Is sexual harassment on the streets due to provocative clothing or the mentality of men? Explain?

[juniorsrosie]

Clothing

Mentality

[Anonymous]

I would say it is the mentality of some men. I'm going to give 3 examples here of times I feel I have been sexually harassed, which are all totally different:

First and second, was when I was in a club/student party about a year ago. I'm not really a club kind of person and stopped going after these two incidents. Both times I was wearing jeans and a pretty non revealing top. Just an average t-shirt pretty much and my converse. So it definitely was not the clothing. Honestly, I would even say that I'm an average 6 out of 10 at best so I have no idea how I was even attracting any attention.

I wasn't even that drunk either to be honest. I had one creep come up to me and ask me if I wanted to go back to his for sex. Literally not even a "hi, what's your name?". Of course I said no and then he continued to feel me up and push himself up against my ass as I was dancing. Putting his hands on my hips and trying to grind against me. Totally not cool...

The other time I was in a club, I had another guy get right in my face and ask me to dance with him. I said no and that my boyfriend would not appreciate it. I was just there with my flatmates to be honest, they always dragged me out with them D: The guy continued to get closer and closer in my face and it was like he was moving in to kiss me. Luckily my gay friend stepped in and told him to back the f*ck off.

Final example I have is completely different. I was about 13 and walking home with my Mother late at night. It was pitch black. Again, I was wearing jeans and I had a coat on. I had some makeup on and my hair up in a bun because I was in my school play that night and was walking home from that. This guy, if I had to guess he was probably at least 30.. Couldn't really see much.. But he was walking in the opposite direction. My Mother walked in front since there wasn't much room to get past. As the guy is walking past me he gets really close and feels me up from behind. Literally reaching right between my legs. Not my ass... My vagina. Then he just carried on walking. I was too embarrassed to tell my Mother about it though and she still has no clue it happened even to this day. Definitely f*cked me up a little though.

So yeah.. I don't believe at all that it's the clothes. There are girls out there that go out in the skimpiest of things and there are decent guys who wouldn't even dream of just going and feeling them up. (Well they might fantasize but they'd never do it... You know what I mean ;) haha).

[Rainie_]

Mentality of men. I've travelled to many different parts of the world, and the same clothes will have me treated completely differently in different countries.

In the UK my clothing style gets me sexually harassed sometimes but not as bad as some other places in the world.
China I never do unless they are foreigners like myself, the Chinese won't touch you, the furthest they'll go is completely glare at you full on or try to take pictures of you "secretly"...
In Sweden the Swedes don't do anything at all, ONLY non-swedes will sexually harass you 😅
In Morocco I get sexually harassed even in front of my family, and even when Im far far more covered up than usual, didn't actually see any difference in my regular wear and more covered up, the men are quite intense...
Italy they only do it when they see that I am alone, once they see me with my mother they back off immediately.
Malaysia is kind of on the same level as the UK

The worst though is probably Brazilians, got chased down by car when I hopped on a scooter to get away from them 😅😅 That was obviously the craziest moment, but I can say that many Brazilian men I know are very out there and persistent...

So basically its more of a culture and mentality thing than clothes in general as the same outfit will give you a whole lot of different reactions in different cultures.

[akadatank44]

Woah... that's just creepy!

[goaded]

Were you wearing a wedding ring in Morocco? Not to excuse their behaviour, just to suggest a defence.

[lumos]

The mentality of men. Many men feel as though their opinions and actions are so important that they just have to express/do them. It's seen as a very masculine thing to do: to express your opinion loudly and proudly even if nobody wants to hear it or asked you what you thought. Which is also why so many men try to excuse sexual harassment as "just compliments", or a man exercising his right to express his opinion (no matter how offensive it might be).
Just because a woman decides to wear a crop top or a skirt, it doesn't mean she's inviting every single person on this earth to criticize her looks loudly in public. As far as I'm concerned, clothing does not dictate another person's mentality, it does not force other people to make sexual jokes or offensive statements. That is entirely the offender's doing, and by claiming that it's not a mentality problem, you're justifying this sort of poor behavior.

[ThatJarHead]

It largely depends on how you look at it, context, what was said etc etc.

Are you taking it as sexual harassment, when it's just a man giving you a blunt compliment? And are you assuming that they think you want to have sex with them? Both lines of thinking are flawed. Like it or not, sex isn't always on a mans' mind. I speak personally. It's usually the farthest thing from my mind unless alone with my sweetheart, in a bedroom. Guys cat call to express attraction. So if you're wearing clothing that makes you look attractive expect to be cat called. But it isn't sexual harassment. Saying "Hey! You're pretty! I want to f*ck you!" isn't sexual harassment. It's a bit crass and rude sure, but it's not harassment. It would be harassment if they followed you and continued to hound you about it, then it's harassment. But a passing inappropriate statement isn't sexual. I'm assuming you're speaking about passing compliments, not genuine harassment but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

In all fairness, it's a mix. Sure, men can be pigs, but they're more likely to be pigs to a woman that they find attractive than just any random woman on the street. So, it has to do with clothing, how you look, and THAT PARTICULAR man being a pig. Not all men are the same, the mere thought of "men are just pigs" is blatantly sexist.

[madhatters4]

i'd say a bit of both but ultimately it comes down to the mentality of men.

women don't have to dress provocatively to get harassed on the streets which goes to show that at the core it's the mentality of men who feel like they can cat call and bother women as the walk down the street. i've been with women who aren't wearing anything most would regard as provocative and still been bothered

ultimately it is on men to behave in a way that is befitting of being a mature adult. blaming women or putting the onus on women suggest that men have no ability to control themselves

to create a comparison:
if we see an ugly baby being carried by a mother on the street 99% of us don't feel compelled to shout out "that's an ugly baby!" so it shows that people have the ability to implement self control

If women see a super hot guy they are far less likely to shout out comments at that guy, again showing that it's about self control

[ShadowFan12]

Took the words right out of my mouth man.

