Many men complain about the OkCupid study that found that men rate women as much more attractive than vice versa.These men say that it's because women are more shallow, but I say it's because of the opposite: Men care more about a partner's appearance, and women know that, so they work harder when it comes to their appearance. Since they work harder, OF COURSE they'll be rated as more attractive.
This is the same reason many women will say that gay men are hotter than straight men: gay men, seeking to attract men, put more effort into their appearance than straight men, who seek to attract women, who care less about looks.
It's also why lesbians are often seen as less attractive than straight women. Lesbians don't need to put as much effort into their appearance because they're seeking to attract women, who care less about looks.
Men expect their quick selfies to be rated equally as attractive as women's pictures that women spend time into looking good for?
Those are my thoughts. What are your thoughts on why women rate men as less attractive than vice versa?
I have no idea
I agree with you. It's because men put less effort into their appearance, so they're rated as less attractive.
I disagree. It's because women are too picky when it comes to looks, and they should lower their standards.
I think it's a combination of women being picky, & men putting less effort into their appearance.
I think it's because women are just naturally better-looking.
I think it is for another reason.
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Lol @ how many boys on the poll are saying that women should lower our standards and be satisfied with guys who spend no time on their appearance. Meanwhile, guys get to date people who spend a lot of time on looking good. How fair is that?
Why do you think women rate men lower in attractiveness than vice versa?
Traditionally, women have always competed to get the highest-value men they can attract, which would have a direct effect on the lifestyle they could expect to enjoy, and the safety and security they would likely experience. Despite feminism, women are still taught to do this - by their moms, by movies & TV, and by peer pressure.
But through the 60s, it was the expected thing to get married, with nearly 90% of people being married. This took the vast majority of people out of the dating pool, and more-or-less forced people to accept a partner at their own Social Market Value (SMV). If you were a 6, you were likely to end up with a 6, etc.
Today, fewer and fewer people are marrying, and even those that do fail the majority of the time, so a massive amount of people are single that wouldn't have been 40 years ago. There is no longer the social expectation to marry, or the alienation of those who aren't.
So, today, with many more higher-SMV men being single, women across the spectrum pursue those men (instead of men near their own value). These women realize that they can SEXUALLY attract these men, and they often confuse that sexual interest as potential romantic/relationship interest - assuming that if those high-value guys will sleep with them, then they'd be in a relationship too. They don't realize that while guys may bang women who are considerably lower-valued than they are, they almost never
DATE such women - generally dating only women at their own value. Still, lots of women believe that they can reasonably expect to land a higher-value man just because they can sexually attract them, and that's led to their skewing their perception of what it takes to be attractive to be much higher than is realistic. A number of studies have shown that women believe that 80% of men are "below average" in attractiveness, and that's not limited to photos on social media, but also men they see in person in their lives. That clearly shows that perceptions are very, very skewed.
Very good analysis indeed. I've spotted that myself with regards to women confusing wanting to sleep with them (which I wouldn't anyway), with wanting to date them.
I don't think it's that women are more shallow but that they're more picky.
Women have many more options than most men. Men are most often pursuing and being rejected. If men and women equally want relationships then why is there the discrepancy.
I'd find it hard to believe that women are biologically unable to approach males.
If I think of another example; what if I was constantly being given job offers that I didn't even have to apply for. It seems like an advantageous position over someone who had to apply for every job they ever got.
I could try to learn how to get a job, but maybe I'd never or rarely get one at all Vs. someone who always had that taken care of by others.
Some say that the tables turn when ladies become old because they're not desirable anymore to males as potential childbearers, even if the men wouldn't consciously think of it that way.
But what is the point of this post anyways, is it to say that straight men should look more like gay men because OP states that ladies think gay men are hotter?
Would I be approached more by women if I tried to look like a gay man? I somehow doubt it.
Doesn't the update prove even more that the relationship power dynamic is female, males wouldn't be asking for a lower standard if they were in control of the standard, they'd just lower it themselves.
Hopefully OP, and others who share that point of view, are also shaming people who want lower standards for women entering certain fields of study and wanting particular job titles.
