Why the phrases “toxic masculinity” “fragile masculinity” and “incel” are nothing more than ad hominems

[ADFSDF1996]

There are many phrases used incorrectly. Among those is “toxic masculinity” “fragile masculinity” and “incel”. In this take/article I’ll tell you why the phrases “toxic masculinity” “Fragile masculinity” and “incel” needs to stop being used to attack males.

My reaction when somebody uses the phrases “toxic masculinity” “fragile masculinity” and “incel” to belittle men.

1. Toxic masculinity originally meant something different:

Ironically the phrase “toxic masculinity” was not coined by the feminists, it was actually coined by the Mythopoetic men’s movement. The original intentions of the phrase “toxic masculinity” was to be used as a basis of self improvement for men, not to attack masculinity. The feminists and radical liberals alike merely took the phrase and distorted the original meaning in order to suit their own agenda of subjugating men. Nowadays, “toxic masculinity” is used by 4th wave feminists to shame strong, brave, charismatic and overall any impressive feats accomplished by men.

2. Biology not sociology:

The 4th wave feminists are so adamant on promoting pseudoscientific ideas like “redefining” masculinity. But fail to understand that biology plays a major role in masculinity based on the fact that there are around 6,500 genetic differences between males and females. From obvious traits like body structure, to smaller traits like skin and hair texture, to traits that can’t be seen with the naked eye like susceptibility to certain Illnesses and injuries. But the main biological difference is that males naturally have more testosterone than women which means that...

1.) Men naturally have more muscle mass

2.) men have denser bones

3.) Men have deeper voices

4.) men have more body hair

5.) men have a higher sex drive than women

6.) Testosterone allowed males to develop the male reproductive system

7.) Males are the sex that can impregnate, which means that we are much more visual than women when it comes to attraction.

3. Hypocrisy of 4th wave feminism and the radical liberals:

The whole misuse of the concept behind “toxic masculinity” is based on the hypocrisy of 4th wave feminism, an ideology that claims to be “pro freedom” and preaches against totalitarianism yet ironically practices Proto totalitarianism itself by trying to add restrictions on what can be said, shown and promoted in public or in the media. All while forcing their own agenda onto people. To get to the point, the way 4th wave feminism uses the phrase “toxic masculinity” can be described as being very totalitarian in nature since it aims at forcing men to be more submissive, weak and foppish.

4. ”Fragile masculinity” an ad hominem against males who refuse to conform:

Whenever a guy criticizes 4th wave masculinity, he’ll be accused of having “fragile masculinity” and he’ll also be called a “misogynist”. Because of the false dichotomy used by the 4th wave feminists “you’re either with us or against us”. When in reality most men who criticize 4th wave feminism still love women but they are simply pointing out flaws in an ideology that doesn’t practice what it preaches. While the phrase “fragile masculinity” is meant to be condescending towards the men who criticize 4th wave feminism.

Founder of “A voice for men”

5. Used to silence valid points:

Whenever a man speaks his mind and pokes holes in 4th wave feminism, instead of trying to make a good counter argument, they’ll accuse the man of having “fragile masculinity”, yet another pseudoscientific ad hominem meant to shame men who speak out against 4th wave feminism. It’s passive aggressive censorship.

6. “Incel” a new ad hominem is born:

A new type of ad hominem used primarily by sycophantic male feminists to insult non feminist men. This is a portmanteau of “involuntarily celibate” It’s a stupid hasty generalization and ad hominem that questions a man’s ability to find a partner.

Take it easy with the soy, will you.

7. Incel this, incel that:

I lost count of how often I heard this insult thrown around on the internet. Criticize 4th wave feminism or radical liberalism in any way and you’ll most likely get called a “incel” by some meat head that can’t argue with you using logic.

8. Closing:

Never apologize for being a masculine man. Always embrace your masculinity. Do not bow to misandrist false idols, do not conform to the proto totalitarian tactics used by the 4th wave feminists and radical liberals. And if your masculinity comes under attack, ask...

1.) Is it toxic to be strong in all ways?

2.) is it toxic to be protective fathers, husbands and sons?

3.) Is it toxic to demand fair treatment?

4.)Is it toxic to call out injustices?

5.) Is it toxic to want to strive to be the very best you can be?

6.) Is it toxic to lead?

7.) is it toxic to have fun?

8.) Is it toxic to like competition?

9.)Is it toxic to be versatile?

10.) Is it toxic to learn how to defend yourself?

11.) Is it toxic to want to be free?

The answer to those rhetorical questions is that there is nothing wrong with any of that. In fact they are all positive traits that all men should have.

For the record, I’m not a misogynist. I may criticize 4th wave feminism but criticizing feminism is not the same thing as misogyny. There are many women I respect and love. I believe in true freedom and being morally just which means calling out misinformation and injustices. I don’t believe in forcing people to conform, I believe in letting people be who they want to be as long as they aren’t causing physical harm to other people.

[DWD94]

Women/feminists shame men regardless of what men do. Even if you aren't an incel, they will say things to you like "I bet you have a tiny penis" or "No woman will ever like you, creep". It's a form of shaming language that seeks to shame men for questioning feminist groupthink or as a result of a man having the audacity to act outside of the status quo. Its an attempt to attack a man's ego by trying to attach the man's worth to his sexual prowess.

Awhile back, I got called an 'incel' on a post on facebook simply because I disagreed with the girl. It was a status about how she was concerned with all the jokes that get made about how guys refer to their wife's as 'the ball n chain'.
I simply said "Well its kinda true, marriage is pretty much the end of a guy's freedom. I've seen so many men that can't do so much as take a shit without consulting their wife. Plus what's the incentive to marriage anyway? Why buy the cow when the milk is free?"
Then as more people responded to my comment, the original poster said "Ignore the incel guys, dont feed him". I responded by saying "Incel? Do you honestly think shaming tactics work on me? You realize I've been dating someone for awhile now right? There's a difference between incels vs men that just refuse to put up with women's shit"

After that another woman replied saying "Oh so you're not an incel, you're just an asshole then. Got it"

At that point, I just lol'd and left.

[SomeGuyCalledTom]

I agree with your argument with the exception of your opening statement, as "women" implies this is a universal trait shared by all women. Many women are smart enough/ intuitive enough to have a deep understanding of men's value in the world, as potential partners, and as members of productive society. The "beta shaming" is unfortunately a very real-- and very old-- behaviour, and if we're gonna accept the term "toxic masculinity", then it's only fair to include this behaviour as a branch of "toxic femininity". But this behaviour certainly doesn't represent all women, and many actually come to men's defense when made the subjects of unfair scrutiny and shaming.

[DWD94]

@SomeGuyCalledTom

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Most of the time I've gotten shamed, its been by other women as well as feminists.