[SovereignessofVamps]

<3 this. I think tons of women get harassed in reg tshirt and jeans all the time. I've heard so many stories and been approached myself, wearing reg/casual clothes.

[MrOracle]

Completely agree with @madhatters4 post. Not much more to be said.

[hellionthesagereborn]

Not really, that's not a fair comparison. If men do not do the approaching, the initiating or show they have the confidence to approach a woman without knowing her what will happen? They remain single. Men are placed in the role of pursuer which is fine but you cannot then claim they are assholes when they follow that function. Some are going to be better at it then others, some are going to have techniques that work for some women but not others but this is whats going to happen if you place all that on one group, they are going to do what they can to get a relationship/sex. Sure some are just assholes, but then the same can be said of women, but to claim that all men who do this are just lacking in self control and are "harassing" a woman etc. etc? That's just not a fair comparison, it takes it out of context.

[madhatters4]

@hellionthesagereborn but approaching a woman in a respectful way is not hte same as harassing a woman because of the clothes they wear. approaching a woman isn't the same as shouting out inappropriate stuff, whistling at them, or cat calling.

you won't be in trouble for sexual harassment if you politely walk up to a person and say, "hi my name is ___________. could i have your number?"

it is lacking self control to shout out things at a woman. or whistle at them. so yes i'd say all people who do this (male or female but far more common for males) lack self control

[MrOracle]

This just reminds me of:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zt0tVwP6MA4

[hellionthesagereborn]

People are rude all the time, your rude women are rude everyone is rude. Rudeness is nothing more then perception, what one person thinks is rude another doesn't. I stand by my statement, sure some are assholes but then why are we not talking about the women who are equally bad? The fact is the vast majority of these catcalls are not meant maliciously, they are by definition NOT harassment, and yes they can come off as rude sometimes (though trying to hit on a woman is considered creepy if the guy isn't attractive enough to the woman so that needs to be taken with a grain of salt) but to act as if its some kind of epidemic of men being sexist, of men trying to sexually harass women? That's completely absurd. When a woman calls a guy creepy when he approaches her and tries to initiate a dialogue, is that harassment as well? When she tells a guy to fuck off when he tries to talk to her is that harassment? See the problem? we exaggerate the problem when it applies to women.

[madhatters4]

@hellionthesagereborn you are using a really false logic to try and excuse poor behavior.

[hellionthesagereborn]

How so? Claiming something is illogical is a far cry different then proving it. I can say the same thing about your argument, after all your basically claiming these men are acting poorly and have poor impulse control for no particular reason, that seems a rather illogical argument. My stance is their must be a reason, that it would seem the logical conclusion would be that they are trying to initiate a conversation with the woman in order to get a date/sex as they are by biological and social design the initators of such things and that this is the most probable reason for this response. I feel like that is a much more reasonable response then they just do it because they are some how inherently bad people or impulsive.

[RJGraveyTrain]

It's the mentality of the individual, not necessarily men as a whole. I've been harassed while being reasonably dressed, even fully covered. Typically people who harass others do it for some personal, weird satisfaction.

[OlderAndWiser]

It depends on your perspective (what you want to believe) but, depending on the circumstances, both factors can play a role.

[Zoxox]

I don't think so if I want to wear a skirt that doesn't mean I want to have sex with you

[OlderAndWiser]

@Zoxox The question is not about what the victim is thinking. Obviously, you have an agenda.

[Bobbyhill1]

older and wiser just slayed her looool

[FakeName123]

@Zoxox

If I want to wear a big, golden rolex in a crime-ridden area, I don't want to be robbed.

[Zoxox]

No actually he didn't, rape is about power not sex, people only use what the victim was wearing as a way to blame her and it feel like it was their fault. and are you seriously comparing being robbed to being raped? Cause if so please get help

[OlderAndWiser]

@FakeName123 If you wear a big Rolex in a high crime area, of course you don't want to be robbed. No one ever suggested that possibility. That is a weak straw-man argument. However, if you wear that big, flashy Rolex in a high crime area, you can foresee the possibility, you know that their are actions you can take to decrease the odds of a potential robbery, so you have an opportunity to potentially avoid being a victim of crime. If you don't take that action and you are robbed, the criminal remains responsible for their crime but your failure to take precautions is a contributing factor in the occurrence of the crime.

[OlderAndWiser]

@Zoxox And walking down the street totally nude would not raise the possibility of you being the victim of a rape?

[Zoxox]

No it shouldn't, if you a decent male human being you will only have shed with a woman when she tells you she wants to. If you see a woman breast feeding her child do you think the same thing?

[Zoxox]

*sex

[FakeName123]

@OlderAndWiser - I just compared her clothing argument to a similar situation to make it more clear.

Sure, no one is asking for it and no one deserve it - but there are certain actions that increase the likelihood of it happening. And either one is aware and willingly takes the risk - or one doesn't take the risk. Self-responsibility is a great thing. Especially since freedom and safety are usually contradictions.

[FakeName123]

@Zoxox

"No it shouldn't, if you a decent male human being you will only have sex with a woman when she tells you she wants to. If you see a woman breast feeding her child do you think the same thing?"

That's the point though. People who rape are NOT decent human beings and lack a moral compass. Why do you lock your doors? Why are you cautious of going out alone at night? So on and so forth.

Because there are people who are NOT decent human beings. And it is YOUR responsibility to be safe - since these people will do it either way. No matter if it's illegal or not.