Okay, here’s the problem. You’re all wrong so let’s stop getting huffy. Men seem to have this strategy since they apparently get so few likes. They just like almost everyone to increase their odds. Now this sounds like sound strategy. Maybe it even works, but it has an impact on what we female humans see on our high tech matchy gizmos. In short: HUNDREDS of MEN. HUNDREDS. Now you’re thinking: wow, women have it so easy. Hundreds of likes. I’d give anything for that. But no dipsh*t. It’s not good. You’re flooding the market. Ever heard of supply and demand? Now I got this app to show me people who were interested in ME, so that I could flip through and find some people who I am interested in. Instead I basically have a list of every user within a 25 or more mile radius. Which is A LOT. (Hundreds, remember. ) Now I have to read your profile, knowing that you idiots didn’t read mine, and try to guess if YOU’RE interested in ME. It takes a few minutes per person. And I have HUNDREDS of people to go through. Yeah I’m pretty much out of stamina at this point. Who wouldn’t be? So I have no practical choice but to scroll through the likes and look only at people who matched 90% or more, who’s first photo doesn’t scare me off, (Uh huh superficial, I know it’s not what I was hoping for getting this app) and then discard them dude by dude muttering: “ Trust me, you aren’t interested.” all the live long way. How ‘bout you men do your fair share of profile reading and only like people you actually, real-life like, and who want the same thing? Then, with the significantly reduced load I have the time to read all your profiles and give you the fair shake I want to give you. Please, oh please, oh please, oh please.
So what you are saying is, as a guy, I should make a lot of profiles and make them all like you to increase my chances by having my mugshot appear more in you profile? Got it, gonna go do that now!
That doesn’t make any sense. If you have hundreds of matches to sift through then that means you’re also liking a bunch of guys and “flooding the market”.
Also, your whole perception that men don’t work as hard on their photos or don’t read bios is incorrect. Women still get way more likes with lower quality photos. In fact, most women don’t even follow the rules they set for men when it comes to taking a photo. They tell us, no selfies and to show off activities and interests through pictures. Meanwhile women can post a couple selfies and some mirror booty pics and get instant attention.
Women are blinded by their privilege. The truth is that men are way more accepting of women than vice versa. Men just want a genuine connection while women are constantly judging men looking for the next best option.
Overall the guys commenting on your OP have been very respectful and purely speaking on facts. Your tone is much more conceited as is the tone for many women. Most women commenting are just shaming men. The fact that you framed having tons of matches and messages as a problem proves you have no idea what it’s like to struggle as a man does.
OK, it's true what you are saying, but the reason guys do that is because women are so picky. If they didn't just right swipe everything, they'd never get a match! You are asking them to just give up basically for your convenience. And women are pickier, it's not just in OKC, it's observed in actual studies, as well as an issue in trying to train AIs in beauty. What's amazing to me is women's ability to try and pretend like it's not true! It's not even debatable, there is unbiased data to back it up!
I agree with you completely. Men don't care enough about their appearance, therefore there are much more attractive women out there than attractive men
And these guys are saying women should lower their standards even more haha. So we should be happy with guys who put in 2 minutes of effort into their appearance before leaving the house, whereas women put in 30+ minutes of effort into their appearance.
@Sleeptalk I guess I don't get it. I thought good genetics was simply good genetics end of story.
But I have lately started wondering if women didn't judge men more on how they present themselves with accessories rather than how they just naturally look (perhaps even totally naked and un-groomed).
Sorry sleeptalk; putting in effort is make-up. Clean clothes and teeth brushing is 'General care'. A woman should not judge a male because he does not wear make-up!
It's just how society is believe it or not. Women tend to focus on our looks highly to get a man's attention and we're highly critical of ourselves and I guess that goes into looking for a mate
Men on the other hand might focus more on strength than looks to get a woman I guess
Since you ladies know better what physically appeals to you, in which ways can men put in more effort to look handsome? When you say we don't put enough effort into it, then give us at least an example so we know how to get it done.
