'Nice Guy' Haters Need to Learn How to Distinguish 'Nice Guys' from Actual Nice Guys

[the_rake]

Dear 'nice guy' haters,

Not all nice guys are just pretending to be nice to get into a girls pants,

Not all nice guys are ugly, boring guys trying to get with women out of their league,

Not all nice guys lack the self-respect to call it quits with a woman not interested in them (the 'friendzone'),

Not all nice guys believe in the friendzone,

Some nice guys are more direct about their attraction to a woman,

Not all nice guys think they are owed sex,

Pointing out that the bad guys often get women doesn't mean you think you are owed sex,

Pointing out that some women play games like hot and cold doesn't mean the guy is not nice,

Pointing out that men are expected to do most of the work (approaching, paying for date, making most of the conversation, etc.) does not mean the guy is not nice,

Pointing out that it's ridiculously hard for some men to get a girlfriend does not mean the guy is not nice,

Pointing out that many women act ridiculously about doing things liks saying 'hi, how are you' on online dating does not mean that the guy is not nice,

Pointing out that many women expect guys to hold the burden of conversation does not mean the guy is not nice,

Pointing out that often times personality attributes like introversion, genuine compassion and analytical facilities are often unattractive to women does not mean that the guy is not nice,

Pointing out that some women have taken guys for a ride because they showed her niceness does not mean the guy thought he was owed sex.

Dear 'nice guy' haters,

Stop the hatred.

Stop trying to shame nice guys,

Stop trying to justify the bad decisions that some women make.

Stop telling them they need to suck it up and that it's their fault the way things are,

Stop telling them they're just pansies and beta males just because they are respectful to women and want to know why they are not successful.

Nice guy haters are hurting the wrong kinds of guys nowadays by offering generic and cliched advice to men with legitimate complaints and actual questions about how they can improve and become more successful with women. These people are hurting actual nice guys by giving them illegitimate criticism and trying to help the kind of guy (the so-called 'nice guy') that will never listen to them anyway.

In many ways, the nice guy hater has become worse than the fake 'nice guy' internet phenomenon - yes that's right, the nice guy hater is worse than pretend 'nice guys'. That's because people pay attention to the ideas and misconceptions of the latter and in doing so, his ideas and misconceptions about women actually become more popular and well-spread - not less popular. Yes, that's right nice guy haters: by attempting to address this type of man's concerns you are not only hurting genuine nice guys, but you are helping to spread around the types of false beliefs that the fake 'nice guy' holds.

[ReboundyJimmy]

A thousand thumbs up for this one!

I would also add that all forms of negativity from one person to another fall under the category of just being shitty because your life sucks.

Racists, homophobes, sexists, the Neomasculinity "feminists are to blame" movement, crazy Right-Wingers, crazy Regressive Leftists, all of them. They are defusing responsibility for their own unhappiness by dumping on groups of people and it's too obvious.

Happy people help others when they're down and not kick them with some passive-aggressive, holier than thou Dr. Phil "tough love" bullshit.

The same thing goes for picking on any guy who struggles with women. All of this Alpha-Beta talk is silly.

However, if I could ad one nuance here (from a guy's perspective), a lot of Nice Guy hate comes from former Nice Guys who are passionate about being more authentic - because they have deeply rooted pain from being shit on by women and life when they were too nice.

Still, a true "Alpha" would always help another guy who needs it because he's above labels and he is a stand up guy who derives no benefit from putting others down.

Lesson: Labels are dumb. Just be cool to everyone, even if they're struggling. Then, you'll look awesome to everyone because you ARE awesome.

Author's note: Damn, this rant came out pretty good! Definitely going on the blog...

[the_rake]

' a lot of Nice Guy hate comes from former Nice Guys who are passionate about being more authentic - because they have deeply rooted pain from being shit on by women and life when they were too nice. '

I was gonna answer this but you answered for me:

'Still, a true "Alpha" would always help another guy who needs it because he's above labels and he is a stand up guy who derives no benefit from putting others down. '

Basically yeah. Although I identify with guys that have 'risen from the ashes', so to speak, I believe that the self-improvement stage is just 'stage #2' so to speak (although actually, self-improvement continues for the rest of your life). Learning to empathise with the guys trying to go through the same process you have already been through is 'stage #3'.

'Definitely going on the blog...'

Haha, thanks man. I definitely need to get a blog.

[aliceinwonderland69]

So I'm not allowed to talk about misogyny because it is just advertising those views making people more misogynistic. So by logical extension no one is allowed to criticise any view they don't agree with in case they make it more prolific.

So no one is allowed to speak up against hatred. No one is allowed to criticise sexism, racism homophobia or any form of bigotry. I would imagine that without dissenting voices hatred would become much more acceptable.

If your allowed to criticise female behaviour then I'm allowed to counter critique. That's how debate works. You can't have your cake and eat it. Why should only men get free speech?

This is just another misogynistic attempt to silence women.

[ArchDruidMordred]

And just how is the concept of men bringing up legitimate concerns and asking reasonable questions of "why" and "how" that don't bash women in any way misogynistic?

[aliceinwonderland69]

In the take, as I read it, he distinguishes between two types of nice guys; one that is nice and one that is misogynistic. In the last two paragraphs he claims that talking about the misogynistic 'nice guys' just advertises their views and makes them more prolific.

Now, if I take this to its logical extension, what he is saying is that people can't disagree with other views openly for fear of advertising the opposing view and achieving the opposite of their aim to disparage it. So no one is allowed to criticise anyone. So there can be no debate.

This is a very irrational justification for silencing people who speak up against misogyny. I think it is misogynistic to tell women they cannot criticise misogynists. Just like I think it would be racist to tell black people they can't talk about racism. So he is just another dumb misogynist trying to silence women who speak up against misogyny.

[the_rake]

' Now, if I take this to its logical extension, what he is saying is that people can't disagree with other views openly for fear of advertising the opposing view '

You'd be surprised how damning and frustrating it is when a point of view you have is blatantly washed out and ignored.

[aliceinwonderland69]

How have I miusnderstood you?

[the_rake]

@aliceinwonderland

that was not directed at you, it was more of a general comment. the strategy is actually part of the Socratic method: the sophists would cunningly frustrate their opponents in a debate by avoiding the inconvenient arguments that were difficult to tackle and arguing against more convenient stuff. sometimes they would even make up arguments that their opponents had not used themselves - a logical fallacy known as the 'strawman'. Socrates adapted this method by arguing in a reasonable manner - not trying to pull apart every single argument (because that would be impossible in fast paced and lively discussions), but by waiting until the opponent had finished and then deconstructing the strongest arguments only. Eventually this evolved from 'debate' into 'discussion': people no longer tried to beat each other down, but they tried instead to work on building a constructive theory together.