[Zoxox]

But I don't understand that, why are men never held responsible for there actions? If you want to go out and get drunk you shouldn't have to be worried about that

[FakeName123]

@Zoxox

"If you want to go out and get drunk you shouldn't have to be worried about that"

This is not how it works, hun. There are people out there looking to harm you in one way or another. Doesn't matter if you are young or old, male or female, black or white. Those people are few and far between, but they exist. And NOTHING will make them vanish. So it is on YOU to be responsible for your own safety. No one else is, but you.

P. S. Men are more likely to be victims of all violent crimes bar rape. So don't make it out to be a "only women have to live in fear"-scenario.

[Zoxox]

I'm aware of that but this discussion is referring to women. And stop with all the bull like you too care. The reality is that these "bad people" your referring to are the same guys you watch on tv every Sunday. My point is WHY are the questions what we're wearing? What did you drink? Did you kiss him? Instead of did she say no? I mean god I'm sick of it always be on the victim. You can stay in your dorm with all your doors lock and it will still happen

[OlderAndWiser]

@Zoxox If you stay in your dorm, why do you lock the door?

[FakeName123]

@Zoxox

Of course it can also happen if you are on your dorm with the doors locked - but locking your doors drastically decreases the chance. There are actions YOU can take to decrease the likelihood of you being a victim.

Does that absolve the perpetrator of any guilt? No, it doesn't. But your safety is your own responsibility nonetheless. And as I said above - freedom and safety are usually contradictions. If you want to get drunk, alone in a club wearing very provocative clothes? Sure you do that. But you need to be aware that those attributes increase the likelihood of those "bad people" picking you out as a target.

What you make out of it is up to you.

[Zoxox]

Ok well you guys obviously don't understand what I'm trying to tell you so thanks 🙏🏻

[OlderAndWiser]

@FakeName123 Well said. Unfortunately, some people cling to the simplistic notion that if you question a victim about their behavior, you are relieving a perpetrator if responsibility. Of course, that is not what we are saying, but they seem to be incapable of listening to anything except what they want to hear.

Maybe this is an extension of an unspoken plank of the liberal platform: people should be free to engage in whatever behavior they choose without having any consequences for that behavior.

[Zoxox]

Wow you two are honestly some of the most disgusting men I've talked to I hope you don't have daughters one day cause there out of luck with you two

[FakeName123]

I think it has to do with those people being unable to operate in moderation. Its either or, us vs them and similar mentalities. Add to it the incapability to be critical towards oneself and you have a pretty dangerous mix of ignorance.
Ironically statistically there is such a thing as a serial-victim. Ironic, because it brings their argumentation ad absurdum.

I personally had my fair share of being a victim from robbery to being attacked by a group of people. I can't change what these people wanted to do, but I can do some retrospection and think about what I could have done different to either avoid the situation or come out better. But that requires me thinking critical of myself and not wallowing in victimhood.

[FakeName123]

@Zoxox

Name-calling makes your point really more believable. And if I have a daughter one day I already thought about how to teach her not to be a victim and what self-defense and self-responsibility means.

You are welcome.

[Zoxox]

You can't teach people how not to be a victim it's not a choice but good for you

[OlderAndWiser]

@Zoxox "When I was a child, I spoke and thought and reasoned as a child. But when I grew up, I put away childish things." One day, you will grow up. You will have children, and you will insist that they take reasonable precautions for their own safety because you would rather have them unharmed than simply feel morally self-righteous and outraged at the criminal who harmed them. You will tell them to look both ways before crossing the street; that doesn't mean that if they are struck by a car in an intersection, that you are blaming the child instead of the driver. . . or will you tell them that it's okay to walk out into the road without looking because, after all, it's not like they WANT to be struck be a car, right?

[FakeName123]

@Zoxox

Thats the issue with your mindset. You CAN in fact teach people how to minimise the chance of being a victim and how to handle the situation when someone wants to make them a victim.

As I stated earlier - statistically there is such a thing as a serial-victim. People who happen to become victims time and time again. That means it's not just pure coincidence anymore, but these "serial-victims" act in a certain way that makes them more likely to be victims.

And before you accuse me again of being a disgusting man - I was raised by a single mother who teached me exactly what I am telling you right now when kids tried to bully me during first grade. I guess that makes her a similar disgusting woman. Lol.

[Zoxox]

Honestly I don't care to hear your back story cause guess what I've dealt with things will never understand. So tell me this if your at a party and walk to a bathroom and three men grab you into a bedroom and hold you down then what? And I understand what you two are saying but you don't seem to understand the reality under which these situations actually occur. Cause 65% of rapes occur with someone the victim knows and how can you minimize the chance of someone you trust hurting you? Both of you think you know so much about this subject but you obviously don't. Your not always drunk or wearing something revealing. Oh and bullying isn't even in the same category but it doesn't make a difference to you right?

[OlderAndWiser]

@Zoxox " Both of you think you know so much about this subject but you obviously don't. Your not always drunk or wearing something revealing." Show me where either of us made such a statement. Now you are simply making up things to justify your anger at us. No, it is never a victim's fault but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't take reasonable precautions. And, no, there is not always something that you can do to prevent a crime and all crimes aren't foreseeable. But, according to your stated beliefs, you should be able to walk naked into the shower in the boy's locker room and expect nothing to happen, so perhaps you WANT to be a victim!

[ThatJarHead]

@Zoxox As a victim of rape myself, and as someone who got laughed at by the police because "a man can't be raped" I can vouch for the fact that, in retrospect, there's a lot I could've done to prevent the situation from happening. I'm not saying it's my fault, only that I didn't take all possible precautions to prevent becoming a victim and male rape statistic. The person who did it is still guilty, but I still could've taken more responsibility to drink in a safer environment, and pay more attention to who was handling my drink, and who was around me. I didn't, thus, I now only get drunk in the safety of my own home, and take a friend with me when I go to the bar to have drinks. It's knowing that there's always step[s that can be taken to prevent something. Regardless of what your interpretation of that is.