@Sleeptalk Ahh, society. My lifelong enemy of arbitrary bureaucracy. You know, I honestly think my life is being ruined by society. My 20's have been nothing but getting screwed over by society itself.
Anyway that's a different topic.
In general, I do not care about style or grooming much and so I don't expect a girl to care either. I practice good hygiene, but I wear whatever clothes I like and do not pay attention to trends or popularity.
Sometimes my choices align with trends sometimes they don't but my choices are never based on them.
If a guy asks for help on how to be what women want they say "you're not confident" if a guy is happy the way he looks "men pit no effort in to how they look and because of that us women are opressed"
@KieranByrne I actually would man. I think this will be the last year I do the family thing. At least until I have my own life going, then maybe I'll come back for holidays.
I was away from gag for a few days. It's not about make up. It's about hair, for example. Hair is extremely important. Guys most often keep it too short - well no wonder, it's much easier to have short hair. It takes hella effort to keep it medium-long and nice styled. Second thing is body and I don't think I need to explain what's attractive here and what's not
Men try just as hard for their appearance. The gym has way more dudes than women. Men also have to earn money since they’re judged for their success. You’re acting like the guys who struggle with women haven’t tried working on grooming and appearance. It’s not that simple. Also, overweight women can still be attractive since men like ass and tits. Overweight men are not physically attractive in any sense. The only attractive male body type is lean and muscular. Men like skinny girls, thick girls, fat girls, short girls, tall girls, and everything in between.
Also dumb, me and other men try and put there best pictures to no benefit. All the guys I know have female friends help them choose pictures. It's completely normal! That is the dumbest theory I could possibly imagine.
The poll is not about women rating MEN it's about women rating the men's profile photos. Like you said Men don't put any effort into their photos therefor will not high marks for attractiveness.
If guys were going to a ladies night at a club and it cost 20 bucks to get in I am sure they wouldn't wear their pajamas... they would look their best. Someone that gets lost in translation when it comes to online dating.
I think a different phenomena is primarily responsible for producing these results:
The way women assess men's attractiveness is pretty straight forward. Because sex is a much riskier endeavor for women, they are biologically inclined to favor monogamy *to a higher degree compared to men* (who are also biologically inclined to favor monogamy). So from a woman's perspective, a man is either attractive enough to spend the rest of her life with him--or not. One bar. Pass or fail.
Men, on the other hand, have different metrics for assessing women's attractiveness depending on what type of relationship they want with her. There are two bars. Bar 2 is much higher than Bar 1. If a woman passes Bar 1, but NOT Bar 2, then she is attractive enough to have sex with, but not attractive enough to spend the rest of his life with. If she passes Bar 2, she is attractive enough for either purpose (or both).
Men's set of standards for Bar 2 is equal in "difficulty" (if you will) to women's set of standards for their only bar. However, because men have another bar, with a lower set of standards, those men who rated women with casual sex in mind, skewed the results down.
I don't think your logical train of thought is coherent all the way through (i. e. women care more, and expect more, but not if they're looking for women, along with the stereotype that gay men are more concerned with their looks). Either way. As far as dating apps go, most men approach them as to what is the standard that they would have sex with, we can set that at 5/10 (which would far more correspond to the average woman, than a woman's standard would apply to average men), then create a even distribution from that point creating the graph you see above in pink. The girls one would be affected in many ways, one of which would be that men in general put less effort into choosing their photos, and they don't have the ability of women to have their friends take "good" pictures of them (as it's kinda gay), then touch these photos up on editing apps. I also think that women's standards are higher on dating apps than they would be in real life, but mens standards on dating apps are a closer reflection of what they would settle for in real life. This is taking into consideration that both men's and women's perceptions are skewed by extremely attractive hollywood stars/ models.
While your explanation may provide some reasonable rationale, overall, I don't think it's quite correct.
The fact is, women and men are stereotypically aroused by different things. Femininity and masculinity. Femininity, associated with beauty, purity, and nurturing. Masculinity, socio-economic status, individuated success, and power.