[SomeGuyCalledTom]

I'm not disagreeing that women are more likely to shame men than other men. I think that's pretty self evident. But that doesn't mean *all* women do it, which was my original contention. Agree on all other counts though.

[SirRexington]

Of course they are ad hominems. Just like soyboy, beta cuck and liberal have become ad hominems.

We also need to acknowledge (and some educators have) that the same traits commonly associated with toxic masculinity aren't inherently good or bad but can expressed in both positive and toxic ways. It's the individual man and how he channels those traits that matters.

[ADFSDF1996]

The difference is that when people use the words “white knight” “beta c*ck” and “soy boy”, the person receiving those ad hominems usually threw the first punch.

“Toxic masculinity” as used by the 4th wave feminists, is nothing more than a fictional boogeyman they created by perverting it’s original meaning. Toxic traits aren’t unique to one sex, they are shared by certain individuals of both sexes.

[brokenheartgirl]

I agree with you 100%.
Some so-called feminists use these kinds of phrases to get attention.
In reality, they are desperate for men's attention but somehow don't get it so they become like this.

All men are raised by women then how men are responsible for everything bad?

Recently, I try to be logical with a user here called @shehzadi in the comments section of an article she wrote about how society has dehumanized men. But she was extremely frustrated and blamed a whole country for not letting her be in a bikini.

Men protect woman because they care.
They want them to be safe and happy.

I have seen toxicity - and its not gender thing.
I request all feminist women.. please find something else to do with your life, rather than just blaming men.

[GraveDoll]

your respond makes soooo little sense I could break it with a toothpick with five sentences.

And im, not even a feminist. I just hate cherry picking and the likes. Your logic is faulty. When you brought mothers into it as if it just women doing the child raising

YOU killed it. You literally pointed the fingers at one gender. even with that one line, it didn't save it.

[CuteStraightSissyBoy]

What type of mentality would even post such a truly DUMB question?

[Lilypad1223]

I agree with most of what you said, but incels are a very real thing. You aren’t an incel for criticizing feminism. An incel is someone who truly believes that women are nothing but sex objects and they have incredibly worrisome views on how you can treat women. Look into Elliot Rodger or spend any amount of time on r/braincels. I’ve done both and it isn’t pretty.

[Lilypad1223]

Also when did we enter the fourth wave? Am I out of the loop? I thought we were still poking holes in 3rd wave.

[ADFSDF1996]

4th wave started when social media became the norm around 2008-2010.

[Lilypad1223]

I thought that was third

[DWD94]

To me, incels and feminists are 2 sides of the same coin.

[Lilypad1223]

Not exactly, I would say that mgtow and feminists are more closely comparable. Incels can be female as well, but mostly they don’t care about rights they only care about sex.

[DWD94]

Except MGTOW's dont send death threats, harass or try to get people fired... Thats what feminists do.

MGTOW's make youtube videos.. and thats it.

Feminists are more comparable with incels. Both are militant groups.

[Lilypad1223]

Incels don’t care about rights, they only care about they’re own problems, there are feminists who do that but not like incels. As much as I disagree with modern feminism I don’t think they can be compared to incels because they are in a way trying to get equal rights even though it’s moot because they already have them, incels are just whiny and sit around feeling sorry for themselves, it isn’t a movement. Mgtows on the other hand is a movement, a movement which tells men that they have to act a certain way (I. e. avoiding women at all cost and belittling any man who decides to get a girlfriend)

[DWD94]

MGTOW isn't really about avoiding women. There are some that go that route but the only requirement is to refuse marriage. You can still date as a MGTOW and many do. I consider myself MGTOW and I still date/have sex.

And the other reason I feel that incels and feminists are 2 sides of the same coin is because incels are a manifestation of the very traits feminist women have (entitlement, projection, narcissism, etc). In fact, thats the biggest reason that both groups hate each other, projection.

[Lilypad1223]

For a man in mgtow to “go their own way” they have to go the way everyone else in mgtow is going or else you get shit for it from everyone else in the movement. Incels to have all of those traits, but they aren’t doing it because they think they’re helping anyone, at least feminists think they’re helping people. Feminists don’t kill people, incels have. If you go on reddit you can access feminist pages but you have to jump through hoops to get to the incel subreddit. They are different, incels have very dangerous ideas and feminists are just crybabies.

[DWD94]

Feminists don't have dangerous ideas? I'd highly beg to differ. Feminists support language policing, censorship, etc. How are those not dangerous?

Also there's a name for self-professed 'MGTOW' that judge other men for how they choose to go their own way. We call them 'PIGTOW'.

Feminists may not have 'killed' anyone, but they still send death threats, harass people, and support doxing. So that still makes them a militant group.

[Lilypad1223]

Those are dangerous ideas, but they don’t physically harm anyone. If that’s the case for mgtows than every single one of the major players in the movement is a pigtow. I would rather get a death threat than be shot or run over by an incel any day, at least you’re still alive to report them to the police.

[DWD94]

" I would rather get a death threat than be shot or run over by an incel any day, at least you’re still alive to report them to the police."

What about doxxing? Especially if the doxxing results in you being harmed physically by some SJW wanting to take the law into their own hands.

And the other things feminists push for are just as harmful such as doing away with innocent until proven guilty.

[Lilypad1223]

Yeah doxxing is horrible, I 100% feel for people who have been doxxed, I have talked to people who have been doxxed. But guess what, that’s illegal too and they can absolutely be charged with a crime as they should be, people need to be held accountable for what they do. Do you really think there’s never been a mgtow who has doxxed someone? SJWs are annoying but I’m not scared of them, the ones who assault people are reprehensible garbage but that’s very few of them, you’d be hard pressed to find an incel that didn’t want to hurt women. As for doing away with innocent until proven guilty, when have we ever really had that? You can go to prison for a crime you didn’t commit, it’s always been that way, “oh you were proven innocent in a rape claim? Too bad you’re life is over” that should never happen and I agree with you that the notion of guilty until proven innocent is wrong, but that doesn’t change the fact that incels and feminists are too very different beasts.

[Lliam]

All good points, Lilypad1223. You won me in the debate. :-)

[Lilypad1223]

😸 😸

[Robertcw]

"An incel is someone who truly believes that women are nothing but sex objects and they have incredibly worrisome views on how you can treat women." That's not the definition of incel.

Incel: Any person who is involuntarily celibate.

[Robertcw]

@DWD94 "thats the biggest reason that both groups hate each other, projection." That's deep man.

[OlderAndWiser]

Excellent analysis, excellent discussion!

[ADFSDF1996]

Thank you.

[MzAsh]

Men “ back in the day” practiced an ungodly amount of deceit, abuse, infidelity, and narcissism. That’s what is toxic.

That’s what’s under attack, as it should be... regardless of what it’s called.

[MzAsh]

Oh and I forgot to mention they had entirely too much control over women and society.