Also, before you label me a "bad man" for supporting what @OlderAndWiser & @FakeName123 said? Think about what I've said, I've lived through it.

[Zoxox]

What did I make up? Your sitting here talking about how someone wants to be a victim. You went from walk down a street naked to a boys locker room, really? And the only thing your old and wise about is ignorance. Cause how are those two things the same. It truly makes me sad that you think someone would want to be a victim. It's pretty simple it's called consent have you heard of it? It's were you make sure the person your with wants to have sex with you. So if you saw a naked woman you would just grab her and do whatever?

[OlderAndWiser]

@Zoxox " So if you saw a naked woman you would just grab her and do whatever?" No, I wold not. Never have, never will. But there are people who would do that, and you know it. You simply want to insist that the world must adhere to your Pollyanna-simplistic notions. In the real world, that doesn't work. If you want to stay home and have tea parties with your dolls, everything will be okay. When you venture out into the real world, your self-righteousness will get you in trouble. . . and once again, you will be blaming someone else.

Yes, there are people who subconsciously want to be victims and your attitude suggests that you may be one of them.

If you are one of those girls who must have the last word, go ahead and reply but I won't respond any further.

[FakeName123]

@ThatJarHead

Mad probs to you being able to differentiate between guilt and responsibility in such an emotionally charged incident. That really tells a lot about you. Best of luck, mate.

Gonna withdraw either way since it's clear that @Zoxox at this point is throwing a temper tantrum, because poor little thing doesn't get it her way. I rather spend my time in a more useful manner and stare at a wall. See ya.

[OlderAndWiser]

@FakeName123 @ThatJarHead Right. I appreciated your contributions. Hopefully, little girl grows up one day but, in the meanwhile, you can't save people from themselves.

[Zoxox]

Yea cause I'm a girl speaking my opinion I'm throwing a tantrum. I'm sorry that happened to you and believe me I can understand. But call me crazy for think we can teach men the difference of what consent is. @OlderAndWiser is exactly what I'm talking about I want to be a victim, cause I made one mistake it's my fault. It's the same thing over and over and it's because of that thinking. But whatever I can't get anywhere so fine.

[Zoxox]

And didn't you say you weren't going to respond?

[HorrorFan]

@Zoxox So you reject the notion that women be taught how to defend themselves, be careful where they drink, avoid sketchy areas, etc., but then you go on about how men need to be taught what consent is.

Really? The old "Men need to be taught not to rape" argument again? Men KNOW what consent is. It's a tiny percentage of men out there that simply don't give a shit about laws or rules and nothing can be done about this. It's already illegal to rape. To even gain any type of reputation involving rape leads to being completely shun by society.

This is like saying that you shouldn't have to lock your door because men should just be taught not to steal. Everyone should be able to frolic down any street at any time of day because clearly, men should be taught not to murder.

They are. There will always be monsters in society. None of us have control over other people's thoughts and actions. Which is why it makes the most sense to focus on what you do have control over. You.

[meowcow]

Neither.

Provocative clothing does not make a man say vulgar things to the lady. I'll bet you there are men out there who would never make such comments regardless of what a woman wears. Then there are others who will make such comments regardless of whether a woman dresses provocatively or not - and is just naturally attractive.

It is the mentality of humans (both men and women) who think their happiness and well-being is reason and justification to suppress others. The underlying feature of a person who sexually harasses another is the same feature that makes people steal, rob, and murder. They don't give a shit about you or your well-being. Unfortunately, such behavior is actually normal. Yes I say normal. It is one of the extremes of human nature. The other extreme is those who are obsessively nice and nurturing, but also normal.

There will never be an end to sexual harassment, bullying, theft... murders... etc. Because with each new generation of people born to this planet, there will be people who are good and bad. No society has been successful in making the population homogenous in their behavior.

Now does this mean that women who dress provocatively are sluts? No.
Does this mean women who dress provocatively deserve what they get? No.
But the world is not ideal. We understand there are bad people out there. Which is why we lock our doors at night, and watch over our kids from strangers.

[pnl86]

What sexual harassment on the streets?

Are any of the women on the street employed by any of the men on the street? If not, then whatever you're referring to is not called "sexual harassment."

Just because that's the label "you" slap on it doesn't mean it fits within the legal definition of sexual harassment. It's not even rape, or even the criminal definition of "harassment" or "stalking." Unfortunately, it's just women who subjectively feel uncomfortable from the "possibility" of these men making some kind of physical contact with her. That is not enough to pass the "reasonable" hurdle in elements of causing fear or apprehension of physical harm. Even if it were to "seriously annoy" the woman, she would have to establish that the male "intended" to "seriously annoy" her (not merely that she "was, in her mind" seriously annoyed).

All these posts basically amount to are women trying to control men and their otherwise non-criminal behavior. It's interesting to talk about on a theoretical level, but at the end of the day, that's all it really is and ever will be.

[SunsetStar]

There's a lot of non-criminal behavior that's still rude or crude. As a poster upthread said, if someone's walking down the street with an ugly kid, you don't say "wow that's an ugly kid." Sure you legally can. Doesn't mean it's not rude.

[pnl86]

@SunsetStar okay, it's rude and crude... big whooptie doo

[pnl86]

@SunsetStar as some judges said in older tort cases on "battery," part of living in society requires growing a backbone. There will necessarily be some pushing and shoving between people in public places such as sidewalks, public transportation and large social gatherings and events. Not every kind of unconsented-to physical contact is a "battery."

Similarly, not every time someone's "feelings get hurt," should there be some national organized movement to prevent people's feelings from being hurt. People have the power to grow a backbone and develop an immunity to the "insensitivities" of others.