Let's face it, a lot of women have pretty questionable taste in men, if we're going just off looks. You do often find pretty stunning girls with absolute goblin men.
So women are probably rating on the basis of indicatives of socio-economic power and success. Highly social photos, anything indicative of status, confidence, all the cliches. They're not rating the most beautiful man. Otherwise, I'd have a lot more success on the likes of Tinder ;)
The other thing is that online dating is bullshit. And a lot of women don't really have serious intents. It's just window shopping. Although I don't know exactly how these ratings were calculated, just because a woman swiped an equivalent left, doesn't mean that that man is not attractive. There are so many unconscious factors at play here.
The other thing is that traditionally women were aloof, as the selectors of which ultimate guy they would allow to sow his seed. Whereas man will just fuck and swipe right on anything, low standards, at least stereotypically. This skews ratings even more. Plus online dating can attract pretty desperate and low level men. Again , it's not necessarily a realistic indication of real life.
The other thing is, is that men are far less valued as a general rule. Look at internet behaviour here. Men who supply high quality answers won't get nearly as many follows as a female with a profile pic.
"If you factor in how often guys get haircuts (once every 2 months) versus how often women get haircuts (4 times a year), guys spend an average of $158.90 a year while women spend $104.21. So from a pure haircut standpoint, guys actually spend more on haircuts per year than girls." https://towardsdatascience.com/analyzing-who-spends-more-on-haircuts-men-or-women-a90003e98312
Makeup? Cosmetic surgery? as for hair, you're not including $$$ spent on products to maintain the longer hair that women have. Men get more haircuts so their hair is short, so that they don't need to put as much time & effort into their hair on a daily basis.
I think it’s because most women are at least mildly narcissistic and think more of themselves then they ought to. I remember when I was single I’d see girls whose story was basically this:
Single, lives with parents, , has 3 kids by 3 different dads, makes like $30K a year, 30-50 lbs overweight, 35-40 years old, drives a 15 year old car, is unintelligent, not a good conversationalist, is like 6.5/10 on the looks scale... but has big breasts and won’t settle for anyone.
It’s like ok... if we compared your market value to a Monopoly board, you’d be those dark purple properties after Go, maybe if I was being generous those light blue ones just before jail, and you think you’re not going to settle for anyone? You’re not that hot 18 year old who doesn’t have kids and isn’t a total looser, sorry hate to inform you of the facts. Meanwhile, these are the same girls that expect a fit guy with no kids who makes $60K a year plus, who is like 7/10 in looks, owns his own house, has a 7 inch wiener and knows how to use it, and an iQ of 120. So many girls just like that think that’s what their entitled to because they have a vagina, and literally that’s all the value they bring to the table. It’s like please... all you’re going to get is pumped and dumped or you can settle for the 45 year old guy whose overweight and a manager at Burger King cause that about the extent your value will get you.
So in my observations this is the delusional thinking I see from women. It’s like: “What do you bring to the table?” Your vagina... that’s nice... those are a dime a dozen. 1 out of 2 people on this planet has one. They’re remarkably common and I have no difficulty at all finding one to get into, anything else? No? Then bye.
Answer:the bucket list is just eternally long. And guy standar of beauty is equal from 0 to 10 they just hide it very well. some hot douchbag f theme all one after they other to make there sex trip and fullfil his sex life. after 30 girls start to have a few brain cells comming togetter and they start to look for the good ones but the good ones didn't do sex trip so after trying to make a few thing which never end up to happen because she is jalous he get tired up because she made him feel unhappy to have not enjoy lifes candy so after a few years he tires of and quit because he realise that the profile she made was bs and that she was not bi as bi-sexual but bi-polar. so after getting only complaint and bached on to never be good enough he goes for the real life being solo and take what comes around whitout giving any sht about feeling. All this to say. Girl get it easy get all what they want wen they want it unless they are too dumb to realize it. after knowing that you dont wonder why they dont give a damn about answering a message of a average guy not trying to pull some bs to look like he howns the world. Girl love comfortable liar who can make theme feel like every word of a players mouth is like some shekspear. You know its not bad it only do a natural selection for your self cause those kind of girls who starve and crave bs are so empty and stupid a comversation whit her is like listenning to a boring song you get tired of it really quick. And it tells you a lot. A girl that dont take the time to juge you the right way and who dont give a damn about anything but her self because everything comes to her is just a living nightmare who is not there for you but only for her interest.