[ADFSDF1996]

Deceit, abuse, infidelity and narcissism aren’t unique to men.

[MzAsh]

Of course, but it used to be much more acceptable for men.

[ADFSDF1996]

And you think matriarchies are any better?

[MzAsh]

Didn’t say that

[ADFSDF1996]

With you constantly expressing your disgust towards men on this site, it’s fair to assume that kind of dystopian society is what you want.

[MzAsh]

I don’t have disgust for men today, but I do have disgust for how things used to be, and how some men seem to want to go back there that.

[ADFSDF1996]

Criticizing feminism does not mean men want things to be like they use to be.

[MzAsh]

Neither is criticizing masculinity wanting a matriarchy.

[Hypnos0929]

I want to say yes because there were certainly more abusive men in the past but I also feel like women liked those men more. It was a very "Street Car Named Desire" situation for many women who knew how toxic their guy was but chose to stay.
Now there's women who say they want the good men but prove otherwise via actions because many still want the strength of men in the past. Trying to stop men from cheating, lying, and abusing their partners is a very noble thing but you've gotta remember not every man will change, not every person can be fixed.

[MzAsh]

I think women back then thought they were supposed to like those men. I’ve learned that my own grandma spent over 50 years with my grandpa and they shouldn’t have ever been together. Their marriage was toxic af. But divorce was so looked down upon especially in religious families, that it was endured anyway. That is one thing I’ll never have anything to do with.

[CasaNorba]

if men did not practice what you're currently misinterpreting and criticizing you wouldn't exist right now. I'm pretty sure your grandma chose your grandfather for a reason, same with all your other foremothers.

till then what you're describing in your first sentence is exactly what women especially feminists practice nowadays yet you dont see that being under attack. which it should be but i'm guessing the main reason is not is because you all love attacking like victims when you all get called out on this; talk about hypocrisy

[Lliam]

You are right, MzAsh. The problem was that, in the past, men were completely in control. Women had no rights at all. Things are changing, but we still haven't achieved equity in terms or rights.

As for women sticking with toxic men in the past, as you mentioned with your grandparents. There are two points, 1) Women had to get married in order to survive. Unfortunately, some women got married before they knew just how toxic their partner was because people were allowed to court but they often weren't allowed to get to know their partners well before marriage. And 2) Once married, divorce was strongly frowned upon. And once divorced, she was back in the position of having no means of support. Except she was even worse off because a divorcee was less marketable.
Some single women with no inheritance often had no other recourse than to become prostitutes in order to survive. Or they took menial jobs and were subjected to predatory bosses.
Thank goodness things began to change in the U. S. during WWII when more job opportunities became available for women and they got a taste of independence.

[QooLipBite]

Men “back in the day” also practiced chivalry, honour, protecting and providing for their loved ones on a LARGER scale than criminals who practiced assault.

So stfu. 😂

[MzAsh]

How do you know that, lip bite?

[Lliam]

@QooLipBite, your point is correct.

[MzAsh]

It sounds nice and all, and it is to a point. Men provided for and protected women because they were seen as people who couldn’t (or shouldn’t) provide for or protect themselves. They were seen as caregivers for the children. And women believed that’s all they were supposed to be in life. Now we know better. Now we want to protect and provide for ourselves.

[Lliam]

@MzAsh. You're right... to a point. But men didn't provid for and protect women BECAUSE "they were seen as people who couldn’t (or shouldn’t) provide for or protect themselves." They did so, in most cases, because they were nice guys doing their best for their spouses and their families within the social norms of the times. Social norms dictated what both men and women thought they were supposed to do. But that doesn't mean that husbands motives were bad.
It's a fallacy when certain types of feminists these days generalize and assume that men's motives are bad; that they are all part of some great patriarchal conspiracy.

[MzAsh]

It just so happened that social norms had men running everything and using that power to their full advantage? You don’t think that was premeditated? Whether or not their motives were bad, their actions must definitely were.

[Lliam]

It wasn't premeditated. Premeditated by whom? Did someone vote on it? When? That would be like saying the water in the pond was premeditated by the fish. People are born into a culture and they think that's the way things have always been. But they didn't create the culture. And, as you said, women were also playing by the same rules because they thought "it's just the way things are". It was no different for men.
I keep getting the feeling that you think men are badguys. It's a common third generation feminist trope.

[MzAsh]

I don’t think men are bad guys. I think they’ve been duped into thinking that they’re supposed to control women. They’re not and never will.

[CasaNorba]

@MzAsh once again you're falsely accusing men of doing something that women nowadays do best. but thanks to you all having vaginas you all have pretty much succeeded at this for quite a while.

luckily a lot of men like myself are waking up and seeing society for what it really is

[MzAsh]

Women do is best, of course. I’m not arguing that. Good men appreciate the nature of how we are.

[CasaNorba]

good men? sounds more like pussy deprived cucks

[MzAsh]

Don’t be jealous of them. They’re hot.

[Lliam]

I'm with ya, Mz.
The idea of men being in "control" is bullshit. I don't think either gender should be in control. We can all work together. The world will be a better place if we do.

[CasaNorba]

@Lliam why won't you marry her?

the point is that the only men who were ever in control and still are till this day are men in politics. men always had to work their asses off to be the provider back then and even till this day despite the fact women can still work and have lots of rights nowadays. instead they divorce rape us, they keep the kids and while they life off us via child support.

so you tell me who is really in control here

[Lliam]

@CasaNorba, sound like a victim. boo hoo Do you think that the only way to be happy in life is to rule over people? Do you need to rule over women the same way whites ruled over blacks in America for centuries? That's just sad.
I haven't suffered any abuse from women. Their autonomy hasn't cost me a thing. In fact, I've benefited.

[CasaNorba]

@Lliam victim? nah buddy, victim calling is an infamous tactic used by the real victims that want to appear tough in an argument.

till then where exactly did i say you must "rule over people" to be happy in life? aside from trying to be a hero you're now trying to put words in my mouth; I guess this further confirms who the real whiny victim here is.

and no buddy, unlike black folks women were NEVER ENSLAVED OR SEGREGATED so do your research next time before you blow things out of proportion.

"I haven't suffered any abuse from women. Their autonomy hasn't cost me a thing. In fact, I've benefited."

why am I not surprised? oh thats right BECAUSE YOU NEED TO BE WITH WOMEN in order to experience any of that. for some reason you sound like the typical 17 year old virgins in this site despite your profile saying your 65

[Lliam]

@CasaNorba, have you always been single? If not, you must have gotten dumped. You've got a real chip on your shoulder. You're like the guy who keeps complaining that nobody likes him but never stops to consider that he is the problem, not everybody else.
Keep whining bro.