"Hurt feelings" is not any kind of litmus test for what happens in public. In the safety of one's own home, among family, maybe "hurt feelings" are a valid test of familial and friendship bonds. In public, however, nobody does and nobody "should" care about anyone's "hurt feelings."

[pnl86]

@SunsetStar otherwise, "hurt feelings" become an entirely subjective standard through which the authors and authority of what are "hurt feelings" are granted the license to impose their own rules of social control over the behavior of others. That's not the law and that's not the world we live in. People's "feelings" don't have that kind of power over the behavior of others. The only power people have is over their own feelings. So, instead of spending all that time and energy having a hissy fit over how "rude or crude" someone else's behavior was, people should redirect all that time and energy into growing a backbone and thick skin.

[SunsetStar]

I don't think anyone's trying to make yelling things in public illegal. What we are doing is saying that because it's rude and crude, we should teach boys not to do it and not to hang out with people who do.

[SunsetStar]

For example, I could go up to you on the street and say "wow, you're butt-ugly and you shouldn't show your face in public." That's my legal right. Doesn't mean I should do it, or that it wouldn't be rude of me to do it. Or even that it would be wrong of you to be upset with me for saying something like that for no reason.

[pnl86]

@SunsetStar we should try to control and modify the behavior of boys, because it hurts the feelings of girls.

Maybe we should teach all girls to be sluts too while we're at it, because it would help reduce how hurt boys feel when they get rejected. o. O

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions." www.phrases.org.uk/.../...ith-good-intentions.html

For as long as boys are not doing anything that's illegal, then maybe we "should" teach our girls how to manage their "sensitivity" and learn to exist and function in a world where people are sometimes "rude and crude."

[SunsetStar]

It's a balance. We should teach girls to be polite about rejection and not be unnecessarily hurtful. We should teach guys to approach women politely and not just yell things out their car windows.

After all, you have a right of free association too. Good luck cheating on your girlfriend and saying that you have a "Right of free association" and she should just grow a thicker skin because you don't have to watch out for her feelings.

[pnl86]

@SunsetStar if you want to use "cheating" as an example, why is "good luck" needed?

What you said is completely correct. People do have the right to free association. If two people are not married, and they believe they are exclusive, they are free to change their mind voluntarily at any moment. They can "have sex" with someone other than who they are "in a relationship" with on Facebook. Will this hurt the other person's feelings? Sure.

Again, "so what?" What are a person's remedies and what's within their lawful power to do? Can they sue? No. Can they kill or resort to violence? Not lawfully and without consequence. Grrr! Rawr! So, what can they do?

All that's within their power is to learn to avoid those situations in the future, and work on healing and growing stronger as a person. Don't hope for life to get easier, hope to get stronger! The world is not a nice place, we need to encourage people to be STRONGER and more RESILIENT, not MORE SENSITIVE.

[SunsetStar]

My point is they can refuse to associate with that person. They can tell other people to refuse to associate with that person. Other people can find out and also refuse to associate with that person. And that's exactly what we're saying with sexual harassment - that people who behave this way aren't going to get women to go out with them because they're rude, and that decent guys won't want to hang out with them either because they're rude.

[pnl86]

@SunsetStar exactly! Social freedoms cut both ways. Without having the freedom to be a dick, how would people know who they prefer to associate with? Similarly, if everyone is forced to be polite, then it's not exactly special for someone to be nice, caring, polite and sensitive to just you.

[SunsetStar]

I don't think anyone here is saying men should be forced to be polite - certainly not legally. That doesn't mean we aren't saying that men ought to be polite, and that by and large women don't find these sort of comments to be polite or welcome.

[pnl86]

@SunsetStar let natural selection take its course... if it works for these guys, they don't have to listen to anyone who tells them what they "ought" to do... if it doesn't work from them, then let all other males get rewarded for not being that way

No need for "ought to" social rules. Life is both teacher and enforcer.

[SunsetStar]

The thing is I don't think they're really looking for it to "work" in the sense of getting with a girl. A shouted comment isn't really an attempt to get a date or get laid or anything. It's more trying to show off how "manly" they are and what they can do.

[hellionthesagereborn]

Neither and both. Provactive clothing is meant to provoke i. e. its designed to highlight secondary sexual characteristics (like the ass and cleavage) in order to gain attention (like a mating display). However the fact of the matter is, its not harassment, its called being hit on. The reason why men do this and not women is the same reason why men have to initiate relationships and dating/sex, because women won't. If men do not approach women or try and gain their attention then they do not get dates, they do not get sex. So if women where proactive or outright the persuers and men the persued then you would see the opposite, women cat calling men, hitting on men. So what your arguing is that men should not approach women in any way but completely missing the very important fact that this is how YOU (you as a woman and you personally) get dates, by men approaching you and trying to get your attention. Not all methods work, not all methods work on everybody but clearly their are some who respond because men keep doing it. What your complaining about can absolutely be fixed by women, be the ones who go after men then the problem will be solved, until then you need to accept the fact that all guys want a relationship/sex which requires them getting the attention of a woman in some fashion or another and that some men will be better at it then others and some will have approaches that work better on certain types of women and not others.

[SunsetStar]

Somehow I doubt shouting things out of car windows at women has ever in the history of mankind gotten any man laid. I think a lot of this behavior isn't really men pursuing women - they know hollering at a strange woman isn't going to get them anywhere. It's them showing off.

[hellionthesagereborn]

@SunsetStar Clearly it does or they wouldn't really do it. How is it showing off exactly? What are they showing off and why would they want to? The fact of the matter is because women leave the pursuit of relationship/sex to men, men are going to do so in the way they feel will get results.

[SunsetStar]

My impression was there's a certain amount that's more about showing off their masculinity to other men than a legit attempt at pursuit. I mean, there are a lot of attempts, like yelling something from a passing car window, where the guy basically just yells something at a woman and keeps on going - which is obviously not going to actually get the guy laid.