[aliceinwonderland69]

I believe my style of argumentation is more Socratic than sophistical. I was exposing the flaw in your reasoning. I think my reconstruction was fair. This criticism was directed at the last two paragraphs.

[the_rake]

'I believe my style of argumentation is more Socratic than sophistical'

And I did not mean to infer anything differently. I was merely illustrating the point that sometimes it is better to ignore a harmful point of view than unwittingly give that idea credit and help it to spread by acknowledging it.

But as for your comment, the take is not about defending women from misogynism per se. I am actually defending nice guys from misandrist generalisations. As a side effect, I am actually pointing out that this also happens (ironically) to be most strategic way to combat misogynistic sentiments from fake 'nice guys'. You address the concerns of the legitimate nice guys and ignore the misogynistic hatred from 'nice guys'. Real nice guys win and women win: the 'nice guys' lose.

[aliceinwonderland69]

Well you cannot fight hate with hate but I do not think ignoring misogyny will make it go away, if only that was the case.

[the_rake]

well ignoring misogynism is one thing. the whole 'nice guy' thing is just a small and mostly irrelevant part of misogynism. there are much more dangerous misogynists out there. be a Socrates: fight them instead :)

[aliceinwonderland69]

This is another thing that men do. Just because there are worse things isn't a reason not to deal with the less bad things. I could do the same do you and say; stop moaning about nice guy hate go and tackle world poverty instead.

[the_rake]

well obviously I'm invested in this for personal reasons. some people are not even invested personally, they just want to call these guys little bitches and beta males or whatever. the feminists that do happen to be personally invested are attacking the wrong guys all together. some guys - 'alpha males' - that recovered from their own introversion or whatever think they can lend a helping hand by saying 'pull your boot straps up', but they aren't doing much good either. what needs to happen is for people to become less ignorant about these nice guy stereotypes and to offer real, constructive advice. women - as a whole - need to stop being so manipulative, e. g. sending confusing signals, stop playing hot & cold, refusing to approach guys they are attracted to then complaining when they don't go up to them, stop dating men with narcissistic/sociopathic tendencies and then complaining they don't get nice guys, etc., etc. this is why I need to write these takes.

[Panay]

Just want to point out: misogynistic doesn't mean 'guys who are twats' -it refers to people who hate or are prejudice towards women

[the_rake]

@Panay

gotcha. It's just kind of difficult to defend both nice guys and misogynists in one take, if you catch my drift ;-)

[Chief16]

@aliceinwonderland69 why would a misogynist whine about not getting into a woman's pants? Misogynists hate women. Nice guys, on the other hand, are desperate for them.

[aliceinwonderland69]

First of all you can be prejudice towards someone without necessarily hating them. Second of all just because you fuck someone doesn't mean your not prejudice towards them. Saying you can't be prejudice towards someone because you fuck them is like saying your not racist becuase you have a black freind. There's plenty of misogynistic men that fuck women. Think of all the PUAs like Roosh V. By your reasoning only a gay guy could be a misogynist but there are plenty of misogynistic straight guys.

[Chief16]

@aliceinwonderland69 yeah but how does deseparate go along with hate? I mean to why would Misogynists be 'nice' to women they hate to have sex with them?

[aliceinwonderland69]

To get sex. I think your being very naive if you think straight men can't hate women. The Internet is full of straight male hate towards women. Check out a site like Return of Kings.

[Chief16]

@aliceinwoderland69 lol, ok. So we going there now? You tell me what is your idea of 'nice' guys and I'll tell you what's mine, simple no?

[Chief16]

@aliceinwonderland69

[aliceinwonderland69]

@Chief16

The world is full of genuinely nice guys. Most guys that I meet are nice. However if you sit behind a computer and tippy tappy type a post about how your nice and don't get laid you are a misogynist. Because you are implying sex should be a reward for good behaviour. Otherwise why make the correlation. Why not say you have brown eyes or a blue car and can't get laid. The only reason to make the correlation is if you think there is a link.

[Panay]

But that's not what a misogynist is... Sure you'd have to be a horribly self sympathising dick, but that's not the same as misogyny. I think this just comes down to you not really understanding the definition...

[aliceinwonderland69]

It is misogynistic because it's implying women should have sex with men who are nice as a reward for good behaviour. Women shouldn't have to have sex with men for any other reason than they genuinely desire and choose to. To imply otherwise is a denial of female sexual autonomy. This is the foundation of most misogynistic practice throughout human history. Sexual, bodily and reproductive autonomy is s fundamental human right. To deny someone autonomy is to deny them humanity. If I say I don't hate black people I just don't think they should be allowed to leave the house, this is still racist. You don't have to hate someone to be prejudice towards them.

[Panay]

Yeah ok fair enough. But that doesn't really explain why the article itself is misogynistic; all it's saying is that people should differentiate between genuine nice guys and ''misogynistic' nice guys

[aliceinwonderland69]

I didn't intend to imply the article was misogynist. But I don't like being told I can't criticise nice guys cod some of them are.

[the_rake]

@aliceinwonderland69

From what I have read, you are still making the mistake of not distinguishing the two types of nice guy. If you really want to criticise one type then you need to be clear what the attributes it is you are criticising. For example, like I have already highlighted lots of nice guys are both genuinely nice, assertive and have many attractive features (inside and out). So if you want to criticise men that are none of these things, try to shoot way above their league and then also expect ' things' in return for the favours they give, then this fine as long as you are specifying. This goes for not just for your discussion here, but *feminist* discussions of nice guys in general. Simply acknowledge that there are men who are correct in the criticisms that they make of certain female dating strategies and then you (and other *feminists*) are free to say what you want about the misogynistic men without invoking backlash from the former category.

[Chief16]

And that's exactly why a nice guy shouldn't be described from the perspective of a woman. Let's just stop giving a damn about what women think about us for a second, the actual nice guys will start showing up then.
49.media.tumblr.com/.../...udJ0jC1rz4xj6o1_400.gif
Good Take.

[the_rake]

' And that's exactly why a nice guy shouldn't be described from the perspective of a woman. '

Yes, yes, yes!

[aliceinwonderland69]

So women aren't allowed to talk about misogyny? Are black people allowed to talk about racism? I would love it if you 'genuine nice guys' started calling out misogyny but I don't see it happening.