[CasaNorba]

"You're like the guy who keeps complaining that nobody likes him but never stops to consider that he is the problem, not everybody else.
Keep whining bro."

thats a lot of psychological projection you're doing there buddy. remember you're the one who invaded this first trying to be a hero picking drama with a motherfucker who's literally 33 years younger than you like you're gonna get rewarded with some type of treat for doing so.

till then yea I wish you were right about me being single all of my life. unlike you I learned a lot of trial and error from my past relationships, if I knew back then what I know now I probably would of start fucking escorts in high school like I am now.

[MlleCake]

We're witnesses.

[ADFSDF1996]

@MlleCake

[esotericstory]

always using children for political purposes, a hallmark of liberal propaganda.

[esotericstory]

whether its the migration crisis, feminism or environmentalism, children are always exploited by liberals for their propaganda. Leftists have never seen humans as humans, only as work forces. Thats akin to the bourgeoisie logic, previously to that patrician logic of the feudal system.

[Kas19]

@esotericstory Interesting. My family are a bunch of righties and they use children for propaganda too. Even said children were sacrifices for the second amendment. What you did was called "a reach". A dull one at that.

[esotericstory]

@Kas19 European right wing has never used children for propaganda.

[Hypnos0929]

Men empathize way more than you realize but it's harder to empathize for other men. Women crying is a weak spot for me but I wouldn't let it destroy my rationality.

[RolandCuthbert]

Haha!!!

[RolandCuthbert]

@ADFDF1966, yeah you didn't generalize.

Haha!

[ADFSDF1996]

@RolandCuthbert Pinpointing a group of extremists isn’t a generalization.

[RolandCuthbert]

@ADFSF1996, sorry didn't see this.

Incels are a group of extremists.

[ADFSDF1996]

@RolandCuthbert And calling a man who simply criticizes feminism a so called “incel” is nothing more than an ad hominem. Incels don’t speak for the men’s rights activist community as a whole.

[RolandCuthbert]

"And calling a man who simply criticizes feminism a so called “incel” is nothing more than an ad hominem. Incels don’t speak for the men’s rights activist community as a whole. "

Yawn. . . I have been here for about two years. I can't tell you the number of males who have posted threads or posted me directly making the claim that they can't find a woman to date, or they are too awkward looking, or they social skills or that feminism is an obstacle or some other weird thing, is preventing them from having a relationship or having sex.

I didn't put those words into their mouths, they posted me with that nonsense. This is besides the fact there have too many men who have posted who self-identify as being incels.

And yeah, I find it really weird when guys "criticize" feminism. Because they are criticizing a belief system that was not made for them, that does not care about their issues, and you would think if we were men, that we would figure out how to address our issues on our own.

But nah, somehow in GaG it is masculine to go begging women to be concerned about us and to provide us with answers to our problems.

This place is weird.

In fact, it is weirder than weird.

That's why I asked the question;

What Are Masculine Traits? ↗

[ADFSDF1996]

@RolandCuthbert The reason why people in general criticize feminism is because it doesn’t practice what it preaches and it’s a misandrist movement.

[Wally48]

Remember the 2016 newsreels of 8 year olds standing along side Trump's motorcade, flipping it off and yelling "fuck Trump"?
You think Spongebob told them to do it?
Tell me again how inclusive and accepting liberal parents are.

[MlleCake]

What does that have to do with what I said?

And I would have done that entirely of my own volition at that age.

[RolandCuthbert]

@ADFSDF1996

People can criticize feminism all they want. They will not make a male take responsibility for himself, his life, and his issues.

Only he can do that.

[ADFSDF1996]

@RolandCuthbert What makes you think the man is always at fault?

[Browneye57]

So much bullshit... so little time. Don't coddle little boys and try to turn them into little girls. PLEASE.

[RolandCuthbert]

What makes you think you can be a man. . .

get this. . .

be a man. . .

and not be responsible for what happens in your life?

You need to focus on controlling your environment. Jordan Peterson says start by doing simple things, like cleaning your room, wearing clean clothes, making yourself presentable. . . etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpTG1GauPLI

[ADFSDF1996]

@RolandCuthbert responsibility is a two way street.

[CoffeeWC]

Feminism is full of misinformation

[puzzlez]

I feel like as a woman who supports masculine men but is against toxic masculinity, I should point out... your argument is hard to follow. You lost me a few sentences in when you started ranting about feminism. And I think you're misconstruing what "toxic masculinity" means.

I do agree that some people like to throw the term around liberally, often in anger to insult a man. However, toxic masculinity is not intended to make a man ASHAMED of being masculine. Rather, it points out the fact that some men become too obsessed with what it means to "be" masculine. Eg: Men dont shave their legs - people who do, like pro swimmers, aren't 'manly.' Men dont play house as boys because play-acting how to run a household is for girls to do. Men can't be fashion designers because that's about 'being pretty' which is a 'feminine' occupation.

Those examples came from things I've heard my students and their parents say (I am a high school teacher) and are not far-fetched examples.

There is nothing wrong with having a beard, hairy arms, a deep voice, or anything else that a man believes to fall under the category of 'masculinity.' Just as there is nothing wrong with a man not liking to have hairy arms, a beard, etc. Personal choice of one's life =/= how 'masculine' a man is.

I definitely agree that masculinity is dictated by biology, but sociology (the environment one is raised in) definitely feeds into it. A teenage boy takes an interest in fashion designing after taking home-ec and realizes he likes making clothing, something he's never had an opportunity to do in a household with a father who has strict ideals of what being 'masculine' means. That teenage boy was effected by sociology, and since his father believes sewing to be womans work, one could argue that sociology affected the teenage boys masculinity (or so his father might argue). His father would be exhibiting toxic masculinity - "you are not masculine as a man *should be*."

That being said, I dont believe that hobbies or interests make a man any less 'masculine'. I dont think there's anything wrong with being 'masculine'. in my opinion, the issue begins when men push what they believe to be 'masculine' on other men because they're not satisfied with what they see in other men -- when honestly, it's not your life to judge.

[bamesjond0069]

Disagree. If you have a son and you really care about him, don't you want him to find a good wife and have an easy time of it? Women as a whole do not like feminine men. You would let your kid do something to screw up their value to a family? Its just wrong. I would want my son to be masculine in business, relationships and life because that is overall what would be in his best interests. Once he is an adult he's free to do whatever he wants but as a minor there is no way id let my so be involved in fashion design or allow him to shave his legs. Thats how you attract a boyfriend! Lmao.

[Kaytiee]

@bamesjond0069 Masculine men are not made my manipulating their ways as they grow. Masculine men will be masculine as far as I'm concerned if you have to take extra steps to be masculine, you're already not masculine.

Who said we want our boys to be feminine? No one Is saying that, stop being irrational and assuming everything, females may prefer a more masculine man statistics wise but will a feminine man also find a wife? Yes.