[hellionthesagereborn]

@SunsetStar Who are they showing off to? Other men? What gain is theire in that? Do women wear provocative clothing that is appealing to men because it accents their secondary sex characteristics, i. e. sexualizes them, for other women then? Seems kind of odd behavior.

[SunsetStar]

I think it is largely to other men - it's a way of saying "look how manly I am, shouting things at a pretty girl."

Why women wear provocative clothing, I couldn't tell you. It's not something I personally do - but I do get shouted at and harassed a lot.

[hellionthesagereborn]

@SunsetStar Well for starters getting shouted at isn't harassment. Harass: VERB
subject to aggressive pressure or intimidation:
"a warning to men harassing women at work"
synonyms: persecute · intimidate · hound · harry · plague · torment · bully · bedevil · [more]
make repeated small-scale attacks on (an enemy):
"the squadron's task was to harass the retreating enemy forces"
synonyms: harry · attack · beleaguer · set upon · assail
Which of course is not what is happening (at worse its being rude). As for showing off to men, again why? That's the part that makes no sense, I have never seen this, participated in, or known any one to do so (though I have seen it from, despite how women present it, from both men and women). Either way its blown considerably out of proportion and I think when it comes to the so called street "harassment" its men hitting on women which again, if women have a problem with that don't have men do all the approaching and work and the problem solves itself.

[SunsetStar]

Shouting what you want to do to her body at a woman who's walking on the sidewalk while you're driving by doesn't make any sense as a technique for picking up women, is my point. What, is the woman going run after the car, flag it down, and get in because a guy yelled at her? That doesn't make much sense either. So there's got to be more than just trying to get a girl going on, because quite a lot of this behavior doesn't make any sense as an attempt to actually get a girl.

[hellionthesagereborn]

@SunsetStar For driving by, sure I guess it wouldn't make sense but then I wasn't really talking about that as I have only witnessed teen boys (and teen girls to be honest) do such a thing. I was reffering to the other supposed forms of "harassment" that women claim are constant (again I have not really witnessed this but of course it doesn't mean its not happening). To presume some one is just doing something for no reason or because they are just bad people seems like a really irrational conclusion to make.

[SunsetStar]

Peope do a lot of things for bad reasons. There's a lot of harassment, in my experience, that really is just shouting out of cars or shouting at or touching a woman just passing by. I tend to think it's definitely coming from a high school "I'm showing off" mentality. And it is usually teenagers to young adults - harassment by older men is much much rarer, although usually creepier too.

[Anonymous]

A little bit of both.

Clothing wise... it is partly because they chose to dress like a slut. Of course you are a woman, you can go test it out for yourself. Go walk around in a major city dressed nicely, and then go dress like a whore and see which one gets you more cat calls... I can guarentee slutty clothing will get you cat called more. Why? Because when a guy sees your body he thinks sex, when he sees your clothes he isn't necessarily forced to think about sex but rather other things.

Back when I was trying to give up porn I got so screwed over by women who dressed like sluts. I'd be walking down the street and suddenly have the desire to watch porn... in order to combat that desire I'd try to switch my mind to thinking about something else, that's fine and good until you see some girl with giant breasts flopping all over the place walking up the road. When I saw normal women my mid didn't think of sex, but a woman dressed like a slut evoked images of pornstars and promiscuous women, which in turn made me more horny, which in turn changed my mindset.

My mentality isn't the problem normally. With normal girls I don't sit there and think all kinds of lustful thoughts about them. In fact, normally I interact with them normally and my intention is to simply be friends with them, not get in bed with them. The sexual desires arose when I start seeing more skin and body parts. At that point, at least for me, my mentality changes from one of "lets be friends" to "I want to have sex with her"... it is a rather unintentional impulse. Now it isn't that black and white, sometimes women that dress like trash don't really make me think of sex, but most of the time they do.

[juniorsrosie]

I have done both. I walked down the same street in jeans and a t shirt, and the other time in a swimsuit coverup (Walking from the beach.) Both times I got catcalled the same amount

[Opinion Owner]

Being by the beach doesn't count, cause women dress poorly there normally. It's common to see a woman wearing around a bikini.

You wear that same outfit in downtown NYC or Chicago and you will get more catcalling guaranteed.

[juniorsrosie]

... they DID catcall me walking HOME from the beach. My house was a few miles away and it still happened.

[juniorsrosie]

I've gotten catcalled wearing jeans and a t shirt and wearing a bikini.

[Danher525]

@juniorsrosie
i've been called cute and stuff and catcalling is just that it's not a big deal saying someone is good looking

[juniorsrosie]

... I've been chased on the streets by boys who catcalled me. Saying "Hey baby!!!" And "I wish you'd take your clothes off!!!" As you jeer at someone is harassment. It's a big deal and disrespectful.

You can call someone cute in a respectful manner. What I gave examples of happens frequently and has happened to me.

[Waffles731]

Fuck even I got cat called by a group of teenage boys AND I'M A DUDE WHO WAS READING A FREAKING BOOK
Its the mentality of the asshole, and the nature of the asshole is to continue to be an asshole so this will continue to be done by assholes

[RockingRitu]

Well let me tell you about something happened in the New year eve in our country. A girl was going home, She was in a normal dress of our country. Doesn't look sexy at all. It was a pretty busy street, many peoples were there. Two boys comes in a motorbike. and trying to pull her and take her with them and rape her. Also the most surprising thing is no one stopped them all they were watching the seen like a movie. So its upto you to judge its the boys mentality or clothing.

It clearly seems to be the mentality. Even psychology states that when boys get to a really bad Mental condition for few reasons they get aggressive and tends to rape someone.

I hate myself cause I am a boy. Honestly speaking.