[the_rake]

@aliceinwonderland69

I think we need to separate political, economic and sexual misogyny from the mere act of 'being a nice guy'

[Panay]

@aliceinwonderland69 I'm confused. where does misogyny enter into this? It's a completely separate topic.

[Chief16]

@aliceinwonderland69 pray tell, how is it misogyny?

[aliceinwonderland69]

The premise of the post as I understand is to distinguish between real nice guys and misogynistic nice guys. The advice being to leave nice guys alone in case we offend the genuine ones.

[the_rake]

@aliceinwonderland69 like I said earlier, it's primarily about defending nice guys (the genuine nice guys) from misandrist assertions. I don't necessarily care how women tackle the issue of misogynism - that is a very broad topic and arguably, fake ' nice guy ism' is just a small part of it. All I know is that they should leave the genuine nice guys out of it.

[Panay]

@aliceinwonderland69 Intrhink the idea was to make people more aware then anything else, and to encourage people to not lump people who are genuinely nice with people who pretend to be, or think they are owed something for their behaviour

[the_rake]

@Panay and also mentioning attractiveness is important because one criticism of nice guys is that they are always shooting above their league (which would indeed be a shallow and not so nice behaviour - hypocritical, if they are dating according to looks but expecting women not to). however I show that this is not necessarily the case, and often times attractive nice guys are being rejected it has nothing to do with how they look.

[BuchitaBuchys]

I agree. But it's the same discussion as feminists vs feminazis.
The vocal minority tainted the name/label too much.

I don't hate nice people. And I try to distinguish "nice" guys (the cliche, entitled, undercover women haters) from genuine and kind guys. Because we like kind men who treat us AND EVERYONE else with respect. Because that's their personality, not just for a relationship or sex.

[the_rake]

'But it's the same discussion as feminists vs feminazis.'

This is the reason why I was careful not to mention 'feminism' in the mytake, but I have a few things to say about this also - which deserves a separate mytake, in all honesty.

[BuchitaBuchys]

If it's pro feminism, don't even bother lol many of these people will shove their fingers in their ears and rather not hear it.
But if it's anti fem, you'll fit right in lol

[the_rake]

I'm neither pro nor anti. I am an egalitarian :)

[Anonymous]

Don't worry nice guys women will want you when they are in their 30's.

scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/.../...92719197_n.jpg

[the_rake]

lucky nice guys, they get to wait until they are in their 30s and then maybe if they are lucky, they get all the worn out whores.

[Applefan1]

Thank you!!! someone had to say it!!! I am fed up of actually being a nice person and being abused for it. It makes me wonder why I even bother being nice. Great take mate. :)

[OlderAndWiser]

Dear Kindred Spirit:

www.girlsaskguys.com/.../a26222-there-are-two-types-of-nice-guys-one-type-isn-t-nice

[the_rake]

thank you,
yes, with hindsight my comment was harsh but I still feel that this take of yours misses certain details.

[OlderAndWiser]

Yes, my comments were explanatory and yours were more chastising. I assume you have encountered significant frustration with this issue.

[the_rake]

Yes, although one should not assume. With respect, although my comments were indeed chastising, there were certain elements that you neglected to mention in the discussion about nice guys (which has become a much broader topic than it originated as).

[OlderAndWiser]

Yes, I try not to assume I made the comment trusting that you would correct me if I was wrong.

[the_rake]

[PART 1]

Well, I appreciate your effort. If you wanted corrections, I tagged them onto the original comment:

" People need to acknowledge a few basic facts. Most people already know that it is not all black and white as 'nice versus not nice' and that not all nice guys are nice just to get sex. What needs to be recognised is that there are plenty of confident, attractive men out there with genuine motivations getting shunned and quite frankly treated appallingly by many women. What also needs to be acknowledged is that men are entitled to their standards just as much as women. If a guy cares about looks on a woman then so what? Just because a woman is looking for personality factors doesn't mean she is looking for good qualities. Plenty of men are favoured just because of their dominating and otherwise manipulative attributes. This is where the ' nice guy ' topic needs to be shifted. The whole Jenna Marbles internet fixation with nice guy shaming...

[the_rake]

[PART 2]

"... tacks simply brings a host of equally erroneous assumptions and fallacies about what constitutes a 'nice-guy' and just as damaging (if not more so) than what any of these internet white-knight key board warriors had to say before hand. They're are guys with legitimate concerns and they are being marginalised by both parties (the self-identified 'nice guys' and the feminists who can only see two colours: black and white)."

[OlderAndWiser]

I concur with your sentiments.

[the_rake]

Well, thank you.

This is why I decided the topic decided a take in and of itself - because there were certain generalisations about the nice guy that had not been covered before and therefore I wrote about them in this take.

[OlderAndWiser]

Sometimes, topics require being covered from several different perspectives, and sometimes, topics just need repetition so that an idea eventually takes hold in a receptive mind. That's why I never complain about takes or questions being repeated (except for the penis size questions.)

[the_rake]

Yes, I agree that is important to look at things from different perspectives. That is why, if you are to repeat a certain subject, it should indeed be looked at from a new and original perspective. This is what I like about my own take (please excuse my lack of self-deprecation) - I have covered the 'nice guy' topic from a completely new and original perspective by focussing on attractiveness (something that nobody else has done thus far, but genuineness has been looked at many times before).

[MrMaskyMoon]

I pretend to be nice because I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings... I sometimes accidentally manipulate people without realising... I don't mean to hurt anyone but the nice guy thing is not so simple my friend..

[the_rake]

'I pretend to be nice because I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings'

Then if you do not want to hurt people's feelings, it is genuine. People that pretend to be nice do so for the sake of appearances because they want to be seen in a favourable light.

' I don't mean to hurt anyone but the nice guy thing is not so simple my friend'

Yes, I realise that it is not so simple. In my take there is a list of factors I did not account for, e. g. nice guys in a lower league that do not chase models but frustrated with lesser attractive women regardless, guys that are sometimes nice but not always, people having different perceptions of what is meant by niceness... the list goes on and on.

However, I believe that on the whole, I have cleared up more misconceptions than I have created. In particular, I have cleared up the most fundamental misconceptions related to attractiveness and authenticity.

[MrMaskyMoon]

Sorry bro I misunderstood your points. Although English is my first language I tend to take things weirdly. Thank you for your response though :)

[the_rake]

that's ok, I had thought myself that even this take does not take into account all of the factors involved.

[dominiquois]

I've never met a sane person that hated genuinely nice person. Unless you have no social skills then most people can tell the difference between genuine niceness and fake niceness after a while.