[bamesjond0069]

@Kaytiee feminine men usually get bad wives and he would be stuck with that. Ugh. Id never want that for my kids. Same in reverse, what kind of men want manly wives, not any good ones thats for sure.

[Xoxocutekitty]

Interesting take! I've never heard of the term incel but as someone who has been relatively educated in the 3/4th wave feminism and logical fallacies, I do see how these phrases around masculinity are ad hominems. I've never considered this, so thank you. In regards to your conclusion, I will try to push back on a couple of points, not so much to dismiss the hypocrisy of the movement, but to diffuse the expectations of fairness surrounding it's injustice.
1) Consider a vacation to a distant land where the currency of your (dollar I assume) is more than the local currency. Perhaps its not that much. Let's compare USD to CAN. When you shop for something, say a coat, with your USD in Canada, often times, the cost is less for you (due to currency exchange) as and because of existing relations, your USD is accepted at the local vendor. Consider the opposite. A Canadian walks into a shop in new York. The cost of buying the same coat is respectively more expensive, and your Canadian money will not be accepted, and is often ridiculed in the process. Currency is currency, but it favors one side, and there are more finite restrictions on the other. In certain aspects (not all), this is what being a women is like. Where you may be given more or less money begin with, and there are always women rich enough to bypass the barriers of the common price, but there are more restrictions on how your money is fairly exchanged. The feminist movement has started to question examples of undue "social taxes" or restrictions or behaviors towards women that are not fair. But it is within the general audience to either listen, act upon, or dismiss these claims. The movement is mostly spearheaded by young individuals- individuals without the same claim to power or authority or the language to properly explain not just how something is not fair, but the solution to fix it. In fact, no one knows the solution yet. As a society, one can choose to give merit to the claims something is not equal, but continue to offer a solution for the disadvantaged party, instead of discussing how a solution comes at the direct expense of the pre-existing system (ie. masculinity).

[RolandCuthbert]

I have no idea about this toxic masculinity. But I do have my ideas about what is or is not masculine. And unlike so many guys here, I really do not care what feminists think about masculinity. Women really bad at deciding what is or is not masculine. I mean, they do the feminine thing.
.
1.) Never met a man who was strong in all ways. It is rather silly to think that actually.

2.) It is masculine to protect and defend those who cannot protect/defend themselves. It is rather silly to do it for a woman who does not want it. Find someone else to date.

3.) Of course not. But if you can't call it out for other people why whine when people refuse to call it out for you or yours?

4.) Ditto.

5.) That's masculine. . . that's being a man.

6.) Same.

7.) Well, I have to admit. It was fun being young and running into another male at about 30 miles per hour. But I don't think that's toxic. That's just a great time!

8.) Same.

9.) What?

10.) Of course not.

11.) What does that even mean?

I find your comment on incels to be hilarious. As though these men did not label themselves. They use the term, they say they are "involuntarily celibate". They enumerated their issues with women and with guys like me who have no issues dating and having romantic relationships with women. They are the ones who blame everyone else for their lack of success with dating or even being social. And someone has convinced them that their problems are all the fault of liberals, women, feminism, etc.

Then on top of that, they think their whining is the epitome of being masculine.

Hmmm. . . I wonder who gave them that idea?

Is an INCEL'S lack of romantic success their fault or the fault of something else? ↗

[AlienParasite]

Mhhh I agree to some extent?
Many people use those terms just as ad hominem, but still they have a meaning or I understand a meaning despite their bad use.

Toxic masculinity = Person with toxic psychological traits, that is also a man

Fragile masculinity = Men that don't feel masculine enaugh, with low self esteem. Nothing to mock or laugh at.

Incel = Involuntary Celibate. Person (man or woman) who wants to have sex but aren't able to get in any sexual activity. Curious data, first incel called so was a woman who created incel community for emotional support. Then the term became negative when incel forums got full of guys who hated and desired woman with almost same intensity. Still I don't think laughing at someone for not being able to get a sexual partner is ok, it could only increase a bitter behavior.

About how feminism use it, I've seen feminist use the three, BUT I've perfectly seen not feminists using the last two, specially incel is used by anyone. Also feels weird to try to always define a whole movement, as I know some girl who call themselves feminists and not all practice or believe the same ideas about feminism.

[GreatnessBack]

I actually looked up the Mythopoetic men's movement and it states the avoidance of toxic masculinity on immature males.
Exert:
"In the mythopoetic movement, the desire to be spiritual and yet manly is also a factor in the way the group understands the nature of gender and relationships between the sexes. The mythopoetic movement tends to regard gender as biological realities, "hardwired" into the psyches of men and women. This gender essentialism is consistent with the Jungian philosophy undergirding the movement. Mythopoetic men thus speak of the need to recover "deep masculinity," to distinguish what they regard as genuine or mature masculinity from the problematic toxic masculinity of immature males.[8]"

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mythopoetic_men%27s_movement

Toxic masculinity is not used in the same manner it has been used.

[Cait_Lyn]

I hate how feminism has become synonym for feminarcism. I consider myself a feminist. I do not hate men. I believe in the equality (not superiority) of women. Does that make me a bad person in your eyes?
The way I understand it "toxic masculinity" is when society's expectations of "being a man" creates a harmful mentally - to both men and women. For example that men have to be "strong" in every sense, all the time. That men don't cry, that men can't be emotional or hurt. How is that fair to anybody?
I do not wish to offend, but I cannot entirely agree with what OP is saying and it makes me sad to see how feminism is viewed.

[bamesjond0069]

You are a woman. Men do not experience emotions the same way you do. Men are meant to control their outward display of emotions, that's a functioning man. One who cries at inopportune times has something wrong with them. Lets flip the script, toxic femininity is women crying. Men don't go around crying all the time so therefore women shouldn't do that, its toxic for women to cry as often as they do.

[CuteStraightSissyBoy]

bamesjond0069 Is a very very sad and confused little boy. I've never seen anyone parrot so much laughable nonsense in one place.

[Kas19]

This could have been really educational and informative had you used examples and explain HOW feminists or misandrists do these things. Like, I'm confused on what feminists consider toxic. Because I haven't heard anyone complain about any of the things you listed.

[Inbox]

Just go to CNN. com or listen to Democratic leaders (NOT a political statement, just pure observations).

[NaultD]

Just change masculinity into your personal behavior. The good, the bad, and the ugly as your own personal creed, responsibility and standards. To say that is the only way or dodge responsibility as it's the only way to be is the stupid part.

Sign your own name for your own actions and the accolades and consequences as your own. They can't be anything to say. You are who you want to be as much as anyone else. If you're an asshole, you're an asshole. You're a good guy, you're a good guy. If you want to change it's on you.