[dudegreat]

There was a mass molestation in Banglore also. Some asshole ministers blamed it on women's clothing

[RockingRitu]

@dudegreat Doesn't depend on the country, state, city. Boys are same regardless where they live.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CU6_pKGNf40
Check this out. This is from Delhi. Not Bangalore. So it does not depend on the place you live in.

[dudegreat]

Duh I never said anything about it depending on the place

[RockingRitu]

@dudegreat You said Bangalore is the place where mass molestation happens.

[dudegreat]

Dude, no offence but you need to improve your English comprehension. I said "there was a mass molestation in Bangalore". In other words "mass molestation happened in Bangalore" which is a fact. So I don't know how you took it to mean "Bangalore is where mass molestation happens". There is difference between "happened" and "happens".

[Maypai]

It comes down to protecting yourself at the end of the day. If you know men are going to look at you like you're a piece of meat because of the length of your skirt, you need to choose better clothing. You don't see women who's business isn't hanging out being cat called or gawked at. Yes, there are women who get attention no matter what but for the most part it's women who dress in little and tight outfits. I dress in clothing that doesn't show off cleavage, thighs, overall shape my body or expose myself and I only get approached by sensible men. They don't cat call me, they talk to me.

[SunsetStar]

With all due respect, that's not everyone's experience. I've been catcalled and harassed when I had nothing but my eyes showing. If anything, I got the most harassment when I was in my work outfits - which were normal kinds of things you'd wear in an office, pretty conservative clothing. But I had my hair done and my makeup and jewelry on.

[Maypai]

Which is why I said some females get harassed no matter what and that comes down to the audacity of the individual/individuals bothering her.

[Telekinetic-Potato]

Well, it's both. The provocative clothing certainly doesn't help.

A Murderer murders, burglar burgle, lairs lie and rapists rape.

But the murderer is more likely to kill someone pissing him off, the burglar is gonna rob people who make themselves easy targets, and rapists are gonna look for people who look more attractive to them and the more closely your dressed to a chick on a magazine cover, the more you're attracting those kinds of people.

That doesn't mean you aren't attracting other types of people too. But you are also gonna attract those types of people.

[Dim1213]

I'm with the less popular side and I think that it is the clothing for a lot of the harassment at schools. Not all of it but definitly being cat called and unwanted attention. Seriously you don't need to have your shorts as short as your panties. You don't need a top showing off your cleavage. Even in winter girls around here wear that. They usually freeze once the sun goes down but they still wear skimpy clothing.
But that only goes so far and there is a bad mentality of some nasty guys towards women. The clothes are not to blame for that. Though wearing a skimpy outfit does not help it any.

[MarkRet]

Clothes can be somewhat provocative, but it's more the men's mentality. Most guys aren't bad, but there are certain guys who are always totally disgusting. Even a woman completely dressed and wearing a long baggy coat will get them going. There's nothing too vile that won't come out of their mouths.

[cth96190]

It is due to the mentality of some men. This mentality is determined largely by the race of the men.
I point to the pack rape of television journalist Lara Logan, in the centre of Cairo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWV4cTpTAI8

and this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VILb-b2aA5c

[hailey_mailman]

Men can walk around shirtless but when they are sexually harassed, it is the women's fault for not keeping her hands to herself. I think it is fair then to also assume that it is not the woman's clothing at fault, but the man for not being about to keep his hands to himself.

[multitudea]

Is a man ever sexually harassed by women?

[hailey_mailman]

Of course, but usually those kinds of cases aren't to his favor in court

[multitudea]

I highly doubt a woman ever seexualy harass a man

[hailey_mailman]

I mean it's not like I'm pulling this out of my ass 😂 Tons of my guy friends have talked about it before (not happening to them but it's existence). If you google "can women sexually harass men" you can confirm it in a second

[multitudea]

But women don't really like men sexually and don't even have sexual feelings, so why the heck would a woman sexually harassed a man?

[hailey_mailman]

You don't think women are capable of having sexual feeling? Is this is a b8? 😅 Are you trolling me?

[multitudea]

That's what I have learned. Women don't like men sexually, women lack sexual feelings. They hate sex

[hailey_mailman]

Did you also learn that blacks are an inferior race? Women are plenty capable of having sexual feelings, because if they're not attracted to men and they hate sex, why would they have it in the first place? Why would female masturbation be a thing if they don't like sex? I don't see how you could have come to that conclusion

[multitudea]

You are still a kid, you don't know anything about women and their sexual feelings.

[hailey_mailman]

Are you serious? 😂😅 For a 30 year old man, you really need to get educated on these things or at least be willing to listen when a FEMALE tells you how females think. I'm not here to deceive you or lie to you. I'm just trying to help

[multitudea]

What? You trying to say women have sexual feelings, like men sexually, have sexual attraction towards men and can even intiate sex and sexually harass a man? I highly doubt

[hailey_mailman]

Then you don't have to listen to my words alone. Google it. Make a post on here about it.

[multitudea]

Even you intially said that a woman won't even look at a man walking shirtless in boxer briefs!
Isn't it enough to show women don't have sexual feelings and don't find male body appealing

[hailey_mailman]

What are you talking about? I never said that. I said men have the option of walking around shirtless, but if he sexually harassed in that time frame, it's still the woman's fault for what she does

[multitudea]

But have you ever heard of a woman raping or even sexually harassing a shirtless man?

[hailey_mailman]

Sure. I would assume women raping their husbands/boyfriends could very much so involve the scenario where the man was shirtless

[multitudea]

But women never even intiate sex in a relationship, why would they ever rape or harass a other man?

[hailey_mailman]

Yes they do? Women can go to bars and clubs to get laid right? Women can get on Tindr to get laid right? Those are all good examples of women trying intiate sex. Once again, please just google this. I would be sending you links but my account isn't leveled up enough for me to be able to. It's not that hard.