[the_rake]

there are lots of takes on this site that express this sentiment in my view - that nice guys think the world owes them and that they are bitter just because they cannot get some girl out of their league.

www.girlsaskguys.com/.../a26030-the-irony-of-nice-guys

www.girlsaskguys.com/.../a25841-guys-we-can-take-the-hate

www.girlsaskguys.com/.../a26483-guest-feature-expert-april-masini-explains-why-nice-guys-finish-last

There was also this jenna marbles video about nice guys that falls prey to all of the fallacies and nice guy generalisations I mention in the take:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VXXXX9iVPI

The video actually makes me feel a little sick, just because everything she says sounds so glib and conceited. She really either has no idea what she is saying, or she says these things because she does not care who she hurts.

[dominiquois]

Well its true. Every time I like a nice guy as a person whether he was ugly or handsome I liked the fact that he was nice. But just because you're nice doesn't mean I want you to stick your dick in me. Jenna Marbles 90% of what she said was true even though you might have not liked they're delivery. Beautiful girls most of the time like beautiful men. Rich people like other rich people. Successful people usually stick to other successful people. Intelligent people with other intelligent people. When you have something that is highly prized and sought after you become the prize. That's just the cold-blooded truth. A beautiful woman is not very common so she will have a huge number of guys to CHOOSE from because if she weren't so beautiful she wouldn't have all those men after her. Since the woman controls reproduction beautiful or not then the women gets to decide whether she A) wants you specifically or B) even wants to have sex/reproduce. I don't know blame God.

[dominiquois]

Women do the choosing regardless of what they look like because they have to be the ones to open their legs. A beautiful woman being a woman knows this. She says why on earth would I let somebody I find ugly to use my body. Why should they be happy when I'm disgusted? I'm the beautiful one and I have options! So obviously they're going to use their golden ticket to find their golden prince (and then maybe kick him out I don't know lol). Rich people do the same thing. Why should a poor person leech off of me when I'm the one with the money. That's why people seek they're equal because unequal relationships are parasitical. Of course there are beautiful women that waste their beauty on ugly men but they are not the majority. Having said that nice guys that act nice ONLY to impress a girl are doing it for shallow, dishonest reasons. If the girl were unattractive they would not be as nice or flat out mean. Beautiful women know this and hate this. So that's why they're usually picky.

[the_rake]

' But just because you're nice doesn't mean I want you to stick your dick in me. '

This would be a stellar example of the phenomena that I have described in the my take. Your statement makes all kinds of underlying assumptions: it assumes that the nice guy does not have the other kinds of attributes you might be attracted to. It assumes that the nice guy would WANT to stick his dick in you, or that he is just being nice to you because he wants sex with you. It assumes many, many things and it is a phenomenon I see all over GAG, the internet and life in general. Lots of fear and prejudices about what it means to be nice. In short to be nice in this day and age you have to open yourself up and be extremely vulnerable, because nobody will believe that you are nice. They will test you, attack you, probe you, make you 'prove' your worth, and even then they will treat you with scepticism. It is a great strength to remain nice.

[dominiquois]

So basically the reason why women hate fake nice guys vs real nice guys is because nobody likes a liar or a fraud. People are nice because they're SUPPOSED TO BE. You don't get free beautiful stuff for doing what you're supposed to be doing.

[the_rake]

p. s. I disagreed with the delivery AND content of the Jenna Marbles video. I explained my position on this video in a separate mytake, even tempted to make a youtube video myself in response.

www.girlsaskguys.com/.../a24132-niceness-might-not-be-sufficient-but-it-is-necessary

For example, she said ''I'd say 90% of the time guys say [nice guys finish last], it's about some reeeeally hot girl... my problem here, my friend is, you're f**king swinging for the fences'

Apart from being phrased in such an obnoxious manner, this statement is totally invalid. It is a prime example of 'nice guy hatred' I demonstrated in the original article. I would maybe even go as far as to call this phenomena 'misandry'.

[dominiquois]

No it isn't invalid. If you're being realistic most all the fake nice guys aren't faking their niceness to impress an ugly girl. They're trying to impress an attractive one. Whether or not the girl is better looking than guy is irrelevant because they guy is being fake in order to attract her to him. If he didn't like her he would just show his true self because he wouldn't care. So to say thats not true is to be disingenuous. Frustrations with these fake nice guys come when they're little show DOES NOT pay off. They feel like they did all of that for nothing. AND THEY SHOULD. They're too stupid to realize that the girls attraction for him is dedicated purely by the whims of the girl. Even if you were in her league and good-looking like her it does NOT guarantee she'll like you. She might not like you for something "stupid" like your hair is too blonde. The women controls reproduction the women does the choosing. It's like this in most animal species too.

[dominiquois]

The worse part is that male animals have more common sense than male humans a lot of the time and they have no ability to reason. A lot of slut shaming is in fact because the guy is angry that he didn't get the sex he thought he deserved and that she gave it to another male he finds himself superior too. So what is this type of retards first response? To attack the woman. He doesn't realize that the woman is doing what she is supposed to be doing which is having sex with men he's only angry that its not him. Like you don't see a male animal get angry at the female animal of his species and calls her a slut. Why? Because she's doing what she's designed to do. He fights and kills the OTHER males, the competition.

[dominiquois]

*Not saying you should fight and kill other male humans. Lol. With humans the woman chooses.

[the_rake]

' If you're being realistic most all the fake nice guys aren't faking their niceness to impress an ugly girl. '

So, this statement of yours is wrong for many reasons and would be another example of the phenomena I describe in the mytake.

For one thing, you are conflating the two types of nice guy because you are talking about fake nice guys faking their niceness and not being nice to ugly girls. The kind of nice guy I am describing - that gets stick for being nice and identified as fake - would be nice to ugly girls.

For another thing you're attacking a position I did not even hold. What I had in mind was that maybe the nice guy is not talking about some really hot girl. Or maybe he is, but maybe he is hot too. Maybe the attraction was reciprocated but for whatever reason he got treated like shit.

Are you starting to see how common and prevalent nice guy prejudice in our society? That you hold these underlying beliefs without even realising until I point them out to you?

[dominiquois]

I'm not saying that fake nice guys can't face their niceness to ugly girls. I'm just saying is that they're not usually faking for no reason. There is a reason they are being fake. Maybe its to hide the fact that they're actually sociopaths. But if they're not the only reason to fake something is to escape some type of punishment or to get a reward. Now, I'm not saying this is true in every case. But why would a fake nice guy fake niceness to a girl he does not care to impress? It makes no sense. If he's trying to impress a girl with his fake niceness its because he's afraid of rejection, he's afraid that if he shows his true not nice self the girl he likes will not like him. For example. if a slightly chubby woman is wearing a corset to give the appearance of a smooth hourglass figure she is faking. Now, she could be doing it because she truly likes it. But IF she's doing it TO IMPRESS she's NOT going to do it to impress guys she doesn't want to talk to she's going to do it for...