[Jan_Classic]

First these b1tches spoil the local white men. Then they import the black migrants due to they are more savage and have got b1gger d1cks. But when the amount of crimes go a little bit out of control, like mass shooting in Paris or truckageddoning crowd of tourists in Nice, their explanation is "Toxic masculinity" and "More gun control". No, you imported the radical psychopats, they will kill the gay (all) white males and rape their women like they normally do at home regardless the age. Nobody will be held accountable, nobody will be charged. The age of the white man has come to it's end.

[bolverk]

Feminists can call me whatever they like, it will not change who and what I am.
I am a single white man, one of those who the Intersectional/Identitarian Feminists hold responsible for all the ‘wrongs’ in the world, but will not engage in logical debate about those ‘wrongs’ as they have no factual solid data to back up their claims.
So I will continue with my life unaffected by what they ‘think’, I will defend, help, and protect those that are in need but not force my views on any, unless I am asked to share them (this is something that Intersectional/Identitarian Feminists need to learn).
Watch this video with Karen Straughan that bounces 'toxic masculinity' off 'toxic femininity'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0zQf5NMG8E

[HungLikeAHorsefly]

When you say "Nowadays, 'toxic masculinity' is used by 4th wave feminists to shame strong, brave, charismatic and overall any impressive feats accomplished by men", I wonder what impressive feats you think 4th wave Feminists are shaming.

Despite knowing a lot of Feminists and living in an area with a very high density of Feminists, I've never heard anyone use the phrase "toxic masculinity" the way you think they do.

I guess what I'm trying to say is this: the title of your Take leads one to believe you understand argumentative fallacies like Ad Hominem. Yet, what you've said is largely a mixture of both Genetic and Straw Man fallacies.

[ADFSDF1996]

There you go again with your personal biases and usage of cherry picking. Just because the feminists you encountered never used this phrase doesn’t mean others haven’t.

[HungLikeAHorsefly]

The same goes for you. You're generalizing entire groups of people based on your own personal experience. Or, worse, on things you've heard.

Unless, that is, you can actually substantiate some of the things you've said. Like, what masculine traits is it that you think Feminists label as "toxic", but aren't? Can you give an example of when Feminists have claimed something other than the fact that there are genetic differences between men and women? What "valid points" are being silenced?

[ADFSDF1996]

Ah the irony, wasn’t it you whole labeled all conservatives as “Proto fascists”?

[HungLikeAHorsefly]

I never label all Conservatives anything. I may have said that about some, though. Now, please explain how your Take isn't one big jumble of logical fallacies.

[ADFSDF1996]

If you want valid points here they are.

1.) Male victims of sex abuse are often ignored and treated as expendable

2.) Female criminals get lesser sentences than male criminals for the same crime.

3.) Males makeup a larger percentage of workplace fatalities

4.) males make up a larger percentage of wartime fatalities (both military and civilian)

5.) No shelters for male victims of rape

6.) Men are more likely to be falsely accused of a sex crime than women.

7.) It’s socially acceptable to make fun of short men

Need more?

[HungLikeAHorsefly]

And how are these points (which I think are valid, BTW) put? I often see dudes saying things like "men are victims of sex abuse too" as a way to invalidate someone's point about women being victims of sex abuse. I mean, do you really think Feminists label people who bring points up like this as having "fragile masculinity"?

[ADFSDF1996]

Yes you did label all conservatives as proto fascists in a different post.

It’s not a jumble of fallacies, your personal biases make think so because you haven’t thoroughly analyzed both sides of the argument. You only

[ADFSDF1996]

Because male victims of sex abuse are often neglected by society. People need to be reminded that it’s not a black and white issue.

[HungLikeAHorsefly]

Oh yeah? When did I do that?

It is very much a jumble of fallacies. Let's go through it.

1. How a phrase was originally coined is irrelevant to what it means now. You're judging the phrase by its origins, which is a Genetic Fallacy. Then you follow it up by saying Feminists have rebranded it to shame men for "impressive feats", without actually saying what those feats are, how men are shamed for them or why that's bad. This is a combination of the Hasty Generalization and Straw Man fallacies, as you've given the reader absolutely no reason to believe that Feminists actually think that, or that you're aware of what they do and don't do.

2. You're confusing two different concepts here, by conflating the concept of masculinity with sexual dimorphism. It's an invalid viewpoint that nobody actually has. Then you attack it, which is a Straw Man fallacy.

3. You're accusing Feminists of being hypocrites because they're totalitarian yet espouse to be "pro freedom", without demonstrating that Feminists are actually totalitarian. You're Begging the Claim, which is yet another fallacy.

4. You're saying that men get attacked for simply making valid criticisms of Feminism, and that men actually love women when they do so. Both of those claims are completely unsubstantiated - you don't even bother to give hypothetical examples. More Straw Man fallacies.

5. Basically the same as #4

6. "incel" is a hasty generalization. You're right about that. There's no reason to believe it was created by male feminists. In the best case scenario, this is a Post Hoc Ergo Proper Hoc fallacy.

7. People probably do make ad hominem attacks with this, yes.

8. You'd be right to question these things. If, in fact, people were claiming that these things are toxic. Which is highly unlikely.

[ADFSDF1996]

1.) It’s important to know where a phrase came from, to show how it was distorted.

2.) Feminists often try to make it seem that males and females are one and the same. Specially by trying to make men be more feminine.

3.) How about forcing their sons to wear dresses and get “sex changes”. Tell me how that’s not totalitarian and abusive.

4.) feminists often accuse men of being prone to violence but refuse to acknowledge that women can also be prone to violence.

8.) You see the picture of the man carrying the woman? A lot of feminists were upset about it for some reason.

[HungLikeAHorsefly]

1. No, it isn't, because having been distorted isn't important.

2. Feminists believe women can do the same things as men. They do not believe there is no difference between men and women.

3. While I'm sure there are a few who do that, you don't actually think that's a very popular belief among Feminists, do you? I mean, that's like saying all Conservatives like burning crosses in black people's yards, or that all soldiers kill civilians during war. And if that's not a mainstream or even popular belief, then how can you say Feminists are totalitarian, or hypocrites?

4. You're probably right about this. Yet, it is true that the incident rate of violence against women dwarfs the rate of violence against men by a massive margin. And then there's also the issue that domestic abuse is much more common among lesbian couples than most Feminists would like to admit...

8. I don't buy that. Got any evidence?

[ADFSDF1996]

1.) So if somebody takes the melody of your favorite song and changes the lyrics to be hateful, would you be okay with that?

2.) On paper, that’s what feminism is supposed to be. But what is on paper doesn’t always go well in practice.

3.) Hence I said 4th wave feminists although elements of misandry can be traced to 2nd wave feminism. Valorie Solanas once called men a “biological accident”.

4.) Glad to see we agree on some things. Violence against men is often times underreported and indeed women can be violent as well. Humans in general can be violent as well. And you are right, that there is a high percentage of domestic violence between lesbian couples.