yak yak yak. all this fuss over nothing. you can't go round wondering does she like me. An average guy can walk up to a gorgeous woman and be kissing her if he plays it right. PROOF? the best looking woman I ever saw was on a beach in Nassau bahamas... sitting on a towel looking so sad. I knew I didn't stand a chance with her but I decided to walk up and try. I walked up and looked at her and said "you seem like you could use a friend to talk to". she smiled and said "yes I could". we talked for 90 minutes or so and she suggested we go to her rental 100 feet away for a drink. We walked across the street and she poured me a cocktail and made herself one. I learned she and her boyfriend were sailing on his boat approaching Nassau and the water patrol stopped them and said do you have any weapons on board. He said no... but within 5 minutes they found a loaded 38 cal. pistol. They took her and him to the jail and found it was his boat and now he's in big trouble. Police let her go... he went to jail and was sentenced to 3 years in jail. And tomorrow was his release date. anyway I digress. back to the beautiful woman. I had apparently impressed her and she walked over to me... and planted a wonderful kiss on my smacker. we both undressed and made love for 2 hours. all the time I was thinking... god what a lucky guy am I. So here I was... going from YA don't have a chance,,,,,,, to making love 2 hours after we met. SO DON"T let your brain think you don't have a chance with her... instead... be polite and say the right thing. YOU might get lucky ole chap.
I think your "difference in grooming habits" theory has merit but it just doesn't seem like that explains the size of the difference. Are women comparing men to women then? The curve for men rating women is almost a perfect bell curve. This suggests a fairly objective assessment. The other curve is extremely out of whack. Only 7% of men are above average, and none of them are 5 out 5?
Here's an alternative theory: Maybe attractive men are much less likely to use online dating because they have better success by more direct means. Attractive women, on the other hand, might not have as much success in directly meeting men for one reason or another (too many men approach them, too many decent guys are intimidated, etc.). So they are more likely to use online dating than attractive men.
Actually studies show women care about looks just as much as men do. So according to the data its because women are just insanely picky (and that of course makes sense as society tells them that they should be viewed as beautiful and perfect regardless of how they behave or look. They don't need to act feminine to be feminine according to society, they can be morbidly obese and still be "beautiful" etc. With that much ego stroking being overly picky is just natural, they cannot have a realistic view of themselves.).
Nope your just so pathetic you cannot even own up to your own bullshit. I mean your quite literally proving my point with your statement, you think your so much better then every one else and then are using that arrogance and conceit to try and justify. . . arrogance and conceit. I mean men being fit is a lot harder then women, all data shows men are more then happy with average women and most women walk around in pajamas and yoga pants/leggings with their hair just long and straight with no effort put into it and minimal if any makeup. Meanwhile men have to you know, have jobs, they need to make money have a car be assertive say the right words at the right times, make the right moves at the right times etc. etc. Your just so pampered and catered to that you actually have no understanding of the situation at all. The irony is if you had to do what men did, you would have killed yourself long before this point. In fact One woman, a feminist writer, believing how great men had it decided to go under cover as a man. as she put it, when it came to dating she was stunned that men where still capable of loving women and not despising them for how they treated them (as she got to experience your bullshit first hand). So keep being wrong I don't really care (you've always been entitled and delusional, I know its not going to stop now).
One saying in my country says "The man hasn't been born who could please a woman" Women overrate themselves very often, it's part of their extremist nature in this topic. It doesn't change the fact that they fall for less attractive men who arouse disgust in other women. In the real world, if you're tall, not fat, you have hair, you will find always a suitable girl who finds you attractive. Judging of people according to photos is like estimating taste of dishes while watching pictures in a cooking book.