[the_rake]

Some other points you make need addressing also, by the way I recommend after this discussion you re-read and really absorb the content of the article. I realise this sounds condescending but sometimes you simply do not get the point of something until you have done a very deep meditation on it.

'They're too stupid to realize that the girls attraction for him is dedicated purely by the whims of the girl.'

Yes, I get this but like you said yourself, sometimes looks and other attributes are not sufficient to attract a woman. Time needs to be spent and dedicated on factors like rapport building and developing strong emotions (escalation). It sometimes takes a long time for a woman to know when she is attracted. The least she could do is make her intentions known and clear: let the man know from the start where she stands.

[the_rake]

' It's like this in most animal species too. '

This is known as the naturalism fallacy. In short, just because something is natural does not make it right. As for attraction, there is no right or wrong - it depends on what you like. But this does not mean we cannot be civil in the way we go about things.

[dominiquois]

the guys she wants to talk to and impress. Whether she engages with men she feds attractive or not she is still being fake. Same thing with fake nice people. Whether or not they are doing it to impress they are being fake are not truly nice. If THEY ARE doing it to impress they will USUALLY only do it to impress people they find attractive. Or if they're psycho they're faking niceness to blend in as a normal human being but that has nothing to do with impressing people. A truly nice guy will be nice WITHOUT SEEKING BENEFITS OR LOOKING TO IMPRESS. They're not trying to impress anyone or hide who they are. They are like that because they are truly that way and WANT to be that way.
Its really not that hard to understand.

[the_rake]

'I'm not saying that fake nice guys can't face their niceness to ugly girls.'

And there, you are making the same mistake again because I'm not talking about fake nice guys faking anything. I am talking about real authentic nice guys being totally misunderstood. Again, this is an example of the socially warped ideas about niceness and if there is nothing else for you to take on board from the mytake (which you have misinterpreted and I do recommend you re-read), then take this point.

With this in mind, what you said about a chubby woman wearing a corset is a bad example. Maybe a better reference would be a beautiful, slender woman wearing a corset and people thinking, "well, if she's wearing a corset it's because she's fat! what is she hiding?"

'Its really not that hard to understand.'

Actually, I do understand. The problem is that we are both emotionally invested in differing points of view and all the reasoning in the world will not change that.

[dominiquois]

You completely missed the point with the animal example. The point what to address slut shaming and violence against women that some human men do when they are rejected. You don't see the male species kill the female part of the animal species they're from BECAUSE THEY SPECIFICALLY SLEPT WITH OTHER MALES or because they rejected their mating dance or escaped their attempts to mate. So maybe human males should keep that in mind.
But that is beside the point. Yes, when a woman rejects a man yes, personally, I don't think she needs to be rude. And with physical attraction there is no right or wrong. I pretty much agree. But rude people exist. What can you do? Nothing.

[the_rake]

slut-shaming is too much of a diversion, let's stay on topic. besides, the kind of guy I'm describing would not do that and my point about the naturalism fallacy is still sound.

[the_rake]

'Yes, when a woman rejects a man yes, personally, I don't think she needs to be rude.'

It's not about her being rude - although yes she should avoid that as well. It's about her assuming some bullshit about how the guy was just trying to be nice to get into her knickers.

[dominiquois]

Oh in that case, yes genuine nice guys are often misunderstood. People accuse them of being fake when they are being nice or having hidden agendas. That I can understand. I can understand that not all men are faking niceness because they want to get in your pants.

That makes no sense.
And actually a slender, curvaceous woman wearing a corset is not being misleading because she's ALREADY slender and curvaceous. I'm talking about how women who fake a physical aspect are like men who fake a personality trait are the same in concept. A slender, curvaceous woman wearing a corset is NOT BEING FAKE. A chubby woman with little shape IS BEING FAKE because she is hiding her true form under the corset. The corset is designed to make you look more slender and curvy. And she's using it to become something she is not. A fake nice guy ACTS fake to pretend to be nice to get rewards and escape punishments.

[dominiquois]

Yeah it's not always correct to assume. I agree. The reality is is that a woman is not going to trust a stranger just because he seems nice. He could be a rapist pretending to be nice. I'm not saying it's a good thing to be paranoid but in a world full of evil you have to be cautious. Sometimes the most angelic looking people are actually very demonic. Women and men normally EXPECT other men and women to be nice because they have to be. Its about keeping the peace.
You see you're not looking at it from the female point of view. Women have to protect themselves from predatory men. Men don't OFTEN need to protect themselves from predatory females. It's simply not the same in men.

[the_rake]

This discussion is very confused since there are many diverting tangents now and it is difficult to know what you are responding to. I don't think we will make much headway because I admit I am emotionally invested in this - since I feel that women have treated me in this negative way also - and you probably have your own qualms about so called 'nice guys'. Maybe we could talk through pm if you wanted but I doubt either of us would change our opinions because it is emotion and not fact or logic that is the motivator of human morale.

[dominiquois]

The human morale is based on not destroying others. Thats all it is.

[the_rake]

Respectfully, I think that this is a shallow conceptualisation of the human morale - not something I would even begin to elaborate upon.

[dominiquois]

Obviously it goes much deeper than that but for the sake of space and time that is the simplest way I can put it. Most things that are considered bad is because they are destructive such as death, rape, torture, verbal abuse etc. Most things that are considered good are beneficial to such as exercising, being rich, being attractive, being intelligent. You have to understand that humans (not just us) have a strong built in drive for self-preservation anything that threatens that is considered bad.

[the_rake]

' a slender, curvaceous woman wearing a corset is not being misleading because she's ALREADY slender and curvaceous. '

Right, and that's my point. A genuine, authentic nice guy is not being misleading either when he does something nice. That's why I thought your analogy of a chubby woman wearing a corset was a bad one.

[Curious_Jane]

Wow... this is one heated discussion.

[the_rake]

'The reality is is that a woman is not going to trust a stranger just because he seems nice. He could be a rapist pretending to be nice. '

Talking about strangers and rapists and stuff is another massive tangent. Most nice guys establish long-term rapport first. Ok this is not the only way to do it and I agree that this is a bad idea if the woman has already directly shown disinterest but we are assuming a lot when you say something like, 'well nice guys get this response off women because they don't trust strangers'. So what, else? They will trust a guy that has shown no acts of kindness, just some body that swept her off her feet and took her straight to the bedroom?