5.) www.google.com/.../618567001 third paragraph down

[HungLikeAHorsefly]

1. Sure. And the music I like has nothing to do with anything.

2. Show me an example of Feminists who think there's no biological difference between men and women. I ask because I don't think anyone does.

3. What you call "4th wave Feminism", I call a lunatic fringe. This isn't a mainstream sentiment, and you're cherry picking to prove a point.

5. Follow the link in your article. The person who tweeted that pic says she was being sarcastic. So far no evidence that people associate that pic with "toxic masculinity". Which is about right, since that's not what it means.

[ADFSDF1996]

1.) It’s to put it into perspective

2.) https://www. google. com/amp/s/www. lgbtqnation. com/2019/06/lesbian-couple-confessed-butchering-child-wanted-girl/%3famp

3.) It’s not cherry picking when it’s a common occurrence. 4th wave feminism is just another name for Western feminism. Nobody is arguing against feminism in the Middle East but both males and females actively oppose western feminism/4th wave feminism. In fact, most people here in the US don’t identify as feminists. https://www. google. com/amp/s/www. BBC. com/news/amp/uk-politics-47006912

4.) That’s only one of the many tweets.

[ADFSDF1996]

Looks like the links don’t work, so here they are.

www.google.com/.../

www.google.com/.../amp

www.google.com/.../uk-politics-47006912

[HungLikeAHorsefly]

1. Still irrelevant.

2. I asked for evidence that Feminists think there isn't any difference between men and women, not evidence that some people in Brazil mutilate children.

3. You still haven't demonstrated that forcing boys to wear dresses and things like that is a mainstream practice among Feminists. You absolutely are cherry picking here.

4. Then it should be easy for you to point a few that aren't being sarcastic.

[ADFSDF1996]

1.) I can’t dumb it down for you anymore.

2.) feminists trying to turn their sons into females is enough evidence to show that feminists believe that males and females are the same. And that was only one incident.

3.) It’s not just a matter of feminists forcing boys to wear dresses, it’s a matter of feminists promoting effeminacy for men. www.louderwithcrowder.com/.../

4.) Sure, I’ll just dig through the thousands of tweets surrounding that photo just to pick a few tweets.

[HungLikeAHorsefly]

1. No need. Dumbing it down won't make it any more relevant.

2. If one example is enough to summarize the beliefs of an entire group, then I'll just go ahead and assume all Conservatives are racists...

3. What I'm asking is why you think these ahem... cherry picked... incidents represent most Feminists.

4. I don't really know what to say about this one. You seem to be saying that you don't want to pick through thousands of tweets that aren't Feminists objecting to the pic, to find the handful of those who do. Is that what you're saying? If so, this supports my position.

[HungLikeAHorsefly]

In case that last one needs clarification: if a lot of Feminists are upset about it, then it should be no problem for you to find an example. You wouldn't have to go through thousands of tweets to find one. The fact that you think you would have to, though, supports the fact that Feminists don't actually find it offensive.

[ADFSDF1996]

1.) Nope, you’re just being evasive.

2.) It’s not just one example, do you expect me to link every single case? And don’t forget that you called conservatives “Proto fascists” before, so it wouldn’t surprise me if you actually think conservatives are all “racists”.

3.) Again, it’s not cherry picking if it’s a common occurrence.

4.) Why don’t you look yourself?

[ADFSDF1996]

Oh and here is an example of a feminist claiming masculinity in general is toxic.

www.google.com/.../all-masculinity-is-toxic

Now before you claim it’s “cherry picking” that’s only one of the many examples out there.

[HungLikeAHorsefly]

1. What are you looking for here? I disagree with the idea that Feminists reappropriated the concept of toxic masculinity. I don't see that they think it's different than its original definition. Regardless, its original meaning is irrelevant to what people think it means now.

2. I want you to support your implication that it's a mainstream Feminist belief, rather than what a tiny handful of idiots think. You don't have to link every single case, but you do have to make some effort to make people believe you aren't just making it up because you have a chip on your shoulder. And again, I don't remember calling all Conservatives "proto fascists", and you seem to be unable to find an example, which isn't surprising.

3. It's not a common occurrence at all. You're hand selecting an unrepresentative sample. Which is called "cherry picking".

4. I'm not the one making the claim. You went out of your way to write up a Take on this subject, and in it you make the claim that Feminists are outraged by the image you posted you provided absolutely no proof and now you expect me to do the work of proving your point for you? Don't be intellectually lazy, dude.

[HungLikeAHorsefly]

*appropriated might have been a better word here, not sure

[ADFSDF1996]

1.) Because they did distort it’s original meaning. It was for to use as a basis of self improvement for men, not for the feminists to dictate on how men should go with their self improvement. Feminists have no business in determining how men should seek self improvement.

2.) I already did except that you remain stubborn (argument from pigheadedness) and continue to act as if the extremists are a minority. When in fact they make up a majority, which is why I have you statistics that show that most people don’t consider themselves feminists. But of course I don’t think you read the article did you.

3.) It is a common occurrence, you are merely using trying to play it down.

4.) I gave you a link that mentions a feminist calling masculinity toxic yet here you are continuing to beat a dead horse.

[HungLikeAHorsefly]

Thanks for the link - now we're getting somewhere. Now, let me ask you - do you think most Feminists regard this guy as being very influential? Is he a Feminist leader of some sort that inspires millions around the world?

Personally, I've never heard of him before. Checking on Twitter, he's got less than a thousand followers. So I wondered how many followers other prominent Feminists have. Also, who other prominent Feminists are. I looked up a list and looked up Gloria Steinem, Jessica Valenti and Jill Filipovic on Twitter. Each one of them has at least 100x more followers than this dude does. So I'm guessing he isn't very popular.

Do you have anything that supports the idea that this is a common sentiment among Feminists?

[ADFSDF1996]

That’s easy, just look at feminist public figures like Anita Saarkeesian and clementine ford, they are notorious for their misandrist ideology yet clementine ford has around 100,000 followers and Anita has around 33,000 followers.

[HungLikeAHorsefly]

Okay, so what have they said that makes them famous for their misandry?

[ADFSDF1996]

www.michaelsmithnews.com/.../...ne-speech-gig.html

And Anita Saarkeesian was not the one I was looking for although she’s still a joke. The other misandrist is Julie Bindel, she famously tweeted that all men should be exterminated. www.dailywire.com/.../feminist-journalist-all-men-are-rapists-and-should-amanda-prestigiacomo

[HungLikeAHorsefly]

Thanks again for links. Admittedly, those were stupid things to say. I guarantee you the vast, vast majority of Feminists consider Julie Bindel a lunatic, and Clementine Ford has repeatedly said she was joking (although it's not funny at all and there's reason to believe she wasn't).

Now, let's bring it full circle. How does this imply Feminists think there aren't biological differences between men and women? Or that all masculinity is "toxic" (as a mainstream belief)?