[multitudea]

OK, I will search it.
It's a total new thing to me about women

[hailey_mailman]

I can tell 😅

[multitudea]

But you are very very young girl and I doubt you or any girls around you still have any sort of sexual feelings and attractions towards men

[hailey_mailman]

That's not true actually. Plenty of girls lose their virginities in highschool. That's why teen pregnancy is a thing. I know that one of my friends lost hers in middle school. I, myself, get feelings like this some times. I don't act on it because I don't think that it'd be a smart decision but the feelings arise just like how teenage boys can get them

[multitudea]

Teenage girl gets pregnant because the boys don't control themselves and since girls are emotional and weak they fall for boys and end up having sex and getting pregnant. It doesn't mean girls like boys and want to have sex with boys.
Do you ever get sexual feelings about boys ?

[hailey_mailman]

I do 😂 just like most girls. Most girls meaning excluding lesbians and asexuales

[multitudea]

But girls never ever intiate sex, never watch porn and never propose boys

[hailey_mailman]

All three of those things are false. I've asked boys out before, I've watched porn, and I've never initiated sex but a few of my guy friends who Im close enough to have told me stories about girls who asked them to have sex.

[multitudea]

Maybe you and your girl friends are different than majority of women

[hailey_mailman]

I've lived in many places and have chatted with all kinds of people who have also chatted with all kinds of people. Once again, if my opinion isn't enough, Google it or ask your female friends. I'm not lying

[multitudea]

OK, will get back to you soon

[FakeName123]

@multitudea

I can recall 3 times a stranger girl in a club grabbed my crotch.

[multitudea]

@FakeName123 wow, you sure she deliberately grabbed it or it was an accidental brushing of her hands due to rush in the club?

[FakeName123]

@multitudea

Each time was on purpose. One case was actively trying to push it between my waistband inside my pants.

[multitudea]

@FakeName123 inside the pants?
What! :o
You reacted to it?

[FakeName123]

@multitudea

"tried" = she wasn't inside them, but she tried to push her hand there. My reaction was telling her to fekk off and leave.

[multitudea]

@FakeName123 I mean what was your reaction in the other cases when they tried to actually grab you!

[hailey_mailman]

@multitudea, did you end up finding all your answer? 😅 Sorry i wasn't very convincing but I hope this was educational for you 😋👍🏻

[multitudea]

Actually I postponed the idea of searching such stuff about women. I have an image of women as nice Angels who have good heart and don't have sexual feelings. I want to have that pure clean image of women in my mind, I don't wanna change that!

[Razzle-Bedazzle]

... Mentality of the individual who harrasses the woman.

Not all men sexual harrass women who wear provocative clothing, and some men sexually harass women even when they are all wrapped from head to toe... without wearing anything revealing or provocative.

[jacquesvol]

sexual harassment on the streets due to provocative clothing is due to provocative clothing as much as car theft is due to possession of a car.

[Djaaaay]

Opinion owner. Have you ever lived on the streets ?

[jacquesvol]

@Djaaaay I've hung around in many ill reputed backstreets: Cairo, Istanbul, Tunis, Algiers, Mexico DF, Marseilles, Barcelona, Paris, even Molenbeek. 😎

[Djaaaay]

Opinion owner. That's way cool. Bet that was a venture !!

[jacquesvol]

@Djaaaay OOPS, I forgot NYC and New Orleans after dark too.
And I once found myself walking around after dark, during a complete power outage in the unpaved streets of Louqsor in Upper Egypt. I was probably the only westerner. No light but the candles in some of the shop windows. But the Sudanese people there were -I guess- 6 ft tall. (N Sudan borders on S Egypt)

[Djaaaay]

Opinion owner. HHaha !! Damn , that's funny !! But I can relate to that. Very similar life , just different places

[jacquesvol]

@Djaaaay I've often been the only westerner within miles. :)

[Browneye57]

Both. Don't dress like a slut if you don't want attention. The funny thing is, the women that do this only want attention from the ones they want attention from - the rest are 'creepy'.
And guys are visually stimulated - if they see a pretty girl dressed all slutty and provacative surely they're gonna say something, or at least pay attention. Why wouldn't they? Why SHOULDN'T they?
And for the dumpy girls that have no looks, they just wish SOMEONE would pay attention to them.

Go figure, eh?

[SunsetStar]

On the other hand, some of us get plenty of unwanted attention no matter what. I dress quite conservatively, but I'm skinny with big breasts and a big rear. Yeah, I get a lot of gross comments that I really don't want to hear.

[fauchelevent]

I would say it's the mentality of the harassers. I'm bi so I'm attracted to girls in provocative clothing too - doesn't mean that I consider attempting to harass them. Not all harassers are men so I don't think it's fair to say the mentality of men but there is something about the mentality of those who harass people. But obviously it's not based on gender or all men would do it.

[Anonymous]

Both. There's not doubt the odds of that happening are heightened when you dress provocatively. Not nearly as many will pay you any mind if you dress down in sweat pants and a terrible t-shirt.
Mentality also plays a part because most men aren't doing that in the first place.

Depends what you mean by sexual harassment too. It's like that video from a couple of years ago that claimed that and you could make an argument that only one guy did anything wrong, but that was based on solely what the video creator said.

[Jager66]

#1 Sexual harassment is not a gender issue! don't be dumb, don't be a sexist. women and men both sexually harass people.
#2 It's dependent on the individual doing the harassing, not the "mentality of an entire gender"
#3 I'm going out on a limb here and guessing you're one of those Feminists who saw the "10 hours walking in NY as a woman" video and thought "OH SNAP!!" if that's the case then you no doubt have a very fucked up idea of what actually is and is not sexual harassment.