[dominiquois]

Oh I see. I was comparing the chubby woman wearing a corset to the a guy that truly fakes being nice not to the genuine nice guy.

[dominiquois]

And make no mistake women can fake been nice or other things to get benefits as well so it by no means only applies to men. Women can fake being nice for the same reasons too.

[the_rake]

' Oh I see. I was comparing the chubby woman wearing a corset to the a guy that truly fakes being nice not to the genuine nice guy. '

I know, this is a mistake you keep on making. Remember the mytake is about guys that are GENUINELY. NICE. Do you begin to see how many different assumptions are constantly being made about what constitutes a 'nice guy'?

[the_rake]

' And make no mistake women can fake been nice or other things to get benefits as well so it by no means only applies to men. Women can fake being nice for the same reasons too. '

The same analogy would completely apply in the exact same manner with regards to the way a man might treat (or mistreat) a genuinely nice lady also.

[dominiquois]

That probably because "nice" is subjective. Sometimes a genuine nice guy will do nice things for women like open a door only to have a woman yell at him for being misogynistic. Not every interprets nice the same way for a variety of reasons. And it's actually not easy to prove if somebody is being genuinely nice. Also, not everyone does nice things all the time. I'm pretty sure most people have lied, or been moody, or said something stupid and offensive at some point. So people are constantly going between the spectrum of absolute destruction and absolute creation or "good and evil".

[the_rake]

that is a better argument, I think than the other ones.

this is why it's intent you should judge 'niceness' by, not consequence. different people like and respond to different consequences. with the correct intent, not only do you want to do well, you make sure you do well by the right person. in your example, we could say that the nice guy, though he means well on some superficial level, he does not really try to make sure first that the woman would respond well and not take offense at this gesture. a better example of a nice guy meaning, and doing well would be an egalitarian nice guy, for example who knows that a woman likes to see herself as independent, and therefore does not do things like hold doors open for, and based on sentiment she has expressed, he knows that she would prefer to initiate contact. so he lets her do this. also because he himself is egalitarian at heart, he does not bother with the traditionalist girls that would prefer the opposite.

[dominiquois]

Yeah I think egalitarians in general tend to be nice because they value justice and fairness. You can be a completely angelic person and do things like feed the poor, volunteer with sick children with cancer, donate money to those sick children and some crazy person will still think you're being fake and mean. You can never really know what to expect indefinitely. I think if somebody who knows they are nice-natured then they don't care if people think they're not.

[the_rake]

Thank you, I am glad we have come to such a conclusion :)

[the_rake]

I would just add that if people think this about the genuinely nice guy, it is the nice guys loss also, not just other people's. This does not make the nice guy entitled to their gratitude or company because nobody owes them still (as other people are always so quick to point out, ' the world does not owe you '). I am simply describing things the way they are.

[dominiquois]

Yeah :)
I think though if a person like that is so genuinely awesome and nice even thought they themselves might feel loss in the end its often the other persons loss because genuinely nice people are not so common. They bring a positive vibe wherever they go that is why they often have so many friends. I do want to point out that just because somebody is nice doesn't mean you have to treat them like a doormat. I absolute HATE when people do that to nice people. It pisses me off so much.

[the_rake]

let's say for the sake of argument there is 1 nice guy in the world and 9 cretins. the cretins feel resentment towards the nice guy because they think he thinks he is better than them. the nice guy is just trying to be nice. the cretins gang up together and exclude the nice guy from all their activities so that they don't feel insecure about the nice guy being around them. this means the cretins all have each other to hang out with, even if they are cretins and everything they say and do is totally uninteresting and a little bit stupid. the nice guy has nobody and nothing, just himself. who loses out the most? obviously the nice guy because he has nothing but his own company for the rest of his life and nothing else to say or do. it is just him - one nice guy - in the whole universe.

[dominiquois]

I'm sorry I don't agree.
Obviously the nice guy is vastly morally superior than all of them that is why they feel like shit and are jealous of him because they are shit people and they KNOW it. Does loneliness suck? Yes often times it does. But it is better to be alone than in bad company. I agree with that saying wholeheartedly.
Why does the angel of a nice guy have to associate with the demonic, vile cretins. He is only sullying his purity. He has nothing in common with them. Even if he does hang out with them he would be disgusted by their behavior.
In reality they lose out the most because the nice guy can teach them how to be better nicer people and they miss out on his philosophies and his positive ambience. You can't mix the dirty with the clean.
If you had the option to hang out with crackheads or be by yourself please tell me you'll be by yourself on a beautiful beach than be around crackheads.

[the_rake]

' But it is better to be alone than in bad company. '

I'm not sure about this. It is better to be alone than harassed, bullied etc. but I think if your friends are cretins but they are good to you - e. g. your favourite pass-time is putting other people down rather than bullying each other - then I think you will be better off than if you were just by yourself all the time. but I think overall, both groups lose.

we could change this around too so it is 1 nice guy in the world, 3 cretin guys and 6 cretin girls. the 6 cretin girls prefer to be shared around the 3 cretin guys even though there is only 3 of them and 1 nice guy and the nice guy is more physically attractive and interesting, etc. than the 3 cretin guys. they just do not want to be with the nice guy because they see niceness as a weakness. I think in this scenario, all parties lose, but I think again the nice guy loses most because there are no nice girls for him, so it is understandable if he becomes bitter.

[the_rake]

in this fictional world, also there are no beautiful beaches, no books, etc. just concrete walls, stone benches and grey skies, everywhere. this is the entire universe. and there is just one nice guy.

[dominiquois]

What if they want to kill him? Well either he becomes like Jesus Christ and hangs out with cretins or he lives alone. WAIT... didn't Jesus get killed by cretins for hanging out with other cretins. Awkward...

[the_rake]

I realise you are laughing, understand this is a thought experiment because if a nice guy comes online and complains e. g. that girls do not want to sleep with him and guys do not want to hang out with him that it is because he is not genuinely nice and that the girls and guys do not owe him. so in this thought experiment I am highlighting that while he could never be owed anything, perhaps it could be the case that he has a right to be pissed off and vent steam in some hypothetical universe. and then we begin to see how hypothetical universe translates into the real world once we have agreed about the circumstances.

[dominiquois]

Frustration and anger is an ok emotion to have. Like if somebody rejected me that I really liked I would be bummed out but I wouldn't get angry. I feel anger when a see an injustice. It's not an injustice if the guy rejects me, he has the RIGHT to reject me. The only thing to do is to get over it. Anger becomes bad when it turns into violence like what the psycho Elliot Rodgers did.