The problem I'm having here is that yeah, there are crazies in every group. Do they represent the sentiment of the majority? Of course not.

[ADFSDF1996]

What I’m saying is that “fringe” elements are not just a couple people here and there. They could number in the thousands and are usually the loudest. 4th wave feminists are a fringe group themselves. As I’ve mentioned on many occasions, you don’t need to call yourself a feminist to believe in equality. Most people here in the US don’t consider themselves feminists yet still believe in equality.

Unfortunately there aren’t many decent feminists in the developed world. Most of the decent feminists you’re looking for are in developing countries and even they agree that western/4th wave feminists have gone on the fritz.

If you would like to know what a good feminist is, then look into Christina Hoff Summers. She understands that males are under attack and actually cares about men’s issues. She even wrote a book called “The war on boys”.

[Thatsamazing]

So... the problem here is that your premise is good and correct, and then instead of really addressing the why of it, you essentially just started ranting against "3rd-wave feminists" and "liberals" as though everything you're talking about is some type of weird quasi-conspiracy or something. Like, soy? Really? You're going to talk about the truth of science relating to how males are bigger and stronger and want sex more, but then ignore science and start ranting about soy? You just sound ridiculous, and that's a shame, because for a minute I thought you were really going to have something relevant to say.

[morrowlow]

i've been called an incel at least 3 or 4 times here on gag. it's weird because i don't usually criticize feminism. i guess these days anyone who disagrees with a feminist on any level is considered an incel. great take by the way. i feel the only reason feminism exists today is because so many women have nothing to do. they don't belong to anything so they become part of a movement that supposedly benefits them. these women need something to fight for otherwise their lives would feel empty and they would feel worthless. so when everything has been handed to them they have to make shit up. and if you look around you'll see that the most hardcore feminists are middle class white women in their late 20's and early 30's. not exactly the most victimized group!

[monkeynutts]

Your very articulate, I don't think anyone could call you a misogynist.
I just started reading a book by Joanna Manning, called take back the truth. It's a political criticism on the Catholic church and fundamentalist Christian movement s. I had to put it down because it was so over laden with marxist and feminist rhetoric, she destroyed any valid arguments she had to make.

[esotericstory]

When feminists attack masculinity they adopt a strategy that's been historically far right wing. That strategy is to rally around a common enemy. Jews, gays, migrants, etc. For feminists its toxic masculinity. Whether its toxic masculinity or "international finance" like the nazis opposed, or whether its the Kulaks like the soviets opposed, it makes no difference. There is an attempt made to organize around an inconcrete common enemy, and the only salvation that can be achieved is achieved by getting rid of that enemy. That enemy is of course so inconcrete that its merely a rhetorical device used for centralizing political power by taking away the independent institutions which are required in a democratic society.

[StupidIntellect]

Love this take! You’re a very intelligent man, anyone who is offended by this must be a feminist.

[No_Archons]

Gen Z to the rescue :D

[StupidIntellect]

🙃❤️

[AuroraRoseat]

Similar to how the Nazi symbol was a symbol for another religion--it takes on different meanings for different groups. I don't see how something "toxic" can be seen as self-improvement though. Interesting diction.

Also, toxic masculinity (as it pertains to feminism) is speaking about forcing men to live up to unjust and unfair ideals in which they might not desire. It doesn't matter if men have denser bones or more muscle mass--if they don't want work out, there shouldn't be an unjust expectation to force them nor should the be demeaned for it. That is the point. If a man wants to abide by toxic ideals that demean his sex, that is his choice. But there are many men who don't want to live by cultural norms that can be detrimental. That should be a choice as well. Instead, he is shamed by both men and women for desiring to be different.

It sounds like you're talking out of ignorance.

[ADFSDF1996]

You just proved my point. The Nazis gave the swastika a bad name in the same way the feminists have the phrase “toxic masculinity” a bad name. Who exactly do you think you are in determining what a man should or shouldn’t do. If a man wants to get muscular then so be it, it’s none of your business.

[AuroraRoseat]

I didn't prove your point. What I said--and what you should have comprehended--is that multiple ideologies use similar words in different contexts.

When did I say that I should determine what a man should/not do? I said that was up to the men and that no man should be demeaned for doing something or not abiding by something that he has no desire to.

You clearly didn't read or comprehend what I've said. You don't have a point--what you have is ignorance.

[AuroraRoseat]

*similar words/symbols

[ADFSDF1996]

There you again, proving my point. Allow me to dumb it down for you. Imagine someone taking the melody of your favorite song and adding hateful lyrics, would you be okay with that?

You are implying that men should be more effeminate by calling traditionally Ann’s biological masculine traits “Toxic”.

I read everything you said and I know it’s a bunch of nonsense.

[AuroraRoseat]

1) Such blatant ignorance... lol. You read it. Did you comprehend it? No. You even failed to acknowledge your foolish attempt at blaming me for what I didn't say (in your first response).

Also, nowhere did I imply that men should become more effeminate. What I have said and will continue to say throughout your foolishness (because that is what it is. It's uneducated and sad) is that men have the right to be whatever they want to be despite their biological beginnings and despite what culture or society says.

2) Suppression of positive emotions.
Encouraging violence and anger.
Promotion of archaic gender norms/roles that subjugate men who do not want to abide by it.

This is what the current masculinity is and more. This is the toxic mindset that afflicts men today.

Those biological traits have nothing to do with it. The issue is the sociocultural aspects of masculinity which uses such biological traits (and various other variables) to ensure dominant men's status and oppress other men and women.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4706037/

3) I feel like you're wasting my time. You are willing to believe whatever you want to believe without being open-. I'll continue to research and help others see how society is not beneficial to any sex.

Have the last say.

[ADFSDF1996]

1.) Whelp, can’t dumb it down for you anymore.

2.) Shaming traditionally masculine traits is enough to assume that you want men to be more feminine. And don’t give that nonsense of only men having negative traits, because women also share those traits as well. So it’s unfair to blame it all on masculinity. Why not just call it toxic human traits, instead of lumping all the blame on men. And don’t shed your crocodile tears, if you truly cared about men’s issues then you wouldn’t be trying to force your agenda onto men.

3.) What’s wrong with defensiveness and aggression? Men need to be aggressive to defend themselves and their loved ones. Excessive passiveness means allowing the world to stomp on you. Nobody is saying that men should be rude, abusive and cruel. What I’m saying is that there is nothing wrong with men standing up for themselves.

4.)*sighs more pseudoscience. Biological traits have everything to do with masculinity. Denying that there aren’t masculine biological traits and feminine biological traits is as ridiculous as denying that the sky is blue.

6.) Indeed, you are wasting my time by promoting misinformation.

[Wowgirl30q]

Nooooooo more crying menn nooooo