Or maybe it is strictly related to the evolution of brain function and structure in mammals and how the different sexes evaluate social standing and mates and that no amount of bitching either way serves any real purpose
I’d predict that in one hundred thousand years if the same poll was taken you’d continue to see a widening of the attractiveness spread for me and a narrowing for women as the dissolution of gender roles means women can no longer rely on traditional means of gender identification to select appropriate mates b
Do you not know how much work it is to put on lots or muscle and get a 6 pack? You day men don't put enough time into our appearance, but how are we supposed? Would women date a guy who wears makeup, would she date a man who takes as much or as long as her getting ready. I don't spend lots of time on my dating profile photos because they are photos I already have of me actually doing things. You shouldn't really be staging photos for a profile because that isn't the real you. And besides for a man he could spend days getting it just right and he still will ownly get at most a few matches a day. Not exactly worth the time commitment. Girls are just to picky.
Women are fatter and spend considerably less time at the gym. Even married men spend more time exercising than single/divorced women. So I definitely wouldn't say that they work harder on their appearance.
Women simply have the benefit of the society telling every fatty that she is a beautiful queen, which leads to women having inflated preferences due to grossly overestimating their own appearance.
And this is compounded by the fact that most men are promiscuous losers who would dick a dead turkey if it offered.
Men with actual standards don't rate women that highly at all. Actually attractive women are just as rare as actually attractive men.
If you mean work harder you mean they use make up tricks, filters and photo editing apps, then I agree. When I go to the gym though I see 80% men so I wouldn't say women are working harder on their bodies.
I agree that men generally care more about looks. Not caring as much about looks does not mean women don't care about looks though. Look at the contrast of which guys on tinder get matches and you can see that looks matter for girls. The same type of preferring to select people from the top end of the looks range happens with women.
Women seem more picky about looks. This isn't just an online dating thing but I've noticed it with women in person as well. Being more picky doesn't mean that they care more about them.
Historically, women have always been the ones to be pursued and men were doing the pursuing. This created a role pattern were women got to reject almost all but the most desirable partners (in their opinion), so they could afford to be picky. Most men are already happy to just be with a woman, provided she's not repulsive. The flip side of this is that women have always had to put a lot more work into their appearance, since that's the first thing most primal men would notice. It's interesting to note that in times of (economic) crisis, women spend MORE on makeup and cosmetics than they would otherwise. This is because women know how important their looks are in regards to finding a mate. Men have to mostly rely on things like strength, skill and wit to be deemed desirable.
I could be that a lot of men are longer longer interested in women dating and especially marriage why men let themselves go. Since MeToo tons of men have red pilled. I myself I no longer care about dating and certainly not marriage. I am strictly a MGTOW monk for life, millions of men around the world are MGTOW now. As for myself, I do right the opposite of attraction for women. I don't reveal what I make or where I work, nor what I do for a living. I wear common old clothes and work clothes. I don't bother combing my hair most of the time nor shaving. And I drive an old out dated vehicle and keep to myself and I never plan on dating again.
And you might be surprised by how many of those men may actually be MGTOW setting up profiles to prove the red pill is real. I have discovered quit a few red pill testimonies made that way.
You didn't say what they were asked and what they're options were so we can't use it as the truth of anything. But assuming that women rate men less attractive in that place than men rate women in that same place...
I agree that men care more about looks. It's more important when they select a partner.
I disagree that the reason lesbians are less attractive is only because they make less of an effort. They're often not very gifted naturally in that department and they often try to make themselves uglier.
I also think you should consider who goes on that website. I don't know if it matters but these data should be compared with other data.
Since we don't have the questions and answer options we can also argue that women don't know how to answer properly. I'm not saying they're worse than men but it's a possibility.
The Bradley effect shows itself more in women than men - meaning women will say in public what is socially acceptable but behind close doors will do and say something else. You see this in support for Trump. 64% of white women voted for Trump. A great deal of feminists voted for Trump - voting is private and no one sees you do it - HOWEVER in public most women will say they're against Trump even though the stats show women support Trump en masse. When it comes to dating and relationships women are horrendous liars and hypocrites.
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