[the_rake]

yeah.

basically, I think if somebody is frustrated people need to stop saying things like, "oh what a beta bitch little faggot" or whatever. because this is the kind of thing that pissed off elliot rodger (he went on lots of sites like this, also went on PUAhate sites, bodybuilding. com, etc., etc.) and eventually he went out and went crazy. this is not to let the guy off the hook, but we cannot ignore the role that 'society' plays, and when it comes to genuinely nice guys who would never dream of doing the things elliot rodger did, I think it is also important that we do not treat these guys like shit heads. e. g. if they are talking about a girl that was a bitch to them - maybe they are right, this girl was a bitch and therefore they need to learn the coping mechanisms and also how to find a girl that is not a bitch (because otherwise the guy will eventually go crazy from loneliness). also, if he points out lots of people are stuck in this high school...

[the_rake]

... immature popularity contest frame of mind, we need to acknowledge there may be some truth to these objections. nobody can say that these guys OWE the nice guy to hang out with him. nobody can say that they should be forced against their will, punished (e. g. with physical violence like elliot rodger did). but we could instead say to ourselves, "ok, perhaps there is some truth what this guy is saying about these idiots." then we say to the nice guy, "ok, this is what you could do better to avoid these types of idiots, this is what you could do to meet the right people, etc., etc."

[dominiquois]

Yes exactly. It is about meeting the right people. Some people are simply mean and horrible people and the only thing that can be done is to avoid them.
Elliot Rodgers was severely mentally ill. He had Aspergers and Narcissistic personality disorder. He was a spoiled, lonely and entitled person.

[the_rake]

'It is about meeting the right people.'

Agreed. That's why socially intelligent people need to help people with a lack of social intelligence find the right people.

'He had Aspergers and Narcissistic personality disorder. He was a spoiled, lonely and entitled person.'

Yes, he was all of those things (although you talk about Asperger's as if it is a mental illness, so be careful: and his narcissism was very superficial - to me, he came across as bigging himself up in order to compensate for his severe lack of self-esteem). But keep in mind, rotting away in isolation for many years does do twisted things to your mind. Perhaps you have not spent much time by yourself. I have (no I'm not going on an Elliot Rodger rampage) and what I can say is that you do begin to go to very dark places in the mind. Perhaps more so as a young male (dealing with testosterone, masculinity complexes, etc.).

[the_rake]

Anyway, my point - as you should be aware - is not to justify people like Elliot Rodger. It is to help the socially savvy be careful in the language they use. Very. Careful. Instead of telling such people do 'suck it up', offer real and wholesome advice to the best of your ability. If you know them, just being around and offering friendship is better than nothing (even if you do not wish to offer sex, which is perfectly acceptable). And sure, they may not even be the type of person you want to offer friendship to. But you catch my drift.

[the_rake]

by the way, if you are interested about elliot rodgers, I recommend you watch this analysis, it is very useful, I thought at the time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oybAUKZhaMA

[Buttface99]

This chain hurts me to read. I deal with plenty of social anxiety myself and was agoraphobic for years. No one helped me and it wasn't anyone's job to. What I had to do was learn to adapt to the world around me when I put myself back out there and who would have guessed it, the stuff Jenna said in that video is true. People don't work with each other for all sorts of reasons, social inexperience is very much one of those reasons. You'll find people who want to be with you because you're awkward and amazing in all sorts of ways. You don't need to hang yourself on the label of a "genuinely nice guy", it doesn't matter. So please stop defending it like it's a label that you can be marginalized for. It's a trait and anyone who's worth a damn will see you for who you are.

[the_rake]

@Buttface99

It's not just a case of 'being a genuinely nice guy' that Jenna Marbles got totally fucked up. She totally failed to acknowledge that these guys are not all punching for the stars - yeah some of these nice guys actually have attractive qualities of their own. If you've been treated like a piece of shit for being a nice guy you should be pissed of at this glib woman's hurtful and spiteful video, not the article I wrote that DEFENDS these types of men.

[Buttface99]

Why do you need to own the label of nice guy? Why does someone need to defend or deny it? She's talking about nice guys like they're all one group but she's also talking about a specific type of person and you can read between the lines. Being nice is a trait not just a label and I'm pretty sure everyone worth a damn knows that. I don't see why you're so worried what people think about a label that's been dilluted into meaninglessness.

[the_rake]

@Buttface99 I don't know what you mean, ' own the label', I very much recognise that niceness is a trait that's why I highlight the importance of avoiding generalisations. And of course I fucking care: why should it be diluted into meaninglessness? A guy has the right to vent his frustrations and ask advice without people sitting on him, telling him the world doesn't owe him and that he should stop punching for the stars and settle for less. Jenna Marbles, by adding weight to these beliefs head thrown fuel onto the fire. Just because you were ok with people treating you like shit when you suffered social anxiety - I have been through that also and I say fuck those people and fuck them even more if they are treating other people like it.

[Buttface99]

Fair enough. To me this isn't something worth rallying for. Jenna Marbles video seemed clear headed and like good advice for a lot of people. You clearly take offense to her categorizations and that's completely valid. I don't think anyone is required to help out the socially weaker, they've got their own lives to live. I respect your opinion though and hope people treat you how you'd like to be treated.

[the_rake]

@Buttface99

It doesn't hurt, nor does it take much time or energy, if somebody is making an effort to be part of your circle or interact with you to demonstrate a few basic curtesies and engage in some social niceties with them. If they are of good enough value and they want to be involved in activities, then there shouldn't be any problem to engage them in should they want. You can talk about freedom of the individual to interact with whom they please if you should want and I would agree that nobody should be forced to do something they are not willing to do so, however keep in mind that we are not talking about the intimacy of sex or relationships here. Just simple social niceties. I would certainly judge somebody that is exclusive of certain types of people because they don't fit into their perception of the contemporary 'zeitgeist'.

[the_rake]

As for the Jenna Marbles video, you are correct: I take offense to it on many different levels. Her delivery is glib & patronising. She uses profain language to express her points that is directed at the expectations she perceives the 'nice guy' to have (not necessarily the expectations an actual nice guy would have). She generalises and categorises him and refuses to acknowledge the many different subtle and nuanced problems that different nice guys would have. In short, she is a massive bitch.

[Curious_Jane]

There are nice guy haters? I guess those girls are self haters and need help. Guess they wanted to be treated like dirt/garbage.

