when it is out.

[loveslongnails]

Why would it be a scam to get your energy from things like the sun, wind, or water power?

[VV3ZZY123]

No it's just hard to impliment because most of the whole world runs on fossil fuels. We can't just Stop.

[war_daddy]

I just googled it and some companies have figured out how to recycle wind blades

[Kelly6]

@daniela1982 yes it’s a scam for governments to laundry money

[Kelly6]

@daniela1982
Cash some war money or louts lol

[AngryCarl]

If you know a way of producing energy with no downside be sure to let us know.

[Anonymous]

Yeah, it won't work especially when you consider the unsustainable global overpopulation issue

[WhitneySnow]

They should recycle the windmill blades

[itsclearlynicholas]

I just like hydrogen :)

[XXblack88]

It sure feels like it.

[worldscolide]

Lol unless it's nuclear, it's a scam.

[888theGreat]

Yes , just a reason to raise taxes

[negrl4a69]

Its all a scam the government is a sam

[gorydetails]

yes, it is.

[Pterodon]

Big scam

[RedInnocent69]

Yes and no.