[the_rake]

It is more that they see nice guys as wanting something rather than being genuinely nice to someone and if a guy complains that he is unsuccessful with girls, it is always because he needs to work on himself rather than because he has been treated like shit. I don't think people do it on purpose and 'nice guy hatred' is a strong term but there are definitely people that do not understand things in the way that only a nice guy could understand.

For example in this take (https://www. girlsaskguys. com/dating/a25841-guys-we-can-take-the-hate) the girl suffers from similar baggage. She thinks it ok to let guys wine and dine them and have lots of guys chasing at one time - maybe because she thinks they are all after one thing and they're gonna 'dump [women] for a younger model at the first sign of a wrinkle or stretch mark'.

[the_rake]

[cont.]

KaylaS91 also posted this take about nice guys: www.girlsaskguys.com/.../a26030-the-irony-of-nice-guys

And there was this also, www.girlsaskguys.com/.../a26483-guest-feature-expert-april-masini-explains-why-nice-guys-finish-last

I explained what I felt was wrong with all of these takes in the comment sections, so you can Ctrl + F and type in ' the_rake ' to see what my objections were.

Finally, nice guys on the whole just don't really get what they want from girls (sex, relationships, whatever). Sure, they aren't owed it but I'm just pointing this out.

[Curious_Jane]

Thats just sad how some girls think this way. But not all are like this.

[Curious_Jane]

So there's hope. ☺

[the_rake]

I am having this discussion with @dominiquois if you are interested in hearing the other side of the discussion.

[Anonymous]

I had no idea that there were "nice guy haters" out there except for what I thought would be women out there who hated us thinking that we just sucked and were not worthy of their time. Obviously I was wrong.

[Anonymous]

Goodness, I had no idea there were "Nice guy haters"! I guess not everyone appreciates a kind soul these days?

[the_rake]

haha well to be fair they are criticising the OTHER kind of 'nice guy'. I'm just pointing out some of the areas where the two overlap / share similarities and criticising this may mean that the genuine nice guy gets the stick unduly. not sure if this makes much sense :P

[Moose2coolvargas]

Hey you like me you like me. If you don't you dont, but if you don't I'll probably be racking my brain trying to figure out why not 😛

[the_rake]

' but if you don't I'll probably be racking my brain trying to figure out why not '

haha yes that is a good way of putting it. I think that this 'confused curiosity' of the good man (I say 'good man' instead of 'nice guy') is often mistaken for a belief that he is owed.

[Moose2coolvargas]

Can't explain it man, I've met some that can't stand my existence I guess... lol

[the_rake]

I wouldn't worry too much. Lots of girls are 'catty'. There are evolutionary and PUA theories about this - 'shit-testing', essentially women are testing a guys reproductive fitness by tugging his strings to see how confidently he responds. Evolutionarily this makes sense, but socially it is immoral behaviour. It's like if a guy called a woman fat, that would make evolutionary sense because he does not want to sleep with fat women, but most social norms would consider this 'rudeness'.

[zagor]

To avoid the myriad misunderstandings due to various definitions of the term I move we ban the use of the phrase "nice guy" from these forums.

[the_rake]

Yes, more and more people are beginning to talk about 'good guys' instead, e. g. @pavlove's latest take marks such a point in this trend. It is important however that this label does not become equally tainted.

[Anonymous]

A great take!
Nice try but sadly I don't think people will understand this or maybe they don't want to understand this.

[the_rake]

thanks. I realise people's opinions will not change overnight but I am pleased with this take because it conveys a poignant message but is also easy to understand without conveying too much information overload (because there is lots more I could say about this). so this is the kind of thing people should be tweeting, etc. if they want to spread the message: something that is short, concise and stirs the emotions.

[Walls_and_Doors]

"Stop telling them they're just pansies and beta males just because they are respectful to women and want to know why they are not successful."

... No.

[Anonymous]

If he is a nice guy he won't think that you owe him anything. Muchless a pitty fuck

[Wisenguber]

Love this... great Take.. keep it going bro.

[Anonymous]

All nice guys are indeed ugly I know cause I'm nice

[the_rake]

' I know cause I'm nice '

That's not a strong reference point. Some nice guys are ugly, some nice guys not so much. Try not to generalise because it helps no-one (yourself included).

[Opinion Owner]

Its the truth. How many nice guys do you see that are good looking? Not average.

[the_rake]

'niceness' -> 'giving pleasure or satisfaction; pleasant or attractive'

there is no correlation (negative or positive) between attractiveness and simply 'being nice'. niceness is something you choose to be. you can choose to be well-mannered and amicable to be regardless of whether you look good or not. likewise, if you are ugly, you can also choose to be an arsehole: many (though not all) ugly guys get bitter and cynical about the way the world treats and do in fact become arseholes. generalisations is something you want to avoid for the most part. in fact, if there is one thing to take from my article it is this.

[FilthyPervert]

Nice guys finish last.

[ColinHarvey]

THESE PRETZELS ARE MAKING ME THIRSTY.

[Anonymous]

No true scotsman fallacy detected.

[the_rake]

not really.

there's other 'true scotsmen' in this scenario that certainly are boring and unattractive. they can still be nice guys.

there's also 'fake scotsmen' that put on an air of niceness to manipulate women. they are not genuinely nice, hence 'fake scotsmen'.

In this thread, I focus on the 'true scotsmen' that are genuinely nice guys AND attractive/interesting guys. that's because people assume these kind of scotsmen don't exist.

[Opinion Owner]

When you say that guys, who are nice yet are also closet mysoginists, are not true nice guys, you are falling in the no true scotsman fallacy.

Look, I agree, some nice guys are pretty decent fellows, hell some of them might also do pretty well with women (well, I know one such guy). But some are also secretly huge mysoginistic douchebags, and yet some others fall somewhere in between. But all of them come across as nice, hence they are all nice guys.

[the_rake]

'you are falling in the no true scotsman fallacy'

The true scotsman fallacy would be if I said there's only one type of a. I already conceded that there could be other types of a, so I don't see how I made that fallacy. I did not even talk about misogyny in the take: that's another subject.

[Opinion Owner]

Huh. My bad. Perhaps I got kinda misled by the title perhaps (which does fall in the aforementioned fallacy, though, by esentially saying that if a nice guy is secretly a douchebag, then he is no real nice guy), without reading the rest. Still other than that some of the stuff of the take makes sense.

[the_rake]

'if a nice guy is secretly a douche bag, then he is no real nice guy'

he's not a genuine nice guy because his niceness is artificial. in my title, I referred to this kind of guy in quotation marks to illustrate the fact is niceness is artificial. do you see? that isn't a no true scotsman.